Presidential Advisor WHO Directly Handled UFO Material- Harald Malmgren- BONUS PRESENTATION

0:15 Speaker 1: It's not not for any who's under send the world out.

0:20 Speaker 2: The world worse.

0:23 Speaker 3: Is it's October of nineteen sixty two, the heart of the Cold War.

0:41 Speaker 4: Images from an American U two revealed that the Soviet Union had secretly begun building missile bases in Cuba, just ninety miles off the coast of Florida. Strategic Air Command was placed in Defcon two, the only time that's ever happened in the history of the United States. Khrushchev and Kennedy both had top military strategists pushing them to draw first blood.

1:08 Speaker 1: We are asking tonight that an emergency meeting of the Security Council be convoked without delay.

1:15 Speaker 4: Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command of the Air Force, wanted to deal a death blow to the Soviets. Amidst this tense backdrop, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara called one of his top aides, a twenty seven year old whiz kid named Harold Malgren, into the situation room.

1:34 Speaker 5: Don't tell them, but your things should happen. Ask them a lot of question your drivers to slow them down, reduce the hint in the room. And here was time to reverse something.

1:46 Speaker 4: Out miraculously, the hail Mary worked. Harold, the youngest man in the situation room, ran circles around one of the most aggressive four star generals in American history, and if I remember correctly, it kind of wrehtorically back them into a corner where you say, what would be your prime target?

2:04 Speaker 2: First?

2:04 Speaker 5: Yeah, I said, there's madness. If you're hitting much, there's no one to talk to.

2:09 Speaker 4: And then that's at that point, right, LeMay storms out.

2:12 Speaker 5: Yeah, no, he he literally signing these papers down. Okay, I'm not going. I refused to run with this.

2:21 Speaker 4: Malmgram went on to become a top presidential advisor for JFK. I'll be ja Nixon and Ford, and the fact that he neutralized LeMay and saved the world is the least interesting thing I'll be discussing with him. You've been dropping bombs on the internet, saying some amazing things.

2:41 Speaker 5: Will he knew all about your clothes. Long before he became president.

2:50 Speaker 4: Harold had been tweeting things that have taken it all seriously alongside his credentials and background. Would wholesale overturn your worldview?

2:58 Speaker 5: He said, these are things that have come down, so.

3:02 Speaker 4: You're looking at like material anomalist material. Yeah, debris. This interview changed my life forever and will hopefully do the same for you. In it, Harold admits to directly handling UFO material that fell out of the plume of a Marshall Island's nuclear test.

3:20 Speaker 6: This is world history.

3:22 Speaker 4: It's the first time anybody of this caliber has ever admitted to handling UFO material directly. What did it feel like?

3:37 Speaker 4: He discusses getting briefed on other world technologies by Deputy Director of Plans for the CIA and chief architect of Area fifty one, Richard Bissel. Malmgrim tells me that Bissele confirmed to him the existence of the Magenta UFO crash of nineteen thirty three in Italy, recently reported on by UFO whistleblower David Grush. He did, Richard Bissell mentioned the nineteen thirty three magenta question.

4:04 Speaker 6: That's amazing.

4:06 Speaker 4: If that's not enough, Malmgrim also implies that he was being tracked by the Majestic Twelve from a young age.

4:16 Speaker 1: Only important birth of talents, not only but all Majessic audience.

4:28 Speaker 2: They have sypote world.

4:32 Speaker 4: The Majestic Twelve is an elite group of military science and government advisors governing the UFO issue that were described in document leaks in the eighties and nineties. But this is the first time anybody of this caliber has ever mentioned that name. You have uncovered collaboration between Nicole and Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown. What source did he get it?

4:54 Speaker 5: Bron quotes intelligence.

4:57 Speaker 4: We get into the Chinese science fiction novel The Three Body Problem, which Harold believes may be the best model we have for the UFO story. It's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech development, thus the whole Yeah, Harold's daughter Pippa would know that she was special assistant to President Bush and on his National Economic Council. It's now public knowledge through how put Off that George W. Bush contemplated UFO disclosure with his national security advisor Stephen Hadley.

5:30 Speaker 6: As Pippa relayed to me.

5:32 Speaker 4: A lot of these high level disclosure discussions revolved around one particular book, a Chinese science fiction novel called The Three Body Problem, which became mandatory reading among many high level national security advisors in the United States.

5:47 Speaker 7: And to fast forward, spending time with my own father, Yes, and discovering that he's been involved with this from the earliest days.

5:58 Speaker 4: Finally, we discussed secret science going on at sensitive Department of Energy sites across the country, Alan Dulles, the director of the CIA, the Italian mob, secret societies, the JFK assassination, and how all of these might relate to UFOs.

6:14 Speaker 5: The relationship needs to be uncovered between England's father Hangleton and the Knights of baltaon Wow.

6:22 Speaker 4: Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death?

6:27 Speaker 5: Do I think so?

6:29 Speaker 2: Yes.

6:30 Speaker 5: I think it was probably the number one issue.

6:37 Speaker 6: In many ways.

6:38 Speaker 4: Malmgren was sort of a forest gump of global elite politics.

6:42 Speaker 5: We lived for me, found me in the crowd, brought me and introduced me into Putin. No I knew enough to realize that that was not an accident omitting.

6:55 Speaker 4: It became clear to me in the midst of this interview that Harold was part of a much deeper intelligence network that we barely scratch the surface on.

7:03 Speaker 7: You are now part of a network of people. It will be known that you've been blessed.

7:10 Speaker 4: If I had a choice, I would have spent weeks with Harold, going deep on his vast knowledge of UFO's deep politics and global power structures. Unfortunately, a day after our interview, we had to rush him to the hospital. That hospital visit ended up lasting a few weeks, culminating in his tragic passion. But when I was back in Austin, Harold insisted on speaking to me on the phone.

7:40 Speaker 6: To follow up.

7:42 Speaker 4: His vitals on the cusp of failure. Just three days before his death, he revealed even more to me, things that will make you further question your reality.

7:52 Speaker 2: If you asked me, did I have a purpose? Yes?

7:59 Speaker 4: In this final courageous interview, Harold Malmgren transcends his earthly oaths and adheres to a higher godly principle in one final act of service to humanity, one that may end up being just as consequential as saving the Earth from nuclear catastrophe. Without further ado, please welcome this week's American Alchemist. May he rest in peace, Presidential advisor and international peacekeeper, the honorable Harold Malmgren.

8:39 Speaker 2: Maybe interview meet.

8:52 Speaker 4: Harold. It's Jesse good Man.

8:56 Speaker 2: How are you?

8:57 Speaker 6: Is the more important question?

8:58 Speaker 4: You scared me last week.

9:00 Speaker 1: I'm having explain that by I am how I happened.

9:10 Speaker 2: To be Oh, I just know that.

9:19 Speaker 4: Well, I'm flanked by greatness and and and just honored to be here. I'm here with doctor Harold Malgram, who was a presidential advisor to for different presidents JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford, among various other amazing accolades. You helped stop a couple of global crises, if we're going to get into that. But I think for the purposes of this conversation, you've been dropping bombs on the Internet and really saying some amazing things that deal with the nature of reality non human intelligence UFOs or as they're commonly referred to now UAPs, and inform briefs that you've gotten on the subject.

10:01 Speaker 4: And so I couldn't be more excited to be speaking with you now about all this. And we also have doctor Pipple malm Grim, who is equally amazing, and she was a special assistant to George W. Bush on his National Economic Council. She's written a few great books. I recommend you you all check them out, and she's going to be joining us for this conversation as well. So I'm honored to be here with both of you guys.

10:24 Speaker 7: Thank you so much. For having us.

10:26 Speaker 5: Absolutely, I'm because I've watched your root. There's several people, and you've done an amazing job. The most looking in my mind is your interview with Matthew Pines.

10:42 Speaker 4: Well, that means so much. Matthew Pines makes it easy. He's one of the smartest people I've met and has a really interdisciplinary understanding. He can go from physics.

10:52 Speaker 8: I'm not a practicing physicist, it's not my job, and I'm trying to like familiar as.

10:56 Speaker 9: Myself with Garrett Liasy's stuff, with Sabina stuff, wolf from and Jonathan Garard.

10:59 Speaker 4: But you can also understand the minutia of Washington and how it works.

11:03 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's why I like him. Yeah, he's unusual.

11:07 Speaker 4: He is very unusual. So you ended up known as one of Robert McNamara's whiz kids quote unquote and just this kind of child prodigy. But you grew up on the other side of the tracks, and so I'd love to hear just a little bit about your childhood.

11:25 Speaker 5: Well, I was burned up burning in the middle of the Great Depression, and my mother and father were immigrants from Sweden. We lived right by Arrogans at Bay, just Atletic and I was just turning seven. My mother said, well, this is the day we have to start working. So when you come home from school, I'm sure your daughter of the moor and bring home do let's be run rationally at don't try to meet rush. So I learned to use the boat, learned the fish. To learn them, you get traps. They even had lobster traps, dig up shelfish.

12:15 Speaker 5: So every day brought home something. It became second nation. Sometimes I had to stop and pick up an ice, big piece of ice because we didn't have refrigerators heavy. I was still little anyway. When I was thirteen going on fourteen, just before my fourteenth birthday, my father was had found work as a restoration specialist and we restored old mansions and in Newport, around Boston, Piculing near Cambridge, and we were working on this big house. He said, can you help me, it's a so and so I was working with steel wool and some kind of solution part clear all of panels, and this big gentleman came in the room and said, little young man, what are you doing.

13:19 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm I'm helping my dad. He just sit down talking to me, and that was a little bit unusual. Why why does he want to talk to me anyway? Me talking your money, doing the school, but you're learning. About two hours later, my father and said, I wanted to take this boy out of your school. I wanted to come in September and matriculate in my sheep and with him in full scholarship. Oh four a year. I'm not sure he used the full four years with him. Usual needs were hu internship, you don't have to bring by summers and it all goes well.

14:09 Speaker 5: We'll take him all the way to the right of the school. I said, I'm not ready to name home, and he said, listen to me. I'm really offering a whole new life. He said, yeah, but I like my life. But how he said he was president of m I T. And I didn't know then the whole history, the large role he played in the session World War. I think he was in terms of the World Production Board at some point.

14:45 Speaker 4: So this was Carl Compton who was the sitting president of m I T, which allowed him, uh, he had the power to.

14:54 Speaker 3: Yea.

14:54 Speaker 5: So we ended up friendly. But he said, you talked about things that at the very friends here of.

15:05 Speaker 4: Things, and you at that thirteen or fourteen.

15:10 Speaker 5: Yeah, he said, you stung me because you brought up But it's a photon. Why don't we understand it? Why why we had a picture of it? Uh huh, we have a picture of everything else. No proton, I said, I told her about it, and told her about I didn't know inside the level it I just happened. So I said, it's something that our perends in interaction with something else. Probably know the poton and probably it's in posts and probably there doesn't matter how far apart. It's just that interaction. But you can't get a picture of it cause those posters are so too fast and designs.

15:51 Speaker 5: There's two different things. Probably it's more than two, probably as many. And that's the problem that you're trying to get something specific but it's not specific. And he said, no, it's not that. So you don't understand. You haven't mind your same beyond. But in the biggest minds, I said, yes, but I'm not ready your home home.

16:26 Speaker 4: Malm Grim displayed knowledge of physics concepts with Compton that he wasn't supposed to, not only because he was too young to know these concepts, but because they hadn't even been proven experimentally. Yet entangled photons are considered a single system in quantum mechanics, meaning that even when separated by large distances, they instantly affect each other's states, essentially acting as a single unit. They also conserve quantum properties with respect to one another. This is now commonplace knowledge, but Malmgrim was saying this at the age of fourteen in nineteen fifty and while entanglement as a concept was predicted by Einstein and his colleagues in nineteen thirty five, the treatment of entangled photons as a system was only made explicit in the sixties and seventies with Bells in equality theorem and with the measurements of physicists John Klausser.

17:19 Speaker 4: So how did young Malmgram understand this concept at fourteen as a poor painter's son.

17:28 Speaker 7: There's a bit of a backstory, and part of my job in the interview is just to pull out some of this background that led to my father's extraordinary career. But the key was, before you met Carl Coompton, you'd written to the Atomic Energy Agency asking for background on nuclear physics, so you'd at that age already read an immense amount.

17:53 Speaker 4: Can we show some of that correspondent. Yeah, that we have this is amazing. This's here the control of atomic energy. So this is what they sent back.

18:03 Speaker 7: Yeah, not only that to you genetic effects of atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

18:10 Speaker 4: See, that's really interesting. They were really interested in that, the genetics stuff. And you have Debt lev Bronc is written about here. You know, det Le Bronc was the president of the Rockefeller Foundation, but he was also president of Johns Hopkins who was rumored to be on this quote unquote Majestic twelve and do autopsies on non human intelligence bodies and so. And then you had all these studies going on at the time, like the Cambridge Labs where you had a polaroid founder and a bunch of these guys studying human genetics with respect to radiation.

18:44 Speaker 4: And Annie Jacobson has uncovered a lot about Area fifty one where they were doing a lot of you know, human genetic experimentation visa V radiation as well.

18:53 Speaker 7: And again some of these photographs are quite extraordinary. And when it came across them in Dad's old files, like what the heck are these?

19:01 Speaker 2: Wow?

19:01 Speaker 7: And they're from the Atomic Energy Commission in their photographs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

19:09 Speaker 4: These are Geiger counteries.

19:10 Speaker 2: Is that right?

19:11 Speaker 4: You were telling me last.

19:12 Speaker 7: Night this is Hiroshima credit the US Air Force.

19:15 Speaker 4: Wow, this is amazing.

19:18 Speaker 7: So that's why he knew a lot at that age. And Carl Compton starts to register the president of my Tea that he's got this kid who's basically holding the paybucket for his dad, and he knows a lot about photons, and so I think that's where this began. He was identified at a very early age, Yes, as someone with a very particular proclivity. Yeah, and then fast forward, because you know, I looked at my dad's career. I look back and I'm like, how the heck did you end up at age twenty seven being the joint liaison between the Joint Chiefs and the President of United States National Security Council under Bob McNamara and JFK, just as the Cuban missile crisis is the beginning.

20:09 Speaker 7: And you know, Dad has an amazing story to tell about what it was like to be in that room as the decisions were being made, and he played a really critical part in preventing a nuclear catastrophe.

20:24 Speaker 4: That's so amazing.

20:25 Speaker 7: Which is a story I think you should tell.

20:27 Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't wait to hear. But clearly you had been tracked at a young age. I mean, this is a letter that you're receiving from Oakridge National Labs and it's atomic bomb engineering. So it's clear that they are like, Okay, here's this whiz kid. Let's give him a limited information set, see what he can do with it, and maybe have some sort of initiation path. How you almost, you know, serendipitously and miraculously wind up at Carl Compton's house holding a paint bucket. I don't quite know. I do can't explain that.

21:01 Speaker 6: Who is this Carl Compton? Well.

21:04 Speaker 4: He served as the president of MIT from nineteen thirty to nineteen forty eight. During that time, he also served on Franklin Delano Roosevelt's National Defense Research Council and worked closely with Van Var Bush on federally funded scientific research for the promotion of American military supremacy. At MIT, Compton was heavily involved in the famous rad Lab in its development of American radar. His top technical aid was John Trump. If you recognize that name, it's because John Trump is the late uncle of our current sitting President Donald Trump, and John Trump was charged with investigating tesla's files that were confiscated by the FBI to see if they'd confer any tactical warfare advantages to the United States.

21:49 Speaker 4: One of Trump's last interviews was also featured in a documentary on Thomas Townsend Brown's Philadelphia experiment.

21:55 Speaker 10: And I was particularly looking for something which would be evidence of a secret weapon, which was a matter of concern to the United States.

22:07 Speaker 4: But I digress for the purposes of this conversation with Harold. Carl Compton pops up in UFO history twice. First, you have Robert Starbacker, former head of Washington National Labs, also one of America's premier nuclear scientists. Starbacker is famously on records saying that UFO secrecy is classified at two levels higher than the hydrogen bomb. But Starbacker also told nuclear engineer and UFO researcher Stanton Friedman that none other than MIT President Carl Compton was briefed on UFO technology at Right Airfield in nineteen fifty.

22:45 Speaker 4: But there are more UFO touch points for Compton. Another researcher in California named William Steinmann had been corresponding with Fred Darwin, the former executive director of the Guided Missile Committee for the DODS R and D Board from nineteen forty nine to nineteen fifty four. Darwin listed these names as involved in a special committee on flying saucers at the highest level, doctor Van var Bush, doctor Lloyd Berkner, doctor Robert F. Reinhardt, doctor Eric A. Walker, doctor John von Neuman, and one doctor Carl T.

23:21 Speaker 6: Compton.

23:25 Speaker 4: Finally, when government transparency researcher John Greenwald used the Freedom of Information Act to retrieve Compton's records, he received a reply back in April of twenty fourteen, quote unquote, records which may have been responsive to your request were destroyed August thirtieth, two thousand and six. Why would the FBI destroy a file on an innocent university professor and why would they have a file on him in the first place? Those are good questions. And how did little Harold Malgram somehow end up holding a paint bucket at Carl Compton's house A couple of years after Harold had written to the Atomic Energy Commission wanting to learn more about the American nuclear program that might be an even better question.

24:11 Speaker 7: Well, and he had gone on to work with Tom Schelling, who was father of game theory, yes, the application to conflict resolution across many different things, but nuclear and working with many Nobel Prize winners, including Sir John Hicks at Oxford. And so I think when Kennedy came in, he knew some of the Nobel Prize winners and he asked them, who's your brightest kid? And Dad's name just kept showing up on the list.

24:44 Speaker 4: It's fascinating. So then, okay, what happens. I so you're recognized by Carl Company, you have this correspondence with the Atomic Energy Commission. How do you end up from that situation to the situation room during the Cuban missile crisis? As he to the youngest person in the room.

25:02 Speaker 5: I'm still finding a reconstruct. Yeah. I was still a human athlete and a really pop student. I was right. I was first, along with another person who later became Chief Justice of the Arkansas State Supreme Court. I had moved from physics to the economic fears.

25:28 Speaker 2: I got.

25:29 Speaker 5: I have my parents need help and I need it older, and I need to do something. He makes money. Economic sounds like money, So I got a grant from Yalder. You going somewhere, and I wanted to go to Oxford as a dream, and I went there. Many found in love with that, and I didn't really study anything specifically. I went to everything and and then I met a lady there who is American, and those things happen, and you, I'm pretty attached. And I came back from after my run. You rent to Harvard and after I was partnering way through the first term and McGeorge Bundy, whose Njean, had me in.

26:25 Speaker 5: He said, and we hear you're you're thinking your leaving and you're back to Oxford. But we want to offer you something special. We will give you three years, all the expenses in flooding summer, and all you have to do is write a book. You don't have to attain any classes. If you write the book, we longer certainly publish it and that will be your PhD. Yeh, So that's a great deal, said, He said, a great deal, And I said, yeah, but my brain was somewhat excited by this girl. But also Oxford offered me.

27:11 Speaker 5: They said, just come here, but we'll take care of you. You can do your PhD here, And so I did that.

27:21 Speaker 2: Married.

27:22 Speaker 5: That girl was my mother, and you know there's always an element of frailty in unexpected ways in taking care of my mail. But at arpend, Sir John her decided well, he and his wife invited me to dinner, and she explained she was a public finance expert. So she decided to explain to me her husband felt I was an original thinker and that they only come alone once in twenty five and thirty forty years. She said, at Yale you went deep into mathematical economics. So I told my husband that you got to convince this young man who just dump all that mathematics in the storage said and started working but fundamentally at behavioral economics.

28:33 Speaker 5: And he didn't remember the first paper I gave him. It was Billy a moment of insight. I gave this paper, nine pages, roughly full of math. He said, this looks very interesting. We come back next week after I've read it. Came back next week, he said, don't sit here in the student reception room, coming to my inerchambers. Sit down here by the fire. I thought, is this bad or good? And I began to inflate. He really thinks I'm good, he said, but you know it took me the entire week to find it out. How many people of my caliber do you think in your lifetime we're going to spend three or four days of your time.

29:24 Speaker 5: I've had no time trying to understand you, he said, I think this is not the way to make part of us.

29:34 Speaker 5: So instead, it's near the end of term. I'm going in a home with big amount of the humvens decline and full, which is in several volumes. Read everything you can before me. The vacation to her.

29:51 Speaker 4: Is the kind of fall around.

29:53 Speaker 2: I get it.

29:54 Speaker 5: So I came back. He said, but if you learned, I said, I only out doing something chapter and whatever, And he said, it's not bad. The reason I wanted you to read that a dead run is because you have to know how it was written. Gimmons didn't do it break by brick. He wrote it a dead run from his mind. He said, you got to learn who do that? You have plenty to say, you know how to say it, so write it that way. Don't stop to see if you can fit it to some model. And so we had a marvelous experience. And then soon afterwards he said, the people you should meet, so some of the best people that Cambridge came to see me, famous names, and then he said Higher free from Higher.

31:04 Speaker 5: I persuaded him to come to Oxford and media, so he came. I spent time with him. For me, you know, it wasn't being I knew where he was. It was very impressive. And then on another occasion, there had been a big debate in the nineteen twenties going into the theories between Moon being by nisus On behalf of the Austrian capitalism economists and ecomun a central planet and the opposite point one meaning was Osfield Langer as fill Lavia came to Osford, I haven't dinner with me. We had a fight centralization or manic do grains itself because you restrict everybody from innovation adaptation.

32:06 Speaker 5: Once you do that, there's no change.

32:09 Speaker 4: So you would be more on the Austrian school side. Okay, I am too.

32:16 Speaker 5: Yeah.

32:16 Speaker 4: Well, although I'm far inferious, I'm still the same.

32:21 Speaker 5: I'm totally innvinced that China a lab speakau of over centralization. Anyway, by the way, in the nineteen eighties I was in China. There's some kind of sr I.

32:39 Speaker 4: Meeting Stanford Research institute.

32:42 Speaker 5: And they invited me alone. And the senior Chinese is very interesting this years later, so can we have dinner with you alone? Okay? Why not? So three of the most senior if you having competially, we had learned to him we know about your work on centralization. Really, how do you know about had your thesis translated? And we talked to I feel that and some other people. We had an argument, I said, over a centralization moving bringing your destruction. It's some impossible. It's two be the manage anyway.

33:34 Speaker 5: So going back from Oxford, I finished up there and there was bedding more like an NBA or National Football leam bidding your graduates. So MRT and Stanford and however and some others. Princeton offered me a post and Coroneau said, real trump, the others will offer you a new chair just in down now, so you will you can bypass the normal process of seven years and assistant professor and associated professor and mentioned you can start at the top. Okay, I'll ave up. And I came through Parnell with Pipper's mother.

34:34 Speaker 5: Pipper was born in May of that year, and we were living in the house and namberkof the Russian author. Wow, he was on leave and I at least from.

34:49 Speaker 4: Him in Ithaca, New York.

34:51 Speaker 5: Yeah, wow, Yeah, it was an adventure and he was something impressive. I mean, all these fortunate developments happened in my life.

35:02 Speaker 7: By the way, these also became clues for me later because I realized Nabakov was I said to be a CIA asset and was used to help use literature as a means of propaganda. And you know, there are lots of stories about the intelligence agencies using doctor Chevagos as a medium for fomenting opposition within the Soviet Union, And so I'm kind of like, how the heck do we end up in Nabokov's house? And maybe the answer was that, you know, there was already at that time an intelligence world that you know, in later years because of dad's work in nuclear negotiations, that again maybe he'd been kind of identified early on.

36:00 Speaker 7: But I would love for your dad to just dive into You are in the situation room, you are down to the last three hours before you all think that you're hitting the nuclear god button, and can you just describe what was it like in that moment and how did you have vert the nuclear crisis.

36:26 Speaker 11: A strict quarantine on all offensive military equipment on the shipment to Cuba is being initiated.

36:33 Speaker 5: I was a point that there'son between mac number and make sure Bundy and the JFK. I mean pretty pretty job.

36:45 Speaker 4: Mcnamary's secretary of Defense said the JAB.

36:48 Speaker 5: And so all right, I'm there. I'm wondering what I'm going to work on. And suddenly the human missidver prisis unposed and I get a call and Bob brunts you to work directly with a smaller room in the war room. I said, what's the war room. It's where the generals meet. Decide you no, yo, because they have the weapons. Meaning white House doesn't happen.

37:22 Speaker 4: And says is Bob mclaman. He wants you to meet you.

37:26 Speaker 5: Bind me to be there in that room as his guy. They would know him his guy. And then I said, and then that can be easier to hear from this young sport. Don't tell them what you thinks should happen. Ask them a lootic questions your drivers to slow them down, reduce the heat in the room. Everybody can work. Come and if you just keep out I've seen questions and make them think you'll be surprised how far that goes. And it buys us time. It takes the pressure off from them because there are some people in that group.

38:16 Speaker 5: I didn't realize it was cursedly made. They're worried about who runs to go ahead and punished Russia for even trying. So so he gets started in that and after a few days got used to the group. They get used to me. They didn't ask you to get the coffee. They treeing me like okaymbrilong there And I didn't say anything that made them. I didn't talk down to them and asked them how you know, how's your wife today? To talk? And we got to them last hours, roughly four hours when JFK's home. Whose job?

38:59 Speaker 5: We put a quarantine around Uban. If you, if you're one of your ships brief through the quarantine, that will be an act of rule and we will take action being specified. And among the generals there were arguments, what should we do? Do we take out the missiles that are in human? Now? We don't know whether Summer armed or not. Do we know that they have the ability to do more than we see? Might they start World War three in order to take you got to step ahead. This was the time of mutually assured destruction.

39:51 Speaker 5: It was like really terrifying in some things. And so we in that final hours waiting to see if they were gonna stop or not, and there was communication going on. None of us were tribute between her show and JFKM. And there was one additional element the history books have omitted. The Russian ambassador

40:23 Speaker 5: Dobrinon he arrived that year in Washington. He was unique. He wasn't a typical diplomat. He was a member of the Central Committee in Moscow. They sent him to Washington to as the highest ranking politician in Moscow, and in that position he was able to himself for it with the top people in the Central Committee and anyway in the in those final hours, agutation level was high. We all sat down after somebody had coffee break and one of the seniors in generals sent a signal them we didn't have cell phones, and Age came in said, I mentionined to call Mary, Why tell you load the car, get everything ready to go, and drive as fast as you can to Maine to our country place and then let's resumed them gentlemen.

41:40 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's like literally, Mary, take the kids get out of here right, like we're about to be at the end.

41:46 Speaker 4: Okay, And this is the.

41:48 Speaker 7: Bit Dad, where it's so important that it's Curtis on May who wants to drop.

41:56 Speaker 4: So maybe doctor Strange Law wasn't so it was based Yeah, yeah.

42:00 Speaker 5: Yeah, let me finish the story. They in the route. I said, gentlemen, I mean all the thinking of the last ever since the bomb was dropped in in Japan. All the thing is about usually assured destruction. If we go, we both get obliterated. Does this make any sense to any of us in this room. There must be some degree of action less than that. And they all said, yeah, well we haven't explored that. I said, yeah, we don't have any calibration, any idea small steps or ways to convince that we're serious.

42:52 Speaker 5: Might I mean, I mean, if we were attacked Russia. But but but are we really ready for them now? If we attack human and Russia thinks it's the first step that they want to get one step ahead of us by being first actor, well that would be better. We know what they're thinking, but we have to kind of think about that, or we may take some step and they fire a little bit at us. But a little bit makes us pissed off, and then we decide to unload everything. First of the May's in this room saying, my strategic bombers already.

43:43 Speaker 5: You know we had all these missiles, but.

43:46 Speaker 4: His n his nickname is bombs away man.

43:50 Speaker 5: I have no I had no idea would I'm miserable, mean, arrogant guy. This was I mean, I just there was nothing written a lot about him other than he was super aggressive.

44:07 Speaker 4: But is he chief of staff of the Air Force at this time?

44:12 Speaker 7: A commands commands and it's important that you mentioned how he says, my guys, we keep setting them up to the point of no return.

44:23 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right to say. He said in the room to all these other generals and the Admeralds, you can't imagine the morale problem I have every day I send my boys out there. They reached the point of no return where if they keep going, the run out of fuel. And you said I have to order them back, he said, the morale is really they're ready.

44:56 Speaker 4: He's playing with millions of people's lives to to make sure that the morale of his you know, units are okay.

45:04 Speaker 12: President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair must but I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed top, depending on the breaks.

45:13 Speaker 5: That's he said that everyone in the room and lap they didn't want to eyeball. You know, yeah I didn't.

45:26 Speaker 4: Yeah. It's like if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. I mean, he's also for the context for the audience. He was in charge of the five hundred and ninth Atomic bomber Squadron in Roswell in New Mexico that was responsible for the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaka.

45:40 Speaker 5: Well, and he was trying to blow the firebomby in Germany. Yeah, I mean, yeah, his idea enemy is obliterating them. Anyway, I didn't know why I was up there against but you know, it might have scured me, but it didn't. So I said, well, listen, all the rest of us, let's how to play the options. We slowly taught, and then it turned out that we got mured. The Russian stopped the boats at the point of quarantine, and I said, can we agree that we should back off? Who shouts to bang off and curse me? He said, no way, We've got to teach them a lesson.

46:33 Speaker 5: That they messing with us. They have to have something to remember. We need to we need some surgical strikes on Russia. It doesn't have to be population or in but we need to make it painful. And then I said, well, but that needs us back into will they think that this is just the beginning of our again we have I mean simply haven't had a discussion, but you have no communications channel to do with that. It doesn't make sense. It seems to me backing you off for now, and then the discussions continue, however, we avoid this being the preference.

47:21 Speaker 5: Generals agreed and the one that had called his wife push the button his age means and show Mary back the show.

47:34 Speaker 7: But you also made a suggestion that if you hit Moscow, there wouldn't be anybody to negotiate with. And further, if you let it leak to the Russians that you wouldn't hit Moscow, maybe they wouldn't hit Washington. And everybody in the room just love that.

47:56 Speaker 4: And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically backed them into a corner where you say what would be your prime target first? And then they say Moscow, and then you say, oh it was it's Moscow. Then you can't talk to anybody in Moscow. There's nobody negotiate.

48:09 Speaker 5: Well, thus we've been through them because I said, it's madness. You don't if you're going to start something and you need to stop. In that system, there's only one point of decision. If you're hitting Moscow, there's no one to talk to.

48:27 Speaker 4: And then that's at that point, right, le May storms out and gets all angry. Is that is that right?

48:32 Speaker 2: Or?

48:33 Speaker 11: No?

48:33 Speaker 5: He literally got up. I was saying these papers down. Okay, I'm not going I refuse to remember.

48:43 Speaker 1: This man, man, but I.

48:47 Speaker 2: Have to show you I did not book.

48:51 Speaker 4: No, I know you didn't.

48:55 Speaker 5: No, he had, by the way, just before then raise the morning level to jaf Khn too. It was not approved by the president. Really heeded it.

49:08 Speaker 4: Unapproved, He raised the world.

49:10 Speaker 5: He seemed to have that power, I mean the surprised. But anyway, he may have had that power interested anyway. I mean when I looked back and saying, Jesus, you know I stood in the way of this historic bigger bottom, I mean he could have got stood up and tried to beat me up. I mean that kind of person when he stormed vel it relief to the whole room.

49:42 Speaker 5: But it was the first in a series of evident clashes between him and JFK. It was personal somehow, it all radiated this is not about Russians only something some thing was growing on in his head. Bridge learn later about some of the other staties.

50:05 Speaker 4: But well, and you had the Bay of Pigs before that as well, which is this crucial kind of juncture where you know, I think actually Eisenhower kind of left his second term slightly skeptical of Dulles. I think initially he was willing to kind of go along with his plans and JFK didn't quite know what to think. And after the Bay of Pigs, it was really this clear rupture where you had the kind of CIA sort of you know, quote unquote deep state, and they had sort of their own plans and they really wanted to oust Castro and Guevara, and then you had JFK and he felt like this whole thing was just botched.

50:46 Speaker 4: And they send these Cuban exiles in there to kind of create this revolution, but it's kind of half done and the exiles are actually left kind of isolated. Doesn't quite work out, And then you have this rift where you have people like Curtis LeMay and Alan Dulles and complete loggerheads with JFKJFK gets angry, says they want to scatter the CIA to the winds.

51:06 Speaker 2: Residents saying you're gonna bring the CEDI A to one thousand pieces?

51:10 Speaker 4: Is that roughly right?

51:11 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. So this this was the prison, this that tarion to what became a flash of how do we respond when we have an excuse? And here's the main at least let me send my bombers after some strategic facilities of the Russians. But how do you sort out for the Russians point of view? Barber's telling me out, we don't know the trajectory, we can't study that. It's like a missile, you know, once inspiring and reres going so high risk. And I said, this doesn't make sense. So everybody, a really except person may he brew him up when he thought he was gonna domin it.

52:07 Speaker 5: Well, I mean I didn't know that this was a moment of history and that somehow my arguments run. But on the other him, I thought, this is why Maximus, I mean down here.

52:25 Speaker 4: Well, that seems it's such an act of genius to him on his part to call you in as a twenty seven year old, to stagnate these sort of more aggressive, you know, guys like Curtis Lamy. And you think of the way Robert McNamara is depicted in like you know, Errol Morris's Fog of War, just as an example, and he's seen as this sort of warmonger, and this, you know, cuts completely against that.

52:48 Speaker 11: Macnam Do you mean to say that instead of killing one hundred thousand, bringing it that an hundred thousand Japanese civilians in that one night, we should have burned the death a lesser number or none and then had our soul across the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in the tens of thousands.

53:03 Speaker 2: Is that what you're proposing? Yeah?

53:05 Speaker 5: Yeah, No. His instruction, he said, these guys are coming in that room. Some of them have side arms that are fully lowered with the same ye old.

53:19 Speaker 4: Oh the room.

53:23 Speaker 5: Joe said, your house is lower the temperary. Yeah wow, And see if you're stretching out, give us time to reverse something out of what foresight on his part.

53:46 Speaker 12: Johnston Island was the centerment, launch and experimental activity for the nineteen sixty two High Altitude weapon effects testing termed Operation fish Bowl.

54:00 Speaker 4: Running from April to October of nineteen sixty two, Operation Dominic was a classified American program conducting thirty one nuclear test explosions in the Marshall Islands. These tests were designed to study the effects of nuclear detonations in high altitudes in space and near space. One of these tests, Starfish Prime, created an electromagnetic pulse that extended over fourteen hundred kilometers, knocked out street lights, triggered burglar alarms, and caused electrical surges in nearby Hawaii.

54:36 Speaker 4: It also produced an artificial aurora visible from Hawaii to New Zealand, and it even created a man made radiation belt similar to the Van Allen Belt that destroyed multiple satellites. The last few tests of this series were the Bluegill tests, which involved a unique X ray based missile defense system, and Harold was put in charge of doing all of the cost assessments for this test. Tell us about the Bluegill Triple Prime test.

55:07 Speaker 5: Well I arrived in Washington summer of sixty two. In sixty one, there were two high level tests incoming missile and an interceptor fired up to see if they could stop it. Those two tests failed some of sixty two. I arrived and first I'm in the middle of this

55:37 Speaker 5: missirifics and then before barely over, how would you set up a small group? Will you give you the people to devise the outlines of an anti missile system so that we can start anticipating for the future. I said, yeah, that's something that Darker should do with the bastard. And I said no, no, we want is a concise talking back to the anvelope calculation, what should be the elements of it, what would it cost and how much would it cost? But the enemy can upset it. I said, okay, I'm taking on and I got that assignment.

56:30 Speaker 5: I'm taking Holy how this is huge. And they gave me these people in the Joint Seats of Staff, in the Reponsitions Evaluation Group. We am I talking with these guys.

56:46 Speaker 4: Missile defense was a major priority for the United States in the heart of the Cuban missile crisis. While American offensive nuclear capabilities were ahead of the Soviets, the US still didn't have precise ways of defense against a nuclear attack, but there were some novel ideas in missile defense at the time. In nineteen sixty one, the Rand Corporation wrote a report called some New Considerations concerning the Nuclear Test Ban, which highlighted the susceptibility of the us ICBM re entry vehicles to high energy X rays.

57:22 Speaker 13: To say, this is a piece of steel and it's in out space. If you impinge high energy X rays on this side, so what that does is blows chunks off the inside at hypersonic speeds.

57:36 Speaker 4: This novel insight made its way into the operation Dominic Marshall Islands tests. Here's where it gets interesting. These X ray emissions could also take out surrounding UFOs.

57:50 Speaker 5: So I just got that going and as number three in that series in October. If I remember the days, it was while we were busy with Cuba.

58:04 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was during the Cuban missile crisis. Actually the Bluebill Triple Prime, So it was October of nineteen sixty two, right.

58:10 Speaker 5: So I got a report because I'm in charge of this new project, the same report they meant to JFK. Now, if you assume JFK, it was read by McGeorge Bundy, that's his job, and I knew if it must have been read by macimur John McNaughton, the Neeral Council, they were all interactive and almost certainly it will be j because Vice President anyway know and behold they dashed down. I said, I'm puzzled here. And but the report you've give me, you have videos of taking them this incoming missile with especially enhanced X ray projection system.

59:14 Speaker 5: But when you did that, you noticed that there had been some object that had appeared on the screen enjoining Antagon and Loan following the incoming missile down.

59:31 Speaker 7: By the way, can I just interject because for me and I kind of got my dad all up to speed on the whole Why is Congress pursuing non human intelligence? Why are they passing whistleblower legislation? And so when we started to talk about this, so he said, there's this orb around the missile. And I'm like, so, didn't you think that was weird? And I realized that actually, I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them that they didn't They knew it wasn't Russian, they knew it wasn't in those days, it was never going to be Chinese.

1:00:12 Speaker 7: They knew it wasn't a threats. So Dad said, yeah, we called it a tagalong, a tagalong, Like, didn't you ask what it was? And he's sort of replied in such a way that I realized nobody asked any questions at that time, and they were probably encouraged not to ask any.

1:00:32 Speaker 5: Questions when I saw there's jug.

1:00:40 Speaker 4: That's what you would call them tagalongs. Wow, So that it's so casual that you just call them tagalogs.

1:00:48 Speaker 7: I think they were so inured to seeing them, they were like tagalog.

1:00:53 Speaker 4: The UFO nuclear connection was a complete open secret among top military brass in the fifties and sixties. In a nineteen fifty two Look magazine article titled the Hunt for the Flying Saucer, Chief UFO Investigator for the Air Force, Captain Edward J. Rupelt is quoted saying that many of the sightings reported had originated at one atomic weapons related site or another all around the country. In fact, while the Operation Dominic tests were going on in nineteen sixty two, an Avco Mark four re entry vehicle attached to an Atlas eight F missile was being tested at Cape Canaveral in the Atlantic Missile Range in September.

1:01:35 Speaker 4: This is the footage that was taken from that test. At the four minute and forty second mark In the video, an object appears to phase itself into existence alongside the re entry vehicle, which is traveling at twenty thousand feet per second or mock eighteen. The official US Air Force NASA postflight report even states that the object's quote unquote origin or identification could not be determined.

1:02:14 Speaker 6: The very next month.

1:02:15 Speaker 4: After this Atlas test at Cape Canaveral, the Atomic Energy Commission conducted the Bluegill Triple Prime test in October of nineteen sixty two in the Marshall Islands. The point is this was the backdrop for the Bluegill tests, one in which the military, scientific, and political elite in America were well aware of the connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons.

1:02:39 Speaker 5: An then the I mean missile reaction to this blast adverse ray At that moment, the report said, this appeared to them.

1:02:58 Speaker 3: This.

1:03:00 Speaker 5: Device, they called it, I said, the tailor alarm. And then so I got really, I didn't be accurate with shock. I thought, let's find out what that was. And was there a recovery, Yes, the Navy had recovered but Phil tell me about it, Oh, we can't do that. You have need to know about incoming with some and the test, but not about the tailor alarm. Why not just to be.

1:03:38 Speaker 7: Clear, you've caught all the que clearances, right, not something that you've got all the And they say no, you don't need to know.

1:03:45 Speaker 5: Why, Well, I had a blaking besides tops he could know all that stuff. I had president in experience for the highest level stuff that comes to the president. I mean I haven't been you haven't everything. But especially that they gave me a blanket futures cumers for weapons. Why there is a separate because that was managed by the Atomic Energy Commission. There's that was in law suburb but.

1:04:19 Speaker 4: It's it's so interesting because you hear that UFO secrecy was sort of bound up in atomic secrecy and the Atomic Energy Commission.

1:04:27 Speaker 14: The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy in some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting a nuclear secrets.

1:04:38 Speaker 4: And you don't even have access to the UFO staff with all of your que parentsies. Two casey one thirty five aircrafts in proximity of the test were gathering footage. Australian intelligence analyst Jeffrey Krukshank, who's done The most in depth analysis of this test calls the two pieces of footage Kettle one and Kettle two.

1:05:03 Speaker 15: A bright fari object tumbles out within the Nukla fireball.

1:05:10 Speaker 2: You believe that that is some kind of craft.

1:05:15 Speaker 15: Just like the one that was following the atlasite f test, but disarm it was a real warhead.

1:05:22 Speaker 4: You can see clearly from the Kettle one footage of the nuclear blast an unidentified flying object tumble out of the nuclear fireball. The official report written about this test at the time was written by the Flight Dynamics Laboratory at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. The report tries to explain the presence of this second thermal source in the footage quote unquote, there is no evidence to indicate that even the closest pod was ever immersed in the fireball, so it definitely wasn't one of the instrumentation pods on the missile.

1:05:54 Speaker 4: If that's not weird enough. These videos were declassified to the public in nineteen ninety eight. At the declassification review, the Defense Special Weapons Agency, led by doctor Byron L. Ristvet, applied a large white triangle to the footage, sanitizing it right where you can see the object tumbling out of the plume in the Kettle one footage.

1:06:18 Speaker 15: This well known animosity between Los Almas and Lawrence Livermore labs. Lawrence Livermore ran one aircraft, Los Almos ran the other. The reason why the Kettle one footage was declassified and Kettle two wasn't was simply a personal difference in what should remain classified in what shouldn't.

1:06:40 Speaker 4: Then, on October twenty first, twenty twenty three, when Jeffrey Krukshank sent a mandatory declassification to review request to the Department of Energy asking them to declassify this Kettle two footage which had been sanitized, The Department of Energy responded saying that they were unable to locate the footage. They were literally saying they lost the foot of one of their most important high altitude nuclear tests. And maybe all you need to know is that Bluegill Triple Prime is the only one of the Operation Fishbowl nuclear tests where any portion of the released video is still sanitized and classified.

1:07:15 Speaker 5: To this day.

1:07:16 Speaker 2: Sorry, that's classified.

1:07:17 Speaker 4: And tellingly, look at what happened when a Freedom of Information Act request was sent to the National Nuclear Security Administration. Generally around these nineteen sixty two Operation Dominic Tests. The exact request was for all records that quote, unquote, mention or relate to Starfish Prime and any of the following UFO, ap uav AAV any acronym used by the Atomic Energy Commission at the time for unidentified flying objects. The National Nuclear Security Administration responded the letter back in June of twenty twenty two, reads it was determined that an additional review of your case by the subject matter expert with jurisdiction regarding responsive records was required.

1:08:02 Speaker 4: First of all, who are the subject matter experts on UFOs? Second of all, this seems like a tacit admission that there are responsive records that apply to this Freedom of Information Act request that specifically ask for information on UFOs.

1:08:18 Speaker 6: And what about the most.

1:08:19 Speaker 4: Senior official present at Operation Bluegill Triple Prime. If you're a head hauncho and you see a UFO tumble out of the sky, surely you can't just engage in business as usual. While the logs of a nearby Navy ship the USS summit count refer to a SOOPA or a senior officer President afloat being on board the ship, that officer was General Alfred Starboard, the Joint Task Force eight commander of Operation dominic. He was positioned around fifteen nautical miles from surface zero of Bluegill Triple Prime, which is the closest allowable distance by the Range Safety Officer.

1:08:53 Speaker 4: William Ogle, the Los Almost j Division Weapons design Chief, was General Starboard's deputy for Operation dominic Ogle rights that General Starboard left Johnston Island at four am the night of Operation Bluegill Triple Prime. Starboard went from the deck of the Summit County ship to taking off on a jet from Johnston Island in under four hours. There were still very important tests to go, but Starboard apparently needed to leave immediately, maybe because of this successful UFO tag along shootdown.

1:09:25 Speaker 5: Brother. What they said is that your project designation was this, you know, anti blistic misship, but you we didn't anticipate this identified an object, but it's not part of your designation. So I said, that's boots you. So I said, I need to know what you learned. No, I'm sure in different words, that's what came out of the White House to the people running the test, who were under the jurisdiction of the Atomic Energy Commission under Lawrence Geese, who was in charge of all this stuff. He was head of the Albert Querhe division of the Atomic Energy Commission.

1:10:18 Speaker 5: But he was running everything that he orver saw everything that had to do with looks almost and high level tests.

1:10:25 Speaker 4: And he's randomly Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather. The adoption.

1:10:31 Speaker 5: Amazing, Yeah, it explains a lot. Maybe those talked about in some of his earlier reminiscences should reporter. He spent all his summers with his grandfather.

1:10:56 Speaker 4: Interesting, really, yes.

1:10:59 Speaker 5: Your grandfather her firm. Ah. Sorry, I'm sure he has several summers of space.

1:11:07 Speaker 4: There and now he's got blue origin.

1:11:09 Speaker 6: It's so fine.

1:11:10 Speaker 4: It's just another point in the direction that rocketry is not what it seems right.

1:11:15 Speaker 5: So truth have I pressed hard? You know, you have to let me know place. So he said, for that, you have to come down.

1:11:28 Speaker 4: To He pressed hard with Lawrence Geice, and he said, I want to know.

1:11:32 Speaker 5: I didn't know him that I was taking okay.

1:11:35 Speaker 4: But somebody at the Atomic Energy Mission, He.

1:11:37 Speaker 5: Said, you know, I need to know. I'm gonna decide, but I need to.

1:11:42 Speaker 7: Know just just to back up. So you go out to Los Alamos, you get briefed, you meet Lawrence Keys and like literally a couple of weeks later, suddenly JFK, LBJ and their teams are going to Los Alamo. So I asked the question, Dad, how often does a president of the United States go to Los Alamos? So the answers number. So what was so extraordinary that they all suddenly rush out there? And this is what I think. It was a great insight into It was.

1:12:18 Speaker 5: About the tell you alone. That's what they wanted to know about. They weren't all fascinated by the test.

1:12:25 Speaker 4: By the tag along itself. So what did when you came out two weeks before them? What did you find? What did they tell you?

1:12:33 Speaker 5: I met Lawrence Geese. He said, I have this letter saying that I can breathe you. I said, thank you, because I really He said, well, the tests and details are controlled by Naval Intelligence. It was interesting, he said, they don't share everything with the Navy Department. They are an autonomous too. They are most secure than any other intelligence agency.

1:13:07 Speaker 4: It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the eighteen nineties.

1:13:10 Speaker 5: Yeah, I said, just be re beware. The mighty CIA is not under for They approved list to circulate, so I can talry about that in another vacasion. But anyway, so I said, well, but what am I here to find out? He said, well, he reads for some stuffs on his desk. These are things that have come down

1:13:47 Speaker 5: I'm looking at. Yeah, you know there's round rock, you know.

1:13:52 Speaker 4: So you're looking at like material anomalist material.

1:13:54 Speaker 7: Yeah, debris, yeah, by debris or images debris.

1:14:00 Speaker 2: Wow.

1:14:02 Speaker 4: You know what you said to him, Wow, that's amazing.

1:14:07 Speaker 2: I was sold about those.

1:14:11 Speaker 1: Yeah, put this stuff in your hands.

1:14:16 Speaker 4: What did it feel like?

1:14:20 Speaker 2: It felt? Because it didn't feel any same thing though?

1:14:29 Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

1:14:34 Speaker 4: What color was it.

1:14:38 Speaker 2: Of something in spense?

1:14:43 Speaker 4: What's the color of something in space?

1:14:46 Speaker 3: Hmm?

1:14:48 Speaker 2: Depends on the light in the room or the light the camera.

1:14:53 Speaker 4: Was it was it heavy?

1:15:00 Speaker 3: Yeah?

1:15:03 Speaker 2: I mean I picked them up. They didn't. I didn't put them down at em, So I haven't.

1:15:17 Speaker 4: If you had been there without knowing how it was retrieved, would you think that it was at all different than like random rocks or.

1:15:25 Speaker 5: Don't know how it was retrieved? He was, but he said, known this is some of them, He said, I haven't in minds, just you know, there's an examples. I mean, he didn't say it for visitors, but I mean whatever reason he had there did it?

1:15:45 Speaker 4: Did it? Was it emitting alpha, beta, damma radiation anything like that?

1:15:50 Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't know if he he must have known it was safe. I mean, had all of this instrumentation aroom anyway? So I you know, I just what have we learned, because it does pertain to designing a missile system of what kinds of things can interfere them uh or might emulate. We just need to know more who else is studying this, and we need to know about knowledge and other in the other quarters, China or wherever Russia. We feared Russian science more than China at that time anyway, And even saying that this is not the first case of the other unidentified objects or phenomena.

1:16:58 Speaker 5: There's a history. Now, he ain't going to the history with me. He just said, do your research. I said, so you're telling me anyway, But the Navy says, I can't know. Yes, he said, yes, but probably you saw the original. My bet is that that part of the test, the video will have been scrubbed. Which wise, but and he repeated those Navy intelligence there are another They live in their own world. Sometimes they think they're even more powerful than me are, But do.

1:17:43 Speaker 4: They still live in their own world?

1:17:47 Speaker 7: Yes, that's what everybody says.

1:17:51 Speaker 4: There are a few key details of this story that fill in some gaps that Harold relayed to Pippa before he passed. Malmgram confirmed that the entire Bluegill shoot down was an attempt to down a UFO. Malmgram explicitly told this to Pippa, his daughter, and Jeffrey Krukshank. He also told this to Senate Intelligence staffer Kirk McConnell, who I interviewed.

1:18:20 Speaker 8: What Mamgren reported that he'd been told directly by Bissel is that we downed a UFO that was monitoring closely monitoring that test, and it tumbled into the ocean, and that the Navy picked it up.

1:18:34 Speaker 4: So the American military knew they could bait UFOs with nukes and destabilize their flight paths with EMPs. See EMPs disrupt local magnetic fields. It would even locally disrupt the magnetosphere of the Earth. If you're flying at incredible speeds in a UFO, you probably need to use some form of quantum sensing. This would allow you to use the magnetosphere of the Earth in order to navigate birds even do this, they use Avian cryptochromes to quantum sense the magnetic field of the Earth and navigate home.

1:19:09 Speaker 4: This form of precision sensing would be necessary in order to navigate a UFO, so when you disrupt the local magnetic field, you could cause a UFO to spin out, lose control, and drop out of the air. Also, UFO propulsion likely requires megavolt range electricity and extremely strong electric field strength over long periods of time, which would require a power source that far surpasses traditional fuel or batteries. I think UFOs have a nuclear propulsion source. If the X ray induced shockwave from the Bluegill payload would disrupt the plutonium pit of an incoming nuclear warhead, it would also probably disrupt the power source of a UFO.

1:19:52 Speaker 4: The second missing detail here is that when Harold was holding the UFO pieces Lawrence Geist had given him, they seemed to telepathically communicate with him. He heard words in his head when he felt the pieces. This is a very common trope in UFO world when it comes to people handling material firsthand. Malt Grim forgot the exact words, but he felt like they were important and that the material may have implanted ideas in his subconscious. He also apparently thought that this was a test that Lawrence Geiss.

1:20:22 Speaker 6: Had given him.

1:20:23 Speaker 4: He wanted to see if Harold would have this mental reaction to the pieces. Harold apparently passed. Once Harold passed Lawrence Geiss's test and realized there was far more to this taglong UFO phenomenon than met the eye, Malmgrim had clearly graduated from his role as the missile cost assessment guy. He needed to get fully read in. That's when he received a full briefing on other worldly technologies by Richard Bissel.

1:20:54 Speaker 4: Who is Richard Bissell.

1:20:58 Speaker 5: So a few months after of this series of episodes Missile Crisis Los Alamos, Richard Bissell called me up and said,

1:21:12 Speaker 5: I'd like to spend some time towarding you. Maybe Friday afternoons after work would be good. He said, sure. I knew who he was. I mean he was Deputy Director le c i A and he was in the news a lot because he had been the one who helped Strength Works developed the U two.

1:21:43 Speaker 4: An Area fifty one at the time was an atomic testing site, and he thought it would be a good idea to test the U two basically right next door.

1:21:51 Speaker 5: Yeah, so this, I mean, I knew he was at the center of all the scientific technology and stuff. I didn't know at that time. His ill portune was that he was in charge of the invaded Huban Bay of Page operation too. Anyway, you know, I knew he was somebody considerable knowledge and obviously strong enough to run a big part of the empire up CIA. So I said down. He brought a bottle of whisky out and said, we don't have to drink all of my miss He said, I'm telling everyone around you you were one of the risk kads.

1:22:43 Speaker 5: But I was told you were the youngest because you came in a little bit after the others, and also that most of them were four or five years older. But you were the star in terms of ability and the ability to work with the top level of people without fiction. In other words, when that i'm lifeis you know, smart ass? So said, you're almost certainly on a curve where you continue to be at that level.

1:23:22 Speaker 5: So there are things you need to know. And then he went into might have been But it was not only about but mean, it's still make hole in UFOs at that time, but it was about Cia. Operations worldwide become plaxty some times when the President and CI were not working in concert. But it happens when you have a big system like that, it develops the life.

1:24:05 Speaker 4: But so what did he say about UFOs and other world technology? And then what did he say about the CIA is the global nature of their operations?

1:24:17 Speaker 5: Well, you know, but went down something too. They were opposed to anything which threatened their control. And these unidentified UFOs we didn't have the up world yet they presented forces that were beyond CIA's knowledge or control, and they interfered, perhaps with what CIA was doing with private industry. There was a lot of interaction between Luck and Martin and CIA where.

1:24:59 Speaker 4: They would show up around specific atomic testing, or around specific technology development, or.

1:25:06 Speaker 5: Many types of technology development.

1:25:09 Speaker 4: I mean, so it's almost like the UFOs are more it's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech development at the heart of it. Yeah, which is if you read the Three Body Problem by you know this amazing you know Chinese science fiction trilogy.

1:25:32 Speaker 5: I show the movie.

1:25:33 Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like something like that is almost the case. According to Richard Bissel, Wow, yep. And so what does he say? So he briefs you on quote unquote other world technologies that to me belies almost human knowledge of these technologies. Not just like these things are randomly showing up when we're making advanced technology.

1:25:58 Speaker 5: This is real. These f we don't know n these phenomena also we don't know, but the Russians and Chinese and any anyone else knows not itself is threatening. No, at that time, China was not as threatening to us as Russia. We are uh, always overrated Russia in my judgment, and we underrated the Chinese obsession to focus in on something very specific, which was the technology race. And so but anyway, it just wanted me to know that there were all these conflicting how forces of power in play, and that they had influence on leadership in many countries, not just Washington.

1:27:13 Speaker 5: And it tends to run deep into local politics depending on where the interests were. No, he didn't mention Arkansas, but have you flighted back? I probably was on his mind.

1:27:35 Speaker 12: Why am I not on the front page of the paper at Ryan Airport or any other airport with a.

1:27:41 Speaker 2: Load of dope with a load of guns.

1:27:50 Speaker 4: Did Richard Bissell know what was going on all along, that the Bluegill test was actually always intended to be a directed energy based UFO shootdown. Well, tellingly, Harold told Pippa on his death bet and off air that the CIA and Atomic Energy Commission got the very idea of shooting down UFOs with directed energy from an extraterrestrial being that survived the Roswell crash in nineteen forty seven. This being was apparently the sole survivor of that crash. Harold even told Pippa that later in his career he saw the video of this creature being interviewed.

1:28:37 Speaker 4: And there's a direct link between the Bluegill Triple Prime tests and Star Wars, or the Strategic Defense initiative that later took place in the eighties. You see, the Bluegill Triple Prime tests inspired Edward Teller's X ray based Excalibur designs, which formed the basis of Reagan's strategic Defense initiative, popularly known as Star Wars. Star Wars involved a massive network of directed energy weapons for missile defense. It also involved satellite tracking an immaculate constellation, if you will, for UFO shootdowns and tracking.

1:29:12 Speaker 4: This of course begs the question, was star wars always dual use and intended for shooting down and quarantining UAP And if these very concepts came from the sole surviving being from the Roswell crash, it begs the very important question are we involved in some sort of bizarre extraterrestrial proxy war? Ultimately one can only speculate, but it is important to note that before he briefed Malmgren, Richard Bissel had to have known about all of this. Remember, at the time, he was deputy director of Plans for the entire CIA, and he would go on to become deputy director for the entire organization It's number two, so he was likely well aware of this interview of the surviving being at Roswell.

1:30:00 Speaker 4: Bissil also founded Area fifty one in nineteen fifty five, and he'd strategically placed it at the Nevada test site where hundreds of atomic tests were occurring in the early fifties, so we had to have known about the UFO nuclear connection. Bisil likely also understood the secret UFO related intentions of the Bluegill tests all along. But Harold goes deeper. He implies that Bissle knows about this other layer of reality, a form of sort of extraterrestrial exopolitics that needed to be managed by elements of the US government for decades.

1:30:43 Speaker 4: Do you think Richard Bissel sort of knew that you were You were sort of an heir to him in sort of a more spiritual sense or something.

1:30:55 Speaker 1: I'm thin, and he was looking for someone who was some how connection.

1:31:08 Speaker 4: Mm hmm, connected to what.

1:31:13 Speaker 1: Whatever was happening with the world, the forces mm hmm.

1:31:23 Speaker 4: Have you looked have you looked for people like that?

1:31:29 Speaker 2: Yeah? I re about them.

1:31:44 Speaker 4: Yeah. What else did Richard Bissell tell you?

1:31:46 Speaker 5: He said, this didn't start last week. This has been going on. He mentioned in nineteen thirty three, and me, Genzo, he did, Yes.

1:31:57 Speaker 4: Richard Bissell mentioned the nineteen thirty three Yes, that's amazing exactly. That is such corroboration, because that is a highly conflicted, you know account.

1:32:09 Speaker 9: Nineteen thirty three was the first recovery in Europe in Magenta Italy.

1:32:13 Speaker 4: I fully trust David Grush, but that's amazing that there's some corroboration from back then.

1:32:18 Speaker 5: He mentioned it.

1:32:19 Speaker 9: Wow, Italian government moved it to a secure air base in Italy for the rest of kind of the fascist regime until nineteen forty four, nineteen forty five. And you know the pie is the twelve back channel that so that was involved. Yeah, and told the Americans what the Italians had and we ended up scooping it.

1:32:38 Speaker 5: So yeah, he said, this did not begin and I needed to know the background. How did it end up? The Truman transferred that that object in the steps getting there was arranged by Ellen Dallas. But that went back for Pepper.

1:33:06 Speaker 4: Mentioned and he said the steps that Alan Dallas helped with the crash retrieval.

1:33:11 Speaker 7: And remember Alan Dalles and so John Foster Dallas Alan Dallas are twins. And John Foster Dallas is running the os as the precursor to US intelligence out of Switzerland. And I asked, I said, Dad, why was he running it out of Switzerland? How that does that happen? And he said, well, everybody knew that he did it deliberately so that he would be beyond the reach of you.

1:33:43 Speaker 5: Mom, let me explain, after all, this only has been a few years back, when I was still an official

1:33:54 Speaker 5: in the Office of the Trade Representative. Well, it was the principle I was invited by. You know, Switzerland doesn't have any president the leaders revolves around the canton, the leaders, but whoever was the leader of that year. I visited and the government about several matters and they said, well your life to see the office of Allan Dulles when he lived here. So I said, I want to be functioning, beautiful apartment overlooking the river. And we got talking. I said, how do you explain why he chose to be here?

1:34:44 Speaker 5: He said, oh, that's simple. He told us when he got permissioned to maintain a very active office here that as long as he was in Switzerland, no matter Locke had reached him as just something he did that was immediately moral or otherwise in the United States. So he said, he was here all the time, and it was to allow him a free hand and to do the most terrible things that if needed. Okay, that's understandable. He was a freaky guy. Now, going back to nineteen thirty three,

1:35:35 Speaker 5: the relationship needs to be uncovered between England's father Angleton and the Knights of Malta. Wow, because the Knights of Malta said, there's long historical connection with the Vatican and indeed have this special diplomatics. Do you know you can be you can have an international passport for the night I forget to have. It's a something. It's a sovereign state right headingful of people, Yes, but it's all connection with the Beatian.

1:36:21 Speaker 4: According to multiple accounts, including UFO whistleblower David Grush, a disc like object measuring roughly ten to twelve meters in diameter came down near Magenta in Lombardy, Italy in June of nineteen thirty three.

1:36:34 Speaker 9: Nineteen thirty three was the first recovery in Europe.

1:36:39 Speaker 4: Under Benito Mussolini's fascist regime, a total media blackout was imposed throughout the Stefani news agency. Telegrams threatened severe penalties for any reporters who deviated from a government ordered cover story attributing the event to a meteor. Despite the censorship, a special investigative body known as Gabinetto or RS thirty three formed to study the craft, with high level figures such as Mussolini, air Marshal Italo Balbo and Nobel laureate and radio pioneer Marconi believed to have been involved.

1:37:10 Speaker 4: Testimonies suggest that the downcraft and possibly two recovered bodies were taken to the SIAI Marchetti private aerospace hangars for intensive analysis. This secret research group reportedly drew up a nine step protocol to manage the Magenta crash in any similar future incidents. The instructions included immediate site containment, arrests of all witnesses, and thorough disinformation campaigns to quell public attention. Sounds very similar to what happened in the United States after Roswell.

1:37:40 Speaker 4: Marconi, long fascinated by extraterrestrial possibilities, clashed with Mussolini's insistence that the subject must be of terrestrial origin. Some documents and later family confirmations indicate Marconi genuinely believed the craft could be non human. In the late nineteen thirties, Pope Pius the twelfth became aware of the Magenta retrieval, reportedly fearing that any recovered technology might fall into Nazi hands. Once Italy allied with Germany, through discrete channels, the Pope quietly informed the Allies about the craft's existence and storage location.

1:38:13 Speaker 4: This back channel intelligence set the stage for the Office of Strategic Services, America's premier wartime intelligence gathering program and the predecessor to the CIA in World War Two, to intervene in northern Italy as the war approached its end, working under a secret project called McGregor, OSS operatives targeted advanced axis technology, including the rumored crashed UFO.

1:38:37 Speaker 6: By nineteen forty five.

1:38:38 Speaker 4: The Americans had reportedly transferred the Italian UFO to Write Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio for further study.

1:38:49 Speaker 11: Right Patterson Air Force Base faith.

1:38:51 Speaker 4: In Ohio, many of the top Nazi scientists, as a part of Operation paper Clip that the Allies had exfiltrated, also made their way to Write Patterson to work on the Magenta craft. Malta, as a sovereign territory with diplomatic immunity, would be the perfect international guardians of UFO secrecy. Initially, when Harold said the Knights of Malta were deeply embedded in the UFO story, I had no idea what to think. It sounded like a plot line from a Dan Brown or Umberto Echo novel. Secret society associated with the Vatican and the sovereign state of Malta governs UFO secrecy.

1:39:31 Speaker 6: Go figure.

1:39:32 Speaker 4: But not only were Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton Knights of Malta. And remember James Jesus Angleton seemed to be responsible for a lot of counterintelligence around UFOs that came out from the fifties.

1:39:44 Speaker 6: To the eighties.

1:39:44 Speaker 4: But the bizarre Nights of Malta UFO connection runs even deeper after further research. Colonel Philip J. Corso, later famous for his claims regarding reverse engineering alien materials at the Pentagon in his book The Day After. Roswell served as a high ranking and intelligence officer in Italy during the post war period. In fact, he was the personal liaison to the future Pope. He was also a Knight of Malta. He was also a main figure in Operation paper Clip and helped create the quote unquote rat lines exfiltrating Nazi scientists and technology.

1:40:17 Speaker 4: In fact, many Nazi scientists, specifically specializing in exotic propulsion, made their way to write Patterson Air Force Base after World War Two. Perhaps the most powerful general at the time, General Douglas MacArthur, and his whole intelligence staff Knights of Malta. Many of his staff displayed an unusual interest in the possibility of a quote unquote interplanetary war, and they framed alien related eschatology in the exact same terms Corso did during a nineteen fifty five speech at West Point.

1:40:49 Speaker 4: General MacArthur told assembled cadets the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the Earth must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets. Chief OSS member and another CIA founder wild Bill Donovan, who journalist Chris Sharp notes was likely not only involved in the Magenta crash retrieval, but in setting up original protocols for UFO crash retrievals, was also a Knight of Malta. Atomic energy director turned CIA director John McCone later CIA director Bill.

1:41:20 Speaker 6: Casey Knights of Malta.

1:41:21 Speaker 4: Remember that FDR was responsible for the communications with the Vatican about the crashed Magenta craft, while President Roosevelt's Vatican envoy Myron Taylor also a Knight of Malta. Maybe religious studies professor Diana Walsh Basalka, who has visited the Vatican archives and speaks with conviction that the Catholic Church knows more than meets the eye about UFOs, isn't so crazy after all.

1:41:45 Speaker 6: Maybe she's spot on, and.

1:41:47 Speaker 4: Look at the group that are supposedly engaging in UFO crash retrievals today, Jaysock or the Joint Special Operations Command According to journalist Seymour Hirsch, one of the modern heads of Jaysock, General Stanley mcriss Stall, and many of the members of Jasock themselves are all Knights of Malta. Does the Dewey currently work with Jaysock.

1:42:07 Speaker 16: We work with all of the security entities around the federal government.

1:42:12 Speaker 7: Did you guys work with Jaysock? Yes or no?

1:42:15 Speaker 2: Yes?

1:42:16 Speaker 4: We do, Okay, there are templars at the Vatican.

1:42:21 Speaker 5: It's a resident of the cruth or the myth whatever templars.

1:42:30 Speaker 4: But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the UFO story as well.

1:42:36 Speaker 5: Well, well I'm saying is yeah they did because Angelson was there.

1:42:41 Speaker 4: So for context for the audience, James Jesus Angleton was sort of one of the original founders of the CIA. Dulls was sort of a mentor to him. He was a skull and bones kid and ends up in Italy and he's kind of this eccentric, debonair, interesting guy who is also really just good at conniving and lying. And so. Angleton's father, Hugh Angleton, was involved with the Knights of mal.

1:43:09 Speaker 5: A member.

1:43:10 Speaker 4: He was a member and so and then so he's wow. So he's involved in the Vatican, which makes it more likely that James Jesus Angleton probably had something to do with the retrieval of that UFO, the Magenta Crash, which was kept at the Vatican.

1:43:25 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm specially letting, but no doubt in my mind.

1:43:29 Speaker 4: You're speculating. But there's so many connections. There's even a guy named John Warner the Fourth who is the grandson of Paul Mellon and the son of Senator John Warner, and he tells the story where he's three martinis in to a dinner or whatever with Paul Melon and Paul Mellon recalls the story. Paul Mellon's one of the founders of the CIA, and he's with Allen Dulls doing tech retrieval. In specifically, he says, I'm in Czechoslovakia and I'm standing on top of a saucer with Alan Dulles, and.

1:43:59 Speaker 17: My grandfather said, look, you know, we were in a facility, a hangar and we saw a German flying disc and I said, you know, oh, is that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines? And he laughed and he said.

1:44:15 Speaker 4: No, basically implying that it was like this anomalous object. And right there in Czechoslovakia and modern day Poland is this thing called kommler Stub where Hans Calmer, the most ruthless Nazi, was doing the most kind of black world technology projects, was rumored to be working on flying saucers. And there's this rumor of this thing called Degloca. And so you have the Hugh Angleton connection, but you also have Dullest and Paul Mellon standing on top of this saucer. And when the magenta object crashed, supposedly there was this partnership where Mussolini went to Hitler and was like, I don't really know what to do with this.

1:44:53 Speaker 4: Is this yours? And then he said, no, it's not ours, but we should work on it together. We should collaborate. So there's there. There are actually a lot of data points around this. You start to build this picture up.

1:45:05 Speaker 7: Said that the Italians even to this day are amongst the most innovatives in defense technology in the world.

1:45:15 Speaker 4: That's so interesting. So maybe that there's some inherited technology here.

1:45:19 Speaker 5: So let me say one fact for that is not well known in American when we look at the world. We say the second most important military force is the UK, and there especially that I have, but they have really dwindled in importance. And I didn't know this till recently. But I'm somewhat rather actually connected with the military world. I have a book coming out with essays on Jewish security of the last twenty five years. That's coming up soon, and Anybury no refees in their books. But but one of the people introducing the book was the chief from the Italian Air Force.

1:46:16 Speaker 5: I said, that's a little bit u and the editors said, no. In the in the Europe today the most important air force besides the US is the Italian Air Force. I have no idea.

1:46:31 Speaker 4: Really so they maybe they might be more advanced than meets the eye.

1:46:36 Speaker 5: There are more in measures than the rest of them in Europe.

1:46:39 Speaker 4: Interested this is news to me. But I think of Italian I guess the cars is being fast but unreliable. And then but the pot wow the air force.

1:46:51 Speaker 7: Yeah, well, Northern Italy as world class engineering, German level engineering, and they have any fields. And I always thought it was very interesting that after the Second World War the Germans were prohibited from going into aircraft because the Luftwaffe had been such a threat and as a result, the Germans specialized in drones. And I got into drone technology about not quite ten years ago, and the Germans are very strong in that, and I started to also realize how strong Italian engineering. But I think this episode in history is it's not well and as well understood as it could be.

1:47:38 Speaker 7: And I just wonder was this part of what drove the decision to create what we now call the Axis. That because the Italians assumed that this super high tech thing must be German and that began their dialogue and as they aligned, that became the Axis. Then again back to George C. Marshall and the team that is basically cleaning up after the end of World War Two and their recognition that many people have knowledge of very advanced technologies they must be brought to the United States and that Operation paper Clip period, and again who's already there.

1:48:25 Speaker 7: It's all these cast of characters and where have they been based Italy?

1:48:30 Speaker 4: That's amazing, so fair Ageah, there's.

1:48:33 Speaker 7: No proof in that, but there's an interesting line of inquiry.

1:48:36 Speaker 4: But there's so much property And now we have Richard Bissell to add to the the dulles Paul Mellon story to add to David Grush's recent testimony. So we are building up this, you know, important, uh, corroborative narrative.

1:48:50 Speaker 5: I'm just mentioning in passing. You know this rushing stich.

1:48:53 Speaker 3: I have.

1:48:55 Speaker 5: It from a oh shop, there's a no it's saying hard. But I was told it was Paul Mellan's working stick.

1:49:04 Speaker 6: No way, that's so interesting.

1:49:07 Speaker 4: What do you How'd you end up with that?

1:49:10 Speaker 7: They live in the same part of Virginia?

1:49:12 Speaker 5: Okay, what I knew? I didn't know Paul Mellan, but I knew all the people around him yeap, including his wife how how oh, and his his personal I called him, ran the fire side for him, and ran took care of the horses, and you know, he had race horses everything. That guy became my host palamn. So I heard all the stories about Paul Mellon. So I didn't meet Paul Mellan, but I know more about his life than you bel imagine, including all his youl friends. Oh gosh, but I have his working stick.

1:49:54 Speaker 4: That's so interesting. I kind of feel like we should put it in the shot.

1:49:59 Speaker 5: Or it was sent to me as part of my mission. You know, I still don't know my purpose.

1:50:10 Speaker 4: And so what what do you think the Knights of Malta play some sort of role in UFOs? And what do you think their role is?

1:50:19 Speaker 5: Now you're getting into the heart of the resident that organization that still exists. What form does it take now? I have no idea, but they still have the sovereign state identity?

1:50:36 Speaker 4: Do you think it goes back to the original templars?

1:50:39 Speaker 5: I don't know, okay, but how did they get the sovereign state? The Vatican must have organized it.

1:50:47 Speaker 4: They seem to have kind of a lot of top level business leaders and politicians involved in the Knights of Malta, that's.

1:50:55 Speaker 5: Right, so something. Yes, it's a see few different society. I mean, there are all these secret societies and so many things over the years have been attributed to the Council and Foreign Relations. Yes, I was a member of the Council for I don't know fifty years. I dropped out recently because they wanted me to keep sending them large amounts of money. I thought, yeah, you know, I've done my I paid my dues. But when you get back for the Council power relations, then you dig deeper. Man, it wasn't really them.

1:51:37 Speaker 5: It was some of them select group through Brown Brothers Harmon that set up CIA. You know, the different groups did different things and some of the great financial figures been involved with some but not others. It's not very different from the w e F and in Switzerland and differing group.

1:52:10 Speaker 4: But there's a Council Foreign Relations Nights of Malta connection.

1:52:15 Speaker 3: No.

1:52:16 Speaker 5: I would say there's some overlocking membership, but no no connection anyway, how some poor relations has been diluted and changed since the days of the Second World War and the Cold War. It's now much more diverse and much more defensive. Who who's ever in power in the right house? I don't know what they're going to do with Crumb,

1:52:47 Speaker 5: but they have been. They've been sort of swept a lorm but progressive Democrats, right, So this is you just brought this in. This is Paul Mellon walking stick that you ended up with. I can't verify, but that's why I was told.

1:53:06 Speaker 4: What does it represent anything? It looks very unique.

1:53:11 Speaker 5: Well, he had a lot of power, so.

1:53:14 Speaker 4: That was bestowed upon you. What else? What else did did Richard Bissell tell you?

1:53:22 Speaker 5: Well? I mean I think I've explained that in essence, there are a multiplicity of powers in play at any moment, and around presidents they have certain powers, but they are constrained by these other powers. And among them, the intelligence community is very powerful because it has found way to fund itself and to multiply itself. So you can't look at the budget and say that's what it is. Is it offerings businesses legitimate and legitimate.

1:54:07 Speaker 4: It's sort of this gangly octopus. It's impossible to really and capture.

1:54:11 Speaker 5: And so the Russians do this too, and they even do it in overt ways. They did with the this group that the leader was assassinated, the.

1:54:32 Speaker 4: Wagner gu Yeah, yeah.

1:54:34 Speaker 5: I mean they do that's over. They do it, not over. The Chinese are everywhere doing four kinds of stuff. Yeah, even in Manhattan.

1:54:45 Speaker 2: Yeah.

1:54:47 Speaker 5: So when when you weigh actions, you have to take into account what you see and what you don't see, the unseen enemies. The I should have been aware of that when I that was some of these comments on yours stumbled injured.

1:55:05 Speaker 4: Haven't you have no intention of Have you gotten any backlash because you've been saying some remarkable things on Twitter?

1:55:14 Speaker 7: Usually get it dad dropped something on Twitter and suddenly my inbox is full, like full, what people saying? You know, your dad is breaking the internet?

1:55:27 Speaker 4: But that seems positive. It's mostly positive.

1:55:29 Speaker 7: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

1:55:30 Speaker 5: She holds me from some bar away place, braces me up in the moon's different hours, and don you blew up the internet.

1:55:42 Speaker 7: I actually go bysel leave you alone for five minutes.

1:55:47 Speaker 11: Break.

1:55:49 Speaker 5: I carefully crapped in some backing up the language that I was not directly involved with UAP research.

1:56:02 Speaker 4: You said to read my words carefully.

1:56:04 Speaker 5: Nice now if if you're read them carefully, I was not. I was saying I was not directly to look at that it was, But I didn't say that I wasn't aware of it. Yeah, and I knew that eventually this stuff will come out and say, yeah, I knew about that, but I use the words to make it. I was backing your way speculation, but I didn't do that. The Roods didn't suggest I was speculating.

1:56:36 Speaker 4: I think this is an issue sometimes with people who are high up in government who want to disclose certain things but don't want to break any sort of relationships they have, or oaths they've sworn, or clearances they have where you'll hear David Grush or something spect he'll say, this is open source, this is a personal story, and I'll have to caveat constantly with that. And so if you're an average person, you just immediately your skeptical trigger goes off. But in fact he's trying to do you a service and saying, look at this, this is open source.

1:57:07 Speaker 4: So I just don't want to end up, you know, under the gun here because I don't want to. I don't want to, you know, end up in jail. You're giving your enemies fodder.

1:57:15 Speaker 7: The thing to keep in mind, and as in the research I've done too, is what you find is a lot of this cast of characters, including James Jesus Angleton, who went on to become the key person at the CIA. They all seem to have been part of General George C. Marshall's team at the end of the Second World War. They are all involved with the Marshall plans somehow or another, including Kennedy and Forrestall for a period are part of that, and so difficult to prove, but strange that they all seem to be connected to this subject.

1:57:58 Speaker 4: Well, Forestall's supposedly on this Majestic twelve. Who knows how much of the Majestic twelve is true, but this sort of you know, elite military and intelligence advisory board for Truman and Eisenhower and then George Marshall. Also there's this thing called the Battle of Los Angeles in nineteen forty two where UFO shows up and like flies down the coast and George Marshall was brief to that and so very interesting. Okay, so you have and then the other connections I think that are important to make with the Marshall plan is that was kind of immediately after these tech retrieval programs in Europe.

1:58:36 Speaker 4: So the Nazis had all this advanced technology and you had Tychom and ASOS. One was you know, signals intelligence, the other was you know, atomic intelligence, and it was trying to retrieve their most exotic technology. And if there was anything you know, involving UFOs there that would sort of be bound up in it.

1:58:57 Speaker 5: Spread Marhington. It was an attorney named Tom Farmer, and Tom and I played tennis together, you know. But it turned out Tom had been General Counsel of CIA.

1:59:16 Speaker 7: And he'd been at again at with the guys during the Marshall plant right.

1:59:21 Speaker 5: Wow, I was gonna say. It turned out he was involved in dr in the project called paper Flip. Uh huh, picking Germans and a reason why I was he s he was born in Berlin of a father who was a US diplomat, but he spoke German fluently. Mm So now I it never known on me when I first when it was my friend that started asking you about paper clip. But I learned later that he knew everything. M he was. He was one of the people that he yesked for him, know for him.

1:59:58 Speaker 4: You know, do you believe that advanced technology has benefited from retrieved unidentified aerial objects? So this would be like the Philip Corso day after Oswell narrative.

2:00:16 Speaker 5: The answer I would have for you is yes in two ways. In one way, we have learned that some

2:00:28 Speaker 5: types of propulsion, for example, exists that we never never envisaged, never conceived. The second way is that they have revealed

2:00:49 Speaker 5: a higher level of knowledge than anything we have on Earth, and we don't control it now only recently even where is it coming from?

2:01:06 Speaker 13: Me?

2:01:07 Speaker 5: You know, we have this new telescope looking up where are they? But then we have one revelation by the oceanographer in the last few days who says they are not China, they are not in the US, they are not extraterrestrial, meaning they're either here already under the water or subterranean, that's where they are.

2:01:39 Speaker 4: Yes.

2:01:40 Speaker 7: Then David Grosh, he says, talks about is it interdimensional? Yes, there suddenly and one sort of wonders like is this semantics? Like if you ask officially are there extraterrestrials, the answer is no, because extraterrestrial means off planet, but it doesn't include if it interdimensional, if it's ocean based. Are we actually all talking at cross purposes?

2:02:08 Speaker 4: Well, it's the reason the All Domain Anomalist you know research office, which is headed up by Kirkpatrick, who has all these sort of you know, when we should get into the the atomic ties to the UFO question. He has all, you know, this whole history and you know atomic research. He was at Oakridge and he always rests on we have no hard evidence of extraterrestrial life. But of course, you know, you have these anomalous things, you haven't done a proper analysis on them, you don't know what they are, you haven't classified them, and so you just you use that's like this straw Manning way of you know, explaining the thing away, and for an average person who's not really into the topic, you go, oh, this official is saying that there's no aug Yeah, but it's it's always extraterrestrial.

2:02:49 Speaker 4: So is there was there anything else that Richard Bissell told you. I hate to, you know, harp on that one interaction, but it just it's so fast. You have this guy who's number two at the S.

2:03:00 Speaker 13: Yeah.

2:03:00 Speaker 4: Yeah, he's set up Area fifty one and he's briefing you on other world technologies. Does he say anything else?

2:03:06 Speaker 2: Well, he.

2:03:09 Speaker 5: Didn't admit to or talk about bad things that had happened. He didn't want to get into a discussion about the Bay of Page, and he didn't raise incidents where we have overturned governments. Somehow he avoided that stuff. But I think most of it was about if you work at the leadership level, whether you're a leader or guid to a leader, you've got to keep it in play in their minds. The conflicting forces, and a lot of these forces are not any legal who has authority over what.

2:04:05 Speaker 5: You can't do A diagram that is meaningful for the entire US government because a lot of it is other power networks. Rather it's Michael Turner who's been I mean he was a lynchpin for three companies at least, and hadn't you know? He blocked everything suddenly. It's very unusual someone with that much power. Usually you have to buy them off. You give them something else more important. You promote them. Yeah. Someone asked me a months, what's the most effective brain to get rid of a major enemy?

2:04:49 Speaker 5: I see, you promote them, right, give him something more visible where the ego can be passifying. I did it more than months.

2:04:59 Speaker 4: You don't want that, that's funny. You don't want people yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't want them licking their wings. You'd rather have them happy and not focused on whatever they were focused on.

2:05:09 Speaker 5: I've never been publicly pergnacious, but there were times, well I think people had breakfast with one member of the Congress at one time she told me I have breakfast with him, and I asked him, how is it Dad has so much power but he has no enemies. People in power have so many enemies. And you said, the only thing you would say is the rumor is none survived.

2:05:45 Speaker 5: So whether that's true or not, I closed them in that rumor. I told everybody that's the rumor. Don't ask me. Yeah, everybody very.

2:05:54 Speaker 7: Rud But I think the key here is it's not so much what do Richard Bissel say directly to dat, although that has immense value. It's important to capture this for posterity, but it's also an invitation. You are now part of a network of people. It will be known that you've been blessed. It will be known not just in our government, it will be known in other governments. It will be known by the Russians. And that network operates for the whole of your life.

2:06:35 Speaker 5: There are different sources of information about how communication between JFK and whose Shop is established now for the average human in the world in them by say, think of the boone but number one, whose shop represented sense of familie. If you were really gonna communicate with the Central Committee, you would use to bringing the ambassador who had a direct line, so he would know so if he if he didn't serve, I think he may have served us, but we don't know. He didn't disclose. But I know you bring I can tell you about that later.

2:07:26 Speaker 5: But I mean he came to know me. I suld that. But but.

2:07:35 Speaker 4: The American ambassador was that Walter Stossel.

2:07:37 Speaker 2: Or he.

2:07:39 Speaker 5: Didn't matter him doing anything that mattered was do Brain was number one power and communication with Moscow.

2:07:50 Speaker 7: But but that's there was the official channels. But there seems that they were also unofficial channels.

2:07:56 Speaker 5: Well I had to be, and.

2:07:58 Speaker 7: One of them was it seems Norman Cousins, who was against nuclear weapons and somehow was able to pass letters back and forth that reached Christie.

2:08:13 Speaker 5: I'm trying to think back. I haven't talked about this before. My first encounter with Dr Brenan. As I said, he arrived in sixty two a phenomenon unusual member of the Central Committee. And I was attending some months after this in sixty three and went to one of these Washington galas, you know, the White House Pesco Roast of the President, one of those we have those events and when you're inviting, you get a seat with the names Hard. You don't sit where you want, you sit where your name Hard is.

2:09:08 Speaker 5: If I sat down, this distinguished looking gentleman sat next to me and said, Hi, I'm Helmm and he said, yes, I know you. I am Ambassador Dobin. So all my alarms were known. That's not accidental. He chose to sit there. I'm sure, so I'll have to be careful. And he just chatted a friendly way. Your name is well known in Russia, long before you're in at these heavy levels of decision making. I said, why is that? He said, you're you are named after your anem whose name is identical to mine. He said he was really famous as a chess player, especially among all the security people who were nuts about in kenji Be and others about chess.

2:10:23 Speaker 5: Who was a chess champion them? So and he played many Russians and oh, I said so. He said, you identified as the progeny of that herald Manden, which in our way of thinking is what's good bloodlines. And so he chatted about that and how heming to Washington was surprised for me. He said, right, we have landed at the center of everything. I said, yeah, I'm surprised. They said yeah, he said, I gather you were in there with the generals. I said, how would you know that? He said, our system is far more thorough.

2:11:15 Speaker 5: You should be aware of them, and you might imagine. I said, yeah, you didn't ask me about what took place, except to say, you emerged as someone who was able to talk down the most belligerent American military official of all the time about time anyway, And so he said that made you of interest. How did you do that? Well? Thank you a good chest player? How did you win? And so later we had these encounters. I don't know, once a year or unplanned. Here was found me a subuta and he didn't ask I have never thought about this.

2:12:23 Speaker 5: He didn't ask you one time? Why is everyone so excited about and identified playing objects? Really? He just innocently, It wasn't kind of pumplished, intelligensided me about anything specific. He was very careful. I said, because it's something we don't control. It's quite simple. Whatever it is, we feel threatened because we only feel safe when we are in total control.

2:13:04 Speaker 5: He said, nations, I've never in to control. There are always any expected challenges. I said, yeah, but tell that to somebody in Washington, would do? I mean, they are not students of history in Washington. You know the emergence of new threats. It's not something easily absorbed. It's not our culture, either triumphant or not. And wringing the second order made us feel really superior.

2:13:43 Speaker 2: So he's.

2:13:46 Speaker 5: He said there's something there. Remember he said that is dividing your country, but maybe could unify other two countries.

2:13:59 Speaker 3: MM.

2:14:00 Speaker 5: That's the way he said.

2:14:02 Speaker 4: And this is about the UFO subject.

2:14:04 Speaker 7: So extraordinary.

2:14:06 Speaker 5: Wow, that's probably I think he was looking for me to say something. But I was not previous to those

2:14:18 Speaker 5: that is between JFK and Crusia.

2:14:23 Speaker 4: And there are rumors that JFK wanted to do a joint space program with the Soviets around this. Sun used the UFO thing as kind of a unifying you know, rallying cry or something.

2:14:35 Speaker 5: But he would prime number one reason that's not being disguided by these events that think to think it might be US versus them, that this is not Russia or the US. So we need an early runing system. Those things that you see are not hours alright, that makes sense. How it extended beyond there to the other idea, maybe we should work together.

2:15:11 Speaker 3: MM.

2:15:11 Speaker 5: That drop put the swords down and lost him up of the way to develop our futures without being more of the enemies. M Now that switch, my understanding was definitely in Kennedy's mind. And so did did I see any No? No, I didn't, but some people did. The fact that he learned he expressed verbally to a number of the senior people his desire to share our knowledge of UFOs would Russiam cause alarm mm among some officials in Russians. Who's so many? Definitely, But that was one of the many things on JFK and he was fighting about some but it seemed to alone people that CIA or some people, CIA is a big organization.

2:16:24 Speaker 4: There is this letter that was Foyd used the Freedom of Information Act to you know, to get out of the government in two thousand and five, and it's of controversial provenance, so we should coveyat that to the audience. But it's a letter from JFK to acting CIA director John mccoon after he had fired Dulles, and he's basically saying, we need to coordinate. I need all of the data on quote unquote unknowns in in sensitive airspace from NASA because we need to coordinate better with the Russians so they don't mistake these unknowns as acts of American aggression.

2:17:00 Speaker 4: That he's basically saying, I need all the UFO data so I can better coordinate with the Russians and we don't end up in you know, some horrible you know, bomb out scenario the UFOs.

2:17:11 Speaker 7: How do we deconflict? Can we create a regime for deconflictions soday? We don't inadvertently fire And it's not the Russians vice versa.

2:17:20 Speaker 4: And in the nineteen seventy one Salt Treaty, it's written into it. It's that sort of same language is written in it.

2:17:27 Speaker 7: It's in there.

2:17:28 Speaker 4: And so so do we think that this letter might be real? This two thousand and five for you letter?

2:17:36 Speaker 4: That's amazing. Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death?

2:17:45 Speaker 5: This is your speculation, But do I think so? Yes? I think it was probably the number one issue.

2:17:57 Speaker 4: Why do you think that?

2:18:00 Speaker 5: Because from what I have read, not but I know, because I don't know anything about the actual documents sent by JFKA to RuSHA. But what I've read is that he run and to talk openly about the UAP phenomena, and the basis from why don't we stopped fighting with each other, enjoying forces with and make peace?

2:18:38 Speaker 7: And he also wanted to reduce the nuclear arsenal on both sides. Yes, and that was also a threatened challenge.

2:18:45 Speaker 4: To the community and specifically hated that viace of each China because it was like, if we didn't have nukes, they would outman us.

2:18:55 Speaker 5: Yeah, I was worried about numbers.

2:18:57 Speaker 4: So you think so you think maybe in some of the correspondence it was let's worked together on the non human intelligence or alien issue. It's it's funny Douglas Caddy, who is the lawyer of Howard Hunt. Howard Hunts this you know, known CI, a longtime spook who shows up in all sorts of you know, he's like the Janitor and Watergate or whatever. And uh and he, Douglas Caddy says, you know, I kept asking Howard Hunt, you know, what was the JFK murder actually about? And he kept giving these kind of deflection answers, and then finally he says, it was about the alien presence.

2:19:34 Speaker 5: I think it was.

2:19:36 Speaker 4: That's fascinating.

2:19:37 Speaker 5: I think jf he fully knew all about UFOs long before he became Trudglent.

2:19:43 Speaker 4: What gives you conviction and that because.

2:19:47 Speaker 5: He rose in the intelligence for a while, he learned most of it from Forrestal.

2:19:54 Speaker 4: He wasn't an intelligence and forrestaw his Secretary of the Navy before becoming Secretary of Defense.

2:20:01 Speaker 5: Yeah, and for Us fully briefed them and talked about it, and he talks about you'll have to do the history, but he was fully briefed by Forrest All.

2:20:13 Speaker 4: How do we know Forrestalt knew about UFOs because there are tons of rumors he, you know, managed Admiral Bird who engaged in Operation High Jumps, you know, bringing probably like seventy or so ships and thirty three I think, you know, airplanes and almost five thousand men down the coast of Argentina and towards Antarctica, and they reportedly encounter all these flying saucers that are shooting at them with lasers. But other than that, do we have any real, you know, evidence that forest All knew about UFOs.

2:20:45 Speaker 5: You have to do more research. I my research, which tends to be scattered in until recently, I haven't tried to organize it. But I've found several references to Barstol for him joining to Borsaw with questions and getting answers.

2:21:06 Speaker 4: Interesting. Well, you know, JFK was also extremely interested in astrophysics at Harvard and was close with Don Menzel, who was this famous UFO de Bunker, but who admitted to JFK that he held some of the deepest, you know, clearances across the board CEA and s A and Navy, and so maybe there's some sort of connection there. But did you ever speak to JFK about UFOs directly? No?

2:21:32 Speaker 5: No, My interaction with JFK and Bobby was Bury's limits. But I was somehow part of them clean because Sarrage Schreiber, the brother in law, was the job. He talks to me all the time. Sarage Schreiber proposed me for several different jobs, and I defined each one, but I was accepted in a circular person. But Bobby and Tinny, they were consumed with events that seemed to be coming at them faster and faster. If I look back at top management, I would have to say they were operating without inadequate buffer system.

2:22:29 Speaker 5: So I'm my guess is they were overloaded with stuff and didn't have a way of well, neither one of them. When you were centered having small staff, but you know, you don't you're operating on your own. You don't know how to run apparatus. Someone like L B. J. Came in, he w he ran the whole damn saint,

2:22:52 Speaker 5: you know, some multitude of people at no levels. But

2:22:59 Speaker 5: JFF came in but well never the naval experience, but seemed to be busy with Forestall.

2:23:10 Speaker 4: And do you think Forrestall's death had anything to do with the UFO's So Forrestall was sort of pushed out of his position at Secretary of Defense and he was sort of betting on George Dewey against Truman, and then he ends up in this Navy hospital Bethesda, Maryland, and he sort of you know, gets killed by gravity quote unquote it so he's like mid writing some Sophocles poem. I think his brother, his brother, HARRYS. Forestall had met with him the day before, said he was totally obscene sound mind.

2:23:42 Speaker 5: True, and window didn't seem to be opening boom.

2:23:45 Speaker 4: That's right. That was the other thing. Yeah, And it was like his bathrobe was like tied to the The whole thing made no sense. See do you think that had anything to do with an interest in the UFO subject?

2:23:57 Speaker 5: Probably? Wow, I'm not going to speculate.

2:24:02 Speaker 4: Yeah. And so, but so after JFK and all these guys, George mc bundy, all this top eights are there, go to los Alamos. They're presumably given the same sort of briefing that you got. Do you think he then takes an increased interest in UFOs at all. Yes, And what makes you think that?

2:24:24 Speaker 5: I think JFK somehow so this moment to make real peace. We were worried about China about that moment, but we in the Soviets just stop fighting, joined forces, ex flight, let me know together and dealing with this first that we don't understand.

2:24:53 Speaker 4: Yeah, and there somehow in.

2:24:55 Speaker 5: The exchange during the crisis, and so there were commune educations with throw at Chef. We don't know every word. Maybe someone is recorded. Some of it may have been through the brim who may have used his lines. I mean, he had his method of communication that was theoretically you couldn't impregnate a problem. I've seen him establish a working discussion, true, true, guys.

2:25:34 Speaker 4: And that's that's a thread that recurs occasionally. Actually, Gorbachev was being interviewed by Charlie Rose, and Charlie is saying, you know, it's talking about you know, you talk to me about your correspondence with Reagan, and Gorbachev goes in a really weird direction that nobody expects, and he says, well, one time, we're sitting there, you know. Reagan turns to him and he whispers.

2:26:00 Speaker 18: He says, if the United States were attacked by someone from outer space, would you help us?

2:26:14 Speaker 15: I said, no doubt about it.

2:26:17 Speaker 16: He said, we too.

2:26:20 Speaker 7: So that's interesting right now, in modern times, we are clearly shooting at these things. The week of the Chinese balloon, there were three other unidentified objects that the military said they shot down. And so here's just a very profound question if this represents higher intelligence or even just intelligence, let alone higher intelligence. He's shooting at it the right way to open the conversation. Number one, Number two, generally speaking, you're not supposed to shoot it stuff if you don't know what it is.

2:27:01 Speaker 7: And so are we locked into a kind of nineteen fifties thinking about this thing because it's so secret, it's so compartmentalized, it's so dangerous to national security that no one can even really discuss this. And are we missing something quite profound because we won't even ask the question, why are we shooting at something that we don't understand and might represent intelligence of some kind.

2:27:36 Speaker 4: Maybe they're sort of way to you know, there's one of my favorite quotes eat in Philpots. It's like the world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to get sharper totally. And there's something about this bi directional you know, if we ascend to a certain level, maybe we can have communion with these things, but it doesn't really make sense for them to show themselves to us until then.

2:27:58 Speaker 7: Again, regardless of whether it is real, since we can't identify it, what I find again interesting to observe is a level of fear that exists, and particularly in that official circles, in amongst militaries, because of the lack of control, that it must be dangerous, it must be a threat. And you will often hear the discussion of there's this thing in our airspace. I'm like, what if we're in it's airspace?

2:28:29 Speaker 1: Yeah?

2:28:30 Speaker 7: Right, It's just a creative way of thinking, what's the definition of airspace? In a world where we have a jamis Web telescope that is literally millions of miles away, we're probably in a lot of other airspaces that we can't even identify. So it's just, again, given the level of scientific and technological advancement that we humanity are capable of we are sending drones millions of miles away, why are we surprised if we have something here as well? And so it's the way you begin the thought process on this.

2:29:10 Speaker 7: I fear we're stuck in this mental lockdown that made sense in nineteen fifty, but it doesn't make sense in twenty twenty five.

2:29:21 Speaker 4: It really doesn't doesn't even make sense for a national security standpoint, especially from the primary lens through which we see this, but it is an important lens, and it doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly if you have this over compartmentalization and Cold War secrecy, where you have these aerospace prime contractors that were sent to do this so you couldn't use the Freedom of Information Act, or you wouldn't have civilian oversight or whatever, plusable deniability, deniability, and then you have constant compartmentalizations.

2:29:51 Speaker 4: The left hands not talking to the right. You're not getting the proper coordination on the most advanced and exciting and interesting R and D on the.

2:30:00 Speaker 7: I would go a bit further, and again I have talked a lot about this. There's another layer of this problem, and that is China, Russia, India. They never had what we would call a Cartesian revolution, meaning in the West, the United States, and Europe, after Renee Descartes, the philosopher basically split apart the scientific from the mystical, the mysterious, the religious, the belief systems. And we continue to this day to have this split. And so therefore you can't study this stuff because if it's not repeatable, it's not subject to scientific analyzes, because that's all about repeatable repeatability.

2:30:50 Speaker 7: But the rest of the world didn't have this split, and they still think holistically, and you can have mystical happenings with scientific findings, and that is not contradictory in China, in Russia, in India, and across Africa. So the question today is is China may be in collaboration with Russia making more progress because they don't have this mental hang up.

2:31:17 Speaker 16: If you wanted to study certain kinds of things related to what's called esp in the United States, you had to hide it very carefully because you were crazy and the government didn't want your people to thunk their supporting crazy stuff. But if you wanted to do the work in Russia, go right ahead, fine, here's your money, because they're not caught in the religion that says it's not possible.

2:31:38 Speaker 7: That's an interesting question. We can't bring our science to it because we have an inhibition. And if China can, is it possible that they will announce this first. And that's part of why I think a lot of this is progressing. There's a fear of what is called catastrophic disclosure, and that China says, we have the fastest supercomputers and quantum computers, we have the best artificial intelligence and artificial general intelligence. We got to the moon before you guys in this round, which looks like it's a real possibility, and we have found something.

2:32:20 Speaker 7: And if that is announced, we in the West will go, well, prove it. But the whole rest of the world in that moment, the danger is all the adulation, admiration of Los Alamos of NASA, all eyes turned to Beijing, and then we can say, well, but this is not scientific and you can't prove it. But the whole rest of the world is still in awe and wonder, And that is another reason why is not in our control Here in the United States. There's a real possibility that our competitors are erasing ahead because they haven't got these mental constraints.

2:33:03 Speaker 4: I think that's very well said. Yeah, And I hope uh policy makers and whoever's listening to this listens to that and we make real changes. Accordingly, we're gonna do explain that tweet series with you.

2:33:29 Speaker 12: Down what I called Curtis LeMay and I said.

2:33:33 Speaker 2: General, I know we have a room hit.

2:33:38 Speaker 12: Right, Patterson where you put all his secret stuff. Could I go in there. I've never heard him get mad, But he got madder and held me, cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question.

2:33:56 Speaker 4: You said on X that you thought Curtis LeMay had some knowledge of the UAP topic. Yeah, why do you think that?

2:34:05 Speaker 5: I never heard him say something about that. But the research that he was into included the new powered airplane for the better Project Ryan, the better bombers. But he was I have to think about it. I have a reason somewhere in the back of my head. Maybe we're gonna have a break soon. I'll have to think.

2:34:31 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:34:31 Speaker 4: He started the Rand Corporation and was interested in Towns and Brown's work as well.

2:34:36 Speaker 7: Right right South, and Ran did right on the subject at the beginning.

2:34:40 Speaker 5: They did.

2:34:41 Speaker 4: And you know who ended up running RAND was the president of rand for over two or three decades. Was Michael Rich, who's ben Rich's son. Ben Rich is obviously you know, the successor to Kelly Johnson at Skunk Works, right, Who's responsible for the kind of stealth revolution.

2:34:59 Speaker 7: All the group of people that are all interconnected.

2:35:02 Speaker 5: Yes.

2:35:03 Speaker 4: Absolutely. You also said on X that you have uncovered collaboration between Nicole and Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown.

2:35:14 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:35:14 Speaker 5: But I said to you informally, I did not get that from any US source?

2:35:23 Speaker 6: What source?

2:35:23 Speaker 4: Did you get it from?

2:35:27 Speaker 5: Foreign intelligence?

2:35:28 Speaker 4: Do you think it is a good source? Do you think it's real?

2:35:32 Speaker 5: No reason? Why would somebody tell me that?

2:35:35 Speaker 4: Do you know the nature of that collaboration?

2:35:38 Speaker 5: The Yeah, because nobody had associated them.

2:35:43 Speaker 15: No.

2:35:44 Speaker 5: As I say, I have a network real, it's not a network of secrets, is a network of trusted people. I mean during a lot of these recent years, I have friends chiefs, the national security chief for the Japanese prime minister with my buddy.

2:36:09 Speaker 7: Actually Dad, we should say that after you served Kennedy Johnson Nixon Ford, you were also an advisor to many heads of government for many European countries. You advised every single Japanese prime minister since Takanaka in nineteen seventy one. So, I mean the breadth of the network that he has is it's exceptional. I've never seen anything like it.

2:36:33 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:36:33 Speaker 5: Well, when Nickson went down Jerry Ford enter of the White House the first full day I got summoned, he was there with Bill Seedman. And Bill Seedman was you know, in later years ahead of Resolution Trust and the I see you know all that. Bill Seeden was brilliant. Anyway, he said, how we we've got something you wanna do. I said, you know, I'm probably gonna leave for the governments, and well, don't don't hurry. We have a lot of things we have want you to do. But first of all, we want you to arrange with the NSA a new intelligence system where what is reported of interest to Jerry Ford and is what he wants and not but the CIA thinks he ought to want.

2:37:37 Speaker 5: So I I did that. Yeah, the next morning at six am, I living in Georgetown at the time, I mean knocking on my endor, I'm sent by the director Man and saying it, well, be a morning brief. And then every day I had you know, I p I prefer to yep, just a here later. But anyway, And I said, Jerry FOURD doesn't need to know about who the new mistress for the French prime minister. It's not really up his alley. But we do need to know is important things like Russian bookings for ships that might contain might have capacity to move a lot of our range as we were worried about inflation.

2:38:34 Speaker 5: So I went through a list of such things. Oh, this is wonderful if pevery flamed for that. The head of the NSAY you know, some general I can't remember his name now, told me can you have lunch over here? I'm okay, And he said, you're the best client NSAY has ever had. You're telling us what you need. That we have huge resources, but we never know about the client once. So we feed them all kinds of stuff and we give it to CIA and then they decide what might feel of interest to him. And they emphasized the love life of most important people.

2:39:17 Speaker 4: That sounds like a CIA thing to do, or just just go for the compromise or so it keeps the engine right.

2:39:27 Speaker 7: That you're your reconfiguration of the intelligence, that when that goes into the present daily briefing remains, and that the NSA continues to have that input which they did not have before that time.

2:39:43 Speaker 5: Wow, myself, but that's my I'm done to believe after I'm after I left government.

2:39:53 Speaker 4: Well, real quick, Harold, I do want to stick on the Townshend Brown Castla collaboration. So do you do you know anything about the ne nature of that collaboration.

2:40:05 Speaker 5: About Andrew Rabbit motion.

2:40:12 Speaker 2: Wow?

2:40:13 Speaker 4: And so Tesla stumbled on this stuff as well, because they were both working with high voltage electricity.

2:40:20 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think I would I really would like to read works, but they're all in the hands of you can't have access.

2:40:33 Speaker 4: You know, who is tasked with retrieving Tesla's files, John Trump, who was an MIT professor, the world's or the country's leading radar expert at the time, and Donald Trump's uncle.

2:40:45 Speaker 5: Yeah, but he passed them over, didn't need to enable the intelligence and that.

2:40:49 Speaker 4: Right, I don't know. That's interesting and that goes towards your theories around this stuff. And I'm pretty sure Townsend Brown's stuff was classified by the Navy.

2:40:59 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:41:00 Speaker 5: So yeah, I had the baby because you're working on submarine.

2:41:03 Speaker 4: He was, Yeah, And he was part of the Navy up until nineteen forty two when skunk work started and then he joined Martin Vega Corporation. But maybe he was still working for the Navy, because he he showed up two weeks after leaving the Navy and he sort of left, you know, they said that they dismissed him, but like he had an amazing record, and there's even an FBI file from the time saying he was the country's leading radar expert. So there's something around that story that's very interesting.

2:41:29 Speaker 7: It is so fascinating too that the public are clamoring for the release of the JFK file. Is but still no talk of the Tesla papers.

2:41:38 Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody talks about it.

2:41:40 Speaker 7: And so what's in there that's of such great importance.

2:41:44 Speaker 4: Well, Tessa's another guy. He said he spoke, he communicated with aliens in Colorado Springs, and people just I think they assume that's the quacky part of his work or whatever. They assume that that's ridiculous or whatever. But he would he said that and call it, you know, so the townsend Brown would constantly talk about you know, space brothers and communication with aliens. He would sleep next to what he called the short wave radio. He claimed that that was how he communicated with them.

2:42:14 Speaker 5: It's quite possible that the rose communication improvised different raism is a radio. I'm sure ray radio would be run not so hard to do harder as to getting somebody's head telepaths, especially because we grew up thinking that right.

2:42:38 Speaker 7: So, and yet the US government spend a fair amount of time and money on exactly that issue over the years.

2:42:45 Speaker 5: Do they said that they learned anything between that and the LSD. We'll never know, but they have some knowledge.

2:42:53 Speaker 4: Yeah, Because this is an interesting kind of question because Stargate, this psychic spy program started by how I'll put off and rustle targ Originally most of the guys working on that were part of the technical staff services the CIA, and it was people like Sydney Gottlieb and a lot of his comrades who were working on this stuff. And then post Church Commission that kind of changed. But yeah, how far do you think we went when it came to kind of mart mind control? And you know, it's clear that one intelligence modality is being able to remote view, draw up Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, all sorts of things like that.

2:43:33 Speaker 4: Even Jimmy Carter is on record saying the craziest thing of my presidency from nineteen seventy six to nineteen eighty was actually this woman, Rosemary Smith, finding a down T twenty two Russian cargo plane. And she was given all of Africa as a target, and she circled three square miles in zyeir and they found the plane.

2:43:53 Speaker 11: And the next time one of our space satellites went over that area relocated the plane where she said it was.

2:44:00 Speaker 4: What So that's clear, But do you think we've gone farther in there? Sort of mind control techniques that we have.

2:44:07 Speaker 5: Well very nicely, but we don't know do me?

2:44:10 Speaker 4: Yeah?

2:44:12 Speaker 5: Personally? But I think about always being of some feral point, all these inter connectivities from men, I kept doing him from where's the direction coming from? I mean, I don't feel any direct sensing. On the other hand, when I grew up, my mother was a powerful personality my brain. Mean, she could read my mind. She said, why did you do that? And I don't remember doing that? Yes you do. Let me see. It was third of January nineteenth fotu or something, you know, and how should do that? So she could do it, but I shouldn't do that with her.

2:45:07 Speaker 5: But on the other hand, I sometimes feel there's this hand over me. That's then no little left or right.

2:45:18 Speaker 5: That's the closest I have to it.

2:45:20 Speaker 4: And now you feel maybe somewhat guided to look into a lot of this, you know, Townsend, Brown and UFOs a few guy.

2:45:28 Speaker 5: And why did I hear about that? Because I I showed a deep interest. I said it to me the same. Why is it I can't see Tessa's work? Why much so important does it make now to be understand some of my scientists? And let's all that. And I respect the work of Albert Einstein, but his his work conceptual and theoretic throw around math. Teslam was very much hands on,

2:46:09 Speaker 5: but he's learned about electricity, his application in everything, the movement of electrons that five friends sends powering lights in your room, which led him into physical movement, transposition, whatever term you want to use. But all that is buried. But he was way way out there. I mean, in my mind he was equal to or even stronger than Einstein.

2:46:51 Speaker 4: I agree with that. I mean, well, Einstein was never an experimentalist. Tesla was dealing real experiments.

2:46:59 Speaker 5: He was, if I say here, was cerebral. You know, there's all mental, conceptual.

2:47:06 Speaker 4: To me, it's almost like Einstein put a governor on our physical progress in reality.

2:47:11 Speaker 5: And actually I agree with that he made.

2:47:16 Speaker 2: That right.

2:47:17 Speaker 5: Yes, well, it's touch level is trying to pull the not right.

2:47:21 Speaker 4: Yes, And the experimentalists make the most progress, and often they're poor theoreticians and they don't actually have the proper framework to really understand what they're doing. Yeah, but they're I mean, I think in the case of Tesla Towns Brown and a bunch of other cases, they're sort of uh, really at the back, operating at the boundaries of human knowledge. And often it's with high energy physics or you know, particle accelerators things like that, where we're doing things in the physical world that are kind of breaking, breaking prior limits.

2:47:52 Speaker 4: And sometimes it's in my cross my cross could be and just getting you know, to to lower levels of granularity. But I think that gets so much more progress than guys you know, with chalkboards, just like writing equations.

2:48:05 Speaker 7: So this comes up against another issue and you and I were talking with Eric Weinstein the other day about this, which is did we create a kind of invisible glass or perspect's wall. And many technologies, particularly in the nuclear space, were placed on the other side, and so you could only study them or get involved in them if you had a classified status and you joined a government lab or an approved academic lab. But if you tried to do things with nuclear physics in your garage, you were going to be arrested.

2:48:43 Speaker 7: And people have been arrested over the years for attempting these things. Well, that pushed a lot of theoretical physics into the don't touch arena. And now, because of incredible advancements in computational power in the kind of devices that gather data, basically you can't lock it away the way you used to, people are able to uncover it. And maybe that is part of also what is causing this UAP issue to bubble up to the surface is because it's very hard to keep a lock on it. Now you can classify the TESLA papers, but human beings are still starting to figure out what Tesla figured out.

2:49:33 Speaker 7: And today you know, there's been talk of, for example, in Dreesen and Horowitz, who are two of the leading venture capitalists alive today, who have recently been discussing the previous administration's attitude towards math because they don't want some teenager coming up with an artificial intelligence that would have wide ranging consequences. So they started to think we could lock that down, you know.

2:49:58 Speaker 19: With one of the things we argued in our meeting with the White House on a policy was you know, look, they were going to be there are going to be issues that come from AI, but let's they should be regulated. The regulation should happen at the application level, not at the technology level.

2:50:08 Speaker 5: Yeah.

2:50:08 Speaker 7: And he argued with me when I said that.

2:50:10 Speaker 19: Well, yes, so so so Ben basically said, look, it doesn't make sense because to regulated at the technology level, you're regulating math, and of course we're not going to do that, Like, that doesn't make any sense. And you'll recall that what they said was no, actually we can classified, man, we can classify math. And literally this was this is this is verbatim, this is this is we we did. We classified a whole entire areas of physics, uh in the nuclear era and made them state secrets like the of the like theoretical physics, science physics.

2:50:39 Speaker 4: And they're like wait, what, like what yeah, like physics supposed to be open source.

2:50:43 Speaker 7: And so you start to wonder, is Eric Weinstein right that physics went down a certain road because there was a wall. Yes, and now the weight of new innovations is crushing that wall.

2:50:56 Speaker 4: Well that brings uh, you know another explain that tweet series. So we have Harold you wrote questions appearing regarding successor to a e c ae CS. The Atomic Energy Commission Department of Energy now oversees all national labs, including nuke research and security. National labs also include advanced research on other potential security threats such as biotech, all subject to DO Department of Energy R and D classifications. So are you saying here that our most advanced science is not occurring in the labs or hallways of M. I. T. Harvard, Stanford, but in fact at these DOE research facilities.

2:51:43 Speaker 4: Yes, I guess that's just a mic drout moment.

2:51:48 Speaker 5: Let me give you an example. I became really close friends with Howard Howard Baker. I mean, you've made a great press anyway. I worked with him, talked to him a lot, We became friends. He had me and my wife at that time down at his country house several times, and he said, one day I went to eruptive Oak Ridge and spent some time with them, and I said, oh, I didn't know you were attached for them. I thought you were attachedment Tennessee Valley. He said, yeah, but you know I live in Tennessee. I'm nearby.

2:52:43 Speaker 5: You can imagine that we are intimately interconnected. I worked would life to spend a few days talking to them about the technologies they're working on that might be made commercialized in some way or other, because they don't have that in their work agenda. They just develop and develop. But they said, I just have a feeling that a lot of that should be made in public. Trying did and they have really interesting stuff going up areas that you you never think of, the most impressive runners. When they said, somebody said, we know more about filters than anybody in the world.

2:53:32 Speaker 5: That's filters, I said, like filters for the work supplies, and filters of molecules, filters of any moving elements of pus you know, the uh our system. And we don't have a purpose for all this, but they're very important. In the other thing, be finding your reference. That's why we do it. Mm I said, it's a great value in biotech and in management of the water supply. Is only one of many things, but it should be well, we don't have a mechanism for generalizing what we're doing. MM and me. It's too much, it's too much work to say that's to be regulate.

2:54:29 Speaker 5: So we just we we don't want to get tangled up with all that stuff in Washington, so we just do what we're doing. It's stuck in my mind and why it's when the AT and T was on the even being broken up.

2:54:51 Speaker 5: AT and T hired me as the final witness before Judge Howard's ring and I got in to the United States. Is not ready, so total breakup. Because number one, Bell Labs is where all are really advanced sciences. They said, how do you know that? Because I went to Bell Labs. It's fine week there. I'm telling you that's where all the brain power is. And I said. The second reason is our industry. We don't We don't have Panasonic and all these other companies ready to build all the phones for all the offices we have.

2:55:34 Speaker 5: We're not ready. So if you're going to do this should be done in stages. The Department of Justice guy kept getting up, I have directed this testimony is not part of the casion. Judge reading and shut them down, said he's the first man talking about anything. Rether thant of interest to me as a human being.

2:55:55 Speaker 4: So just then to you believes because we're talking about Bell Labs. That's part of this narrative of this guy Philip J. Corso, who was working in the Army on what he claims to be the Foreign Material Exploitation Desk. He says that as part of that role, basically crash materials from Roswell were given to him to dole out to private industry, and mainly it was given to Bell Labs. He says that kevlar, lasers and transistors were all derivative of this alien technology would be so you'd say possible, but not you don't have any evidence for that.

2:56:35 Speaker 5: Okay, and let me interact.

2:56:38 Speaker 7: Something that keeps coming up in conversation about this issue is I hear a lot of pip up look for the technologies where there's no on ramp. What do you mean on ramp? I mean you can't find the research history that led to it. Those are the interesting ones to pay attention to. I'm not saying it's definitely from this particular story. The ones that come out of nowhere don'ts have interesting stories?

2:57:10 Speaker 4: So fascinating And Harold, do you believe because you're interested in Towns in Brown to begin with. Presumably this source gave you this information on Towns in Brown collaborating with Tesla, which, if that's true, that is remarkable and needs to be known more broadly. Do you think that Towns in Brown discovered anti gravity?

2:57:33 Speaker 5: I don't know, but somebody just posted on them that the works Towns are from no downloaded. The whole thing turns out to be five hundred got my telephone.

2:57:54 Speaker 7: He's very excited about it.

2:57:55 Speaker 4: That's amazing.

2:57:58 Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, somewhere in there, I'm gonna find something. So I can't answer your question right now. Yeah, but but I think anyway was under try the movement of life proms allowed repositioning of just about anything.

2:58:28 Speaker 4: Is what exactly does that mean?

2:58:30 Speaker 5: It's the term trans remote, transmutation, transmutation, interesting of elements.

2:58:38 Speaker 4: So that's so interesting because when I go deep enough on the Townshend Brown stuff with certain scientists, they'll say that it gets into that the transmutation of elements thing, and that that's actually why this stuff was shut down because there are more dangerous implications around that than the anti gravity stuff.

2:59:02 Speaker 7: Well, look at today again, I'm a bit involved in the world of artificial intelligence, we already are able to create what are called programmable materials, where you can specify the behavior of the material and use materials as a data transmission mechanism. So suddenly you're dealing with things and capabilities that don't fit traditional parameters. Let's add to that that you know, because of Google's new Sycamore supercomputer and their new Willow chip, they're already discovering basically the recipes for creating new materials atom by atom by adam, which is a revolution in human history because in the past you had to start with, you know, a tree to make a table out of wood or a boat, right, but today you can start with what is the requirement, what are the characteristics that I need, and then build that material atom by atom by atom.

3:00:11 Speaker 7: So suddenly, I mean we have I think they've said three hundred and eighty thousand new materials and two million new crystals that no one's ever worked with before. And this will only continue now. So these ideas that you can have materials that do strange things is no longer insane, like we're building them.

3:00:32 Speaker 5: Which is a loser to advise it here and make it over there. Also, yes, it once you have the concept it's a book, it's a cookbook.

3:00:46 Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, so we're you're it's the the JFK administration. You're this young wiz kid, and you see this kind of rupture in the administration where JFK is going to scout the CIA to the winds. Dallas gets fired. He's kind of licking his wounds back at the Brown Brothers Harriman, which is this firm that sort of formed the CIA to begin with, and he is plotting possible revenge against JFK. Probably, So what do you what do you think happens from there? Do you think Dellis had anything to do with JFK's assassination.

3:01:33 Speaker 2: Well, they say they are going to release all.

3:01:39 Speaker 5: Those papers, that's right, so really scene, But what does all those papers mean? I mean, like one version or all the versions?

3:01:51 Speaker 4: What do you have? You ever met a guy named Danny Sheehan By any chance, Fippin knows him. So do you what do you think of because you actually you tweeted this is the first time I was so liked. I was like, Wow, I'm on Harold's radar. This is amazing, he tweeted. You know, Jesse from American Alchemy just went over a lot of the history around the JFK assassination with Danny Sheehan, and so I felt like that was maybe somewhat of an endorsement of the Danny Sheehan narrative of what happened.

3:02:25 Speaker 5: Ebn knows him, he knows him even better known, I'm about to know him.

3:02:31 Speaker 4: It seems nice. What do you do you think? So his narrative is that Nixon, who is head of the fifty four to twelve Committee under Eisenhower along with being his VP, he was working with Howard Hughes to create this quote unquote S Force, which was this kind of elite, kind of sleeper cell unit, and they were going to take out Shakhobara and Castro, and that ends up not happening. That they have pigs occurs, and you know, Eisenhower leaves and JFK comes in and they sort of, you know, move into the roll, get rolled into these other special ops programs moong Loose and Foxtrot, and then once JFK fires, Dullest, Dullest is kind of licking his wounds at the Brown Brothers Harriman and he recommissions this s force which is full of these Cuban exiles who've been militarized originally to take out Shakovar and Castro, but in fact this time around to take out JFK.

3:03:31 Speaker 4: Do you think that there's any credence to this story.

3:03:36 Speaker 5: There are quite a few stories. When I was six years old, my father moved us through the first of Providence, Rhode Island, and then to community further alone no again should be and and suddenly I found myself in the community which was totally dominated by the Sicilian mafia. M

3:04:12 Speaker 5: In fact, most of Rhode Island was interesting, and the dominant mafia figure for Boston was the overseer was Providence.

3:04:27 Speaker 5: And I grew up in this environment where in school, if one kid, one male, he had to be a bully. Out of nowhere, around near closing time for school, a couple of guys would be guys would come in rab him, take him out, beat the shit out of him. And then they told us next day he won't bully you anymore. And so I'm later on began to absence the police house at work. Here they said, no disorganized, no disorganized flan,

3:05:13 Speaker 5: no breakings, no bullying, no wife being, no disorganized frien organized frame definitely is protection. And all the stories about my FIA movies, I mean I grew up in all that. Yeah, this is the way it works. And I met a lot of these people not my culture. I wasn't even a Catholic, the wrongan Catholics, but I learned a lot about it. Now, let me tell you it's very interesting to me. The first time I met the Prime Minister of Italy in nineteen seventy three, Pete Peterson, who had been sent over by Nixon to do hadn't purled the world.

3:06:06 Speaker 5: I sat down, Uh, he said, mister Mountgren, I've been looking forward to meet you. Pete. You won't understand this. Let me explain. Hell here knows all about the Sicilian way. He grew up in it. He understands it. I know that what he looks. So let me explain before you start some lecture on the confusion of state and crime and Italy, we had all these communists, problemmakers, red brigandies, all kinds of stuff. The only way the Church and the states could fight we had to use the machia because they could do things we couldn't do.

3:07:01 Speaker 5: Okay, so yes, there was a triumvirate that ran in me for a long time, and there was an alliance of the Pope, the Vatican, the elected government, and the city in market.

3:07:17 Speaker 4: We'll let the audience interpret that analogy. Yes, an answer to the JFK question.

3:07:23 Speaker 5: When I met Chris Herder had been governor of Massachusetts MM before he he he'd been in Congress and government masters before he became Secuary of state. So I asked him today, I said, how did he ever do that? I said, you are a strange shooter. Why did you ever take that job a governor of Massachusetts? He said, what do you mean? I said, y, you can't run the state of Massachusetts without running Boston. You can't run Boston without them. He said, oh, you asked. You asked the same question my wife's asked me.

3:08:06 Speaker 5: Why are you are you doing this stupid thing? Why do you want to take it on? He said? I puzzled, I thought, I thought, and he I haven't. I'm going to establish a principle and it works for me. I said, but mister principal, I announced that I will not meet with anyone for any reason outside the government without members of the press, President. And he said, no, one from the map could come to talk to me without me inviting the president. So they had to use in the direction and I could always waved them off saying I don't I'm not gonna even say is that a threat?

3:08:52 Speaker 5: I really ignore you? And he said I just insulated myself.

3:08:58 Speaker 7: And he was independently wealthiest, well, so the couldn't be bought.

3:09:01 Speaker 5: He said, they can't touch me. I'm really wealthy. So I felt that. I asked you how you're want to spare me a slew?

3:09:12 Speaker 7: But I think it's so interesting. How did the Prime Minister of Italy know? And the answer must be that because you grew up in that community you they knew your dad.

3:09:24 Speaker 5: Never told me about your about it. He knew all about it.

3:09:26 Speaker 7: Wow, you know so that's a different network.

3:09:28 Speaker 5: Yeah, and that same name. He said, I want you to you across the river the battle can meet Archbishop. My chinkins the head of the bank can Bank. So

3:09:48 Speaker 5: you please, whoever there, arrange the cars outside, don't drive you over your work and stop. You're coming from me see the archbishop you over there. My chink is from my Archbishop of Chicago. Big guy tam in his black robe, cowboy boots, leaning back booking your big fat humans cigar. He sat up the same way. He read all about you, grand to meet you, and mister how I think, he said him, he understands everything, but so billing me, I really explain to you. How will they explain more if you have questions later?

3:10:38 Speaker 5: And I looked up and said, we know about you from your boyhood with a lot of our associates in the mafia. So then he proceeded to talk about the trick quite partsite way of depending themselves against communism. Remember coming out of the pizza. How does he know all that social media? I don't know, but there was movement between specially and people living in I knew where I was, and I met a lot of these people. They never said, when you grew up, you can be one of us. I wasn't one of them. I wasn't Catholic.

3:11:26 Speaker 5: I wasn't So anyway, it was interesting.

3:11:31 Speaker 4: What sounds like the Italian government in the Vatican were tied into. They had mob ties in the US totally, and then that and that that connectivity allowed them to understand who you were to begin with, no question, that's amazing.

3:11:50 Speaker 4: Do you think there's like a deeper layer to politics that people are unaware of that, you know, I mean even outside of the talks of like a quote unquote deep state or you know, unelected bureaucrats running the government, Like is there something even deeper at play that's sort of transnational?

3:12:15 Speaker 2: People don't realize if I push a button, my call.

3:12:24 Speaker 1: Right now, this.

3:12:26 Speaker 4: Meant you could call Putin right now, this minute. Yeah, really you have you have a direct line to him right now?

3:12:40 Speaker 1: Yes, because you know I code is a story of right say about him?

3:12:47 Speaker 4: A second version of that, yep. And they were trying to establish a back channel and Obama shut down the back channel. That yeah, we've probably never needed this back channel more than we do today. Harold understood Putin's psychology, and with tensions between the US, Russia, and China running high, Harold's deep expertise on nuclear game theory and his former close friendship with conflict escalation expert Herman Kahan would be eminently useful.

3:13:32 Speaker 5: I was identified early as the person whose name they were familiar with, the chess player, and it builds slowly. In nineteen aged two or something, I was with Kiss and George Schuls and a couple of other people in Moscow as an age. We were invited to the ballet, and we came and we were going to be seated in the Tsar's box, and kissingerham as usual in marched ahead of everybody and went to the seat of the Tsar. And one of the hagb people said, Henry, not tonight, not tonight. That seat is for doctor Malgren.

3:14:31 Speaker 5: And he said, but it must be some misunderstanding. He said, no, no, we know him. He is the shadow of his uncle.

3:14:44 Speaker 5: You are not one of the world's great test players you may think of, and he may not be yet, but he comes from that bloodline, and in honor of him, he will sit in that church tonight. Now it was intended humiliation of kissing.

3:15:03 Speaker 4: Kissinger must have not been very I.

3:15:07 Speaker 5: Was already more refreshing around other issues. He really got pissed off and trying not to show it, but it was out of proportion, preposterous anyway. Yeah, he didn't forget it. I didn't forget, but I never rubbed it in. As the Soviet system was collapsing, the Russian Republic was falling together, and Yelsen became the p the first president at that time nineteen ninety two. I was invited to a meeting in Saint Petersburg, Russian and by the mayor of Saint Petersburg, and at that time the deputy mayor was blood of My Prutin, and a number of Americans from business and diplomats and and the b and top Soviet officials outgoing incoming Western officials.

3:16:24 Speaker 5: Heavily loaded with them what they called the Seal of Baker, the security people who were looking for new careers and gerty gathering. I don't know, seventy five, maybe up to a hundred people in the hall as the meeting opened, before you know, when you have drinks and before you sit down, all them and somebody comes to grab me and I recognize Ieman, you have Jennie Freemerkov Primakov. Who was he? He was officially National Academic Council or something. He was an official body supervising research in all fields, and he was in charge of Asia from China to the Middle East.

3:17:20 Speaker 5: But he had known Henjimi connections. In fact, many people thought he was official anyway. I had measured him in earlier years and he rabbed me by the elbow, that marched me over. Somebody you need to meet and he introduced me to Putin. He said, this man is rising. He will soon be very important cash and you should know him. Now I knew enough to realize that that was not an action to that. At the meeting, femer Cop looked for me, found me in a crowd, brought me over. It was intentional. Now Pertain was staying there talking to Kissinger.

3:18:14 Speaker 5: He didn't know Hissinger and and premer Crop said, excuse me, Henry, but Ladhiman needs to know someone else. He has no looking to me, said Helen's union into that anyway, he drew me away from Kissender. Hissinger believed he was the only channel, and it was through Femerkuf. But Dobrian may have done this was more than me. But I had a channel directly with the Russians and his choice. And but he introduced me through Pema Coalf. When I went to Moscow, Pema coalp wanted to get to know me.

3:19:07 Speaker 2: I was.

3:19:08 Speaker 5: I was treated not as partisan of anything, but as someone who could be trusted to carry a carry an idea, explore it to get an answer back. M it's something different. I was very mindful of not getting crossms with our intelligent system his and your thought. He was the number one communication channel in Russia and Americia, in the back channel. There's a history of why he and I had a conflict, very elaborate history, and because of my assignments and his predilection. Was it already related to the I went to Rome in US trade legislation that had a restriction on opening trade relations with Russia because of the Russian treatment of emigrats of Jews from Russia to either to the US or to Israel.

3:20:21 Speaker 5: And for a while I worked for the Senate in center. Abe Riverkoff was the senior Jewish leader in the American system, and as an aide told me, Jake Damage is my partner, He's number two, and the chief executive of Seagrooms in New York is the treasurer. It's it's a structure. We have guidance the APEC and other bodies, but this we represent the Jewish community and I want you to take on the task of negotiating with the Russians about this issue of Jewish immigrants. I said, am I'm not Jewish. He said, I knew that.

3:21:19 Speaker 5: I've been looking for someone like here for a long time. I had to be somebody who didn't have Jewish grandmothers or grandfathers or cousins. I didn't want family quils in the middle. I wanted someone with clean hands. You're the first person I met who's as smiled as us Jews. Oh God, so I said, well, I think that said.

3:21:43 Speaker 5: We had our laugh about them, and I did act as the intermediary. In fact, I was sent you Jerusalem, and you got briefed by both sides and Beth Shinbeth, and fully I may have several days of full playing

3:22:08 Speaker 5: explanation of what it goes on between usually in the US in the dark world of intelligence startled the CIA. Who the helm was I? But you know I was operating at the request of the senior and political figure in the Jewish community, so nobody's gonna mess with me anyway. But the Russians were impressed by being being kicked out. To do this out of all the different people, I couldn't. So all of this was in play in the background. So somehow the old subject guard, working through Yellison, said, Putin has to meet Harold.

3:22:54 Speaker 5: We don't understand Harold. He always pops up in the important places leg or something.

3:23:02 Speaker 7: Yeah, and then you actually dine with him one on one, you converse with him, you talk about what you learn from that relationship.

3:23:13 Speaker 5: You can find I wrote at the time of the the invasion of Ukraine. I wrote, by impressions putin, pressure of.

3:23:32 Speaker 2: The financial figure, pressure, Matt.

3:23:41 Speaker 3: Stuff, I see.

3:23:44 Speaker 4: Figures, public, see what's coppen?

3:23:51 Speaker 5: They on heard I wrote two essays about Putin.

3:23:59 Speaker 7: You should feed them on. Just a little link to them, because they're very important.

3:24:04 Speaker 6: There's so much.

3:24:05 Speaker 5: It's like, as I said, I didn't meet Prutin by accent. They arranged for me to meet. They did not ask me to write, but I did. I wrote what I thought he was up to when he was reasoning he was. I didn't criticize him praise him. All I said was this is his state of mind. He liked the two assets that I wrote. How do I know because he read them.

3:24:46 Speaker 2: I said, push the primary Japan.

3:24:55 Speaker 3: M.

3:25:00 Speaker 2: Well, that's the way, I said, was M.

3:25:04 Speaker 1: And the seconds the chief of the National Security Council and told.

3:25:14 Speaker 5: Him, I H wow, answered the book.

3:25:22 Speaker 3: Wow.

3:25:23 Speaker 2: So happy to tell him by him, is there something you believe our president insurance zom And I said yes,

3:25:42 Speaker 2: I've given him a counsel to.

3:25:44 Speaker 1: Improve his speech in English, and he's made lesbouts.

3:25:53 Speaker 2: So I would thank you to tell him from me.

3:26:01 Speaker 1: The flight in New York m and its addressed to the General Assembly. Call Living Morning America and ask for a seven or eight mis interview.

3:26:22 Speaker 2: I said, suddenly.

3:26:26 Speaker 1: Your president will become by you then entirely new figure in the art of Americans because instead of dances, May May Iica engineer engenious. You're leaving robots to across America.

3:26:55 Speaker 1: They'll see him, young people, it will.

3:27:03 Speaker 2: Your staff. I don't see the base.

3:27:09 Speaker 1: I heard rage, and sure enough suddenly he was everybody's friend.

3:27:18 Speaker 3: M hmm.

3:27:19 Speaker 5: When I went from do od Lyndon Johnson, I arrived in October sixty four, I get called over by General Counsel LBJ. Mounts to go on a very secret mission to Tokyo. To me, it's already arranged. I hadn't know, but it's already arranged. You will meet the Japanese Prime Minister. He will be accompanied some Japanese named me as Oura, who's the English is perfect. He's an efficient in the cabinet me as our recently he was Prime minister. Anyway, So I said, okay, what do I do, said you were arranged the tickets.

3:28:23 Speaker 5: You do not tell anyone in your agency what you're doing. You just take some days of Chris heard her, knows you A proved it. He said, you're just the right person. Who else Chris heard of? Okay, I was in his aid, but no one else knows. Don't tell. Don't tell anyone in your agency. Don't tell. Don't visit the American embassy, they department, and don't tell anyone. You will find the entry in the agent will be handled swiftly. You would deliver this message and then you get an answer. Write it down personally when you get back.

3:29:16 Speaker 5: If you want to type it up, it's helpful, but don't address it to the present. Don't stay on the envelope eyes only. It will be ja because then thirty people want to see it. So and I said, well, how do I get His name is personal secretary. She will expect that. She will tell them to give her the envelope. If it comes, you deliver it yourself. They're left you in the door. You hand over the envelope. That's it. No return address. Don't have your name on day anything. Okay. Well, the origin of this was the Countedy people who are all over Johnson the minute he became president.

3:30:05 Speaker 5: Are you gonna keep all the commitments of John Kennedy? He said, But can I do? They put put pressure on this? I said, of course, I really, But he said some of those commitments involved something I don't agree with. It was cracking down on the imports of foreign nations of tefestiles. We it's been a delicate subject between I was in our administration. We already have this elaborate system put import controls. But I I think this is all, you know, just the favor of certain group of people. So I want to guide the dialogue of Japan.

3:30:49 Speaker 5: So I want to say I'm not gonna argue with you about this. We're not gonna have legislation, but I really would like your co operation to ask the Energy to slow the pace of expansion for at least a year or two, so that I don't have your addresses. Well, we had some other issues with Japan at the time. So I met Sato and so he was quite happy and said yes. Of course him back passed it on. No one never knows I made that trip.

3:31:31 Speaker 7: This is the beginning of what we now know is voluntary export restraints, and it was a means of keeping the peace between the US and Japan on this super politically sensitive issue for LBJ. And the point is that this is often how presidents do things. They don't always use system, they have others.

3:31:58 Speaker 5: At the time, after jeral has why can't you use secure lines of communication, he said, yeah, well Singute who has their system, but a lot of people listen to it, right, Sigut who doesn't deny CIA access. And then since Singue who is part of the army, most of the military knows whatever goes, So you can't use that.

3:32:33 Speaker 7: Not to mention the Russians and everybody.

3:32:35 Speaker 5: Anybody, Well, don't forget to that, we have all these other you said, you say something, It's just like if you ever send a message to the president saying I's only the president. It's an automatic imitation. Everybody asked everybody before the president sees it, they'll have to see it and write a preparatory comment. I I'll give you an example I was given when uh Nixon you came in. There was a Special Commission on the Transition, a bunch of papers from Dean Rusk to Johnson Nick. You know, Nixon was coming in with pelitation to see it.

3:33:26 Speaker 5: And there was a bunch of papers with a letter from George Ball to the President pleading with let's downsize this whole Vietnam thing before it low's up in your face. But cover notes that size stapled on from Dean Rusk. It was George added again, finally getting the way of what we must do. I mean Dean russ totally dismissed it of everything. Now interesting. I was told later coming I know this by his daughter Linda Bird, that he really valued George Bauld. He read every member of George Boulder.

3:34:15 Speaker 5: He thought he was the only guy in the foreign policy system that his brains quecially, George Bauld was always opposed to heightening the war. So I mean I knew the daughter because I dayd a girl who was best friends of Linda Bird. So I spent evenings with her and her boyfriend playing cards. So I learned lots of stuff my own intelligence system.

3:34:46 Speaker 7: I'm telling.

3:34:51 Speaker 5: Well him and male It was sometimes beneficial, I can say you over a lifetime more not beneficial anyway, but that kind of process, there was no secure unless you said somebody, and then you can't do it the way it's visible.

3:35:34 Speaker 4: Well, I love you. You're in my research. Your name always pops up next to malmgrim Ink, which I always found like hilariously nondescript and non threatening and sort of, you know, just extremely generic.

3:35:48 Speaker 5: Well, I never advertised anything specific.

3:35:58 Speaker 4: You seem to just keep getting having these interactions with people kind of on the inside. I mean, now we're getting a trip your territory. And who knows if this is correct, but it's almost like a sort of mental network or a network of serendipity or something where you look at your interactions with Carl Compton as young as you were, and then Richard Bissel saying it's almost like I need to tell you this for some sort of unknown reason. And so there's something about that that I find fascinating, and particularly on nuclear nuclear and.

3:36:31 Speaker 7: I mean, how many Americans have sat down and had dinner with President Putin and understand how what he thinks about nuclear weapons and how they might be used, which I think is as a story you should tell a little bit about because it all goes back to the thirteen year old requesting these documents and somehow ends up Now I've been told, but Dad won't confirm that he worked on preventing nuclear crisis on more than one occasion, but you only tell me about one. And people in the intelligence world are like, oh, your dad is good.

3:37:13 Speaker 7: What's going on? So I won't make you go there. But you have met with the leader of Russia on nuclear matters after all of this that we now know, Wow, this I think is related to this subject, and it's important to discuss. And today, do we have a system for deconflicting the US and Russia if these things show up? And what is happening practically as we speak, we have unidentified objects flying all over the United States.

3:37:45 Speaker 6: Yes, not just in New Jersey.

3:37:47 Speaker 7: No, over nuclear facilities, over weapons, arsenals, But it's happening globally.

3:37:52 Speaker 4: And the speculation on the people deepest on the subject, people like Robert Hastings through an amazing book called UFOs and Nukes, and all of his whistleblowerslmost one hundred and seventy who work they have Q clearances at these atomic sites. Their intuition, you could just you could say a whole host of things as far as why these UFOs show up. You could say they're offensive, which I just don't believe because they haven't really done too much. That's offensive. They've done really nothing.

3:38:18 Speaker 7: We shoot at them, but they don't shoot it up.

3:38:19 Speaker 2: They don't shoot at us.

3:38:20 Speaker 4: So all of their first intuition as to why these UFOs show up around our most sensitive sites is because they're trying to show us that our ways are are you know, too brutal, and we're going to blow ourselves up and to kind of make us think about higher things. And so I don't know if you guys think that.

3:38:39 Speaker 5: But no, I think I think that's what it's all about. Plus, if you're true serious when you're here explosions, we can do lasting diamonds to the to the shell of the Earth.

3:38:57 Speaker 5: We're plumbing deeper and deeper in to the center. I mean, we don't know what happens if you're stuck.

3:39:04 Speaker 4: If you're stuck, well, there's an optimum of radiation necessary for evolution to occur because you have, you know, this kind of intersection between the magnetosphere of the Earth, which actually dictates biological morphology in a pretty fundamental way, and UV radiation, which creates the genetic mutations necessary for natural selection differential selection. And you are messing with this sort of equilibrium every time there's a nuclear spill. And the really interesting crazy part is you have a town in Japan next to the Fukushima Prefecture called Lino, and it's dedicated to UFOs and they're like over fifty percent of the residents all believe in UFOs.

3:39:45 Speaker 4: There's a museum dedicated to UFOs and they're during the spill, they say the UFOs came down, they helped clean up the spill. This this monk who guards this temple in Japan, and so it's just fascinating. It's like there's the stewards of the earth.

3:40:00 Speaker 5: They may well be, but it begins with the every fashion. As I said, I felt all the way along these unexpected inter related events, there was a there was a message to the madness somewhere and I my mother time me, just keep doing what you're doing.

3:40:29 Speaker 4: The other purpose.

3:40:30 Speaker 5: You have a purpose and you may not know it until the end, but well, I means I may be approaching the end. On my doctors say, I'm I will outlast my mother. She lived one hundred Wow, what's yes? Yeah, But my doctor's saying, no, you have no physiological problems, no troubles with your knees and hips and all that.

3:40:58 Speaker 7: Stuff at eighty nine.

3:41:00 Speaker 4: To be clear, you're you're already lasting longer than most of my interview subjects.

3:41:03 Speaker 2: So Kennedy had a point of question. He O, going to a mess shoulders, don't.

3:41:21 Speaker 1: You know?

3:41:21 Speaker 2: I don't know what the first broadly I came to the office, I said, why am I going? I asked? When I said, Well.

3:41:41 Speaker 1: Who had a record?

3:41:43 Speaker 2: He said, the dame. Then you met the present in my dam that day your name went all the important books of talent.

3:41:59 Speaker 3: Mmm h.

3:42:02 Speaker 2: That that that who keeps?

3:42:05 Speaker 3: Yeah?

3:42:06 Speaker 2: Wow?

3:42:09 Speaker 1: There not only say but you know a modestic holy aient. They also have those symatype the world. So are you who are chosen?

3:42:24 Speaker 3: Yeah?

3:42:26 Speaker 2: And when you were brought here so you are fresh. No, it's not not for any of us under the world that the word worse.

3:42:55 Speaker 4: Could Harold have been using the moniker majestic in its counterintelligence context, absolutely, But he used the word so secondhand, so casually that he was clearly speaking about some genuine group, in my opinion, a group probably related to continuity of government and contingency plans. Contingency plans for general catastrophes like nuclear events, not just extraterrestrials. These sorts of committees have gone by many names, fifty four to twelve, the three Zho three Committee, the Committee of forty, and they probably involved subcommittees we'll never know the names of.

3:43:35 Speaker 4: On our drive to the hospital, with his oxygen hovering at unsafe levels, Harold maintained the cheeriest of attitudes and could not stop telling stories about his past. There was so much he wanted to get off his chest. We discussed the fact that Putin was trying to set up a diplomatic back channel with Harold in two thousand and nine, but that Obama shut that prospect down. We talked about Harold helping Schoi Shiro Toyota set up the Toyota headquarters in Kentucky. We even talked about the fact that Harold was one of the first people on earth to break the four minute mile after Roger Banister.

3:44:08 Speaker 4: Apparently, Harold could repeatedly break the four minute mile in his twenties. Right as we got to the hospital, we got into Tripier territory. Harold said he was engaged in deep research around the mid century anti gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown. We discussed Brown's obsession with time travel because gravity is linked with time in general relativity. We talked about how towns in Brown really believed he had found a missing puzzle piece for time travel. I then asked Harold about the existence of a coordinated group trying to deliberately affect timelines.

3:44:42 Speaker 4: A very talkative Harold Malmgren went noticeably silent. Well, Harold, I want you to take care of yourself, man, And I know we've been talking for an hour now, and I wish I could be with you in person, missy Man, And I want you to just get better, you know. Yeah, I really hope you rest up. And you have my numbers so you can call me at any time if you ever need help with anything. And yeah, okay, my house, it's good.

3:45:22 Speaker 16: Good.

3:45:29 Speaker 4: Under the pseudonym Chase Brandon, a CIA agent turned Hollywood liaison, wrote a book in twenty twelve. The book discusses a celestial object that telepathically communicates with its recipients. The object also relays critical information about future timelines. A secret committee is brought together by synchronicities and extraterrestrial beings that seem to know about every one of its members. The Committee are an elite group of military and scientific thinkers designated to deal with the issue of non human intelligence.

3:46:06 Speaker 4: The main character of the book is a mathematical whiz kid named Chalmers, who is plucked by the head Haunchos of the Office of Strategic Services and then this special Committee. He helps the committee navigate the future of humanity and manage complex timelines. He's also taken in and out of a liminal, timeless dominion where he's taught important things by other worldly beings that go to determine his purpose in life.

3:46:38 Speaker 4: The common trope in the book is that Chalmers had a purpose. It was a deeply installed, driven purpose, even if it was subconscious. The first page of this book quotes Francis Bacon, truth is so hard to tell it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible. When Harold called me again and prior to his passing, I thought I'd bring up time travel one last time. Harold, do you think your life is connected with time travel in any way?

3:47:18 Speaker 2: I've thought about this many many times, and may as yes.

3:47:26 Speaker 1: Nothing else explains. When I'm calling on Am I the best why I didn't have the least ammission.

3:47:40 Speaker 2: I was so aking. I knew something. I don't know why I know it.

3:47:47 Speaker 3: I know it.

3:47:50 Speaker 1: In fact, what I didn't saying was what came through. I mustn't know this knowledge at that time. So if you ask me, did I have a purpose?

3:48:06 Speaker 3: Yes, mm.

3:48:09 Speaker 1: Now my mother was the most remarkable person. She read books like that, no tomorrow. She read so many books.

3:48:22 Speaker 3: M h and uh.

3:48:27 Speaker 2: She kept saying, you man, you would have to understand you cannot decided by yourself. You were given those there was a purpose.

3:48:42 Speaker 3: Mm.

3:48:43 Speaker 2: Have to you have to consume your purpose.