#86 Dr Irena Scott UFO Researcher/Author: "Beyond A Reasonable Doubt" The Calvin Parker Story

0:00 Welcome back to Total Disclosure, Everybody. My name is Tai and I'm the host and creator of the show. Today we have the pleasure of bringing in doctor Irena Scott, who is an American author and physiologist. She received a BS from Ohio State University and an MS from the University of Nevada. She's also a PhD from the University of Missouri in the Department of Veterinary Medicine. Her postdoctoral studies were done at Cornell University. She has been employed as an assistant professor at St. Bonaventia University, and has done research and teaching at the Ohio State University, University of Missouri, and University of Nevada.

0:41 She worked in related fields and for many years studied many species, including bonabos and their behavior. She was a correspondent for Popular Mechanics magazine and has also worked as a volunteer astronomer at the Ohio State University Radio Observatory, as well as participated in UFO investigation for the DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, and Center for UFO Studies. She is an author of six books, including UFOs, and has contributed chapters and articles to several scientific journals. We're super happy to have her on the show today and we can't wait to get into it.

1:18 But don't forget to leave you a review and five star if you're listening on Spotify or Apple podcast truly helps the show. If you want to go a step further, if you're watching on YouTube, you could become a member. And if you become a member, you get your own RSS feed for the podcast anyway on your chosen platform, So to be ad free. You get bonus content to interviews like this, you get early access, a yearly gift after twelve months consecutive of being a member, and so much more. As we gain more traction, let us get out there.

1:51 Let us get exploring the mysteries of the unknown today with doctor Irena Scott who recently she and Philip Mantle co authored Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, story of the abduction of Calvin Parker with new corroborating evidence, witnesses, testimony, and much more. Yeah, we hope you enjoy thank blank and space to cover the entire UFO phenomenon over the past twenty years. All right, and we're back with doctor i readA. Scott, who recently co authored the book Beyond a reasonable doubt about the nineteen seventy three passed Gula abduction of Calvin Parker and Charles Hickson.

3:14 She co authored this book with Philip Mantle, a good friend of the show. Doctor. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you very much for inviting me. Yeah, I'm I've had several people that have told me that you know that your work and what you do is incredible. So I've wanted to have this conversation for quite some time, especially after hearing other shows that you've done or radio that you've done. I have. It's not that I think I can ask better questions, It's just I think you've been asked a lot of the same questions over several podcasts, and that comes with the territory.

3:54 But tell me, I want you to tell me how are why is someone like you in the field of uphology. Well, my background is entirely in scientific work. When I was working. I'm retired now and I'm in UFOs. But they always say scientists don't believe in UFOs, and whenever they have a debunk wrong, it always claims to be a scientist and they always say, oh no, UFOs don't exist and everything. Well, so I was under in the closet for a long time. But I began having UFO experiences when I was just a tiny child and before I ever heard of UFOs.

4:44 And it was years and years and years later when I found out that this had something to do with UFOs. And so all my experiences has mainly been with other people. So I don't have to worry too well, I don't. I think I don't have to worry that I'm yes and so so you you you basically summed it up right there. That's you know perfectly. But your work, you know what what you were, what you've done, it's it's it's vital for the field because you know, we we need as many credible people on this subject as possible.

5:28 And I think, you know, people like yourself, doctor Gary Nolan, you know, Jacques Vallet. Uh uh, There's so many people that bring credibility to this topic and I do think you're one of them. And this, you know, the the Pasco Googla abduction. Uh. Sadly, we just lost Calvin Parker, you know about it was about a week before I did the episode of Philip about the book you guys just did. But the nineteen seventy three paschool abduction. How

6:03 you know, why did you Why did you guys write the new book? Why did you continue the search for evidence with a case like this that was from nineteen seventy three? It is a very widespread, wide known case. But how did you get involved with with this? Well? I think you probably already talked to Philip and know why he got involved. The reason I got involved was on October eleventh, nineteen seventy three, something happened to me. That was a time of the induction. At that time, I was in Missouri and my mother was in Ohio, and she called me and said, did you hear that noise?

6:48 And that was six hundred miles away? And I joked with her and told her she was crazy and told her to go in the insane asylum and everything, and she's a real skeptic. And sometime later, several days later, she called and said there was just a huge UFO flap going on there that everybody was singing and people were hiding their basements and everything else. Well, so that's kind of like what she said. I don't remember the exact words, but nice people in the community were visibly shaken. People in the community were visibly shaken, and even from a skeptic like my mother.

7:27 She said that UFO chased one of her best friends in a car and that people were staying in at night and everything. I don't remember her exact words, but that sort of thing. Wow, So this is so was this a flop? So this is a flap. So multiple people, over multiple days saw UFOs after this large boom or I think I've heard that it's the second, uh, the second loudest noise recorded.

8:05 That's what I could. That's when I figure, I don't know if it's the loudest noise, but so far as I can my as I've been able to determine, I think it's covered the most territory of any the second most extensive sound. Now, what what did this sound sound like? Was it? Did it sound like an explosion? Did it sound like a like tendus? Did it sound like like what? Did she describe what the sound was like? You know, because this is I think a question that nobody really asks, what did it? Does anybody know?

8:44 What? What was the sound close? What can we closely related to? If there's nothing else you know that that we know? I didn't hear but I'm sure it was strange because but but did your mother did she tell you what she like? She said, did you hear that sound? Now my question would be what sound? Well, I mean she was six hundred miles away, and you know, I thought that that's a stupid thing to say, because you know, you wouldn't hear a sound for six hundred miles, right, And I was teasing her about being crazy, but she said something about that she and my father thought there was an explosion.

9:27 So it was an explosive noise. It sounded like it was. Okay, I didn't hear no, no, no, So that that's actually that's exactly what I wanted to know, is because not a lot of people because there are different you know, there's the law. Was it a hamming, you know, like a like an electrical sound. Was it atmospheric? No? But this sounded like an explosion and then a UFO flap happens. Now we know that nukes, uh. You know, I think one of the greatest books written of all time, UFOs and Nukes, which was I believe Robert Hasting's correct m UFOs in Nukes, the book there's a correlation between U nuclear weapons and UFOs.

10:23 So, you know, is there any you know, the sound of an explosion and then a UFO flap. Do you think that they could have been a nuclear test of some sort. There wasn't any evidence for any cause at all. I mean, there was no aircraft sighted that would have caused it. There a debunker could debunk me on that and said, yes, it was an aircraft, but the sound wasn't the same place as the aircraft, So I debunked in back. But it sounded like, from what I mean, from what I read in the papers and things like, it was very very louder intense or something because people were running out of their houses.

11:06 There were fire department runs and all kinds of things, and and and you said, people heard this fra all over. Now you you you went and did a little bit of research on uh maybe trying to find if there was any recorded data about this mysterious sound. Now, how far after the event did that take place? How far after did you start looking into this this sound and this UFO flap. Well, I was in Missouri at the time, and I was working on my PhD and had a lot on my mind and wasn't thinking about it. Years later, I moved back to Ohio, and once I was in the library, the Ohio State Library, the Ohio State University Library, they had a room full of actual newspapers and not the little microfilms.

12:00 And so I thought one day, just on a whim, I thought I'd go in and see if I could figure out when that sat, when that sound in that phone call had ben And so I didn't expect to find anything. And there were just zillions of papers, and I didn't remember the date, and so I just vaguely remembered it was nineteen seventy three and maybe in the middle of October, but I didn't remember much else, right, And so I went in and I thought, I'll never find this, and I mean, it's like a needle in a haystack.

12:32 Oh it was ugh. It was like you know movies of big vaults and things, right, right, I thought, no way, And so I went to October and looked in the Dispatch, which is the big newspaper for this area, and the Columbus Dispatch, and pulled out a couple of issues and I actually found a little tiny note about a big boom, and I figured that was it. And then I found out I looked at other things and discovered that at that around that time, there had also been huge, huge UFO flap, and so I that was the only boom that the the circumstances, and that had been exactly the same time as the abduction.

13:26 And so I did some more research on it because I was just curious, because it was so strange that my mother called me. Besides which they couldn't nobody could identify where the sound came from, right, So I submitted that to a scientific journal, and the State Seismologists of Ohio contacted me, and he was interested and he helped me look up and then I did report it in a scientific journal. Okay, and and and so now you have actual physical data that something took place, mm hmm something you know.

14:09 Your mother wasn't crazy, she there there was this sound. Now you have data to prove that that sound happened, and it happened on the same date as you know, and around the same time that Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker are abducted. Now this is a very strange. I I don't I I'm reluctant to call it coincidence because I don't think it. I don't think it could be chocked up as that. But but what now, where do you go here from the correlation between the two, Well, I probably said the sundary literature, and I didn't think anything about it for years and years, and then in U twenty seventeen, so long ways afterwards, I think I think it was I think I published in nineteen eighty seven, So twenty seventeen, Philip Mantal published one of my books on UFOs, and then he he had he encouraged and other people encouraged Calvin to talk about the Pascal Gula abduction, and he published two of Calvin's books.

15:27 And then it turned out that there were a lot of other witnesses of UFOs around in Pastoula the same time as the abduction, and he wanted somebody in the US to you know, call and interview people, because he was in England and he has an English accent and the down past good of Southern accents, and I was kind of in between and in the United States, so I knew about the time zones and everything, and so he asked me, and that would have been ridiculous up that I already had an interest on account of studying that sound right, So I was interested in everything, so I was happy to begin interviewing people.

16:11 Well so, and so the nineteen seventy three abduction, we don't need to go through it because it's we've been We've told it on the show. But to quickly summarize, there are two guys fishing, uh, they see blue lights. The blue lights come down, and

16:33 a being comes out and takes Charles and Calvin into the ship where they remember, you know, being examined if you will. So the classic abduction story. But with this new book, Beyond a reasonable doubt, you guys have found you and Philip have found a ton more people that witnessed the event through various means of social media or people getting in contact. So these people weren't coming forward, You were seeking them out. Yeah, they always say people

17:15 people are hoaxers and they come out on UFOs to get their name in the paper or something. Well, like one of the witnesses, Calvin, didn't say anything about it. He was the main waitness and he could have been world famous right off. He didn't say anything about for about fifty years. And there was a lot of craftsmen and that sort of thing, and so people didn't come forward. But we also had the information that at that time the police down in past Goula had taken about fifty reports that night of UFOs and other people were coming into the office and reporting them, and so there was a lot of confirmation, kind of like confirmation that a lot of people saw something at the same time as the you know, approximately the same time as the abduction, on the same night, right, and they all describe blue lights and that's what gets me, or bluish white light.

18:16 And even a month after the abduction, you know, some fishermen they see something in the water and it's glowing. It's glowing like a white or bluish color and they they have they're fishing, so they have oars with them and they touch it and it clanks like metal. Can you just can you tell us what what what is going on with that? Well, the abduction was who were the eleventh And this happened November the sixth, and it was just about the same place, just within about a mile of where the abduction was, and I took There were I think nine witnesses and only one was alive, and I interviewed him and at that time he was a sixteen year old kid and he's with his father and they saw this strange thing.

19:14 He didn't say it was blue. It was underwater, and he sort of said yellow or like the like it was coming up like a light was coming up to muddy water or something. Okay, okay, he thought it was looking down on it. He thought looked like a looking down on a parachute with the lines rating out. Oh okay, so bulbous bulbous in a way, yeah, huh okay. So then you know they can't figure out what it is, and every time they touch it, the thing turns its lights out and go somewhere else. So you know, this is a very peculiar.

19:56 So I think they have another fish suhermen. Uh, set of people come come look, do the same thing. And then is it true that they bring the coastguard out there? Yeah? He and his father eventually went back to get the coastguard, and two officers came out in their larger boat and also saw it and investigated it and the coast guard. So the officers thought quite strange. So the coastguard saw this, oh yeah, two of them did, and I think they interacted with it too. So just like the fishermen, they interacted with it.

20:37 You know, maybe not by the same means, but they they they were attempting to uh contact it or or or figure out what it is through means of you know, touch and feel and connection. Yeah, and they Is there any reports on this that that that have surfaced,

21:07 Yeah, there's a whole lot. I mean, like people made fun of the abduction story, but with the uh us so unidentified submarine or submerciful object, Yeah, there was a real good investigation of that with the Navy and the Coast Guard and everything else, and they did a real serious investigation. We had a lot of papers on that, Okay, because I would say, like you know, you know, with the secrecy of the topic,

21:40 I'd be I wouldn't be surprised if any of the Coast Guards involvement became classified information. I'm sure some of it did, because you know, who knows what what what actually happened, aside from you know, the witnesses that have come forward and told their their stories. But many people have have vindicated or vindicated or confirmed that something happened on the Pasca Goula UH River that night, something extraordinary and something and and this goes back to that also that UFO flap.

22:21 That's mile you know, uh at how many miles away from uh, your mother's to Pascoula. Well, there was definitely a flap of Pasca Gula, but's a flap going on in Ohio at the same time. And yeah, So how how much of a distance is that? I need to look it up. I'd guess maybe twelve hundred miles, but I'm just guessing I need to look that up. So okay, So, so okay, that's that's and that's a rough estimate. So and obviously they didn't hear the sound that your mother heard. But with with this UFO flap that happened in your mother's on your mother's end, did you ever get to talk to anybody who saw anything there?

23:08 And was there any connection to the case in seventy three, maybe seeing blue lights or the same type of figure or being. Is there anything any similarity in the two events? Well, I was just thinking about that recently with Calvin. There was an induction report and there were actually more reports around Columbus around that time than there were in paston Goula, because the Columbus Dispatch reported that on one night there were one hundred and fifty calls to authorities about UFO sightings. That may have been the most of any wow.

23:52 And also I was you know, most people wouldn't report in abduction, so there might have been two. There might have been more abductions in Passagoula, but only one person had the nerve to report it, so there might have been some going on in Ohio. But one that especially interested me was a real well documented report. It was October the eighteenth, you know, and it took place kind of close to where I live now, my family farm. But there were these four people in a helicopter, one of them was coined the Coin Helicopter Report, and they were flying around their helicopter and they saw a light way off and some one of the people told the pilots to look at it, and he looked at and said, so what.

24:45 And then it started coming toward the helicopter and real fast, and they were afraid that it had hit, and so the helicopter pilot put it into a dive to avoid hit. Yeah, and then the thing stopped right above them and showing a green light in the helicopter. And at that time they weren't aware of it, but instead of going down in the pile I think still had his hand on the thing to go down. The helicopter rose and I think about fifteen thousand feet, just really fast, but they didn't know it until later.

25:23 And then there was this green light that's shown in the helicopter and all their instruments went crazy, and then the thing went on and it's further conform. I mean, that was really strong evidence to start with. They tried to call the people at Mansfield Airport to see if they could find if there were jets in the area, and they couldn't get through it. Later they did, but there were no jets in the area, and there were ground witnesses too that saw the things come together, and the green light even lit up the ground around them.

26:00 Was a pretty but anyway, what was strange about Another thing that was strange about that was is that the government later contacted the people in the helicopter and said, did you have strange dreams? And they did and they one of them, two of them had out of the body experiences. Wow. One of them said he was holding a blue sphear in his hand and his dreams. He had strange dreams. To What's funny is the government seemed to someplace in the government. They seemed to think that they seemed to be asking abduction quite like questions to these helicopter pilots, even though there was no evidence whatsoever of an abduction, but maybe there was.

26:48 Maybe abductions aren't well understood. I would say that so if I if, I would say that that is an accurate assessment, because I think it's the one frontier that you know, even in Congress. I had timber Shed on the show, and I think I was the first person ever to ask, or at least our show was because my co host ended up asking the question. But I think we're the first people to ever ask us sitting Congress member that if they found out that abductions were actually taking place right for one hundred percent beyond a reasonable doubt.

27:29 You know, no pun intended, what would Congress be able to do? And he just said nothing, there's nothing we could do what like, But you know, he's a very outspoken person on the matter, but he had basically admitted that there's nothing Congress could do to keep up. And I think that's part of the secrecy is they don't want to tell us that with abductions. They don't want to bring this into the mainstream UFO thing that's happening now with David Grush and all that, because it's a little bit over the line, right, it's scary, and if the US government admitted that we can't protect you, then that would cost the US government a lot of faith with its with its people.

28:21 Well, I I guess it's might be an excuse. It seems to me like it'd be better to just go ahead and tell people. Do you say you actually think that that people would be better off knowing? Yeah, I mean I'd rather know, even no matter how horrible it is. I'd rather know. Right Well, I'm not saying the secret, you know, because if but but I mean people like David Grush. Did you watch the UFO ear ring and are you, I mean, are you familiar with the with the David Grush situation. Yeah, I didn't watch every second of it, but I watched some of it.

28:58 Right, But he is saying that there's been some sort of agreement made between UH non human intelligence and factions of the US government. You know, rogue players who are in charge of these you know, unacknowledged special access programs, and you know they're they're they've made some deal with these beings and that may include abduction, you know, for information or technology or or some other uh benefit to the military industrial complex. Yeah, I don't know, because he was saying like they had hardware captured and bodies captured.

29:52 And it seems to me like if they were, if the phenomena is has a lot more capability and us we might not be able to capture things. But I don't know. Okay, So, and that's fair enough, and and I I agree to a to an extent. But so back to back to your involvement. So you've done You've done a lot in the work of in the field, you know, so the pastor google abduction. What why do you think this case is so widespread? Why do you think this case hits home with so many people, and why do you think that it puts such a burden on Calvin Parker?

30:49 Uh? Because usually abductions are presented as something that happens out in the boondocks where there's no way around one and the person can't prove anything. I mean, there's no documentation or anything. If you say, well, I was out in my backyard, out in nowhere the UFO abducted me, Well, who's going to listen, right, They all they did the same thing with them, But in this case there were two witnesses with two different reactions. They were not UFO people at all, and they just the one decided to talk.

31:30 Well, for one thing, it was conscious. And a lot of this is what they present as abductions, are something people remember under hypnosis or they may and it's not conscious. But this was conscious, and they were you know, you don't know what part of it remembered, but they remembered some part of it consciously immediately, and they reported immediately. And even today, if you know, if I walked out in my backyard and got abducted, and I wonder whether I should report it, but uh, Charlie had been in the army, he had been elect from the situations, and he thought he could handle the harassment, and he thought this should be reported because he didn't know the so called beings or whatever they were doing, and whether it happened to other people or not, or anything else.

32:23 So he decided to report it, and he reported immediately, Yes, the same night. Yeah, I mean that's something oh after didn't and and and didn't he all all, but but didn't Calvin and Charlie talk about it and say, first like, the first thing they said was let's not report it, and then it wasn't until you know, they stopped at at a place with a payphone. That uh, you know, Charles kind of undermines that sentiment that they both had agreed upon. So

33:04 just walk us through what happens, because I think what happens at the police station is really pertinent to the case. Okay, well, I think first of all, they tried the newspaper and it was closed. Then they tried I mean, Calvin didn't want to report it, but Charlie thought it was should be reported. And so then he called the Kesseler Air Force Base and they said, we don't have anything to do with the UFOs, you know, crazy and all that report to the local authorities. So he called the sheriff, and apparently the person that answered the sheriff's phone, the sheriff's office phone, said that one reason he took it seriously was he could hear Calvin in the background begging him not to say anything.

33:55 And so they brought Calvin and him in that night, which is just hours after it happened, and they did an excellent investigation I don't think they could do anything better today. They interviewed them both separately, then they put them in a room together and with an interviewer. Then the interviewer walked out. Or what they did was to hide a tape recorder in the room with them, so that because the police didn't want to be taking advantage of a hoax, and they thought, well, if they would know what they talked about alone privately, they would find out whether they were hoaxing or not, right, because you'd assume that once they left the room they would kind of ease up and laugh, you know, not maybe not laugh, but be like, hey, you know, we pulled one over on them, didn't we.

34:46 But no, that's not what happens. No, they both sounded like they were absolutely terrified out of their minds, and it went on up with Calvin praying to God and everything. Is there a copy of that? There's a copy of it. It's called a secret tape, and it's on the internet, so anybody can listen to it. I think you just I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna play it right now. Okay, I'm gonna play it right now. I'm gonna include it. Uh, in editing, so now we can continue the conversation.

35:27 But wow, okay, so wow, just wow. So that is you know, they are definitely shaken up in that video, and it definitely that they think something happened. Yeah, yeah, with with the praying to God and and did they hurt you? Son? They hurt me? You know? Are you okay? They were they? These people are they don't they sound distraught? They sounded like they were about to have a nervous break a heart attack. Yeah, all while the police are secretly recording them at their most vulnerable moment. Yeah. And so wow.

36:12 Oftentimes somebody will say, well, these people are making it up. That was pretty clear that these people thought something happened, that they weren't making anything up. And it was a real good investigation. Yeah, and it was worth investigating. Yeah. And did did uh? I was just gonna say, Project Blue Book, Oh my god? Did anyone did? Is there any evidence or or anything that anyone ever came to see either Charlie Hickson or Calvin the quote unquote men in black if you will. I don't think there was any evidence of that.

36:55 With the uh USO. There was a lot of investigation in the stories, the Navy took it seriously. But with the abduction, which happened in about the same place and close to the same time, I don't think there was any investigation. And Philip found a letter that somebody from NASA had mentioned the NASA at that time should they pay attention to this, And NASA said no, but they're paying attention to UFOs now u A P. Yeah. Well, and and then and don't don't even get me started on that.

37:37 But that's that's beside the point. But NASA is finally getting in on the UFO, the UFO game, if you will, so hopefully, hopefully, you know, working with them will bring at least credit credibility to the field. Well, one reason they took the Coast Guard the USO seriously was because there is nuclear work going on on nuclear submarines and things, which was secret. But the abduction was, you know, in a place close to the nuclear facilities, just like the the USO. So they should have had interest in both of them.

38:22 Yeah, and the USO really intrigues me because

38:28 not only does it make sense that they you know, a lot of theories that are out there say that, you know, if there was a place to hide it'd be in the water now whether you know, of course, they're just speculating here, But you know, what could this craft have been doing? Do you think what's your if if you had to guess, you know, what do you think that this craft is doing? Because I would say that it was probably doing h like an experiment reconnaissance mission, or it was doing, you know, some sort of evaluation of the of the the atmosphere.

39:09 It seems logical that they would send probes here or because if this flap is happening right all around them and there's an abduction taking place, there's many UFO sightings. There's now USO sightings, right, so you have to assume that if there's a fleet of UFOs and this isn't just one craft that everybody's seeing, it's here for They're here for a reason. What would be your best guess? What? What? What narrative do you think you subscribe to the most? I actually have no idea, and I could just give a guess.

39:51 At that time, there was a lot of turmoil. There was a possibility of nuclear war, and there had been a death count three nuclear alert in between the abduction thing and the us O things. Also there Uh, there was the impeachment of Nixon, the Nixon resignation. Nixon was kind of running around the White House a little bit, maybe I'll read mine. And there was the the nuclear trigger there, and there was there was a possibility nuclear war was yeah, uh big worre in the Middle East and just everything like maybe all the confusion and possibility of nuclear war do something in But I don't know, right, I don't know.

40:52 No, that's okay, that's you know, it's it's it's it's understandable. But did you agree do you think that there is a connection between uh, nuclear weapons and I, well, nuclear technology, let's call it, because it's not always weapons. Do you think there's a connection between the two so water nuclear and UFOs? I don't know because they always say there's more UFOs over nuclear sites. And I talked to one of the men that was in charge of those missiles when the UFO flew over and changed the coordinates for the missiles.

41:36 Change change the coordinates or what turned them off or whatever? Okay, so yeah, the Robert Salas account. Mind, No, this was a different man Sellus. I can't think of his name right now, but yeah, Robert Sallas, No but it wasn't him I talked to. It was another person that was in charge of another oh okay, okay, I can't remember his name right now. But they always say there's more UFOs over nuclear sites. But you know, they obviously monitor nuclear sites a lot more closely than they would There could there could be a data bias.

42:12 Yeah, it could be, okay, and that makes actually really good sense. What do you think about people like a Vilbe. I'm from Boston, so he's right down the street. I live in Cambridge, which is where Harvard is. It's right around the corner for me. What what do you think about projects like the Galileo project and you know, these these more uh scientific endeavors that are that are happening. Do you think that there there that there we may not need even need the government to confirm this anymore. Well, I think that's a really good I mean, I'm for any type of investigation so long it's fairly scientific, and that's a good investing dation.

42:59 They might find something and then probably do it. I mean, they have more resources than just anybody, and so I think it's a good idea. A lot of people don't, but I do. Yeah, I've always said that. I think, uh, especially in the latest legislation that uh, you know from Chuck Schumer that basically uh starts a ticking clock. And also you know it mentions non human intelligence I think over twenty times, which is you know, just baffling. Uh. But with this legislation from Chuck Schumer, Uh, there I think there would be a lot of good data that came out because you know, essentially what they want is a clearinghouse, so a group of non you know, non biased people to go through and and you know, declassify documents based on whether you know, are they a threat to national security, et cetera, And and get some of these UFO files out in the public, uh, and get more of them out there, and start you know, inquiring about meta materials that may be housed in aerospace private corporations.

44:29 That way that you know, it avoids the Foyer process and oversight entirely by the government. And and uh, do you do you think the direct after everything that you've seen, after all the years in upology that that you've that you've had, are we the closest Are are we the closest to disclosure that we've ever been? Or is this just more smoking mirrors. Well, there's always been smoking mirrors and untruced from the government. They've had good data for ages and in nineteen forty seven they had projects sign and did a good analysis and said these things are not otherworldly yet yea, that they're not within our capability.

45:21 And now they're going back to where they were in nineteen forty seven with a whole lot of saying that there's no such thing in between. And I think it'd be nice if they just went from nineteen forty seven skipped all these other years. But I yeah, they're getting they seem to be getting a little closer, but they're still not interested in a lot of things. And one of them is close encounters. And they say it's fine if you see UAP and it's like miles away and you're seeing it from airplane. But they don't seem to even look at the idea that maybe sometimes they're close to people there, that they're that they're landing and or communicating and or allowing people to see them, abductions, whatever.

46:17 Yeah, I agree, but I I do you think the public is ready for disclosure? Well, some people will be and some people won't. And even if they disclose it. Lots of people wouldn't believe it. So I think that people that experience it definitely want disclosure, but almost for validation. Yeah. Yeah, but it goes to show you. I think that the mindset nowadays is that, you know, even twenty five years ago, if you surveyed one hundred people, seventy nine percent of them would say UFOs are fake, right, UFOs don't exist, maybe even higher that aliens don't exist.

47:17 But now if you take that same poll, it's opposite. Seventy nine out of or eighty out of one hundred will say that there's no way we're alone in the universe. There is life outside of Earth, and it could be and is most likely visiting our planet. Well, astronomy has changed a lot since nineteen forty seven. Just within the last ten years or so, we've found that that other stars have exoplanets, and they didn't know that before. They thought we were the only thing in the universe that had a planet.

47:54 And even though that's so logical because they couldn't figure it out anyway, but yeah, I mean, I think it's more logical to think that the same evolution happened here probably happened in other places, not the same but similar also, Okay, and and do you you know I don't, I don't. You don't have to answer this. But are you religious at all? Uh? Well, my opinion of religion is it's been kind to other people and animals and I try to do that. Yeah, yeah, I again agree, I agree. So but what impact do you think that this would have on on on religion?

48:43 And would because I think, hey, everybody tie here from total disclosure. Are you tired of dealing with messy spaces and never ending repairs? Do you live in the DC, Maryland or Virginia area? Need your oil changed? Your house cleaned? Well? Whatever? Guy Services is here to help. From residential to commercial home cleaning, repairs and vehicle repairs, office cleaning to building maintenance. They've got your back with their top notch cleaning and repair services. Their experienced professionals will transform your space, leaving it spotless and problem free.

49:20 But that's not all. They appride themselves in going the extra mile forward their clients. Their exceptional customer service ensures your satisfaction every step of the way. What are you waiting for? Stop worrying about cleaning and repairs and start enjoying the comfort of your space, whatever the job. They're the guys to call whatever guy services to get your free estimate, visit their website now whatever with an A W H A T E V A g U Y dot ze e dot am forward slash again get your free estimate by visiting their website.

49:59 The link is in the description below, and tell them total Disclosure sent you. What a lot of people say is this, if disclosure were to happen, that it would that it would disrupt, It would disrupt society to a scale where religion collapses. I think the opposite. I think new religions would be created and the existing religions would adapt. We see Christianity already doing so. We you know, the Muslims have always uh uh or or Islam has always uh kind of incorporated it uh. Is there a chance that that these UFOs have been here longer than we have and that maybe our religions are based on this technology.

50:53 I don't know if it's if it's technology, or if there's just something a whole lot different must that wouldn't even be like technology to us. Magic yeah, well not magic, but like just something that we just don't understand as yet, and I think there's a whole lot that we don't understand. And for some people in religion, I think it would be just devastating. But for others, I think, you know, like in Christianity says in my father's house there are many mansions. Well maybe that means there's lots of other beings.

51:30 And so I think it bother some people, but I think other people would be able to acclimate to it. Okay, okay. And and so you you still do a lot of work or or did a lot of work with the with the government, you know, as part of what is now the National Geospatial or National Geospatial Agency, is it. Yeah. I had tried to go get into astronomy, and back then they just didn't take females, and I really wanted to be an astronomer. So, uh, that organization it was, it had a different name back then, but they were mapping other planets, and so I tried to get into that, and I wound up with this real high security clearance and I went to the d i A. And I still didn't get that, you know, work on other planets, So I gave up and did other things.

52:36 Now, now you've been you've been in places like have you so so did you ever actually visit Right Patterson? Oh? Yeah. So all the claims that are made about rape Patterson, do you think there's any truth to them? Well, I've been in the in the secured area, and I've also been in uh put in the famous blue room, the Blue Room, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and attended a UFO meeting there and wrote it up with another person in a publication. M hm. And as so far as what's there, a lot of you know, a lot of whistleblowers have always said there's bodies and everything else there and I don't know, but I'm sure there's a lot of underground facilities of Right Patterson.

53:28 It's very very secured, and like the building I was in was just really secured. And even out on the parking lot there's these big machines that monitor every blade of grass, I think, which gives me that there's I mean, there have to be underground facilities because of

53:50 black I worked at the Ohire Department of Health and we had maps of like Right Patterson and the nuclear sites and things like on the Male Nuclear site in Ohio, they have underground chambers with sixteen foot wide walls and all things to make an earthquake proof. I'm sure they'd have things like that under right Patterson because of earthquakes and all kinds of things. You know, it might be probably big top bombing target, and so I'm sure they have a lot of underground facilities and have you know, a lot of secret information there.

54:30 But well, you know, the alleged Rozzo material was allegedly ended up there.

54:42 You know, I wonder if there's any truth to to to that. And I mean, can you you said you were there for a UFO meeting.

54:57 What UFO meeting? I don't know if you are allowed to talk about it. If not, just say so. But you were at right Patterson for UFO meeting? Who was there and what? Why was? What was the meeting about? It was a It took place actually in the Blue Room building, which I didn't know at the time. I found out later, but the I had met the archives for Right Patterson, Bruce Ashcroft, and he invited myself another person to the meeting. It was a meeting of the alumni of Project Blue Book. Oh okay, it was a He gave some slides and there were pictures of various people that had been in Project blue Book and headed it and everything.

55:51 And one thing that was interesting was is that one of the people mentioned gun camera pictures of UFOs and that's kind of what they have now, pictures of videos of airplanes. And the person who was conducting the meetings stopped and said, don't say anything. There's people here with no clearances, right, And so that gave me the impression that had we not been there, that there's been a totally different discussion, right, I mean, that's that's yeah, that's crazy. Actually, So you got to see the Blue Book alumni.

56:37 Who is there? From the alumni, I don't remember. They showed movies of the alumni, and I just don't remember. I have to look at my notes. Okay, yeah, no, no, no, I'm actually a little bit more interested in your work with move On. So you start, you sat on their board of directors from ninety three, which is when I was born, by the way, not to not to date you or anything, but from ninety three to two thousand, so for seven years you sat on the board of move On. I'm actually uh in, I'm actually working with the MoveOn UH state director in Massachusetts.

57:22 UH to to go tag along with Field investigators and do the filming and get witnesses on camera and stuff like that. So you you you consult for h physiology and astronomy, uh, and you also were a field investigator, did you you know what? What are some of the cases that stood out to you that you worked on? And is there anything that that you gained from your time at MoveOn that solidified your knowledge that we are not alone? Well? I think one about move On you is they have a real good database. Yes, that's what I'm excited to get access to that.

58:06 What do they what do they call it the cm CEE CEE I think or something CV or something? Yeah, I go, yeah, I forget, but they it's hard to get access to it though, right, So you have this. But but after you gained access and uh worked cases and and did all that, Uh you know what was is there are there any cases that stood out or that that you could talk about that you know you it's really really stood out? Well one of them was I don't remember if I investigated under move On or simply ELF. One that stood out was that it was called the logan uh dancing UFOs or something, and I forget it was nineteen nineties

59:05 there were these people in Logan, Ohio, lived in a farm away from the population center, and they began to see these discs, these red lit discs, flying around, especially over their cornfield, and they didn't know what they were. I mean, they weren't discs. They were orbs maybe, and they reported them. They reported them all over to Wright Patterson, to the police, to the TV stations and the news stations and everything, and people came out to investigate, such as the police. The police had no idea what they were and just went back and you know, said goodbye, and they continued to fly around, which was just an excellent, excellent report because a lot of people got a chance to see it.

1:00:00 And they said that when of them followed a car, and then one of them followed an air Later an airplane came and started doing a grid pattern, flying a grid pattern over the cornfield where they were, and when of them flew up and followed the airplane. And so they had contacted all the authorities. Authorities came out and looked and nobody had any idea what happened. And so anyway, then later another person and I went out to investigate and we talked to him and everything and left and then apparently they had another sighting right after she left, which is a shame.

1:00:48 Wow, Wow, that's such bad timing. Yeah, they filmed it, and then what was strange is simple years later I saw something like that over my place, and about a couple of years later I was looking at it and it was on the exact date is when we had been there and just miss seeing something. It's pretty weird. Yeah, that was almost a synchronicity. And because easily people just see something for a second, it disappears. Well, these were there for a long time. There were all kinds of investigators. So I'm sorry, I just lost my train of thought.

1:01:42 So can you repeat what you just said. These Usually some people see a UFO and it's not there very long. These were there a long time. They had ability to call all kinds of people and report it. Some authorities came out and looked at it and saw it, and it stayed a while, the phenomena. And did anyone get video of it? Yeah, they had video. It wasn't good though, because they didn't have it on tripod and it was sort of jumping shaky. Okay, well, if you could send me that video, I can include it here.

1:02:23 Yeah, you don't have to send it now, but that's for something for the future. So you also, uh worked with the d i the d I A, I believe doing satellite imagery. Now I find that now in your in your experience with the d I A and satellite imagery, do you believe that uh there you know there's evidence that the government has. You'd have to assume that the whole world is being watched by satellites, and you know, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days a year, all hours, all times.

1:03:10 Do you think that the d I A and all these other you know, Department of Energy and uh, the ng O and I mean the n r O and the ng ng O. Do you think that these they have the evidence of of something and more evidence than they led people to believe that that they have. Well, I think it's very logical that they would. My own experience there was for a while I worked for Air Order Battle and that was identifying aircraft over a particular area. And I didn't go around saying I see UFOs are My supervisors said that they had had a photograph of the photographs of a UFO and that they were very surprised because they reported it to their supervisors and their supervisors said, no, this didn't exist, and they it was a spot on the film.

1:04:13 Well, it wasn't a spot on the film because there are two pictures and I could get them adjusted and get them in stereo on everything. So and they had they sent the films to something called what they called Cincy Dency, the analysis Photographs, and they said, no, this is a real thing on the film. But their supervisors continued to say that this is a spot on the film. It's nothing, And so they were wondering what was going on with the I absolutely would be too, because there's too many accounts of the government or not, you know, because I hate to use that term government so broad so so boldly.

1:05:00 But there are people I think, I think there's factions in our government that a don't want it to come out and be do want it to come out or see they're indifferent and they couldn't care less. I I don't know. It is what it is, but the subject is is definitely becoming and is more mainstream now than ever, which is a good thing but also a bad thing because with that becomes it comes a lot of more fake videos. It comes more you know, people who are here just trying to take advantage of others and make money all those kind of things.

1:05:49 But we need a government, or not a government, but we need more people like yourself and more teams of of scientists working on this. Uh. Phenomena. I say phenomena because I think it's many different and not just one. Uh. I do want to ask you a couple of questions in in in your own words, if you could tell me with your work in astronomy, does the extraterrestrial hypothesis still make the most sense or do you think it could be interdimensional or by some other means? I really don't know. Another means is are we in virtual reality?

1:06:38 Is our reality real? Or do we are we just in a virtual type of reality like people report, you know things walk Anthony is walking through walls and different things like that, which we do. But so maybe we are in virtual reality or we also so maybe just very very primitive. I mean, you know, our authorities say we're the only intelligent life in the universe. Well, nobody's been around the universe to check that out, right, Maybe like nothing compared to lots of other life forms, right, yeah, yeah, that's actually a really good point.

1:07:19 Yet no one's last time I checked, no one went and scoured the universe to say that there's nothing out there. And if it, if you know, I always say, what a cosmic waste of space if we're the only life and I again, I really don't think so. But I want to go back to the being real quick from nineteen seventy three, the being. Can you describe the being that Calvin Parker and Charles Shickson saw, because this is unlike any other being that I've ever heard of. Well, it suggests that they did not hoax, because if they had hoaxed, they would look at what type of beings are in the media and what other people report.

1:08:11 They would have they would have probably reported the classic gray alien had it had it been a fake, yeah, something like that. And these were different, I mean the classic pictures of skinny things that you know, with big eyes and things, and these were sort of fat and didn't they weren't too sure if they even had eyes, and they didn't look anything like like the pictures of beings. And also they thought they were mechanical and they moved like robots, right, And so I run these two correlations, because do you think that you because we're talked about a simulation, right, where are our advancement with artificial intelligence just in the past couple of years alone?

1:09:04 Is it's frightening. It's frightening how fast it's it's developed. But could what we're seeing be some form of of hyper realistic you know, integrated AI that that are because a lot of people report that, you know, the either the grays they're very robotic in nature as well, or at least a hive mind, indifferent and cold, and it sounds like that they have all the same characteristics on the Calvin Parker abduction. It's just the what it looked like was different. This looked more like a robot. But do you think do you suggest do you think that that these are are potentially uh integrated artificial intelligence?

1:09:56 Well, I imagine so far as other life in the universe, there's probably other life in the universe. It's so far ahead of us that we can't even imagine. And they would have developed social intelligence too, right, So even if you're talking about UFOs, the whole thing may be artificial intelligence in a way, and it's easier to send robots and things. But it solves that biological issue. Yeah, you know, traversing you know, the the vastness of space. Something like an AI could do that because again it's not subject to life and death.

1:10:45 It's subject to its mission. So and and you know, artificial, you know, at least for me, if if I I think of advanced beings or or civilization that's more advanced than us, I figured these craft would be self replicating. And maybe that's what that's why this being looked a little odd. Was like maybe it's not an exact you know thing, it's just they they mind the materials along the way, and it's the void, the the von Neumann probe, you know theory. So it's creating creating itself over and over again.

1:11:28 And you know that way it can it can explore many areas of of of the universe and not just you know one. Yeah, I mean like their beings were just sort of like a generalized human. I mean like it had a head and a body and arms and where you have projections on your head, they had little things sticking out and everything. Yes human, yeah, yeah, and and so they so and what's been gaining a lot of attraction recently is so these beings seem to inject something into Calvin and Charles. And in the new book, you guys have the image of the puncture wounds.

1:12:16 Yeah. I don't know. At that time when it happened, they both you think you'd fight and run away. Well they couldn't. They were paralyzed instantly, and they thought maybe they were injected. And you know, because that happens in medical procedures, they inject you. But back in those days, I think he usually went out and they suddenly were paralyzed but conscious, and so they thought maybe they had been injected. Uh, but I don't know, you know, I don't want to come to any conclusions. But wasn't there what you know, wasn't there puncture puncture wounds from like what would be a needle?

1:13:05 Yeah, there were wounds on them. So okay, So I mean there there was some sort of thing that happened there. You're just saying, you I get it. I get what you're saying. You're just saying that you can't confirm it, but the evidence maybe suggests. So yeah, okay. And and you know with the Calvin Parker case, Uh, you know, the title of the book is Beyond a reasonable doubt. Are you convinced that beyond a reasonable doubt something took place October eleventh, nineteen seventy three, maybe across the country.

1:13:47 Well, I don't think it's stand up to scientific scrutiny, and I think it might be in a court of ball. Yes, yes, because I it sounds to me that something that that night, something something remarkable happened. Yeah, and extraordinary. And this didn't just span Pasca Gula, but also I Iowa where your mother was, and you know I I I think we should look more into that year and see if there was other flaps in other areas. Have you there were? Yeah, it might have been why there were big flaps in a lot of places.

1:14:35 Then they weren't all the same day, but you know, in that time the same time period. Yeah, uh, you know, given within a month or so a month's time. I And and it just goes to show that, you know, it seems we haven't had one of those big flaps in a long time. What do you say to that, because skeptics like to bring that up that you know, a case like like say the Phoenix lights, if that were to happen today, it would be undeniable that it happened because the picture quality would would have been able to

1:15:19 make out the shape of the craft that night. There's no doubt about it. And the camera technology that we have, there's no doubt about it. Skeptics bring this up a lot. Why hasn't a major sighting like that happened

1:15:36 recently? Do you think there's a case to be made for that. Well, back when there was Project blue Book, there was just this one main place to send reports, and so they were picking up reports from all over. But it was the same agency then when Project Blue Books stopped. This episode is brought to you by to Buddy. Use our code and sign up for two Buddy to start utilizing their amazing tools. Let to Buddy do the work for you. That's www dot two buddy dot com slash pop Pop. That's two buddy dot com slash pop pop guys.

1:16:21 To Buddy. I've been using it for some time. It helps you with the analytics, video ideas, title suggestions, tag results, and it helps you get your videos, your podcasts, and your content out to al wider, more broader, more selective audience. It's kind of what I use to make sure that I'm dotting my eyes and crossing my t's when it comes to video production. Guys, I can't say it enough. Sign up for two buddy, it's a no brainer. That's such a low cost per month, less than a cup of coffee each month.

1:17:02 You can be getting help with the SEO and analytical side of your content. All right, guys, get to buddy. Now,

1:17:17 you didn't know where to report, and like you know, Calvin tried to report to the Air Force makes and they said, no way, Well we don't deal in UFOs. Yeah, and so there was no central place to report. So it's hard to compare the data from UH from project right right right, I understand. Yeah, So so what you're saying is reports became scattered at that point, you know, through Nightcap, you know, either Nightcap or UH move on or whatever. So it's hard to gauge. But that's that's that's I find that to be really interesting and and and something definitely that I want to look into further.

1:18:05 So what do you have coming up and and and how you know, how can people get in touch with you for your work? Well, I'm on Facebook and they can contact me through Facebook, and I'm working on another book. Okay, about the basket Goolae case or a different case. No, just in general okay, cut, more like what the appearance of possible aliens are and the media appearance and all that, okay, and possibly what they're doing here. Well, I'd love to have you back on when that comes out and read it and uh and be able to talk to you about it.

1:18:46 So you're always welcome. Oh, thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah. No, no, you're always welcome in so you can be found on Facebook, like you said, Uh, you just authored the book Beyond a Reasonable Doubt with Philip Mantle, which is now available on all platforms that you can purchase books Amazon. Uh, your look, Uh, you know Barnes and Noble. Is it in Barnes and Noble? Well, any bookstore, contact Amazon and get it. Yeah, so you can get it a bunch of different ways, but all the links for that will be in the description below.

1:19:22 Guys, and we did we want to thank you Irena doctor for coming on. Uh and and we wanna we definitely want to have more conversation with you in the future and uh dive into this a little bit further. Time constraints of course always uh uh make make make room for for future conversations. So thank you so much for joining us today. Well, thank you and thank you for me Yeah, of course. And and again I think this pasting rule of cases is it's one of the ones that I think really need to be looked into.

1:19:58 It. It's uh, it's up there with the Betty and Barney Hill abduction, you know, Roswell, it's up there is one of these the highest profile cases. So you know, there's witnesses are starting to come out. Uh. You know, even since the book has been published, more people have been starting to come forward. Uh huh actually, can you speak to maybe that you know, how many people have come forward? Uh since the book came out. I don't know. I need to count how many people we have all the other two and I haven't done that, but more more than a few, more than more than a few have contacted and that's amazing.

1:20:39 So we we we definitely look forward to hearing any update about the past Goula case, and uh, we look forward to your new book. All the links will be in the description below for all your stuff. Thank you so much, doctor Irena and everyone out there. If you're watching or listening on Spotify or Apple podcasts, make sure to leave the podcast for a review, a five star review, and a written review. It helps grow the show. Become a member on Spotify or YouTube for his low as two ninety nine a month and for as high as nine to ninety nine.

1:21:16 It's whatever the show is worth to you. Everybody gets the same no matter what you pay, But it just depends on what the show means to you. You pick what you pay and everyone gets the same stuff. So early access to interviews like this one that you're watching now, as well as ad free content, a yearly gift after twelve months consecutive member ship, and my favorite, my favorite bonus content, so we will keep exploring the unknown together. Thank you so much, guys. We'll see you nexttent.