#111 "UFOs Down Under"- With Grant Lavac: Australia & The Phenomenon

0:00 Asking ARA to show the evidence as well to back up the claims that they're making within their report and the glaring there's two glaring omissions from the report. One was what kind of what kicked all of this off in twenty seventeen was the two thousand and four USS mimics takes. There is completely no mention whatsoever of the minute that the limits of the tic TAC incident of the two thousand and four And we can talk about the history, but basically in the mid ninety nineties, in nineten ninety six, the Royal Australian Air Force basically couldn't wiped its hands.

0:38 Clan said move along, folks, there's nothing to see here. And they haven't touched the topic since they ceased all of their investigation. So you know, Australia has just been burying its head in the sand. Members of the Defense Services, you know, coming forward to the likes of Ross coulta of the day, in this day and age that we live in now, you know F thirty five have polots that are saying, look, we're seeing things in Australia in space that we can reconcile or or or identify the line that it's held for a long time that you know, this is just a US problem.

1:11 It's nothing for a strategy to be concerned about.

1:29 All right, guys, welcome back to Total Disclosure. My name is Tay and I'm the host and creator of the show. Hey, we're here and we have a lovely, lovely show. Uh. We got the UFOs down Under with Grant Levac. Today is going to be so fun. I've been looking forward to the show for quite some time now. Grant as an Australian UAP activist, researcher and podcaster residing in Melbourne. Grant has at a fascination for U A P S or UFO since he was a young child, and considering himself to be just an ordinary guy who believes in extraordinary things, with a healthy degree of skepticism and open mind thrown in there together for good measure.

2:12 Uh. Grant frequently leverages the Freedom of Information Act to better understand Australia's involvement, or rather lackter of, of the UAP issue, and engages both his elected representatives and like see media in the hope that they'll take this topic seriously. Another guy that we know from down Under that's doing that very well is Ross Coltart, and you know they're both good friends. It's time that we welcome mister Grant Levac to the show. How you doing, brother, I'm good, my friend. Thanks talk for having me on.

2:47 It's good to be with you and look forward having a chat. Yeah. I mean, aside from from you and Ross Coltart, I want to start off by saying, why, why why is your country so far lacking? Yeah, I mean it's a good question, and it's a question that I've been trying to wrap my head around for ever since I you know, really became a sponge and tried to soak up as much as I could throughout COVID. You know, so many of us we were locked at home and we kind of had a lot more time on our hands. So I've you know, with all of the activity that's been happening in the United States really since the New York Times Bombshaw articles in twenty seventeen, it got me asking me a question, Well, you know, what is Australia doing about UAPs?

3:39 And unfortunately, very very little, but not a lot of people know that Australia has almost as long as their history investigating the uapufo topic as the United States does you know, dating back to the early nineteen fifties, a couple of years after Roswell, the Department of Air which later on the Royal Australian Air Force, and another now defunct government agency, the Department of Supply and the Joint Intelligence Organization. There was an effort, a concerted effort to investigate uap UFOs in Australia from the fifties through to the mid ninety nineties.

4:17 And we referred to the vernacular that was used in Australia in those decades past was uas unusual aerial sightings. That was the you know, that was the term that was used down Under. And you know, there was there was this effort, and we can talk about the history, but basically in in the mid ninety nineties, in nineteen ninety six, the Royal Australian Air Force basically just wiped its hands. Claian said, move along, folks, there's nothing to see here. And they haven't touched the topics since they ceased all of their investigation into UAP because they their reasoning was they couldn't find any compelling or other scientific reason to continue to devote resources to the instigation of uap But that was back in nineteen ninety six.

5:02 Fast forward to twenty twenty four and we live in a very very different world and the landscape on the uap UFO topic is very different than what it was back then. So you know, Australia has just been burying its head in the sand and towing the line that it's held for a long time that you know, this is just a US problem. It's nothing for Australia to be concerned about. We know what's in our skies. We have you know, air dominance, when in actual fact they don't, because Australia has some pretty significant historical uap UFO cases, and you have members of the Defense services coming forward to the likes of Ross Coultart today in this day and age that we live in now, you know f thirty five pilots that are saying, look, we're seeing things in Australia their space that we can't reconcile or identify.

5:54 What should we do because we don't want to report it to our higher ups at the Royal Australian Air Force because you know, there's still this era of ridicule and stigma that plagues this top this topic down Under and that people don't want to have a blemish, you know, put against their flight record if they if they report an observation of UAP and they what's the point of reporting it because there's no there's currently no reporting or reporting mechanisms in place whatsoever. And that's what I think to kind of, you know, wrap up my long winded answer for you.

6:29 I think that's the real national security threat that Australia is faced with. If you've got both military, civil and general aviation pilots and you know, members of the defense services that are seeing unidentified anomalist phenomena or anomalous objects in Australian airspace or in Australian waters that they can't identify, and they're choosing not to report it out of a fear of ridicule and stigma and being ostracized. That's the real threat because what if one of those objects was a foreign adversarial system, like belonging to Russia or China.

7:04 That is a huge national security threat. And what if it's something that's more exotic beyond the prosaic explanation, what if it's something in the catch all other bin that ODI and I put in its June twenty twenty one Preliminary Assessment on UAP. So it's just unfortunately Australia is continuing to bear its head in the cander of the topic. The needle is starting to move a little bit, and I can talk about why. I think that's the cases we go through, but that kind of gives you a little bit of a history lesson on I guess Australia's involvement in the past and where they're currently at their current position, right and it is I feel that they're obviously like like you know, when we talked about it before, a lot of people in the US they think that this is a United States centralized phenomena, but they don't realize that it's it's global.

8:06 And like you said, you know, the the the asses have just as long a record investigating this. And I think that would be true if you said about any country uh that takes itself seriously uh in in its advancement, right, China, Russia, Pakistan, I mean, Pakistan, uh, you name it. If they have any capability and they're not in looking into this, then they're doing themselves a disservice. That's quite frankly, how I see it to to I mean, this latest historical report by Arrow is just to get your to get your we we don't have to waste too much time on that hot garbage.

8:50 But since there is a part two coming out, you do use the FOYA system a lot in your own country. What do you think of about this latest attempt by the d D and the office of doctor shank or formerly doctor Shanker Patrick. Yeah, I mean, look for someone that is completely new to the topic and and hasn't invested the time, nager and effort that we have to research it and know the history in the backstory. I mean, on a positive front, it does provide a good timeline of historical events, you know, from your project signed the mid forties through to where we are today.

9:31 So you know, it's it's informative from that perspective. But it's obviously you know, there are there are a number of factual errors that are included. There's no substantiation to any of the claims that are that are documented in Ara's report. I mean everyone's asking David Grush to show the evidence. Well, you know we should be asking Arra to show the evidence as well. To back up the claims that they're making within their report and the glaring there's two glaring omissions from the report. One was kind of what kicked all of this off in twenty seventeen was the two thousand and four Ussnimets case.

10:11 There is completely no mention whatsoever of the minute that the Knimets or the tic Tac incident of two thousand and four, which we know that or SAP, which was had its moniker or a nickname of a tip, investigated the Nimetz incident quite comprehensively. And we know that Colin Kelleher and George Knapp have stated publicly on the record in both their books as well as podcasts that it was or SAP that produced a one hundred and forty one page technical analysis of the Nimets incident, in addition to a fourteen page report that the former head of the UAP Task Force, John Jay Stratton using the pseudonym of Jonathan Axelrod in the books that have been put out there thus far, that Jay Stratton also did a fourteen page report on the Nimets.

11:12 So why was Nimets completely omitted from Ro's historical report. Hopefully it makes its way into volume two, but I'm not too sure that it will because Volume two apparently is supposed to be everything from the thirtieth first of October of last year through to now, so I could be mistaken, but I just found that to be a glaring omission from Arro's report. That was the first big thing I noticed the second thing, and I was encouraged to see Eric Weinstein kind of agree on this as well. That on page twenty six of Arrow's report, where they talk about foreign and academic investigatory efforts, well, it references Canada's efforts, it references France,

12:00 it references some of the UK's endeavors over the years, but it completely leaves Australia off the map. And that's significant because and Eric Weinstein and Jesse Michaels have talked about this a number of times in documentaries and spaces on X that there was a nineteen seventy one minute paper that was authored by Australian nuclear scientist Harry Turner for the Joint Intelligence Organization and it's a comprehensive assessment from the nineteen basically nineteen forty seven through to essentially nineteen seventy one when this report was authored by Harry Turner.

12:39 It comprehensively, comprehensively assesses the United States efforts to investigate, understand the nature and extent of UAP, and it goes through a very detailed chronological timeline. And what's fascinating that's included in this nineteen seventy one document, which is publicly publicly through the National Archives of Australia is it references the efforts being undertaken by a number of physicists in the United States in the nineteen fifties to research and crack anti gravity. And that is also completely omitted from Ara's the link the potential linking of the UFO topic and the investigations by the United States, the Air Force, the US more broadly, and this effort to research anti gravity.

13:33 And for anyone that hasn't read that nineteen to seventy one report, it's available in the National Archives of Australia American Alchemy, which is Jesse Michaels's YouTube channel. Even if you just watch his most recent documentary on Tee Townsend Brown, he covers that quite extensively, so it's it's a truly fascinating document. It was just a real I think shame that it wasn't included in Arrow's report. Yeah, and what was the other what's that other report that wasn't included? I can't remember it was it the Italian?

14:11 So there was so so France has also done some comprehensive yeah report, Yeah, that was completely omitted as well. So it's like it's like they it's it's again. And so rather than I can't even believe I'm about to say this, rather than grabbing one of those and citing something from one of those, we decide to cite a wiki fan page. That's that's that's where Arrow goes with it, instead of using uh, these you know reports made like the one you spoke about, the Cometa report. No wiki fan page uh, and then continues his his uh, his recent media frenzy, saying that there's nothing to see here.

15:05 And look my my take on on doctor Sean Kirkpatrick. I mean, number one, he never wanted the job. He was ordered to take the job, and in the interviews that he's done since retiring from fred Federal Service, he's he's stated that publicly that he was essentially told that you're going to have to take this, You're gonna have to stand up this new organization. You have to do it. And in every interview that you know, I've I've never met doctor kirk Kirkpatrick. I've only seen him in interviews and heard him on podcasts.

15:40 But at face value, he doesn't. He's never come across as being all that enthused about his position as the then director, our former director of the All Domain Resolution Office ARO. He he comes across as he never wanted the job. It's a waste of time. You know, he's just doing it as his last deliverable for the Department of Defense before he retires. And now he's off working at oak Ridge, which has its own links to eufology with the likes of Battel and so on. So I think there's you know, there is certainly a degree of a controlled narrative and a strategic narrative being being played here.

16:25 Because Number One, when you had this media event where ARROW was talking about the report that was held by current acting Director of ARROW, Timothy Phillips, there was only select members of select media outlets that were invited. Your News Nation was left off the list. Stephen green Street wasn't invited. You had other networks that were not told about it. At all, and only I only found out about it because that information links. So you know, they're they're inviting friendly media to a media event so that they can control the narrative and keep that strategic narrative in place.

17:14 Yeah, not even know if i'd call green Street on our side on the UFO community. So look, and irrespective, irrespective of what you think of Stephen green Street and he's reporting, I mean, the fact that there was a strategic decision made by Arrow and the Pentagon to be very selective and not invite you know, select media outlets, I mean that does not bird well for their commitment to maximum transparency, which doctor Sean Kirkpatrick stated in his op ed in Scientific American that you know ARO is committed to maximum transparency.

17:57 Well, that's completely bullshit. If you just look at the select media that was invited and select media that was excluded from that media event, it doesn't it doesn't bud Well. The optics of that don't don't sit well for transparency. Absolutely not, absolutely not. So let's jump into some territory you know that you're probably you know, like I said, you're you know, this is going to be something that you probably told or talked about many times, but you said you, you know, in the intro, you gave me a little blurb and you so you've been fascinated that with this since childhood, but you started really, you know, delving into it in recent years.

18:42 What sparked that initial childhood interest in the topic was some sort of sighting and you know, if it wasn't, uh, what was it? And then can you tell us about a little bit about what brought you to the chair talking to me? So first and foremost, I no, I've I've never had my own sighting. It's it's still very much on my bucket list. I like to say, I would love to have a siding before I should, you know, shuffle off this mortal coil. But when I was around about you know, in the mid eighties, it was about seven or six or seven years of age, I lived in I grew up in Sydney, Australia, and my father took me to a photo exhibition that was being held in Australia's tallest skyscraper was called Center Point Town.

19:39 It's kind of like the the Seattle's Needle kind of looks, you know, the same sort of shape. Anyway, there was this this photo exhibition being run in Sydney, and it was this is in the mid eighties, and it was a UFO exhibition and they had a lot of you know, these black and white photos blown up on canvases kind of displayed around the exhibition, and I remembered I can still see it distinctly to this day. One of the photos was the famous black and white photo of the McMinnville sighting, and I just remember staring at this photo for what probably felt like a good ten to fifty minutes, just trying to put myself in the shoes of that farmer or rancher and what they would have been feeling and experiencing when they captured what is that we now see on film in that photo from the nineteen fifties.

20:37 And so that kind of sparked my fascination as a young child, and then obviously growing up as a teenager in the nineties, you know, every Wednesday night at nine pm, you know, I'd be watching the expiles without fail, and then you do a big debrief with your schoolmates the next day at school. So that was another, you know, the pop culture component in the nineties, and then kind of my interests ebbed and flowed over the years, but like so many other people, it really wasn't until the New York Times articles came out December of twenty seventeen that really, you know, picked my interest against sparked my interest, and then obviously throughout COVID, so many of us had so much more time at home, and where I live now in Melbourne, Australia, we endured one of the longest lockdowns on the planet.

21:30 You know, we were locked in our homes more than any other city around the planet. So I really during that time just became you know, there was obviously a lot more activity happening when COVID started. You had the likes of Louel Azondo starting to be a lot more public and do a lot more engagements on podcasts and so on. So I just really became a sponge on the topic and tried to learn as much as I could from as many as I could throughout that time, and I was watching shows like UCR the Unidentified Celebrity Review in its day, and there was a three day activism event that I credit to lu Jamenez for really getting me off my ass and becoming a participant in this space because it was the Big Phone Home Too that really got me interested about well, you know, so many folks like me that are interested in the topic take it seriously.

22:35 So many of those folks that are in the US are now being motivated and encouraged through this three day activism event the Big Phone Home Too, to engage their elected representatives on the topic and demand that they start taking it seriously and ask some serious questions. And I made me think, well, what is Australia doing about UAPs? And so then I applied that same sort of methodology and started engaging my elected representative in Australia and the legacy media as well. So and exercising my right to information through using the Freedom of Information Act for you, and obviously developing a friendship with John Greenwall Jr. And learning a lot from from just what he's the information that he's put out there over time and in his work and documenting that in his live streams and so on.

23:20 So and it's through all of those efforts of my own that I have developed these you know, a network of really trusted colleagues and advisors that I've relied on for information, and I've shared information with them the likes of Australian veteran researchers, Keith Basterfield, who's done a ton of work in the space. Bill Chalker is another one. Obviously everyone knows Ross Coulthard, and they're you know, James Rigney who had a hand in, uh, you know, getting the Wilson Davis Docks out to the world.

23:52 So I've been very fortunate been able to learn from the likes of these folks and uh and and stand on the shoulders of those giants to try and find answers to questions that I've got on the topic, which is, well, what does Australia doing about ups? Why isn't it doing anything? And uh and and what will what will it take to move the needle on Australia's engagement on the topic? Absolutely I could, I could. That was perfectly but I get a long winded answer, but got there. So,

24:29 you know, with with what we said earlier, you know, you using or you know, looking up to people like John Greenwald, who does a fan also a good friend, has been on the show, and uh, I really respect what he does because you know, he doesn't play the he doesn't what I like about Johnny's doesn't play the sides right straightforward, what what can we what can we prove? Kind of guy, and I really I really really respect that kind of research. So can you share with us some of the most compelling research of the you know, Australian UFO cases that you've encountered in in your processes so well, most of my foyer efforts in Australia have been pertaining not so much to cases historical cases, but more the Australian government and the Australian Department of Defense's engagement or rather lack thereof, on the topic.

25:31 So for a little bit of a history lesson for your audience, you know, on the twenty seventh of October of twenty twenty one, a couple of months after the OD and I have released its preliminary assessment on UAP, there's an Australian Senator Green Senator, Senator Peter wish Wilson, who in Australian Parliament in a Senate Estimates hearing, which is kind of like a budget oversight hearing. He then took all of his alloted time, which was just shy of ten minutes because he's a part participating member on the Senate Essence Committee for Defense, Foreign Affairs and Trade.

26:09 He's not a full time member, but a he's a participating member. He used all of his time to press the then Chief of Air Force, Air Marshall mel Hupfield on Australia's involvement in the UAP topic. You know, is it taking UAP seriously like our US and five eye as ally was in following the release of odinized Prelimary Assessment on EUP, And it turned out from the Chief of Air Force Air Marshall mel Hupfel's responses that no, you know, Australia has no reporting or recording protocols in place. The Air Marshal quote didn't believe everything he read in the papers, so he thought the three videos you know, Go Fast, Gimbal and Flear one tic Tac were interesting but not compelling to him.

26:57 So he kind of just poo pooed the whole UAP issue altogether. But he was caught completely off guard with that line of questioning at that Senate estimates. So then fast forward to November of the following year, twenty twenty two, and obviously there'd been more activity and movement on the UAP topic in the United States since

27:25 twenty twenty one, and so Senator Wish Wilson took it upon himself to again ask in the Senate estimates the new than the new Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Robert Chipman, about well, with everything that is happening in the United States is Australia. Has Australia had any engagement with the US Department of Defense on UAP and has the Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Robert Chipman, had any briefings from the United States and UAP. And the response basically was no, same, Move along, folks, nothing to see here.

27:56 The Royal Australian Air Force is not taken seriously. The UAP is an issue for the US. And I'm completely paraphrasing, but that was the kind of line of the talking points, the strategic narrative that was being put out there by the Australian Department of Defense. Now, so I had then started utilizing in twenty twenty early twenty twenty two, I believe it was the Freedom of Information Act to try and better understand what engagement, what were discussion, what discussions and conversations were happening within the Australian Department of Defense on UAP following that initial hearing in October of twenty twenty one, and I was able to secure for release the most significant document from the Australian Department Defense on the topic of UAP UFOs since a Chief of Airstaff brief in the mid nineties on the topic, and essentially this document was a Chief of Air Force brief on UAP.

28:59 It basically stated that Australia has no interest in collaborating with any of its allies on the topic. We're not taking UAP seriously, even though the United States deems at a national security and safety of flight risk and we the Australia, the Royal Australia Air Force determined that UAP are likely to be one of three things you know, natural or other benign phenomena number one, Number two censor errors or number three foreign adversarial technology or maybe our own technology that's been misidentified.

29:33 So, without having investigated the topic of UAP since nineteen ninety six and up until that point in time, without having formally engaged the United States on the UAP topic to requested briefing, and having not been privy to any of the classified information that was included in the classified reports that were provided to Congress. You know from the ODE and I'SED Preliminary Assessment on UAP and reports thereafter, the royalistram Air Force is miraculously able to determine what UAP are likely to be without having any of that engagement.

30:06 So again wiping the hands saying there's nothing to UAP. Now, since then, there have been a number of other documents that have aibble to secure for the release through Foyer, essentially updates of that Chief of Air Force brief on UAP. And fast forward to October of last year and we now know through documents that I've been able to get released through Foyer, that not only is the Royal Australian Air Force and Australian Department of Defense now more engaged on the UAP topic, it's also extended its engagement to the Defense Science and Technology Group and the Australian Space Agency.

30:44 So if there's nothing to UAP, why is the Australian Department Defense expanding its engagement across these other services? And the big thing that really was frustrating and eye opening was folks might remember that in May of last year, then, you know, Director of r Doctor Sean Kirkpatrick attended NASA's public meeting on UAP with the Independent Study Team and he was asked a question about, well, does ARROW have any engagement across the Five Eyes, and doctor Sean Kirkpatrick revealed to the world that he had just hosted his inaugural Five Eyes Forum on UAP, and the five eyes for your audiences is the United States, Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

31:34 So that really peaked. My ears pricked up when I heard that, because that told me that if there was a Five Eyes Forum on UAP in May of twenty twenty three, then Australia you would assume, would have been involved in those discussions. But then we find out through questioning from Senator wish Wilson later in that year, as well as Foyer requests for myself of that the Australian Department Offense, when asked a question on notice from Senator wish Wilson, did Australia attend the United States briefing on UAP.

32:09 The Australian Department of Defense completely denied their attendance altogether at that Five Eys forum. And then, and that was in July of last year, and then Senator wish Wilson continued to pressed because he wasn't satisfied with that answer and a lot of the questions that Senator wish Wilson has asked of the Royal Australia Air Force Australian Department of Defense, I've actually drafted and submitted to him for consideration because I've developed a relationship with the Senator and haven't had ongoing engagement with him.

32:40 So to wrap the story up, you know, July of last year, Australian Department of Defense is saying no, no, we didn't attend the Five Eys Forum on UAP. But then fast forward to December of last year when they're getting continually pressed on well why did an Australia attend Did Australia even even invite to attend the Five Eyes Forum? If if it did, why didn't accept it? So at that point in time, in answering that question, the Australian Department of Defense has done a complete one to eighty backflip and admitted that it did attend the Five Eyes Forum on UAP.

33:15 So it said it hadn't in July, and then in December it's saying, oh, yes, A Representative of Defense representative based in the Australian Embassy in Washington, DC attended, So, why the complete lack of transparency back in July, Why the deception potentially why is this the ghosting on the UAP topic from Australia site. And it's just left more questions in my mind as to why Australia has been so reluctant to enter the conversation on the UAP topic when it's formally been welcomed with open arms by the US Department of Defense by way of five EYS forum on u AP last year and now ongoing engagement with RA going forward.

34:03 So the Australian Department Fence is playing a very strange game on its interest and engagement on the topic. And that and that sadly continues. That's that that's wild though, that that that they would because that's so clear. It's so it's so it's like a spit in the face, right when you find something like that, because either one of what you know, there's only a couple of different things that could be happening there. It's either straight up deception or it's incompetence, right, I totally agree with you.

34:42 And I think it's I think it could be a combination of both. Yeah, both very dangerous and both need to be addressed. So regardless right, regardless of anything they should be being it's it just it blows my mind. And is it going to take, you know, is it going to take how much more pressure you know from the public. Is it going to take in your country for them to start taking this seriously? And that doesn't just go for Australia. I'm not picking on Australia. This goes for a lot of places, totally well and and an interesting thing.

35:20 So this happened only a week ago that you know, historic discussions on UAP took place in European Parliament. Uh. There's a gentleman who chaired the the hearing, friend Francisco Gulierro. I think his name is, I can't pronounce his name, his surname, but so he had discussions on UAP in New European Parliament and there was representative from the SCU. They're asking questions. Ryan Graves uh tuned in remotely to weigh in and answer questions that the committee had. You had Peter Scayfish of the Soul Foundation there as well, and I found it interesting.

36:00 You know, I've been following the Sole Foundation quite closely because one of the part of their mission is to provide policy guidance and policy recommendations to other nations governments, so not just the United States, but other nations around the world, to assist them with policy implementation, governments to take the topic of UAP seriously. And the question that Peter Scaifish asked of the chair Francisco was, you know, what can the SOLE Foundation do to assist with policy guidance, recommendations, implementation and basically what will it take for the EU to start taking the topic seriously?

36:39 And the response that Francisco gave was political will. At the moment, there's a lack of political will, and that is very true of Australia. You know, there is a complete lack of political will and motivation to advance or elevate the conversation on this topic. There's only one senator still in Australia, Wish Wilson, who's taking this topic seriously. So unfortunately we don't have this point of critical mass in Australia that there is in the United States at the moment, where you've got the likes of Burchette, you know Anna, Paulina Luna, You've got you know, Jared Moskovic, You've got Burlison, You've got Andy Ogle's, all of these guys that are pushing hard for greater transparency on UAP.

37:21 We're not there yet in Australia and the EU is not there either. But if the EU starts taking this topic seriously and starts to implement some policies around recording and reporting for pilots, then I think you're going to find that the likes of the UK, Australia and New Zealand are eventually going to fall into line. And yeah, and it'll reach a point of critical mass where they have to enter into the conversation and be more engaged on it. What we had were to talk Yester, not yesterday, a couple of days ago live, and we were talking about Israel and these three Red halfers, right, and so, uh, they're getting ready to build the Third Temple in Jerusalem, which a lot of Catholics and Jewish people of Jewish faith think that will usher in Uh like it's a it's a ah, it's a precursor to the return of the Messiah.

38:28 I know, I'm gonna really like hit you hit, just hit you deep right now. But do you think that when I talk about the return of a Messiah right, could that I'm thinking about it looking through a lens of today's uh, like a lens of today right? What ancient people may have sat as gaw or divine? You know, we probably call extraterrestrial alien and that's what I'm under the guys as. So when I hear something like return of the Messiah, I think return of an extraterrestrial Do you think that all these dominoes are starting to fall since twenty seventeen in some weird way?

39:20 Do you think that the Five Eyes or whoever is behind mythical groups like the MJ twelve right like in the United States, whoever's running this behind the scenes? Do you think they know something might be coming? Oh? Man, that's a big question. That's a load of one. Well. Look, I mean, I'm I'm an atheist, but I'm very agnostic on the UAP topic. I think there is certainly a there there. What that there there is? I don't know. I mean, we know that there is a smallgasbord of options on the menu that it could be the et hypothesis is one that's probably the most fantastical and exciting one for most folks, or NHI is used more broadly.

40:08 I mean interdimensional has been talked about future human, extra temporal, ultra terrestrial. I mean, you've got all of these things that UAP could be in addition to natural phenomena, which and misidentification obviously planet venus medias. I mean, that's a big part of sightings. A lot of it is misidentification, you know, a lot of it is probably top secret technology that is in the holdings of the US government as well, and I'm sure has been in the holdings of other governments around the world too, So misidentification is and as well as you know, folks that choose to take advantage of gullible minds and those that are susceptible to suspending their disbelief and hoaxing sidings and those I think those, unfortunately will always be part of this conversation and other conversations, but misidentification and hoaxes will always play a big part.

41:07 But that's not what we're interested in. We're interested in the one to three percent of cases that are truly anomalist that ARO has not yet gotten to the bottom of and the three percent of cases that the Royal Astroland Air Force said it could not offer a ready explanation for before it washed its hands of the topic and said we can't we're not doing any more investigative work on this topic because we can't identify any other compelling of scientific reason to continue to vote resources. But my pushback to the Royal Astrained Air Force is, well, if you can't fully identify all of the cases, if there's three percent that are unresolved, and some will be due to a lack of data and so on, but isn't that enough of a compelling reason to get to the bottom of those three percent of I mean, look how many cases that were in Project blue Book that went unresolved.

41:54 It was about seven hundred and fifty something cases that were unresolved. Because at the end of the day, it only takes one to be something that is completely you know, exotic non prosaic if UAP are one of those things that I mentioned before. So as to what UAP are, again, it's it's anyone's guess. I certainly think it could be one or a number of those things. Certainly, that's what we're hearing from folks the likes of David Grush and others. You know, Carl Nell. You know, David Grush said he undertook interviews with forty primary witnesses over four years as part of in his official capacity.

42:38 You know, when when are we going to hear from other firsthand witnesses or whistleblowers that can support the claims that David Grush has made before Congress under oath? And I think that, you know, we've heard rumors of there being other witnesses, firsthand witnesses and whistleblowers that may be coming forward, but we're not there yet. So I think time will hopefully tell that we have more cooperative information or even evidence that will back up the claims of David Grush and hopefully support what he has said thus far.

43:15 But to go back to your question, are we being prepped for something that's a tough one? I mean you've heard from folks like, you know, former CIA guy John Ramirez, You've heard from UK Intelligence, UK Intelligence Frank Melbourne. Ross Coulthard has mentioned it once or twice as well, that there's you know, I think Angelie, who you've had on your show recently, there is your rumors of twenty twenty seven being a fairly significant I alluded to it as well. Yeah, significant years. So is there something that some folks know that is coming down the Who knows, but that's what people are saying, right, think about it.

44:06 The we throw we have a we have the hubble, right, we have it up there, and no matter what, we were always going to put a better one up there. But the drastic capability change and and and how drastic it was was. I mean there, they took so many risks getting that telescope up there. So many things could have went wrong where billions of dollars would have just been blown away and up in space. You don't do that for no reason. And and and I know everyone's like, well, you do it because you want to find out about the universe.

44:47 Yeah, you also do that through defense contracting, right, because you're scientists. Aren't the only ones who are going to be using that telescope. And I think I think that maybe maybe they've seen, like an asteroid, how we can predict when it may arrive and when it will cross paths with us through its trajectory, YadA, YadA, YadA, and the I think they may have noticed something with the Hubble couldn't make it out all the way, designed the James web to be able to do so and put it up there. Now they have confirmed that this thing is intelligently controlled and that it's on its way this way.

45:38 And it's not just the you know, twenty diameter thing. This thing's you know, probably the size of Texas. That's my that's my guess. I'm just playing around with some theory here. But and that is what is launch this real? Because everybody from Joe Rogan to the average person is asking why now, hm, why? Now?

46:12 Look, it's an interesting point and it kind of have you ever seen that movie Deep Impact with so you know they talk about Ellie el E extension level event and that in the film there were people within the government and the defense that knew something was coming this massive asteroid. So, you know, is it plausible that you know, Hubble and James Webb have picked something up in distant space that is anomalous or I mean, look, look what happened only in the last couple of days. There is a gentleman on YouTube.

46:49 He goes by his channel, I think he goes by Professor Simon And yeah, so he's had someone from within SETI, and I've only retelling what he said on his channel, but he's had a source reach out to him and say that SETI has picked up some pretty compelling new wow signals that you know, Doppler shift data, blueshift, red shift. And you can look at his channel, Professor Simon if you want to watch these two videos he's done where it talks about it, Yeah, linked them in the description below. It's a really fascinating, you know, fascinating interesting what he's talking about, because he's saying that give us Yeah, so he's basically saying that the his source is now telling him.

47:43 Now, whether it's BS, who knows. But you know, I I respect Professor Simon's content and the due diligence that he does. He puts out some really interesting stuff. He's rather skeptical, Yeah, he certainly is. He's he's very but you know, it was very interesting to see it come from him that he's saying sources, sources told him that SETI has picked up some pretty significant, compelling new signals that from these signals, you know, some pretty interesting data can be extrapolated, and he talks about images can be extrapolated, so you know, it's it's obviously the beginning of the beginning on this kind of bit of news, but you know, it'll be very interesting to learn how that story progresses in advances.

48:34 Is there something that is known about within the halls of SETI or within NASA that you know man the James Webb and its predecessor of the Hubble. Is there something that folks within the scientific and you know, community and government know that they're prepared airing to divulge to the general populace. If so, that would be a pretty pretty momentous and it begs the question, has there been this progressive drip feed of information to move to some form of disclosure on something you know? And has that been happening since twenty seventeen.

49:25 Time will hopefully tell, But I mean, what an exciting time to be alive. I mean, you know, I'm forty five years of age. My parents they lived through only one UAP hearing in their lifetime. That was in the in the in the in the fifties or the sixties or maybe you know, one or two, and we've had three in only the last three years. So the conversation on this topic is only getting stronger. And like you know, a snow, a small ball of snow that starts rolling down the hill, It's gathering speed, mass, size, traction.

50:03 It's only going to get bigger. And I don't think you know, there's any stopping this, uh this train now on this on this topic. Yeah, no, I I completely completely agree. I just I often wonder, right, just because it's it's the drip feed thing, and and it seems like not only in pop culture but in your everyday life, right, Uh, it's it seems that uh, this this notion of us not being alone is I mean, look at the Vatican. The Vatican came out and said they would baptize a non human intelligence. I mean, the Vatican is also issued statements on uh they've embraced the possibility of there being an h yeah, absolutely, and that that that we're all God's God quote unquote God's children.

51:07 So I just I don't think it's coincidence, right, It just it doesn't feel coincidental. And what you know, Grush talks about a deal, right, a deal that was struck maybe potentially who knows, Now if we look at that and we extrapolate maybe not a deal that was handshake deal. But could it could it have been more like a I don't really know how to describe it, but like an unspoken thing. And it's an unspoken thing that I mean, the governments know that that that scout ships are here, and they have been since the forties, and it's all been you know, like it's all been in lead up to this, that this event that's about to take place, like everything timing wise, you know, and that brings into the future human hypothesis.

52:13 How did they know that that we were going to get here this to the atomic age? And why would they be on course? You know, Uh, I didn't have something to do with advance AI and and unlocking AI. I just there's so many possibilities that that that that start laying the groundwork. Could there be some sort of eternal uh hype pop. Have you seen the marvel the marvels eternals? I haven't known, I haven't I haven't watched. So could there have been people here that blend in and are just not of this earth and they stay out of everything, but they're watchers and they report back you know, yeah, exactly, zoo hypods and then the Black Mads that so there are a lot of things that I think point to.

53:05 I think in your lifetime, should you live alone? Should we all both live long, healthy lives. I think in our lifetime will absolutely absolutely see contact. I'm not talking ladies and gentlemen, we are not alone. I'm talking full on contact. Yeah. And I think the public's been being braced for it. Yeah. Well, I mean I've I've said, you know, there are two things that I would love to see before I pass off this mortal coil of ours. That's one, uh, you know, humans to land on Mars, and two for us to have a definitive, definitive answer, you know, irrefutable evidence or conclusion as to what UAP are.

53:55 Uh. And you know, again, with everything that's been happening with in the last seven years, I mean it feels like everything's I mean, I've said this so many times. It's for those of us that are engaged on the topic and take it seriously and find it truly intriguing and fascinating and want want answers. It's almost like a full time job just to stay up to date with what's going on, which is a complete that's that's a far cry from where we were, you know, twenty thirty years ago, folks that you know, we're interesting.

54:30 I mean back then you'd only really converse on the UFO topic at conferences or in chat rooms that happened it's exciting or a case or something. So you know, we live in I mean, we're privileged to live in a day and age where information happens at the speed of a tweet. You know, you and I can have these conversations from afar in real time and engage with other people that are that take the topic seriously, so you know you and and that's why I think the UFO community is that a is in a unique position where the legacy media is now done and dusted in the sense that they're always trying to play catch up with what the late breaking news on is on the UFO topic.

55:17 It's folks in this community that are you know, the John Greenwalls that are doing the Foyer requests. Uh, you know other folks that you're doing their researcher have sources Ross Coultart and others. They're putting this information out first before it even hits the legacy media. So I think you're going to you probably start to see more and more revelations come through boutique media, not just social media, but the small media outlets as well that yeah and use Nation. To their credit, they've kind of taken the bull by the horns and led the charge and reporting the UAP topic, and they're leaving everyone else behind in the dust that don't want to touch it still, which is so so bizarre to me that you would think that if you're if you're the legacy media like your the A, b C or NBC or you know, one of the big stations in the States and one of the big papers, that you got to be the amount of the amount of public interest there is on this topic of you O, p UFO, it would be a no brainer from a ratings perspective, So why would you?

56:31 Why would you not cover it? You know? So I have contacts. So I did an internship at the news and I have many contacts there at a news channel in Boston, and I pitched literally straight up pitched a segment like once a week, nothing big, just to because it's a big channel in Boston. UH in New England people watch it and we have a lot of eyes on it. Given the data of UH News UH seven in Australia. M h. Given some given even a little bit of money and and and and and a platform, and the people will come.

57:28 Right. They may not be watching on live on television, but you know your YouTube channels are gonna are gonna bump up, your online presidents are gonna come up, right and Boston, Uh, you know, it's it's not New York City, right, there's not there's not stabbings every other night, right, It's it's not like that. So it's not like we have a ton of news or or fun engaging stories that that the public has. And I just think like and and zero no answer, laughed loud, basically zero answer, you know. And this is from you know, from someone that that has given them stories, right, has worked for free in their building, and they wouldn't even consider not even consider it.

58:19 So it's weird. And that's I mean, that's my big gripe with the Australian legacy media. I mean, we've got you know, there are a number of you know, breakfast shows here. You know, there's Australian version of the Today Show. There's a breakfast show on the seven network called Sunrise and you know, to their credit, whenever something significant happens in the US on this topic, like when David Grash came forward. You know, the the the I C i G had its skiff meeting with with members of the Congressional Oversight Committee.

58:57 You know, they cover those stories, but it's just copy and paste journalism. They just spit out the same stuff that's been talked about in the United States. They won't exercise a shred of journalistic due diligence on this topic and ask the question, well, hang on, our USLI is taking this topic very seriously from a national security threat and safety a flight risk perspective. What's Australia doing about EEPs and why aren't they asking, you know, those that we elect into positions of leadership in Australia and those in positions of authority in the Australia Department Offense, why aren't those media outlets that are privileged and that they have a unique platform that reaches a huge audience they're not even bothering to ask questions close to home about Well, why isn't Australia taking this topic seriously?

59:42 And I've I've tried to engage the legacy media of a number of times. I've called them out when they have not. I mean a case in point, you know the Today Show, I think it was only a couple months back they had I mean, for God's like, they had Australia's The Bachelor from Australia's version of The Bachelor who happens to be an astrophysicist. But they had the Bachelor come on and offer some commentary about David Graush and the you know, just the optics around that. I mean that there are there are plenty of other folks in Australia that take this topic seriesly like they played the music.

1:00:22 Well, thankfully they didn't in that segment, but that's my other gude. They always played the Bloody X Files theme. They'll take any chance they can to take the piss out of the topic and just throw up the ridicule and stigma card and they just treat it with such derision, derision and derision and and uh, you know, lack of lack of respect. They just throw throw shit on the topic the whole time. It's just so frustrating. That's one thing I do love about Gorbell because the I forget the last channel that did it do them, but one of the last channels Uh, they hit them.

1:01:00 It was him and Nick Pope and uh, they they played the X Files theme. You you see him come on and he's just like you can see that look like because they you know, like he you know, he's like, I'll you know, he's pretty serious about it, and like he's adamant that they don't use that kind of stuff if he's on the show. So I'm sure like you know, he talked about it on Weaponis and uh, they played it and he just came on and just like started tearing into them because they think they can get away with it, and it's we're passed that point.

1:01:40 We're passed the point. We passed the point in no return where you you know, this topic is being taken seriously, uh as a national security flat and threaten and safety flighters in the United States. Other countries have started starting to take it seriously. Canada has its you know, Sky Project Canada. We know that Brazil has had you know, a hearing, was it last year or the year before. You've had obviously the debarcle of things happening in Mexico, you know, everything outside of the I think the Nasca mummies being presented was of significance and importance.

1:02:18 You've now got discussions being had within European Parliament, so there are more and more countries around the world that are taking this topic seriously from a government perspective, and that's why Australia needs to get its finger out of its ass like the UK and New Zealand and do the same. Before I move on to civilian one last thing, I mean, especially with the military. I mean, this is a good segue. Actually, do you think it necessarily has to be a government disclosure or could citizen science do some sort of disclosure and have it be meaningful from the government.

1:03:06 I mean always, I've always said that I think we'll probably learn more from the endeavors and efforts of the folks like the Galileo Project and James Webb then we will. I mean that's you know, NASA obviously, but the scientific community certainly, the likes of the Galileo Project. I think we're more likely to get information and data that's of value and significance from those efforts than we are the government, the United States government and other governments, because they you know, I mean the problem with the government's history on this topic is, you know, this topic has been shrouded in secrecy for more than eighty years.

1:03:55 And unfortunately secrecy and the excessive overclassific cation that has plagued this topic that's led to the secrecy. Secrecy breeds suspicion, and suspicion breeds distrust mistrust, so folks don't trust their government because on this particular topic, because of the history of deception, misinformation, disinformation. I mean, look at Project Blue Book is designed to debunk the whole topic and just throw cold water over it. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that will get more information that helps, you know, move the needle along and open source it to invite the broader academic and scientific communities who largely are still being pretty silent on the topic, even though there's more in those spaces that are taking topics seriously.

1:04:53 But I do think it's the likes of the Galileo Project and others like you know, the Sole Foundation that are pushing for greater advocacy across other other other nations and academic scientific community to to take a top to take it seriously. Uh. And that's why I applaud you know RV. Lobe for his efforts. You know, people put a little lot of shit on him, but I think he's that's why, that's why he named it the Galileo Project, precisely exactly right. If if you know, folks didn't want to look through the telescope, and you know, if if and that's RV Lobe has like Galileo has the curiosity to look through the telescope and question the narrative that has long been held.

1:05:42 You know where the Earth the Sun doesn't revolve around, uh, you know the Earth, that's the other way around. And we wouldn't know that unless Galileo looked through the through the telescope. And so that's why I think more folks in the scientific and academic community need to be have the current and be brave enough to take that leap and look through the telescope to uh, to to examine this this this this phenomenon. I couldn't agree more. And stall Foundation I just confirmed that, uh, Season one will be wrapping up with Danny she Uh, you know, so you're in the you're in the Yeah, well it starts with you, it starts with you and it ends with Danny.

1:06:32 She. So, I mean, it's come on, I caldn't ask for better. Uh and timber Chip will be there, uh in that that list. So you know it's gonna be really fun. But so somebody asked, what is what would you consider because I think every country, you know, if it's if it's the UFO documentary and they're like honing in on the biggest case of a country, it's always called the roswell of this country. Yea, yeah, what is the ras? I know the answer to it. But what would what would you consider it to be the biggest, most well known case the roswell of Australia.

1:07:23 Yeah, so I would say the most renowned unresolved cold case in Australian history is the Westeral Flying Saucer incident of the sixth of April nineteen sixty six. And you know, I didn't know a lot about I mean, I live in Melbourne, which is you know, west All is about forty five minutes drive from me, and you know I knew of the west All incident growing up and obviously taking an interest in this topic, but I didn't really know a whole lot more about it. And it was until someone I think through throughout COVID suggested to me that I should I should look into I should research the west All Incident, and so I thought, okay, well I'll do that, and so I reached out to dewn by my name of Shane Ryan, who did a wonderful documentary on the west All Incident a good number of years ago.

1:08:21 Now it was called west All sixty six, a suburban UFO Mystery, and West Hall's been covered in James Fox's The Phenomenon of Twenty twenty. Ross Coultart has covered it as well on one of his documentaries for seven Spotlight. And so I was informed by Shane Ryan of an annual reunion event that a small number of the primary witnesses from the west All Incident attend at a place called the Grange, which is about just shy of a mile south of Westall High School. And these primary witnesses they get together once a year around about the time of the anniversary, you know, around April each year, and they just convene and they recount their recollections from that day and they share their memories and they you know, and there are members of the general public that often go to that event and just ask questions of these primary witnesses.

1:09:19 And that's exactly what I did so Shane Ryan told me about this event, and I decided to go along, and I thought, oh, maybe I'll just take my iPhone with me to see if anyone would be interested and willing to go on camera to answer a couple questions. And so I ended up meeting around about five primary witnesses from that observed what they said resembled a flying saucer on the sixth of April nineteen sixty six, and all of them were very generous and gracious at their time and prepared to go on camera.

1:09:54 And I just got reams and reams of footage on my iPhone just asking them questions that I had about the West Hall case. So much so that I was able to put together a documentary video goes Shy of ninety minutes that captures a lot of the commentary of their testimony long form format, and I turned it into a documentary on the West on these west All witnesses. And it's not designed, as you know, to be anything. I mean, I still say west All sixty six by Shane Ryan and the phenomenon a great starting point for folks that want to learn about the Western incident.

1:10:35 But I really intended to be a companion piece to those documentaries, so that people wanted to hear from some of these witnesses directly in long form format, they could. And the west All incident is such an intriguing one because fifty eight years later, you know, we're coming up on the fifty eighth anniversary in less than a week's time, and it's fifty eight years later, there's still been no formal or official explanation from the Australian Government or the Australian Department Defense as to what it was that was observed in the skies above west All High School on the sixth of April nineteen sixty six, and for as a quick summary for those that don't know about the case, approximately ten to twenty in the morning on the last day of term on the sixth of April nineteen sixty six, several hundred school children.

1:11:29 It was a school of about five hundred students and several hundred and about half the school these school students saw It's a bit ambiguous. Some saw one, some saw up to three what they described and reported as being a flying saucer in shape in the sky above their school, west All High School, and that one of these flying sources moved to a densely wooded area south of the school called the Grange, where a lot of the high school students would do their cross country runs. And one of these flying sources was reported or alleged to have descended to the grange or even make contact with land at the grange.

1:12:13 And you have then obviously reports of military on site before the end of the school day, you know, locking down, closing down the school, putting up no entry or barricade so that the grange area couldn't be accessed, and students were told to shut up about it. They were told that you have nothing to see here. Move along, folks, you didn't see anything. You're not to talk about this, and that was reiterated by their their headmaster. They were all convened for a special assembly later that day saying, you know, don't you're not to talk about anything that you've seen today.

1:12:55 It didn't happen. No one's to talk about it. And one of the teachers that also observed something in the sky above Westall High School that day, his name was Andrew Greenwood. He was twenty years of age on the day. He was a science teacher and he received a knock on the door, either later that evening or in the evenings shortly thereafter, and he had uniformed members of the military, what he assumed may have been the Air Force knock on his door, unannounced, unsolicited and say you're not to speak of the West what you saw at West Hall, because if you do, it will be very easy for folks to reach the conclusion that you were drunk on the day of the sixth of April nineteen sixty six, and your job will be in jeopardy.

1:13:45 So if it was nothing, if it was a nothing burger, if it was purely prosage, why were so many folks told to shut up about it? And that's the big frustration. I'd just say, that's the big frustration that I got from these primory witnesses that I interviewed, is that they obviously want to know what it was, they saw, what's responsible of what they saw in the skies above their their school. But what what really frustrates in the most is they were told to shut up, shut up about it, and they were told to stay silent.

1:14:16 And I think that's what frustrates them the most. I can't I don't remember, I don't know if I'm confusing this with the other, the aerial school signing in Zimbabwe. Well, yeah, yeah, for this particular detail, I don't know if I'm about to if I'm about yes, I don't know if I'm about to confuse the two. But is it was it this case where they denied that the military went in, who denied the military where they denied that they were ever there? And then well the militaries. The militaries never provided any comment, any form of comment on the west All incident.

1:15:03 And this is despite the fact that there was rumored to be, or more than rumored to be, a very comprehensive report that was done on the west All incident by the now defunct Department of Supply. So there was an official report that was done on the Westill incident. But fifty eight years later, that report has never seen the light of day and it has never been released to the general public. Now either it's been destroyed or it's been locked away somewhere and it's never been found. And that's why I say the Australian Department Offense in the Australian Government has never formally commented on the west All incident and never provided any explanation through documentary evidence or other what could be attributed to the Western They haven't even acknowledged the west All incident to a significant degree.

1:15:50 So the witnesses say all the witness to say the military locked the school down, Well not all of the I mean, fifty eight years ago. You obviously your memory fades. I mean, I can't remember what I did yesterday most of the time. But you know, a lot of a lot of it's not unreasonable think that a lot of folks would not remember, you know. So the primary witnesses that I interviewed at this reunion event last year, they were they were twelve thirteen years of age, and one of them was sixteen years of age who was actually a market gardener.

1:16:28 He wasn't actually at the school. So you had not just school students and teachers, but you had other members of the public see something as well that weren't on the grounds of the school that day. And you know, these teenagers so and a teacher as well. So obviously for folks that were children that were younger on the day, they may not remember or memory their memory phase over time. And I certainly, you know, I know from my experience, my memories of when I was six or seven years of age. I can't remember nearly anything, so it's not unreasonable thing that memory does fade over time.

1:17:01 Some students don't remember if they saw military. Some say they didn't see military, but then there were others that say they absolutely saw military come in jeeps and trucks, and they kind of cordoned off the Grange area, and there were reports of you know, military with Geiger counters, you know, kind of metal detective type instruments, and even soil samples being taken from the grange area where you know, a flying sauc or if it was that we made contact with the ground and it was you know, it was something retrieved.

1:17:43 Who knows. You know that there is the witness testimony around something having landed at the Grange is inconclusive, you know, it's it's it's been questioned and challenged, but it's certainly clear that something was seen in the sky above west All High School on the sixth of April nineteen sixty six. And there have been a number of prosaic explanations that have been put forward, and I cover one of them in my documentary. It was actually Keith Basterfield the Australia researcher that put forward a hypothesis that maybe what was seen in the high school above in the skies above west All High School was called a high bow, a high altitude balloon and there was in fact Project high Bow that operated several hundred kilometers northwest of Melbourne in a place called Mildura where they had balloon launchings with scientific instruments attached to them that were designed to detect radioactive remnants from nuclear atomic testing in the South Pacific in Pacific region.

1:18:46 So a hypothesis that was put forward was, well, could it have been a high Bow that was completely off course and descended or crashed south of west All High School? And you know the government wanted to cover that up because if there was, if it hit the press or the media, that a top secret project that was designed to do this scientific exactly, yeah it was, And what if it had crashed or come down on the high school and was responsible for damaging property or killing killing children that would be a complete PR disaster.

1:19:23 And that's another hypothesis that has been put forward that it maybe was a PR potential PR disaster that they covered up for that reason. But then you speak to and you look in the eyes of these primary witnesses who told me extremely compellingly that they saw what they saw was not a balloon. They knew what that they knew what hot air balloons looked like. High boal is obviously different to a hot air balloon, but they definitively say it was not a balloon that came down, yeah, and was seen in the sky above west on the day.

1:20:00 So it it's a really really fascinating case and it's one that frustrates so many researchers like myself and Keith and Bill Chalker and and Ross and Shane Ryan, because there's just not one shred of documentary evidence that has been made available or seen the light of day that can get us any any closers to concluding what Westall was right. Yeah, like the like in comparison to like say the renderous from Forest incident, where there's like a plethora of of documentation to say yeah, exactly, yeah, and so so the children also they did report beings that day, So that's so that's where you might be confusing it with the aerial school sighting in Zimbabwe.

1:20:52 So in them, yes, the one where they're they're feeding that they looked like they were phasing in and out of reality. I'm not I can't speak to that, but I know that what is what is similar across west All and the Aerial School Signing is that it was a mass siting incident. Was a mass sighting event involved children, and the difference being at the Aerial school siding, a number of the children reported seeing beings and having some form of contact with beings, whereas West All there is not any reports that I'm aware of that are let's say, credible that talk about beings being Yeah, no, You're absolutely right.

1:21:43 Now did it did? So? Now I'm now I can in Manhattan differentiating them the two always like I blend, I tend to blend details and easy to do across those two cases. Yeah. Yeah, But but it goes to show you that because in one of my questions to you is, uh, what was it? Uh? God? I you now, I can't find it, of course, And I mean that's an intriguing I don't know a whole lot about the Aerial School starting, I mean, other than just what I've seen with a documentary that was put out a year or two ago.

1:22:25 And I know, doctor doctor John Mack researched it obviously, but yeah, that's a that's another fascinating case. But but Western is the one at home that I've been doing my homework on, like looking ahead, you know, Uh, this is a you know, what I was going to ask is what developments are trends do you anticipate but or or have you seen in the UFO field? And uh, this is one that we see is is uh sighting's a large number of children citing uh some thing and being given a message of some sort, you know, technologically, and this is that that trend goes through a lot of alien abduction scenarios.

1:23:12 Now again, I am I'm kind of a nuts and boltz guy myself, but what was your tique on the abduction phenomenon? And yeah, look it's it's not one that I have ever entered into the forayon. I've always kind of, like yourself, been very nuts and bolts and trying to My focus always have been at engaging government and obviously the Department of Defense. I mean, I am intrigued that I am fascinated by folks that have approached me in person and online that have felt comfortable to share with me, you know, something that that happened to them, or at a minimum, that they believed happened to them.

1:24:00 And it's not my It would be shameful of me to judge someone based on, you know, what they have decided to share with me and have the courage to share with me because of the ridicule and stigma that's associated with this topic. I don't necessarily have to believe what they're telling me to take them seriously or you know, entertain it as a really interesting account or experience. You know, I am constantly you know, I appreciate the fact that people do feel comfortable in reaching out to me and share with me their story.

1:24:44 And there have been instances where folks have and I've said, look, where's There's Unfortunately not a whole lot I can do to help further your investigator of efforts or the conversation because it's not my wheelhouse. However, I do know some people that may be very interested to take a formal record of your account. And you know, I've referred a couple of folks to gentlemen. I've Roger Stankovic, who is the Australian New Zealand director for muff On and so folks that have reached out to me, I've taken a summary of what their experience was, and I've read laid that onto Roger and he's been quite happy to then have a conversation with them and formally document their sighting, their or their case.

1:25:30 So I do think that the experience experience of phenomenon is it's a fascinating one, and I hope in due course that experiences get there are given their time of day, and because the whole focus around the UAP topic thus far has been about breaking the walls of stigma down around about just being feeling comfortable to talk about it and feeling comfortable for folks that something to say something, Whereas now yeah so, and now that it's a lot more people a lot more comfortable just to have the conversation about the UAP topic.

1:26:14 Your case in point, I was traveling and I've told this story once or twice before. I was traveling back to my you know where I was born in Sydney, and I was doing some research at the time on the Phoenix Lights because I did a documentary on Kurt Russell's Encounter with the Phoenix Lights of March nineteen ninety seven, and I was going through security and my bag got screened and they pulled it aside and they wanted to go through it, and the screener opened my bag and always going through my bag, and then you know, doing the wand and I had doctor Lynn key Tire's book on the Phoenix Lights, which I was reading for research at the time, and before I knew it, I was into a a almost ten minute conversation with this screen in between him doing other bags about the UAP topic and the Phoenix lights.

1:26:59 So it's a lot. I'm surprised how easy it is to have a conversation with folks that I've never met or run into at an event and start talking about the topic, and you know, they don't treat it with the laughing under their hand or say, oh, it's or bs. And people are a lot more in my opinion and my experience, people a lot more comfortable to have the conversation about UAP because of everything that's happened since twenty seventeen, and it's you know, constantly being talked about in the press, news nation, you know, us congressmen and women.

1:27:35 And my only hope is that we get to a point where the stigma and ridicule comes down around the on the experience side, because there are well and truly people out there that have experienced some pretty fascinating

1:27:53 experiences as well as some incredibly scary ones, and you know, I only hope that they reach a point where they can feel comfortable to come forward. And the likes of folks, I mean Whitley Strieber, we know he's been one that's talking about his experience for a long time. There have been many many others that have come forward and the more conversations that have had at the experience aside, and I know that there was you know, there there are some experience groups and coalitions out there. There's the the uap uap MED, which is you know, Ted Rowe is a part of the there are a number of other experience of groups out there as well, whether you know, advocating for the conversation to be had at the experience level and it's creating a safe space for experiences to come in and open up and have the conversation.

1:28:47 So hopefully, just like on this topic, where more and more people start to talk about it and there's a degree of safety in numbers, that that will ring true for experiences in due course as well. That's yeah, it's amazing, do you think I mean, because I think I always or when I have an experience. On the show, I mean, one person said it to me and it kind of put it into context. It was like, think about this, we are the last group of people who can say that we've been kidnapped and potentially sexually abused and not taken seriously.

1:29:28 Like they are the last group of people that can do that, that can say that and not you know, be taken seriously because you know, this day and age, ah, you know, everything everyone's there's this equality movement for everybody, you know, everywhere. So I mean, it really is the last frontier of people who can say that, you know, they've potentially been sexually abused and know like the cops will literally laugh at them, you know, and that's a sad that's a sad truth. Hopefully that you know, this topic is more mainstream and becoming more mainstream, that that that that that that those layers of the onions start to peel away and we can we can have that conversation.

1:30:17 I mean, I asked him Merchant on the show, you know, I think I think he said I was the first person to ever ask a congress person about it. I asked, I was like, if you found out alien abductions were taking place, what would be Congress's reaction? And what would you do? And he just stopped, stared into the camera and said, son, what could we do? Mm hmm. It's a terrifying thought. Yeah, it is, and and and and that's why if if if we reach a point where I know Bryce Able often talks about, well, you know, it's maybe not disclosure that we were hoping for confirmation.

1:31:00 You know a lot of folks that that believe that you know, there there has been a non human intelligence presence presence on this planet for eighty plus years, or the there is you know, non human intelligence that is beyond our planet. I mean, if if we reach a point where, like we were talking about before, does this feel like there is something coming? You know, if we were to reach a point where we are given irrefutable evidence or confirmation as to what UAPR, whether it's non human intelligence, interdimensional explanation, ultra terrestrial future human, the day that that happens, the day that we have a conclusion or a definitive answer as to what U a PR.

1:31:53 If it's one of those options, then that completely validates the experience, the experience of phenomenon, and it adds a lot more weight to the experience phenomenon, And then that conversation I believe can be had. Now, hopefully we get to a point where experiences get their time of day and they can talk about their experience and not feel like they're going to be ridiculed or ostracized before that happens. But if and when that day comes, I think then that completely opens up the door for the experience of conversation to be had, because then the cat's out of the bag and we know that if there is an HI, then it's not beyond the realm of possibility that well experiences may have had a pleasant or very unpleasant experience with whatever it is that UAPR.

1:32:53 And that needs to be talked about sosolutely and again and have said it better, goodness said it better, my friend. So you've been lucky enough to to be able to have a relationship with someone like Ross Coultart and these just absolutely amazing people in upology, and what's that you know, what's that been like for you? And and and you know, for someone who is starting in the field, you know, and maybe you know this is just speaking generally, is dissuaded, you know, by because you said earlier, I mean, this is a full time job in itself, right, especially if you said marriage and the UFO topic did not always go hand in hands.

1:33:46 And luckily I have a girlfriend who is like just as into it as I am, and she loves that. I mean, I work at four in the morning, I do a day job, and then you know, I come home and this is my passion. I don't care if I make a single dollar doing it. Don't care, don't care. It's you know, this is this is the path that I know I was I was meant to be on. And I think I think, even though you and I are nuts and bolts guys, I think maybe you have that same feeling like you're supposed to be here. Yeah. Look, I'm I'm, I've Yeah, it's funny.

1:34:30 I'm I've always been intrigued by this topic, but my intrigue has only grown in the last seven years. And and I've I've just found it interesting that I mean, I've never asked to be on someone's podcast or live stream, or I've never asked to be put in contact with someone everyone that I have come to know and develop a friendship with an association with this on this topic, they've either approached me or or that I've been introduced to them. Uh. And so I find that to be humbling and also interesting that you know, there are obviously some folks out that have taken notice of the questions that I'm asking and the answers that I'm trying to uncover.

1:35:16 In some answers that I haven't, I'm covered, And I feel very privileged and and and grateful that I've been able to stand on the shoulders of giants like Bill Chalker, Keith Basterfield, Ross Coultart, James Rigney and many others as well and learn from them directly and just be a sponge basically and soak up as much as I can from their wealth of knowledge. And to a point where I've been able to collaborate with Ross Coultart on some serious articles that have been published in the Australian media.

1:35:53 You know, we had both Ross and I were involved in an article specifically about the Australian Department Defens's denial that it attended the Five Eyes Forum on UAP in May of last year, and then a follow up article done in the Canberra Times, Australia's that's kind of like Australia's capital and the leading newspaper in Australia's capital where most government federal employees work, you know, talking about Australia's now backflipped and admitted that it did attend the fives from him on European and Ross and I were integral into getting that story out into the mainstream media.

1:36:32 So I feel privileged that I've been able to collaborate with Ross on the reporting that we've been able to get out there together from in an Australian context. I mean, Ross a lot of his work is very US centric and rightly so, he's got a lot of US based sources, but he still has an active presence back home in Australia, and I'm grateful again that I've been able to to collaborate with him on getting the news out that's got an Australian focus to it. So it's been Yeah, it's been humbling as well as a privilege to learn from those folks because I still think of myself very much as being very green on the topic.

1:37:17 You know, I haven't been investing and putting in the years and years of research like folks like Bill Chalker, who I have a ton of respect for in Keith Basterfield, and I've been privileged to learn from both those guys directly and feel like Keith has mentored me a lot in Foyer and I've been able to learn and have I mean, I was at a Ross Coultart did a Q and A event in Melbourne and Sydney last year and I was fortunate to go to both of them. And after the Sydney event, a group of us went out for dinner, you know Ross, myself, James Rigney, Roger Stankovic, and Bill Chalker, and I was seated next to Bill Chalker all night at dinner, just picking his brain.

1:38:00 I was in his ear the whole night, and I felt like, poor bugger, I'm not giving him a chance to eat his meal or have have his have his beer because I mean, he's near the whole night, but just wanting to be a sponge and and just learn from the wealth of knowledge and history that those guys having the having their heads. So it's been, it's been, it's been fascinating. Yeah, you'll have to put in a good word for us. Uh. Ross is one of those all those guys are definitely in and in the top of the list of people to to have on the show.

1:38:31 And and you know we're only getting getting bigger and and yeah, I mean I know Ross is a very hard man to track down there. I mean, I was fortunate enough to have him on my you know, my podcast with Bill Chalker and another altogether, yeah, back in August of last year. And that was that was that was great to get together. Absolutely wanted to get Keith Basterfield on as well, but he wasn't available, so it was it was just good to have those folks on together and uh and and share their thoughts.

1:39:04 Well. Lastly, before I let you before I let you go for the first time because I feel you know, I feel well, well, we'll be having many more conversations. Uh. You know, in your opinion, what rule does storytelling and media play and cheaping public reception? Uh? And believes about UFOs Uh, you know, particularly in Australia and in your media. Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, being a filmmaker myself, like I I studied directing for the screen at the Australian Film Television Radio School, which is Australia is kind of like Leading film school.

1:39:48 And this is going back a decade ago, and I didn't end up working in the film industry, but I've kept filmmaking as a passion ever since then. I feel privileged that I've been able to incorporate my love of storytelling and filmmaking into now doing documentaries on this topic, but not being you know, real, you know, non fiction documentaries as opposed to fictional storytelling, which I was originally had a passion for, but now my passion has now transitioned to you know, real fiction documentary storytelling.

1:40:28 And I think you can and through what I've done with obviously my documentary that did on Kurt Russell and the Phoenix Lights and obviously the Westill Witnesses, I've been able to blend in,

1:40:42 you know, storytelling through your Kurt's history from his humble beginnings as a child actor with Disney through to his adult years as a as a as a as a serious actor and obviously my favorite all time actor, and blend that in with his account of the Phoenix Lights. And we know that in twenty seventeen when he was promoting Guardians of the Galaxy Volume two. He was on for those that don't know. Briefly, he was on the BBC's The One Show and he revealed to the world that it was he and his son Oliver Hudson.

1:41:25 It was he that he was the general aviation pilot that called into air traffic control at Phoenix Sky Harbor International that he was seeing six lights running back over the airport and air traffic control was not painting, was not pinging anything on their radar. So he was the Yeah, he was the general aviation pilot that called in that reported the Phoenix lights and that came out nineteen in twenty seventeen, some what's that twenty years after it happened. And then he talked about it again with Jimmy Kimmel the following Yearly recently he and his son Wyatt Hudson were on I believe it was Jimmy Kimmel again talking about Whyatt his son has also had a sighting of uap ufo and Goldie Horn has had his long you know, Kurt Russ's longtime partner has also had her experience with the phenomenon.

1:42:24 So it's interesting that it kind of runs in the family. But I feel fortunate enough that I've been able to blend my love of storytelling into you know, non fiction documentary filmmaking, and I think more more films that are done like that they resonate with me. I connect with those stories a lot more like the documentaries that James Fox puts out Shane right, obviously telling a story about telling it a way that it's truthful and respectful of the facts about the case and the experiences that the individuals involved, the ones that actually do what an investigative documentary are supposed to do and don't just you know, throw alien you know, scary alien cut scenes, uh, you know the cut quick ull shot of the alien like turning around creepily like investigative investigative filmmaking.

1:43:31 Yeah, And and you know, love w or hate him. I mean, I don't agree with his position on a lot of things, but you know, I am very envious of Stephen green Street's filmmaking. He actually, he produces, He's a one, he's a really good editor, he has a ton of production value, and he in what he puts out there. I just don't, and I imagine many others don't necessarily agree with the story and narrative that he's telling in Uh, I'm sorry, are you saying Stephen green Street or Stephen Greer? No, Stephen green Street, Okay, because I was gonna say even Greer's documentaries are done in a way that I like, Yeah, the production values there and and you know there is green Street his skin Walker Rant series, the first four episodes because because he I mean, he milt talk about milk and something he milt that one night that Skinwalker he did.

1:44:39 And I mean, I've got my own thoughts on Stephen green Street, which I'll be sharing, he blocked, hopefully the not future is that's a side another project of mine. I I do envy uh and applaud his his Yeah, his production skills because he does do some great work in putting together a finished pace. They had me like those episodes, they had me hooked. I was like I was eager and asking like, hey, when's the next one coming out? And you know, even though him and I had you know, we're arguing in other forums, I was always always like, hey, you know, you do really good work, Like like I really like again what you said, the production value, you know, I just I think like even in one of his videos.

1:45:34 Uh, he goes to where he has his own UFO hiding right, talks about it and then just like dismisses it like and and and and puts the garbage on it, like must have been a secret tech you know that it is what it is? Uh, And I'm just like, ah, god, you could like how did it start? How did the basement office start from what it was and to what it is? Like what made him Yeah, yeah, that's again, yeah again again, story from the day? I respect. I agree. I mean, I think, look, he's a great storyteller. He he has you know, he's obviously been uh he's been inspired by the filmmaking of Michael Moore.

1:46:29 And you can see Michael Moore's style comes through without question in Stephen green Street's documentary filmmaking style. I just don't agree with everything that he's putting out there, but I do. I do enjoy the production value that he puts into his contents. And as a filmmaker myself, obviously I'm very much still a novice filmmaker. I'm not at the level of obviously green Street and James Fox and Shane Ryan and these guys. But as you know, as a filmmaker, I have a level of appreciation for the editing and the production value that that goes into the content that he puts in.

1:47:07 Oh you're yeah. I mean we had this conversation before we went on, and I mean, I'm making my first feature length documentary right now, and like the the minutia. Oh, I mean, it's just incredible the amount of work. And again that's why, like you know, when it comes to ufology and money, there's this thing about people where like if you make money off of ufology, you must be a grifter. It's like, well, okay, let's look through a different lens, because again, it's a full time job in its own. As soon as I get home from work, like I'm either recruiting guests, keeping up dialogue, editing, YadA YadA, and now tackling this project.

1:48:05 You know, it's it's just an every day thing. And I love it, I really do. I love it. And you and you and you you hit home the point there. We do it because we love because it's a passion. We don't do it for the money. Like I I've lost money, I haven't made you know, in some cases, I've only breaken even on the short films that I've done, and we don't do it to make a masa offer it or certainly I can speak for myself on on on that front. But you know, if you're fortunate enough and lucky enough to have it connect with an audience so that you can get a return on your investment, then you should be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor, because there is I mean, you eat, sleep, and breathe, the project is that you're committed to making from script to screen, and it's the first thing you think about when you wake, and it's the first thing the last thing you think about before we get to bed.

1:49:04 And you know, folks that have not made a film before, whether it's a short film or a documentary, or have not been involved in the production of a podcast or live stream like you're doing, you know, they only see the finished product. They don't see all of the blood, sweat and tears that goes into pre production, the production, marketing of it, and so on. So it's and that's why I have no issue with people enjoying the fruits of their labor. But for many of us, we do it not for that motivation. We do it because we love it.

1:49:36 And we want to share that story with others that will enjoy it as well. Absolutely, man and Grant, what do you have coming up in the future that people can look forward to? I know that you yet the podcast, so plug away, my fa So I actually did a live stream only yesterday, so yeah, I yeah, And we haven't talked about that much today, but it kind of is along the theme of what we've been talking about today. But I've got a YouTube channel. It's called The Unexplained Rundown if you just search for that by name or just my name, Grant Lavac on YouTube.

1:50:15 It's also on Spotify if you prefer the audio version. If folks that want to follow me on x or Twitter, my handles just at Grant Lovac. I don't have the opportunity at the moment to do as many live streams as i'd like. My wife and I were expecting our second child in the coming month, so we've got a beautiful baby boy going to be entering into our world shortly, so that'll probably put me I'll go dark for a short while there, but I certainly would like to continue to share updates with folks that in Australia and abroad that are interested to learn what I'm able to uncover on the UAP topic in Australian context.

1:50:59 So usually whenever I learned something new, which at the moment has been on average once a month, I usually share that in a in a live stream. So but go to my channel you'll find all the all the information on the live stream I did yesterday, and and the West All Witnesses and and Kurt Russ and the Phoenix Lights and other other episodes that I've done. Yeah, well, in future episodes we'll get into way more. Now that you know, introduct three phases out all your links. I'll put in the description below for everybody and grant thank you so much for taking time out of your day and doing this sport with me.

1:51:37 It truly means a lot to me and to to our audience, to you know, to every You're very welcome, my friend. I appreciate you you having on and give me a chance to share some Australian insights with your with the audience as well. So so so thanks for having me and and enjoy Easter with your family obviously. Yeah yeah, unfortunately, uh Easter is not a good one for us. So my mom my mom passed away the on sheet. Well, her technical death death date is four three two one, and in twenty twenty one, that was the day before Easter.

1:52:17 Okay, well but but but but but that was the day in that room I had a UFO sighting in the in the front of my parents. I was when I was younger. In that day, I watched her leave her body. That's what set me on the path to doing this show, giving up culture and leaving Hollywood. I used to interview actors. So again I try to frame it in the best way possible. Right, So that's why I'm here today is for her. And you know, this whole week I've been putting up what you'll see at the end. But again, you know, we all have our ways that we enter and stay in this field.

1:53:09 And I look forward to having many more conversations. You're now the Australian correspondent for Total Disclosure. Just kidding. It's an unpaid internship now, NOD be happy to come on anytime you want me back, and I would say, then enjoy celebrating your mother's life and memory, all right, And for everyone that's watching or listening, if you can leave a review on Apple or Spotify, leave a written review, a star rating. It helps tremendously with the algorithm. You guys have no idea. And it's free as it literally costs you zero to like, share, and subscribe as well.

1:53:50 If you do want to help supports channel and help us get making bigger and better content, then hit the join button. You can pay what you want. It's either three, five or ten bucks. Everyone gets the same benefits early access, ad free, yearly gift after twelve months, and priority questions. All that and more as we grow. Guys, you know what it is. Give a like, give a thumbs up, and we'll see you next time. Thank you again, great, Thanks Tom Something