A Human-Alien Hybrid Program? With Whitley Strieber
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Speaker 1: Try to keep the aliens on their toes.
Speaker 2: There's a typical close encounter witness. They move around a lot, they all do. I'm not alone, right, but I've got the visitors living. I'm not the visitors, but people who are connected to them directly living just a short distance from where I am in Santa Monica.
Speaker 1: And the people connected to them. Who's them?
Speaker 2: The visitors, the Grays, Oh.
Speaker 1: You know, people that are connected to them?
Speaker 2: Of course, Oh, I am. That's why an implant, That's what it is. That's why what the implant in my ear is. It's it'll turn on during the interview and you'll be talking to me and to them.
Speaker 1: You don't have an implant to pull my leg.
Speaker 2: No, I'm not telling you the truth. You don't know about it. You never read the books.
Speaker 1: I read Communion.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, you've only read Community.
Speaker 1: You've only read Communion.
Speaker 2: Okay, well let's talk about it.
Speaker 1: You have forty books, I mean I don't have. I got yeah, I accord, like three of these.
Speaker 2: I understand that. I understand that. Okay, yeah, I have this. Well, i'll tell you the story. I'll just give you a brief presis now perfect. It was put in in nineteen eighty nine. I was wide awake when it was done. It was done by two people people. There's a whole lot of people who are connected with the visitors are connected with them, and these were two of them. And I couldn't use it for years, but after my wife died it began to become useful and it now is my absolute go to. It's like having an unbelievable AI, only whatever's on the other side of it is not artificial but brilliant.
Speaker 2: And it works with me when I'm writing. At three o'clock every morning, I get up and there's a dialogue that goes on. It's not like channeling. It's much more direct than that. It's very direct, and during interviews it will be working most of the time, and it turns sometimes it will turn off in the middle of an interview, which turn off. Yeah, then it's like my mind becomes much smaller. It's what it feels like is your mind gets very large. You have a very large complex and all kinds of things are available to your memory that aren't normally there, and then when it turns off, you're back to being your normal self.
Speaker 1: Can you see it behind your heel? It. Yeah, you can feel it right here? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Have you ever like had a doctor look at it? Absolutely, it's I've got an MRI scan of it. In fact, i'll send it to you on one, I mean a CT scan of it.
Speaker 1: Is it online? We can look at it?
Speaker 2: Oh, let me.
Speaker 1: You don't have to show right now, we can we can. You can send it to us after and we can look at it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll give it to you afterwards. I can just send it to it's right here, I have it.
Speaker 1: And what and what does it look like?
Speaker 2: On the a little white dot because it's metal and on the CT scan it looks like a round white dot. It you want to see it now?
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, let me see it. Yeah, I'd love to see it.
Speaker 2: This is you know, being connected to this doesn't mean I love them, I'm I'm their friend. It does mean that I don't know exactly who I am connected to. But whoever I am connected to, uh is is uh ah?
Speaker 1: Let me see if I can find it easily? And what did what made you decide to leave it in your ear? And my wife?
Speaker 2: My wife at the beginning when I realized the next morning, I'll tell you the whole story on the air.
Speaker 1: I think we're rolling. We're up. Oh, we're up. Now we're not live, but we're recording it. Yeah, okay, this this is great.
Speaker 2: All right because yeah, after the day after it was put in, I felt it and I could feel it back in their hurt, and you know, I knew something had happened the night before. I remember it vividly. I remember every detail. But uh well, let me let me, let me hear it is good. You take a look. You can see it. That's the left side that's reversed on a on a CT scan. See that little white dot on the left side. Yeah, that's the implant.
Speaker 1: And what did your doctors or whoever did the MRI I say about it?
Speaker 2: The CT scan? That CT scan was done by someone in the CIA? What who wanted it very badly to be taken out? But I wouldn't let him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you get a CT scan done by somebody in the No?
Speaker 2: On the CT scan was done privately at his request by a doctor who he called and sat up.
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you get how did a CIA person get to find out about your implant?
Speaker 2: I'm known to them to the IC to be a legitimate close encounter witness and they are interested in that.
Speaker 1: Why do you think the CIA is so interested in people who have had close encounters?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think they kind of backed into it because their brief is foreign intelligence, and this is about as foreign as foreign intelligence can get. And when the CIA was first founded, the Roswell incident occurred, the Army Air Corps became the Air Force, and the CIA was founded, and the National Security Act was passed all in the same few months. And this was like July July forty seventh, July to October forty seven, and so all of the infrastructure was then in place, and I think it was just a very natural thing that CIA would be the go to agency to study this, and that's what happened.
Speaker 2: Who was it? Who was the first guy who studied worked on it? He became the Russia Desk later.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah, is this a weird desk guy?
Speaker 2: No? No, No, the Russia Desk was He was a Oh anyway, I met him in college before I knew anything about any of this. I had breakfast with him without knowing why. So he already knew that this probably would happen to me when I was in college in the sixties.
Speaker 1: You randomly met him at breakfast?
Speaker 2: No, I didn't randomly meet him. He called me and said that he wanted to meet me, and I said I have classes, and he said, well, why don't we have breakfast? And so we went to breakfast together at the Commons at the University of Texas, and he oh. I remember now. I had told my father, who was not a member of the intelligence community but his brother was, and he knew a lot of people in it, that I was interested in possibly joining the Central Intelligence Agency because I knew a little bit about my brought my uncle's work in the Air Force intelligence and it sounded exciting.
Speaker 2: I was an innocent young kid, and Dad said, as usual, closed mouthway, Okay, Well, you'd have to fill out an application, wouldn't you, And I said, yeah, I would. He said, well, god, we'll go ahead and find see if they send you an application, fill it out. He sounded real cheerful about it. So I went about finding out how to apply, and a few days before I even applied, this call comes from this man whose name is still blocking me. On being seventy nine years old, you have these things with mental these name block it anyway.
Speaker 2: This guy calls out of the blue at my dorm.
Speaker 1: Is it Ron Pandelphi? No, no, no.
Speaker 2: Ron Pandelphie was much younger. This was this Ron. This was a serious member of the organizers. Lem Me, I'm going to look. He was eventually drummed out because he became obsessed with.
Speaker 1: Moles, a lot of moles during the Cold War. Yeah, well, I don't know why I can't remember his name. That's okay, it doesn't matter. We can keep going. Yeah, it's probably best not to say too many CIA folks names this podcast anyways, because.
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's okay. It's he's dead and he's well known.
Speaker 1: He's nothing, it's nothing new, it's nothing.
Speaker 2: I don't I don't say that. I don't want to say any names of living CIA agents, except the ones who are out like uh Semi Van, Jim Semi Van. I mean, everybody knows he's in c A, makes no secret of it. So it was, well, I can't remember his name.
Speaker 1: Do you want to put your headphones on or do you prefer not to have them on? Does it does it bother your ear?
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, I'm it bothers this a little bit. Yeah, because this gets very hot while I'm working, and with a headphone, it gets really.
Speaker 1: So what did the CIA so? The CI, this guy we're talking about, he told you you needed to get well.
Speaker 2: He said to me that I was too patriotic and that the CIA was infiltrated with Russian moles and I would get killed if I become became an officer.
Speaker 1: You would be killed by a mole.
Speaker 2: That's what he said.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you were too patriotic, been too too patriotic.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if that was true or not, but it scared the hell out of me because suddenly I was talking to this little gnomic man in a black suit and he's telling me that I'm too patriotic and I should not join the CIA because it's full of Russian moles, and I thought, Holy God. Eventually he was fired because of his obsession with Russian moles or forced to retire.
Speaker 3: A little bit of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia, Well something was wrong with him, But at the time he was, you know, a major guy in the Central Intelligence Agency.
Speaker 1: In the in the fifties, sixties.
Speaker 2: Fifties and sixties. I know how to find it. I'm gonna look on chat GPT. Okay, it's just right on tip of my tongue. I've probably heard of his name.
Speaker 1: I had a guy in the podcast name John Newman who wrote a book called Popov's Mole, all about Russian moles in the CIA leading up to the Kennedy Kennedy assassination. There was moles that we were infiltrated with moles, and they were infiltrated with moles. It was crazy. I think they probably had more more Russian moles inside the CIA than we had the other way around. I'm sure you find it.
Speaker 2: No, it won't tell me.
Speaker 1: That's okay.
Speaker 2: Some of the bullshit about the classified documents, what specific words.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he can look it up.
Speaker 2: He was the CIA Russia Desk in the fifties and sixties and early sixties, and he was eventually drummed out because of his.
Speaker 1: His CIA officer in charge of Russia Desk fifties, nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties. Yes, Harold Jim, it was Jim Angleton. Jim oh, oh, James Jesus Angleton. Yeah anyway, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know a lot about that guy. His son actually lives here in Tampa. He did interest anymore. What I think his son lives here in Tampa. Well, anyway, he told me that Jim Angleton told me that the CIA was had Russian moles in it, and then I would be likely killed because I was too patriotic if I joined it.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And uh so yeah there he is. Wow man, he smoked like a chimney under anything like it. Uh. Anyway, he was apparently my dad knew him or somehow my name got to.
Speaker 1: Him, or how was your dad involved in all that? I don't know. Whenever your dad was in the Air Force.
Speaker 2: No, my dad was in the army during World War Two in the Judge Adfrica General's Corps. And he said a number of things about what he did. He said he found rental housing for war widows, war women whose husbands were at war. And he also said he picked up cigarette butts on the streets of Fort sam Houston and that was his war work. In other words, he wasn't telling me truth, right.
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Speaker 2: That was also Dad was so secretive you couldn't tell. He seemed to be. His brother in law was Attorney General of Texas all through the nineteen fifties, and he used to go out to Odessa to his brother in law's house where they would meet with LBJ. And once the whole family went out and took a big family picture, so I know it it's real. But Dad just never said much of anything about anything. He had a very successful career as an oil operator and a lawyer. He was apparently fluent in Spanish, although I have never heard him speak a word of it.
Speaker 2: Because he was an expert at finding Spanish Empire land titles, which is a very important issue in Texas. Probably is in Florida too. It's it called Spanish from the from the Spanish Empire, right, the land titles that go back, you know, because the titles can be valid all the way back there's they weren't they weren't ever the titles, at least in Texas weren't ever vacated.
Speaker 1: All of Texas used to be Mexico, right, right, exactly.
Speaker 2: And when the Republic of Texas came along, they didn't want to vacate all of the Hispanic people's titles because.
Speaker 1: Right because they the USA just swallowed up like a ton of Mexico, right, yeah, right, people.
Speaker 2: People out the Republic of Texas, and then and then when it came into the USA, the titles just stayed intact, got it, Okay. So so Dad was an expert at that meaning he must have known Spanish very well, but he never spoke it.
Speaker 1: In my presence, in my life. Interesting he.
Speaker 2: As far as this stuff is concerned. I remember him taking me out to the country house to meet these visitors a couple of times.
Speaker 1: Your dad taking you to the country house meets the well, I don't have any my memories.
Speaker 2: Stop at the I'll tell you one of the stories.
Speaker 2: All of a sudden one day, one evening, he said, said, we're going to go out to the country house to me, and.
Speaker 1: We left. It was it was.
Speaker 2: I don't know what time it was, but it felt pretty late to me. I was a little boy. I was probably eight nine maybe at most, and I was pretty confused, but I didn't say anything, because you know, I didn't want to contradict my dad, you know, I I he was just told me we were going there. We got there and we went up onto the It had a big wrap around double porch upstairs and downstairs. A beautiful old house is still in the family, and unfortunately for me, it's in the I'm the distaff side, so it's it's in my cousin's side at the actual ownership.
Speaker 1: But I still am allowed to go there anytime I want.
Speaker 2: Any case. We went there and we went onto the porch and then out into the front yard. It was a beautiful night, and this thing that was square looking and very brightly lit came flying over the house, tumbling over and over and went down into the pasture behind the house, and I could see a glow back there. Dad became completely silent. He was just standing there like he was turned off, and I knew I had to go down there. When this car came up to the driveway, moving very fast, faster than a normal car could, and it had two lights, but they were not bright, you know, they didn't shine.
Speaker 2: They were kind of dull glowing. They glowed dully, they didn't shine like regular car lights. And it moved very fast and stopped very suddenly, and I immediately knew I had to walk down into the back pasture and I where that glow was. And I did it. But I don't remember anything about what happened there, and that's the last of that memory. I don't remember being taken home or anything, but I guess I was. Another thing that happened was and this one was I remember pretty vividly. All of a sudden, after dinner, the family, my father announced that the family was going to the country house, but I was going to stay in San Antonio and I was eleven, And so they all pack up in the car and go driving off fifty miles north of San Antonio, leaving their eleven year old boy alone in the house.
Speaker 2: And you know, I have my dog and I watch a little TV. I get a little nervous and scared, you know, because I've never really done that before. And finally I go up to stairs to go to bed, and my bedroom had a window air conditioner in it, with the window above the sash. The upper sash was filled in so that it couldn't be pulled down. It had been pulled down, and all the insulation and others hanging out. And I could see on the roof of the house outside that I was on the second story, and there was a first story roof wing beside my room.
Speaker 2: There was a man standing there. I could see him in the dark, and I scared the living daylights out of me.
Speaker 1: So I ran.
Speaker 2: Downstairs and called the country house and I told my mother answered, and I told her that there was a man on the roof, and she said, well, call the police. And I said I would call the police, but there was no nine to eleven in those days, and I didn't know how to call the police. So I was looking in the phone book for a number for our local police department, Terrell Hills, Texas, and finally found it and I called him and I said, I'm home alone and there's a man on our roof. And so they sent a police officer and the following thing happens.
Speaker 2: Now, this is a little Texas one horse town in those days, so maybe he wasn't the best police officer in the world, and maybe that's why this happened. But he pulls up to the front of the house and he gets out, and he's got this huge gun in his hand, and he's walking up stalking up to the house, looks terrified, and I think, my what is going on?
Speaker 1: Why is he already scared?
Speaker 2: And so he comes into the house and I said, you can see him in the standing up on the roof, and if you go in the bed, and I pointed him out, and he goes up the stairs and immediately comes running down again, yells as he's passing there's nobody there. There's nobody there, runs back to his car and drives away.
Speaker 2: And there I am.
Speaker 1: And this was when you were how old? Eleven?
Speaker 2: Eleven eleven? And then my next memory is getting my breakfast the next morning and having them come in before noon. And I don't think anything was ever said about it.
Speaker 1: Now, all these memories that you have of your childhood, and all these experiences that you have from your young childhood, those didn't surface until I mean correct me if I'm wrong. But those seem to surface around in the eighties, is that right?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: No, these two, these two have always been with me. These two have always been the ones that surfaced later. And I wrote a book about this, called The Secret School. I'm very iffy about, you know, because memory. I've studied memory a lot, right, and memory is memory is not It's not marble, it's not even plastic. Memory is a liquid. It's a liquid. And so if you've got something fixed in your memory, that's a special kind of memory. Most memories are very malleable and very changeable. And you know, witness testimony is not reliable testimony.
Speaker 2: It never has been right, And unfortunately still in our courts we put people in jail all the time, all over the Western world, in fact, all over the world, based on bad memories. And so I'm very wary of my memory and very careful. So I don't talk about like in a situation like this, I don't talk about things that aren't direct fixed memory. I don't like the other memories from childhood. You can read The Secret School and decide for yourself whether or not you think they're true.
Speaker 1: To see, I didn't read the secret.
Speaker 2: Okay, well a secret schools. It's about my childhood.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you. Sorry to interrupt, but real quick, So was Communion your very first book about this about this stuff, and Communion was is arguably like one of the most popular books on this topic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's as far as I know, it's the most popular.
Speaker 1: It is the most popular book on alien abductions and this phenomenon in modern history.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it it initiated if the if contact is real, the book initiated contact. I mean it because it woke up millions of people up to those that face with those big black eyes on the cover.
Speaker 1: Now is your when you wrote about these creatures with the typical gray aliens with the big heads and the big black eyes. Were you the first one to bring this into the public sphere or was this already? Were there already like films being made about this? Not Betty and Barney Hill.
Speaker 2: Betty and Barney Hill's descriptions weren't like mine exactly?
Speaker 1: Were they prior to you?
Speaker 2: Though? Yeah? Okay, I knew about I had seen I think I'd seen an article in Look magazine about Betty and Barney Hill years before. But my interest in this was zero I had by the time I was in high school. I had those funny memories, but they didn't you know, they didn't really they just hung there because they didn't have They made no sense, and I didn't think about them. I had well, I had a period of time when I became very depressed in my early teens, because I think now it was because I used to have a lot of contact with the visitors when I was a boy, and they quit contacting me after I reached puberty.
Speaker 2: But here's the peculiar part of this. I was so depressed that my parents were afraid for my life, and they decided to for me to see a psychiatrist. And there was a period of time when there was a lot of discussion about who should he see. I end up with an army general who has a security clearance and who is a big psychiatrist in the US Army. Now why would they choose that person? And he says to me, Whitty, you can say anything you want to me. You can tell me anything. I didn't know what to think because I didn't have by that time.
Speaker 2: I just had those two memories, but they weren't important, and they weren't they didn't feel like why I was feeling so sad.
Speaker 1: Right, So is this around the time where you they put you on in Randolph Air Force Base or something?
Speaker 2: Now that happened earlier. Okay, Now that's another case where I thought for a long time that maybe that never happened.
Speaker 1: Maybe it never happened.
Speaker 2: But here is what proceeded to occur a few years ago. My closest friend in the world isn't very prominent in his field. He lives in Texas. I don't say his name because I don't. People would be very surprised if the two of us were know that two of us were such close friends.
Speaker 1: But we are.
Speaker 2: Each of us is the closest friend the other has. And I was telling him about this and his wife, and I was saying, and we were talking about it, and I had talked about it, and I was saying, you know how I was talking about memory actually is how it came up, and saying how dubious I was about memory. And he suddenly says to me, well, I.
Speaker 1: Remember that was specifically was he talking about?
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you, I said, you remember, he said, yes, I was recruited. I was in the living room when they came and recruited me two Air Force officers. They recruited me asked my parents if I could join this program for bright children, which was a special education program at Randolph. And I was amazed, and I said, and you didn't. They didn't let you join? I said no, he said no. They mentioned when they mentioned a skinner box. My parents said they didn't want me involved because they didn't think that that was a good idea.
Speaker 2: And the idea as was as it must have been told to my parents. I was not present when I was recruited, and therefore I don't know what was said to them. That the child would be placed in this box that would use repetitive teaching for a high speed learning of advanced subjects. That was probably what they were told, because that was what the other parents were told. And so this boy did not get into this program. But I did get into it. I did. I got into it in July of nineteen fifty two. I thought for a while it was earlier, but it was not earlier.
Speaker 2: It was July of nineteen fifty two. And I'll tell you, I know that it was extremely stressful.
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Speaker 2: I went on Thursdays and I was I don't remember anything about it except being confined and they're being a very loud noise involved. That's all I remember. I confined. Yeah, I was like I guess I was in the skinner box. But that's what they said the other the parents of the other boy. Skinner Box Skinner BF Skinner was a
Speaker 2: was a psychologist who practiced in the nineteen fifties who came up with an idea of a high speed learning system where the person was placed in this box and was fed repetitive learning as I understand it, but I don't remember any competitive learning. I remember really loud noise, and in any case, I was in the skinner box. I guess that being in the skinner box must have been very stressful, because when I was going to school in that fall, I began to get all kinds of illnesses. I couldn't go to school for a few days before out coming down with another cold.
Speaker 2: And they took me to the doctor and the doctor said, he has no white blood cells. He's under tremendous stress of some kind. And they took me out of that. And where did I end up being treated for this lack of an immune system was at Brooke General hospital again a military hospital, and they gave me shots of gamma globulin, and I remember very vividly because the needles were huge, and I was a little boy, and these were doctors who were only used to dealing with adults. In one time, and maybe more than when the needle went all the way through my arm and got a globulin and went down my chest.
Speaker 2: So and I was there for a few days and very scared because I was alone and they didn't they I was in isolation, and you know, there was a sheet over the door, as I recall, and no one would come in, and when they did come in, they had masks on, and it was very scary. In fact, it scares me now thinking back on it. Anyway, soon I was sent home and I was isolated. I couldn't go I could get my food only in my bedroom, and then during the day when my sister was gone, I could go downstairs and go in the backyard and stay in the backyard.
Speaker 2: And so I was out of school from October through January until January. Interestingly enough, when my mother died, I found one thing she had saved from all my school years, which was my report card from that year. With all of the nun's neat handwriting absent due to illness, absent due to illness for all of those months. And I showed it to my sister and she said, how did you get this? My sister was eighteen months older than me, she's deceased now. And I said, well, it's in mother's box, her keepsakes.
Speaker 2: She said she should never have kept this, and I said, well, I'm going to keep it. The next thing, I knew it had disappeared, and my sister told me she didn't know where it was. She took it and hit it or threw it out for some reason. She did not want that known that you miss school. No, she didn't want the evidence. And I don't know whether she was programmed to do it, or she knew more about it than I did or not. I don't know, because maybe Mother had talked to her about it. I think Mother felt very guilty about it.
Speaker 2: That's why she would say that all those years, what do you think was going on?
Speaker 1: What do you think they were doing to kids like you at this military base that was this progressive learning? That was stressed that it wasn't progressive learning.
Speaker 2: I have theorized about it. I can't remember anything except the loud noise. This is my living memory. What I even have started a novel about it, called The Changeling, which I'm never going to finish because nobody will buy my fiction, only my nonfiction. Now, you know, I want to I want to eat eat, So I just anyway, maybe the maybe I will finish it and my kids can publish it after I die. It'll tell the whole story, the novel as fiction. But what I will say now is that I think they might have been trying to get me to leave my body to and are something like that.
Speaker 1: It was not like mk Ultriss been off or something.
Speaker 2: It was before and right before m k Ultrists started. And I think it had something to do with that sort of thing. And but what I mean, that's just a wild guess. Really, there could be any number of things they were trying to do.
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows, God.
Speaker 2: I mean, one thing I do know, whatever they were trying to do, it was total bs and it just hurt a little boy terribly and they should pay me for that, but they never will. You know, the records they always looking for these records in this disclosure, Congress is demanding that the records be brought forward, and then the DoD says, we don't have any records, and they're not lying because they've of offloaded them to the defense industry so they don't have to be FIA doesn't matter that the records aren't there in any case, as Art x and General X and Arthur x And told me long ago, he was a close friend of my uncle's and they were both at Right Field at the Air Materiel Command when the debris and bodies were brought in.
Speaker 1: So Roswell from.
Speaker 2: Roswell, yeahteen and July of nineteen forty seven. So no one can tell me it didn't happen, because it did, as I didn't get lied to by my own family and a good friend like General Xen, who was a very distinguished officer and also was commandant of Right pat for a long time.
Speaker 1: So what do you think that was? That Roswell? What do you think crashed? Oh?
Speaker 2: I can tell you precisely what crashed.
Speaker 1: It?
Speaker 2: Whyat crashed? I can't tell you. It was a device containing three entities which were part of the device. Essentially, they were biological entities, and supposedly one of them was still alive when it was brought to right. But General Xen didn't say anything about that. The only thing, and he didn't tell me this directly. He told me, told one of my relatives this that he had held one in his arms and it was like a big insect. That was this precise description. My uncle said that he had not. He didn't refer to the bodies.
Speaker 2: He referred only to the debris and the and the object, which he said was somewhat intact. And so they had from Roswell partially intact object and some debris.
Speaker 1: And bodies, three bodies, three bodies.
Speaker 2: And Walter Howt, who was the press officer at at the at the Army Air base in Roswell, left a an Affidavid which was published by his family after he died, describing all of this, the bodies and so forth, in great detail. And he said to me, I went out to Broswell to talk to him. He wouldn't talk about the bodies. I asked him point blank, were their bodies? And he was simply silent. He wouldn't say yes. He wouldn't say no because he didn't like to lie. He was a very straight up guy, straight ahead guy.
Speaker 2: What was And so he left this This is as much as he could do, and Colonel Jesse Marcel left a videotape with thanks to Stanton Friedman, where he describes in detail the debris that he found and brought in to his home in his station wagon with his little boy, who Doctor Marcel passed away just a couple of years ago, who attested to this story also, so it happened.
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard any Jacobson's account of this crash.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's correct. Yes, I do know it very well.
Speaker 1: It seems really compelling. I know it's I know a lot of people aren't a fan of that theory, but it's interesting that she's the only one that talks about it and no one else seems to appreciate it or take it seriously at all. You think it's you think the guy who told her. Essentially, for people that are listening, there's a Inny Jacobson wrote in her book Area fifty one that there was an engineer of a private aerospace company or something like that who was working in Arizona or Nevada who told Annie, under anonymity that the device that crashed in Roswell was a right brothers or something engineered craft like some sort of human made flying saucer with children that were surgically manipulated to look like aliens from the Nazi Mingel or mingle A.
Speaker 2: His name was, Yeah, I know the story, but go ahead and tell it.
Speaker 1: Because I just saw people who aren't familiar with it. Yeah, And essentially Stalin sent the aft over here, remote controlled it over here, and crashed it with these children, these Russian children that were deformed by this Nazi to sow chaos within the United States.
Speaker 2: Okay, I can tell you a lot about that and where that comes from.
Speaker 1: And let me let me just finish the end of it. She asked, this guy, Steven, you could probably find his name if you just google Annie Jacobson, engineer Roswell I find out who his name actually was. She actually talked about it on Lex's podcast Lex Friedman podcast recently, and she asked him later. She goes, you know, why wouldn't you make this public? Why is this such a big secret? Why are you waiting until you're essentially on your deathbed to tell me this? Why didn't you guys sit Because if you guys would have let the public know when this happened, it would not hurt the image of America.
Speaker 1: It would hurt the image of Russia because it makes them look like, you know, sikkos. It makes them look like like sinister people. The fact that they would do something like this, and his response to Annie was because we started doing the same thing as soon as we found what they did. As soon as we found out that they were altering children and doing this stuff in Roswell or in Russia, we started experimenting with the same thing. And we know that in the I think it was the seventies and eighties that there was projects going on on the East coast of the United States where they were injecting children with plutonium and all kinds of you know, nuclear material to test on them.
Speaker 1: I think Bill Clinton shut it down in like the early nineties.
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about that, and therefore I can't speak of it. But what I can speak of is of is what I do know. I'll circle back for a moment to General Xen and my uncle after I before I published Communion, I knew nothing about General xon and I knew nothing about my uncle's work in the Air Force. Nothing nobody in the family did. I knew one thing about it. Thing, which was that he had seen when they blew off a gigantic hydrogen bomb the Russians did in nineteen fifty nine, I think. And I happened to be at staying at an aunt and uncle's house in Washington at the time with a friend, and suddenly my uncle shows up.
Speaker 2: The aunt and uncle were on vacation in Spain, and he told me. I asked him, because I knew he was an intelligence officer, I just didn't know what he did. And I said, what do you think of this massive h bomb that went off they blew off in Russia? He said, oh, I saw it. It's the size of a football field. And I thought he saw it. How did he see it? And I said, when did you see it? He just laughed and didn't say anything more. So he was in, you know, in other words, he was deep in this intelligent in Air Force intelligence.
Speaker 2: Apparently, now after Communion was published, he suddenly telephones me. Now at this point he's in retirement at retirement village in Lachland at Lachland Air Force Base in San Antonio. Says Witty, I want you to come down. I've got some things I would like to talk about that have to do with your book, and I thought. I hung up and I said to Anne, my wife, I said, Mickey's going to talk to me about my book. Can you believe this? And so I go down and he and his wife and me and Anne have a lunch, and he talks about the debris and the object.
Speaker 2: As he put it, he I didn't ask him directly about bodies because it didn't occur to me at the time. I was just I hadn't done much. I hadn't been to Roswell yet, for example, and or no, I had been to Roswell, but I hadn't. In any case, it didn't the bodies didn't come up. He he he may have alluded to him. I've never been sure. I'm trying to remember if I you know, I always say that he didn't say anything about the bodies, and I don't think. I don't think I asked him anything about them directly.
Speaker 2: I did ask General Xen about them, and he said that he and General Xen had worked on this project it right pat at right Field at the time and air Material under General Twining and who was the head of air Material at the at the time. And he told me about the debris and as I say, I think he alluded to the bodies may not have And he introduced me to General Xen, who I talked to on the phone a number of times, who told me a great deal about the whole thing, more than he knew, more than much more, and Mickey did because he had been a higher level officer at the time.
Speaker 2: I think Mickey was a major and he was a colonel at the time. And General Xen said, and I'm quoting him, and he's been quoted in an unfortunate interview public interview that's in a book by Don Schmidt and Randalls and Schmidt that everyone from Truman on down, as he put it, knew that what we had found was not of this world within twenty four hours of our finding it. Now, let's go back to the story of the altered children.
Speaker 1: Yes, and by the way, just to quick aside, the guy's name is Alfred O'Donnell.
Speaker 3: That's the and he was an EG and G engineer. Okay, this is the guy who told me gg wrot Trump. So can you copy and paste his name into a new tab so we can get some more background on that guy?
Speaker 1: Sorry, go ahead, Okay, So.
Speaker 2: This is where that I think that story comes from immediately. Here is the situation, the world situation as it stood at that time. Stalin has four and a half million soldiers fully equipped, largely with top notch American equipment, on the what is now being called beginning to be.
Speaker 1: Called the Iron Curtain Line.
Speaker 2: NATO, or rather, the Allies are telling Churchill and I guess to Gaul and Truman that this army can move across western Europe in six weeks and in all probability will be able to successfully invade England because the West has demobilized and they have not. So what is preventing them? Why don't they do it? There's one thing on the planet that's preventing them. It is the five hundred and ninth bomb wing at Roswell, which is believed to be equipped with nuclear weapons, right and can deliver them to Russia.
Speaker 2: And Stalin knows that his radars and his anti aircraft systems are not sufficiently robust to guarantee that all of the planes will be destroyed. So the biggest secret on the planet upon which the hinge of door of history is hinged is that bomb wing right there at Roswell. Right, do they really have the bombs or not? Is it? What is the situation now? I was told by somebody who was who's it was at the base, and he was an older man, and I I am I don't remember his name. I'm not in the business of not saying names, by the way, I try to say all the names I can remember.
Speaker 2: But this is a guy who he told me that they did not have all of the planes were only a couple of the planes had were actually operational at that time. And the result of this was the immediate thought when they found the debris and wreckage thirty miles north of Roswell an apparent balloon. The fear was that he had sensitive equipment on there that could have detected the level of radiation coming from the base if he'd gotten near enough, and determined from that whether or not there were really bombs on the base.
Speaker 2: And this caused a tremendous upset. That's why, when the disc story was being disseminated by Walter Howt, it was suddenly killed by the Pentagon because they weren't afraid of aliens. They'd never even heard understand in those days, that idea was not something people thought about people from another planet we aren't even I mean, maybe they'd think from Mars or something. They had no information, nothing like what we have now about outer space. So their immediate thought was these were people, these were Russians, and because they were small, the assumption was they were children.
Speaker 2: And then the cover story was the story that they were altered children.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that was never the story about them being altered children was never released into the public officials, no.
Speaker 2: No, but it went all over the Air Force, went all over the Air Force. Because my uncle mentioned it. He said that that was the story that was told in the Air Force, that that was what was told. Okay, and because he was definite, no, art was definite about the bodies. He said they were not human at all. And in fact, well I know they weren't human. I'm quite certain of it. And you know for a fact pretty much. Okay, Well, you know it'll all come out. It's it's not your thing, I know. So, but how do you know?
Speaker 2: This has to do with time? And it is like an an onion being peeled, you know, you peel one layer and another layer and another layer, and the deeper you get, the closer you get to the heart of the matter. And the worse, it smells. So it's that's where we are.
Speaker 1: Do you think that the government has played out out some sort of simulated like war games but for society on what happens if this sort of stuff comes out?
Speaker 2: And I don't think the government has much to do with the decision making process here. I think the decision making processes elsewhere, and it's with these non human presences and not directly with us. I'm pretty sure that's the case. And I think they probably manipulate the defense departments quite extensively in order to be sure that exactly what they want done is done at the right time.
Speaker 1: Who manipulates the Defense department? These these creatures, the off world visitors, yeah, the visitors, yeah.
Speaker 2: And as to how they do it, there could be direct interface very easily. If it's not direct interface, then I have experienced fluent telepathy with them and with human beings who look human but also have these abilities, And therefore I think that that could be used to affect the minds of people, and especially people who are not familiar with that and do not have any experience of it. They may be easily deluded into thinking that it's their own thoughts. Now, another thing though, that has happened, is that is regarding the secrecy and the reason that the defense industry is so determined to excuse me.
Speaker 2: Another thing that's happened, and the reason the defense industry is so determined to keep this under wraps is the following and how Putoff has now talked about this publicly. So at the Sole Foundation conference, and it was in October of the last year of W's presidency. A committee, a group of committees actually were convened by the White House in Washington and told everyone was who was involved were people who had worked on this extensively and their companies, representatives of their companies go out and consult with each other in groups, in separate groups, and provide us with a report as to whether or not you think we should make this public.
Speaker 2: And everyone went into the thing thinking, wonderful, we're going to do this right now and maybe maybe win w Beck the presidency in November. But they all came back with the same recommendation, do not release this. And the reason is this, you have to understand how patents work. You can't find something in the ground like a stone or a mineral that's an unknown mineral and patented. You have to create a process, a process that is patentable. A natural object is not patentable. So all of this debris, all of these objects that are are in a gray area.
Speaker 2: And what's the most complex part of it is not all companies that have an interest in the development of processes and other materials based on what's been found have had access to it because the access was given to the companies that already had the correct track in terms of security clearances into the company because they the Defense Department made a decision a long time ago. I think that they would not be giving they would not be going to a company and saying you need to get this in this in this type of classification or security clearance in order for us to do this, because they were afraid that that would would open the door would leak.
Speaker 2: And the result is some companies have profited immensely from these processes and have patented things that are not actually patentable. The found material specifically is not patentable, okay, not legally patent not legally patentable. And they know this, and they also know that there would be a not only is there possible criminal activity involved, but all of the companies that have been left out of the picture have a massive grievance and and us to sue the other companies. And this is why this committee, these committees recommended that this not be disclosed.
Speaker 2: And why also who in the Schumer Amendment was gutted by the House that was led by congressmen who Ohio, Yeah, who are dependent on the defense industry for contributions.
Speaker 1: What were the what were the specific companies that were basically lobbying or you know, funding them?
Speaker 2: Well, I don't I wasn't told directly, but I can certainly guess that Boying and Lockheed Martin, OOY and Locked and a few others would be be highly.
Speaker 1: Concerned about this, right. And it's also convenient that these companies would have all this information because they can't be foid right. Private companies can't be foyd.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and that's why the information was In my opinion, a lot of the paperwork was taken to Woodstock, New York and placed in the Iron Mountain facility in spaces that are owned by E. G and G Roetrom.
Speaker 1: Do you think people in the Pentagon or deep in the government somewhere have simulated what would happen if this stuff did get out to the public, I would assume so. But I think their conclusion would be, well, their conclusion or what do you think that? I don't think their dam would be.
Speaker 2: I think that I think the that that's a really complex question. And on the on one level, their conclusion would be, we've got to protect our industry and therefore we can't allow this to get out because it's going to cause economic turmoil for all of our suppliers. That would be one level of it, another level of it. And this gets to whether or not there is an interface of some kind with these entities, and that is cultural colonization. When the Europeans moved out into the Americas and the Far East, they did so with superior technology.
Speaker 2: And this is a terribly critical point, so I'm gonna hit it hard. Moved out with superior technologies and devastated these other cultures because the other cultures saw the ships, the cannons, the guns, the armor, the wonderful knives and metal pots and things, and they wanted that too, and their own cultural significance greatly diminished. And that if you go to India you see that kind of culture. Shock is still there everywhere. It's still part of Indian, the Indian soul. It was a real bruising they took by cultural colonization and got in even worse bruising in the Americas, where ninety percent of the people in Mexico were dead within ten years of the arrival of the Spaniards.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's cultural colonization out the wazoo right now. Someone who is aware of that and wishes to leave the society intact would be very careful about exposing the society to what would in fact be I'm sure an extraordinarily dramatic amount of new processes and capabilities and materials that would seem to us almost to be magic.
Speaker 1: The Yeah, it would almost kick the legs out from under society, right.
Speaker 2: And there's possibly another reason, and it's very interesting. In April of nineteen seventy seven, DBH. Kuyper and Mark Morris to astrophysicists. One of them is an astronomer and the other an astrophysicists. The astronomer Kuiper discovered the Kuiper Belt. There were very prestigious guys published an article in the magazine's Science which was about what if aliens came here, Why would they why they would remain hidden? And you understand, these are guys who might have known they were here. They could easily have known that.
Speaker 2: And their conclusion was that the only thing they would be interested in here would be what we had and had discovered that they had, not what was new to them. And as soon as they revealed themselves, the whole culture would re form itself and refocus itself toward them, and all of the potential innovation that they might be looking for would be disappeared. Would poison the well, if you may poison the well, And I think that is a major issue with the.
Speaker 3: Visitors, it seems I mean, yeah, no, that makes that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2: Well, it gets darker though, that's not I mean, this is the good part. There's all there's all kinds of stuff as well as this. That all kinds of other reasons for the secrecy, But I think the secrecy and I think it's important to always understand this when when we are going after the Defense Department, it's the little dog biting the boot that's kicking it. It ain't the man in the in the the dog never sees the man. He's only worried about the boot. You got to look up and there you see who's really behind it, and that's not us, that's them.
Speaker 1: So you think somehow this advanced species or whatever you want to call it, is controlling and manipulating our society in a way that benefits that it benefits.
Speaker 2: Us too, I would assume. So I would assume that it must be our things would not be like they are. Well, look at the Roswell incident. There's what's going on here has two sides to it. One is controlling and manipulating the society and the and its governments in such a way that they will not reveal to the public the bits and pieces that fall into their hands. And two making sure that enough falls into their hands and into the public's hands. That we're all getting used to this, and that we are building toward something closer to parity.
Speaker 2: That we were nowhere near parity in nineteen forty seven. We're much closer now, and as we'd become more sophistic And you say, parody, what do you mean to do? I mean a logical parity with them, with them, because remember I said a few minutes ago that this is terribly important, and I brought up the story of the Europeans, especially the Spaniards. Right, the fact that they are technologically more proficient than we are does not mean that they're ethically and morally more proficient than we.
Speaker 1: Are, right, exactly.
Speaker 2: That's really important to remember because I remember, I know these people, well, a lot of them quite well. Not not on a sit down across the table. Well, what do you mean people, the visitors, I've had a lot. I'm they're in my life, and I'm I communicate with them a.
Speaker 1: Lot, and they are not. Can you do this whenever you want?
Speaker 2: No, they do it. It's when they want. I usually happens between three and four in the morning, and it involves working on my books. The best, the most extensive communication, more direct communication I've had with them in recent years, was when I was writing a book called A New World, and I wrote it that the country house, which was now then owned by my aunt, who was recently deceased and whom I loved dearly. She was she was really a wonderful woman. And she also the other was the other member of the family who had had a close encounter when she didn't talk.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she didn't talk about it much, but we discussed it pretty extensively, of course, and I don't I have to find out from her daughters whether or not she what she mentioned to them, because I would like to tell them what she told me. If they don't know and we never have talked about it, that's down the road in my life. In any case. We're at the country house. I'm downstairs and I've been going. She's just come up. I've been going. I've been there for about four days, and I've been sitting in the living room with all the lights out, and the visitors, presumably the little gray people have been coming onto the porch right beside me, just a couple feet away, and so very close like that.
Speaker 2: The telepathic communication is very clear, and we are working literally, working together on the book directly. Now, what happens my aunt comes and she is upstairs in the bedroom, and there's another porch, the sleeping porch outside her room, and this is all Florida ceiling windows. It's an old house. And suddenly I hear her say, what is that you? And I say, what do you mean? She says, well, someone just talked to me on the porch and I said, no, I'm down here, and she said well, someone, and I went upstairs and said, what's going on?
Speaker 2: And she said, well, I think it's your friends, because it had they had that shuffling walk they sort of scraping along walk on. She could hear that on the porch, and it said to me, why aren't you asleep? And I thought to myself, this is not good, because people are They will say, I say, how do you feel?
Speaker 1: He said, you all right?
Speaker 2: I said. She said, sure, I'm all right. But I guess they're here. I said, yes, I guess they are. And it was interesting she wanted to see them. She would go up to the house with me, just the two of us alone, often in hopes of seeing them, even though her relationship with them was very hard. She'd had some hard things happened to her. And so I said, well, I guess they are here. I mean I knew they were there because I'd been with them and they were downstairs that that moment. But they had apparently I was going to go up to my room, which is the far room in the back, the farthest way darkest room in the house, and they were going to probably come up to that area, and when they realized she was awake, they thought they couldn't come up.
Speaker 2: They're very shy, and I have a number of theories about that, but I don't really know why. In any case, I thought to myself, I had better be careful here because I think this is extremely stressful for my aunt. The next afternoon, she became ill and she said, I feel very nauseous and light headed. And I put my fingers on her wrist and her heart was not beating correctly, and I thought to myself, it's stress and she's having a heart attack. And so I called our a lifelong friend who is also a doctor, not the one I talked about earlier, who happens to have his country houses half ten minutes away by car, and I said to him, you need to get over here.
Speaker 2: I think she's having a heart attack. And he came rushing over diagnosed her. He's a cardiologist, diagnosed her and got an ambulance to take her into town, got a pacemaker into her, and saved her life. Because I knew she would get stressed, and she always disagreed that the stress was because of what happened the night before, but I'm sorry that is not the case. It's tremendously stressful and I can tell you precisely why and also a reason for the secrecy they had. And this gets back to my mention of time a little while ago.
Speaker 2: They haven't got the same relationship to time as we do. If you can visualize it, we are inside the stream of time, and the stream of time is always coming toward us. Everything in your life and my life is always new. We never experienced time any other way now we Time is not and I hear people all the time, even physicists talking about time as if it was a sort of force or presence like gravity.
Speaker 1: It's not.
Speaker 2: Time is.
Speaker 1: It's a side.
Speaker 2: Effect of quantum entanglement. And there's just one paper I know of that's I think being prepared now that discusses this. But it is the case in any case, that's almost neither here nor there with what I'm about to say. What I want to say here is visualize them as like fishermen on the shores of the river of time, and us as trout swimming in the river, and all experience is coming in, and we're devouring the little bits of experience that we get, and they're making us stronger. If you take us out of the stream of time, it's devastating for two reasons.
Speaker 2: One is we can't function outside of the stream of time, and the second and most important one is we see the stream of time from the outside. And if you do this, believe me you it's horribly hard because for a while after that, your life is all known to you and you are like running on rails. It's like automatic. It's horrible, and you can't get the energy of the experience that you have paid dearly to get by being locked up in a physical body. They are not locked in their bodies. They can come and go and leave and enter their bodies.
Speaker 2: That's why they have left bodies here in the first place, because they can leave the bodies behind. And they left when they left that craft at Broswell with bodies in it, they weren't in the bodies they'd left. They'd left except for one that remained. Apparently, I say apparently. I've never had any direct proof of this, but I've that's what General Exen implied that, and General Twining's son said that General Twining had spoken to this individual who had told the first lie of many when he said they asked General Axon asked if they were or I mean general, Twining got an answer to a question, and the answer was, we're not interested in human beings.
Speaker 2: Of course, that's absolutely false. So almost the first thing they was ever said to anybody was a lie, and that shouldn't surprise us, because they're going to.
Speaker 1: Be a lot more of those. Can you expand a little bit more on what you mean about looking at time from the outside, being outside the time.
Speaker 2: Stream, Yes, I can. Let me give you an excuse me, let me give you an example of how that experience works for somebody. Jeff Kreipel, who is my dear friend and my co author of Supernatural and hasment on your show and so forth, had an experience with me at the Essenon Institute. When I'm up there, there's a house called the Murphy House where there's a certain room that looks right out over the Pacific, and it's an ideal room. It makes it very easy for them to come in and when they're active in my life, in the physical life and coming, if I go and stay in that room, they will often show up there.
Speaker 2: And so Jeff wanted to stay in the room when that would hope that would happen to him, and it did. What Oh, yes, and.
Speaker 1: After reading your book, I don't know who in the right mind would want to have that experience. I was terrified reading your book.
Speaker 3: I was literally petrified in my bed at night when I was reading your book, like I'm shaking him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I knows your hands shaking. Now, it's not an experience I would wish upon my worst enemy.
Speaker 2: Well, let's put it this way. Human beings are here because we are more curious than afraid, and I am in that boat. Ultimately, after the experience, I became more curious, and I started going out in the woods in the middle of the night to indicate to the visitors that I was ready for more in sight of the fact that this was clearly the act, an insane act. But going over the next hill, which is how we conquered that we came to the whole planet, was always an.
Speaker 1: Act like that. We've been doing that.
Speaker 2: That's how we have grown and lived and fooling around with the atom. Of course we did it, and now we can completely destroy ourselves asselves at a moment's notice. Curiosity is the primary driving force. It's more powerful than fear. And I can assure you you think if you've found the chance to have a face to face with the visitors, you would say yes, Danny.
Speaker 1: No, I wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you will, I would not in the moment you would say yes, no, Okay, if.
Speaker 1: They're listening right now, the answer is no, I would not. I promise you, well.
Speaker 2: You got to watch out, because sometimes they are listening. You're not. Wouldn't be the only podcaster who's ever had an experience with them after having a conversation like this.
Speaker 1: So it has it ever happened where people that you're around end up having similar experiences.
Speaker 2: With that guests all the time. Absolutely tell me that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Anyway, let's go back to Jeff, because it's a wonderful story and he's told it publicly. It's not a secret. Okay. I try. I try and never. If I can't remember a name, that's one thing. But I try never to come in a podcast like this and say, well, I had on the authority of or with you know, I can't say his name.
Speaker 1: I don't like that. No, I don't either. I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm in the business of telling a story. I'm a storyteller, not a story hider. So anyway, Jeff stays in the room that night, and one of the visitors does show up, and very clever hits me, I'm here's the situation. The room. The end of the room is here. There's a little porch that you can step off and walk down to a cliff, and the Pacific is roaring away on that cliff right there. Okay, seventy foot drop and the I'm in the bed right beside that window. Jeff is across the room, in a bed across the room.
Speaker 1: Hey, guys in the same room together, in the same Yeah.
Speaker 2: So they show up. One of them shows up, and it's it's not a gray, it's one of these dark blue figures that actually I have more contact with physically than the grays.
Speaker 1: The shorter beafier ones yeah, yeah, and he.
Speaker 2: Wakes me up by tapping me on this shoulder, causing me to look look this way, and then I look back and I see him, and then he disappears, and it's an indication in my mind that I'm supposed to get up and do the meditation I do with them at three o'clock every morning, or.
Speaker 1: Approximately three every morning.
Speaker 2: Every morning, it's supposed to be an hour and a half before dawn, so it varies a lot. And you can't use like an alarm system because that alarm clock because they basically will wake me up at the right moment. It's a time called in certain yoga practices brahmam a hearth of time. It is an hour and thirty minutes before dawn hour and thirty nine minutes before dawn, and it is the time when the mind is most open, and that's when I work with them on my books.
Speaker 1: Interesting, so it's also the time when you're having you're in rem sleep, you.
Speaker 2: Would be, but if you're sitting in a room doing a meditation to open your mind to this outer these this material coming from the outside, you're not in rem sleep.
Speaker 3: But if you were sleeping, typically that would be the part of the night when your brain is the most active.
Speaker 1: And you say that remsleep. I don't know if they've proven it, but it is connected to the pineal gland.
Speaker 2: Well, you have to have some control over the functioning of the pineal gland in order to do this and remain sane and healthy in any case. Getting back to Jeff,
Speaker 2: the visitor disappears short time after that, Jeff is awakened, and his description of how it felt is what I was getting at he said, It felt like I heard glass crashing down breaking all around me. That was his veltshown, his worldview. It was his worldview. His whole vision of reality was collapsing, and it was like glass to him. His mind interpreted it like glass breaking. And then he heard a voice from inside himself, as he was drawn on to the edge of the time stream, cry out his own voice, but from deep inside his body.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. And if you're taken out of the.
Speaker 2: Time stream, your reason for living is over. And you have to get used to that possibility. And you have to get used to the idea that if you're taken out of the time stream, it'll only be for a while and your relationship to time will return. But until you do, you're gonna be scared to death. And that's a natural fear. It's the fear of a fish being pulled out of the water.
Speaker 1: Is it like dying? When you compare it to dying, it's worse than death.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's worse than death, because death death is when you leave you were locked into these bodies. There's a place just above the c one vertebra which we can't unlock, but they can the grays can because they haven't a way of doing it. And when they do that, you feel you literally feel like something things opening all down your spine. Your spine is opening and you can roll right out of your body. Now, in my case, I would love to be left on my own. But when I do that, but they always have a job for me, a specific thing, and I don't think that they would care for me to be allowed out on my own to cut up in that state as I might do.
Speaker 2: Because I've learned to do things. I can make myself visible in that state, which I have done a couple times, because there's there's a movement in the When you're in that state, you still have what feels like a nervous system, and you can you can address your attention to it in a certain way that can make you visible. And I think they trust me enough to let me fun with that, and I would have a lot of fun with it. It's quite true.
Speaker 1: So how is it worse than death?
Speaker 2: Because the soul is here gathering the energy of life, and this is like being in the stream of Once you're out of the stream and you see the next four days, say for those four days, your soul can't gather any energy because it already knows what's going to happen. It is the energy of the new that we are here to receive, to get. That's why we're in these bodies. That's the fundamental reason we're in these bodies. Dying is a natural part of this. It comes to an end at a certain point, right, and that's what makes us tick.
Speaker 2: A lot of people believe, right, and we are here to be born, to live, and to die. This is not dying. This is being in a living, breathing body with no reason to be in it. And it's horrible. The first time it happened to me, I just was almost went mad because I was I didn't know that it would end.
Speaker 1: It's almost like the death of the soul.
Speaker 2: It's not the death of the soul. The soul becomes. It's like being trapped. It's claustrophobic as hell. It's really claustrophobic because you're suddenly very aware of the fact that you are in this body and you can't get out. It's like being locked in a closet. It, believe me, it's hard, hard, and Jeff wasn't prepared, and people aren't prepared and that's why they don't want it. Every instinct in us says, we must not do this, we must not get out of the time stream. That's this is why we're here.
Speaker 2: We paid for this in some way. We're here. This is our precious treasure is being in this time stream and being pulled out of it. No, No, that's not supposed to happen. They are outside of it looking in. Why are they like that? This is a great question, because I am quite sure from my own experience this is experiential. It is not observational, though, and there's a difference in the quality of something like that, because I'm saying what I believe to be true, not what I have seen. Okay, what I believe to be true is that they would they can enter us, and when they're in us, they can share this constant, unending sense of the new that they don't have anymore.
Speaker 2: They lost it, or gave it up, or it was taken from them. My wife Anne, who knew she was a little gal from ann Arbor, Michigan, who grew up in a difficult situation, and there was just nothing mysterious about her. There was nothing mysterious in our life together until well, once we met, things got weird, but we didn't know why. And you know, we were a couple of kids basically interested in bed, not in weird stuff. I mean, we didn't care about that. We were interested in each other. So she knew once she knew.
Speaker 2: You know, when I went through a period after I published Communion of thinking I was going crazy and trying to drive her out of my life because I thought I'm psychotic and anything can happen if she's ends up, I end up in this state that I was in that night and can't get out of it. I'm going to be in a mental institution maybe for the rest of my life. And she's going to be saddled with me because she's not being able to divorce me. And so I was trying to get hurt to divorce me until finally consciously or consciously very consciously, and so we were fighting a lot, and I was kept telling her why don't you just leave, Why don't you you leave?
Speaker 2: Why don't you get a divorce? And it was killing me inside because I lumber so dearly and deeply, but I just thought it was you know, she had to have a life, and she wouldn't have a life with me very much longer. I was afraid of that. When I finally realized that it had happened, physically happened when the doctor said to me, you've been or he didn't say that, he said, you have a lesion in your rectum because I had been entered inrectly and by a machine that caused an erection, an expulsion of seeing.
Speaker 1: This is the by nineteen eighty six July or December December nineteen eighty five, December twenty sixth, nineteen eighty seven. Five. Right, yeah, yeah, I want you to also keep a pen there because I want you to tell that story.
Speaker 2: Okay, surely I will so, but she once you know. I finally I talked to my friend Timothy Greenfield Saunders, a photographer in New York. We've been we're dear friends. I love friends, and I love to have friends in my life, and so I keep my friends as long as I can, and Timothy and I have been friends, and she and our families have been friends for a long time, so we we were. I told Timothy before I told Anne. And the reason is that members of his wife's family had seen the visitors. They lived just ten minutes from our house and our cabine in upstate New York.
Speaker 2: And they'd seen the visitors in their back garden one morning while they were having breakfast, and so you know that.
Speaker 1: Was morning outside. That's yeahs our.
Speaker 2: Oh listen, it was because of me. They were shown because of me. I'm sure whether it was. It might have been about a year before. In any case, but the visitors, because they're outside of the stream of time, they can stitch things together differently than we can. And so I told him the story and I said, he said, well, I said, I don't know how to tell Anne. And he says, just tell her. She'll roll with it.
Speaker 1: And and I.
Speaker 2: Thought, well, I don't have any choice because I've got to tell her something and explain myself because I've been really bad to her. And so I told her, and she looks at me, and I looked back at her, and I was afraid she would say, well, now, maybe we should get a divorce, But instead she says, oh, thank god, now I don't have to get a divorce,
Speaker 2: ride or die. She was rolling with it, and she took it over. She took over everything. Anne was the one who said you should write a book about it. She was the one who gave the book the title. I was going to call it body Terror because it was so physically terrifying, and she said no. Whitly, one night, when she was half asleep, she suddenly says, Whitly, call the book communion, because that's what it's about, and that is the defining reality here can we do it? And another part of that reality comes from Colonel Philip Corso.
Speaker 2: Phil Corso who had an encounter in New Mexico where he was asked by the visitors to turn off some radars so they could safely leave a cave that they were in, and to turn them off for ten minutes. And he said, well, in my prof less in ten minutes can be a long time, which is quite an understatement. And what's in it for us? And the answer is the defining reality of this Along with the word communion, The answer was a new world. If you can take it. That means if you can rest it out of our hands, if you can bear it, if you can stand it, if you can understand it, if you can steal it, beg for it, buy it, borrow it.
Speaker 2: However, there's a new world waiting for us, and that world that circles back to communion because it is in that level of relationship that this new world is going to come. Because what will happen to us is that all kinds of abilities that we see the visitors in possession of that look like magic to us will become part of us as well. I'm right a book about this right now, and it's going to be out, hopefully by December, and it's going to lay it all out. It's called the Fourth Mind of exactly what we need to do and where we are with this because it's time and it gets back to the original statement here that this is about time, and it is about time too.
Speaker 1: Okay, going back to when this December twenty sixth of nineteen eighty five, yep, experience, this was the first experience I believe that you talk about in communion. Yes, right, well yeah, okay sort of the first. So is this experience what sort of kicked off your inspiration to come up with this book or was did you decide to write about the book? Like? How many years after that experience did you try to write the book? Oh?
Speaker 2: And brought it up the night I told her the story?
Speaker 1: Oh really? Oh yeah?
Speaker 2: She was ready right then?
Speaker 1: It was time. Okay. So first of all, before we go into that story, why do you think they chose you?
Speaker 2: I think I've probably been in this all my life. I am a good writer, I can tell a good story. I am a willing to do it. My curiosity is stronger than my fear. And there's another thing that's very important. They obviously they could have chosen excuse me, they could have chosen someone like a prominent scientist, who would they would find they could find one who would do it. I'm sure smart people, smart people. I'm smart enough to do it. I mean obviously I couldn't do it. But
Speaker 2: they chose a horror novelist. And the reason is this. It gets back to cultural colonization. You don't have to believe me. You can say no, he's making it up. It's another horror novel. He's just doing it for the cash. That you can defend yourself. If you feel uncomfortable with this and don't want to go down this road, you can turn away from it with no questions asked and nothing lost. And that's why they chose someone whose situation would be so ambiguous as mine. I write horror novels and then I come out with this bizarre and terrifying story and say no, no, no, this isn't a horror novel.
Speaker 2: This really happened to me. And so that level of ambiguity remains intact to the stay, and I would never disturb it.
Speaker 1: Do you think it had anything to do with the stuff that you recollected when you were a child being on the Air Force base?
Speaker 2: You know? I think interestingly enough yes, And I'll tell you why. There was a book written by Ken Ring called the Omega Project, and Anne and I financed this project. And what it was is he went to a numerous group of about one hundred I think close encounter witnesses or maybe less. It was a small study, and gave them each a list of questions, and this has been repeated on a larger scale in the close encounter community. Subsequently, of their asked him about their childhood, and they, most all of them remembered something traumatic in their childhood, something that cracked the cosmic egg.
Speaker 2: Their expectations were destroyed. And when I was at Randolph, my expectations of life and of what it was and if what I could expect from it were shattered completely, so much so that I still have complete amnesia about it almost. That's why I always say I can only remember this loud noise. And because you know at this point I was hypnotized twice in my life by Donald three times.
Speaker 1: In my life by Donald Clein three times.
Speaker 2: The third time did not work. Bud Hopkins tried to hypnotize me. The Bud Hopkins he wrote a book called Intruders. He was an artist who was very interested in close encounters and abductions because he'd had one a close encounter anyway himself. And excuse me, anyway, it did not work because I did not I did not want to be hypnotized by an artist. Doctor Klein was the head, and to Bud's credit, he found doctor Clin for me. Okay, he was the head of the New York State Department of Psychiatry and wonderful world's leading forensic hypnotists.
Speaker 2: And never let it be said that, you know, there's a lot of the IC puts out a lot of balloony about light detectors not working and hypnosis not working, but it does these both of these things do work in the hands of experts, not in the hands of someone who already believes everything already has a belief system about UFOs and is going to transfer that belief system to the
Speaker 2: person being hypnotized. But a doctor like that at that level no idea of any of this and purposely didn't get into it before hypnotizing me. He had at that point solved seventy two cases of hidden runs and other crimes using evidence gathered by helping people to remember things like license plate numbers. So it's real and tangible evidence. I mean, it wasn't used as evidence in court, but they would guy go out and find the car and find the evidence all in the car, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, So should you use it as evidence of court?
Speaker 2: No? No, no, no absolutely not that you can't use light detections as evidence in court either, although I have to say that what I've learned about memory suggests to me they might actually be more accurate than witnesses in any case. That's the way we have it now. So, doctor Kleine, I understand, I had no idea, but I had read a book that my brother sent me called Science in the UFOs by Jenny Randalls. He sent it to me for Christmas that Christmas, and I looked at it and then you know, stupid. Why would he send me this?
Speaker 2: We send each other joke presents a lot and Christmas and birthdays. He once tried to give me a tarantula, but my wife wouldn't let me take it. They make nice pets, but I did not think so in any case, so I figured it was a joke president and.
Speaker 1: Forgot about it.
Speaker 2: But then after this happened, and I began realizing that I had in fact been and this needle mark it needly went in my head, had gone in my head, and the mark was there. The doctor saw it and saw it, it was no question about it.
Speaker 1: And the.
Speaker 2: Damage to my rectum actually took more than twenty years to heal. It was significant.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: So now, but there's a gap here between those crimes and the and the the removal of seeing my own life from my body. Those are crimes, Those are big time crimes. But was what did it? These little funny looking creatures or was it someone who did something to my head when you make a kid, No, I'm talking about the communion experience. Something to my head. But that maybe went all the way back to nineteen fifty two. In other words, maybe I was prepped to believe this. You see what I mean from the beginning.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, you made it clear that there was a significant amount of trauma you went through when you were a kid.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I'm sorry. I sort of went off the subject and let me go back to that. That was very traumatic when I was a child, very traumatic, and ken Ring lost I got lost in the communiton experience. Excuse me. Ken Ring study showed that this was not unusual that people who had the close encounter experience had had shattering experiences in their childhoods. The cosmic egg had been cracked. Their set of assumptions about what was real was shattered, and therefore they were open to this experience, open to remembering it.
Speaker 2: And there are a whole lot of reasons why it might happen to people and might never remember. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When I asked Jeff Kreipel about like consistencies between people who had these experiences, he said, the number one consistency he believes is trauma.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's correct. It's trauma.
Speaker 1: And also when you were a child, how did you end up in Monterey, Mexico.
Speaker 2: I don't know. We were taken there by a plane.
Speaker 1: You were taken there by plane by my father, by your father. Yeah, And was this after what happened at the Air Force base. It was during the same during the same period period, probably.
Speaker 2: In August of nineteen fifty two, would be my guess, because we would have been in school in September.
Speaker 1: Okay, And what was happening in Monterey, Mexico.
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 1: You don't want to talk about it, Okay.
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it. It was awful, It was awful, I have Here's the reason I don't want to talk about it. A, but I meant I recall is awful, and B I'm not absolutely sure I'm recalling something that really happened. I know the trip happened for sure, because I remember being in the plane. I remember being in the Grand en Sera hotel in Mexico, in a Monterey I remember going up into the into the hills to a house that was owned by a man who was at the somehow connected with a company, an American company that operated mines in Mexico, operated mine mines.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that there were a lot of other children there and it was not a good situation.
Speaker 1: But here's the problem. So you know, for a fact, you were in Monterey at this house in a specific location doing so.
Speaker 2: I looked, I looked and looked for that house, and I've never been able to find it. I can't I remember what it looked like in the front. But when you go up in the hills above Monterey where those nice houses are, they all look like that. You know, you just can't pick one out. I drove all in there with Ann in my one year I think, with Anne, and I couldn't find it, so it was a little frustrating. But I also remember the name of the man who was supposedly doing this. His name was Antonio Krauss Ka r U s E. But I've never been able to find anything definite about him.
Speaker 2: Peter Lavenda did some research for me to try to find this guy and found that there was a man named that who was at had a school for German children in Colombia, and Antonio Krause, I remember, spoke very strange accent. It was a mixture of a Spanish accent and a German accent. So you know, that's all very fragmentary, But I think those are probably true memories.
Speaker 1: You don't want to talk about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I don't want to talk about it because it's very incendiary, and I'm not sure it's real.
Speaker 1: That's the problem. If it was real, what would the point of it be.
Speaker 2: The point of it would have been to, I think, to traumatize children in such a way that it literally cracked the cosmic egg. I think that's what it was all about. And whatever was being done to me at that Air Force base, if that was is also true, and I think it is was an.
Speaker 1: Attempt to.
Speaker 2: Engage with whatever I would call up once I no longer, once my worldview had been shattered.
Speaker 1: Do you think it had anything to do with these visitors? Yes, it did. It did have something to it, certainly did. Yes. So whoever was involved in this trying to making you a part of some program, they had the visitors in mind.
Speaker 2: They were trying to sell mustairs. And look look at it this way. Here's a Man German America, a German Spanish teaching German children in column be a at a time when a lot of former Nazis had moved to this Operation paper Clip. Well, he could have been on Operation paper Clip. Sure, that may be why he was.
Speaker 1: Listen.
Speaker 2: A lot of the Operation paper Clip people lived on a street right next to ours, and we were on Elizabeth Road in San Antonio, and a number of them were on Tuttle.
Speaker 1: Road as in Texas.
Speaker 2: In Texas, and uh, my father used to walk over there in those days in the evenings. And I don't know if that's correct. It could have been. There were there were other There were not paper clip scientists, but I do know that they were something to do with the government and the military, and they were kind of hush hush some of them. Other people were just normal people on that street. But that was all happening there and there was I you know, I can't I wish I could be more clear about it, but it's not clear because you talk and I was a seven year old boy, and you know, I'm not was not prepared to have memories, real true memories formed out of experiences that were so far beyond my expectations and understanding.
Speaker 2: Just anyone who says that they remember things like that clearly cannot be telling the truth. So I'm doing them my best.
Speaker 1: Did these memories stick with you or were these memories brought back with hypnosis?
Speaker 2: No, The only things that stuck with me were the memory of growing to the country and the memory of the time they went to the country and left me behind. Now, when I was with doctor Klein the second time, the first time, I was just screaming that on Unknown Country. On my website, you can actually find these tapes. They're all there, and the first tape is just sounds of me screaming away. And I think the Travel Channel did a show that has the tapes as well.
Speaker 1: And is that painful for you to listen to?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, the screaming when is agonizing, I can hardly listen. I've listened to it a couple of times since it happened, and it's hard. It was very hard to listen to. And then the Travel Channel show starts out with the screaming.
Speaker 3: Boy, that was hard to you know, to keep the audience hooked right, Well, yeah, I guess.
Speaker 2: It hooked the audience, but it certainly unhooked me. In any case, How did you know to bring up Mono?
Speaker 1: Ray Georgianni. He gave me a about a one hour debrief on our history. He's been listening to your interviews and reading your books for years.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't want to go too far down that road because that was the problem, is what I remember is. So it's so bizarre and so horrible that I suspect the memory. But they're also really incendiary.
Speaker 1: And you mean by it what's incendiary? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: Well, they're in the sense that if I saved them, people are going to really hook onto them. And I think that may be an intentional in other words, they may have been planted in me in order to deceive people and take them on.
Speaker 1: The wrong down, a wrong strategic deception or something exactly.
Speaker 2: And that's why I never refer to them, because I don't believe they're real. I think, And you know.
Speaker 1: You sent me an audio file I listened to where you were talking about it on There was an audio recording I listened to which sounded like it was from a long time ago where you were discussing Monterey.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I probably have a few times, and but I I remember more now than you know. I just remember that it was children, and it was very ugly and.
Speaker 1: The and there was government involved or intelligence involved.
Speaker 2: Well that I don't know what There were people who were involved who were obviously I had the impression they were military people that they weren't in uniform, and but I don't know who they were, you know, I was. You see, when you're talking about my childhood, talking about a little boy in a very bizarre situation who had no no way of understanding what was happening. And and that's why the memories are so like. One of the memories, I remember seeing my sister holding this hooked saw this and uh, but why, I mean, and what was it?
Speaker 2: What was it about?
Speaker 1: And surgical?
Speaker 2: It was like the kind of saw that you saw tree limbs off. Yeah, and uh, and she looked terribly, terribly upset, and uh, there were bits of red material on the saw, and you know that kind of thing. I I mean, I'll tell that much, but I'm not going to go into the whole lurid memory because I just don't know whether it's a terrified little child being confused, or if it's something entirely different, or I just don't know. And my dad and my sister are passed on, and my sister would never talk about it.
Speaker 2: I never got to ask my dad about it because I didn't remember that part of it. And I remembered going to Monterey, and I remember there was something wrong, but I didn't remember any details like that until after don Kline and what happened? Are we recording again? Yes?
Speaker 1: Okay, good?
Speaker 2: All right? After during the second hypnosis session with Don Klein,
Speaker 2: he suddenly asks me how old are you? And I heard my little Texas boy voice pipe up twelve and I was shocked. I mean, you're not like out of it when you're on hypnosis, at least I wasn't. You're aware of everything that's going on. But it's a very different state of mind like I was seeing, revisiting, the reliving these things.
Speaker 1: When I was with Klein.
Speaker 2: It was remarkable. First and second hypnosis sessions were remarkable. After that, the third session we tried, he said it's over. We'll never be able to go there again. We tried a third time. It didn't work.
Speaker 1: Why why would it have been over?
Speaker 2: It?
Speaker 1: Because I was.
Speaker 2: Responding, you know, it's suggestions and when you are expecting the answer, if you have expectations about what your answers are going to be, you will try to please the hypnotist, and therefore you will answer, You will confabulate without knowing it, and you will build a false memory in yourself. I've been very interested in the work of a quite a good memory researcher called Elizabeth Loftus, who has been quite critical of the use of hypnosis, I think more critical than she should have been, because it was used in these child abuse cases, and really people were harmed by children being essentially hypnotized and remembering things that didn't happen.
Speaker 2: And that's a major issue in my life. I do not want to be the victim of my own memory. Did you ever meet doctor John Mack?
Speaker 1: Of course I knew him well. Were you were in one of his books?
Speaker 2: Am I in one of his books?
Speaker 1: Did he write about you in any of his life?
Speaker 2: I don't know. We mostly talked about practical jokes we play together. We were we were big pranksters when of your kids, both of us. And he never hypnotized you. No, No, he didn't really hypnotize people. He used a breath technique. Oh, okay, he didn't. I don't think he did hypnosis. He may have, he, I'm not sure, but he was. He was a wonderful man and a very brave man. I'll never forget the morning and called me up and told me that he was in danger of losing both his license to practice psychiatry and his tenure.
Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, my God, what is he going to do? And you know, and and unfortunately Harvard saw the the head of the department, or whoever was in charge, saw the situation more clearly eventually, and the problem went away. But I remember that, I remember John vividly, and I remember how I felt the morning someone called me and said John Scotten killed last night London.
Speaker 1: John.
Speaker 2: I remember when he called me up and he said, there's an incredible case in Africa. I'm going to going to go over there. And I thought, my I should go with him, but I didn't have the money at the time. We were going through the broke period, which happened in the in the late nineties and early two thousands, so or I was otherwise occupied. I forget which in any case, it was ninety six, right, yeah, well I would have been the height of the broke period if it was ninety six.
Speaker 1: So I've recovered somewhat.
Speaker 2: Fortunately, But it was a long time of having not a lot of money. And so anyway, John and he came back and he called me again. He said, it is incredible. I've made videos. I'm going to send you the videos. And I got a box of these tapes. I realized it was an extraordinary story. But something that's not in the story that's terribly important. It is that the uh, that area right near the school is an area where for generations, thousands of years probably there has been a level of communication with the ancestors, between the living and the dead in other words, and this is a critically important part of the whole experience.
Speaker 2: That is, we're just now beginning to get our heads around. One day, when Anne was collecting all of the letters that are now at Rice University at the Archives of the Possible collected by Jeff Kreipel. Now, she walked out of her office and there's just thousands of letters were coming in from people who had had experiences after they saw the face on the cover of Communion. And she said, Whitley, this has something to do with what we call death, because so many people have the dead in their close encounter experiences.
Speaker 2: And that happened when we had groups of people having experiences with a visitor with the Grays up at our cabin, which we had a number of times.
Speaker 1: How so, how are the dead involved.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's an excellent question, and let's leave that for the future. To answer correctly. I could only theorize the the what happens is that, well, I'll give you an example to illustrate it. Lady Glory Burns is at the cabin and secretary at this point, and she's had a close encounter experience and would invite people like Luri Barnes and Raven Dana, who have all gone out publicly with their experiences, to the cabin and when she felt like the visitors would show up, and she was uncanny about that.
Speaker 2: Annie. Annie was into this in a very unusual way. I don't know quite. I don't know if she knew what she knew, let me put it that, but she knew a lot and she seemed to be working with them in some way. In any case, Laurie's walking down the road in front of the house in the afternoon. We'd got just before dinner, and she's taken.
Speaker 1: A walk.
Speaker 2: And suddenly her brother's standing there in the road and she says, my god, how wonderful. How did you know I was here? Come down and meet my friends. And he says, I just want did to tell you that I'm all right? And he drifts back into the woods glides and just disappears. And the reason she was so amazed is that he was dead. He had disappeared twenty years before and the FBI had given him up as dead, and she thought he was dead, and then suddenly there he was. But then when he drifted off into the woods, she realized he wasn't physically there.
Speaker 2: He only looked physically there, only looked real. And that was And as soon as Anne heard that story, when Laurie came kind of staggering in to dinner and told us this had happened, and he says to me quietly, the visitors will be here tonight. And they were there. They came in and they first went to Raven Dana. They went to a filmmaker, Drew Cummings. It was in the living room with sleeping on the vultable convertible couch with his wife. And they went into the next room where Lori Burnes was one of them and a different one in the living room.
Speaker 2: So she was absolutely right. And there's a connection. I'll give you another story that illustrates this connection in a slightly different way.
Speaker 2: This is before the Internet, in those gloriously quiet days of your and I got a call from my agency, Quitley, there is someone desperate to get a hold of you, and he's gotten a hold of the agency. And to find my literary agency in those days and find anything about a private person like me was not easy. So I figured, you know, I'll call this guy because he's trying so hard. So I phone him and he says, mister Streeber, I want to tell you a story, and I want you to tell me if I have any reason to believe this.
Speaker 2: My wife and I were sitting in the living room a few nights ago. It was we had taken the dog out for a walk, and the dog was asleep, and she's an old dog and very much a creature of habit, and suddenly she became extremely nervous and got up and wanted to go out again. So my wife took her out, and as they went out the front door, what looked like a burning plane went overhead and disappeared beyond the trees. And he was an FAA. He was in the FAA, and so she
Speaker 2: called back to him, you're going to get a call. I just saw a plane go in on fire. And that moment, their little seven year old boy comes running downstairs saying, Mommy, daddy, mommy daddy. Little blue men came into my room with Johnny, his older brother, a teenager with them, and he told me to tell you he was all right, and he wanted to know if this could be true, because his teenage son a couple of weeks before had been killed in an auto accident. These are the same people I saw with Jeff, with my aunt I've lived with for years.
Speaker 2: They're connected to the Grays in some way, and they are connected to our dead, they said. Laurie Barnes had had an experience with them where when she was a young woman with pregnant with her first child. She was asleep, lying in bed, rereading actually at about eleven o'clock at night. They were performers and her husband was out on a gig. She was obviously at home, she was pregnant, and she noticed movement in the room. She looked up and there was this terrible, frightening looking little blue man, dark blue troll like figure that I now lived.
Speaker 1: With often, the little short stocky ones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And what do their faces look like?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Illustrations that accurately.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the the community, the ones in the Communion movie are pretty close. Okay, they're pretty close. They sort of look like they have almost they're hard to look at. They're they're very pit crushed up faces. They have uniforms that have got a lot of patch a lot of pockets and straps and things on them.
Speaker 1: See if you can keep going. So that's the big tall that's the woman.
Speaker 2: The yeah, the one on the one beside the the side Christopher with the round mouth. That's what they look like.
Speaker 1: The little stocking. Oh, the one the woman looks like it's blowing. Yeah, to the very left. Yeah, that's right there, right next to Christopher walking. Yeah, that's that's Nope, Nope, to the right, Yep, right there, Nope, nope, nope, agreed, No, look at Christopher walking.
Speaker 2: That's the That's what they look like. Only their eyes are bigger and more insect like, as I recall, and they have. That's one of their expressions. And another one is their face is just really flat.
Speaker 1: By the way, how cool is it the Christopher Walking played you in a movie. That was pretty cool.
Speaker 2: I was pretty happy about that.
Speaker 1: That's pretty incredible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish you hadn't sort of overplayed me because I'm really very sedate and quiet. And he said to me, well, you know, sedate doesn't work in a movie.
Speaker 1: What was it like when you met When you met him and he was getting ready to like gear up for the movie.
Speaker 2: What was it like when I met Christopher Walking? Yeah, well it was quite interesting. He was he was he was into it. He was definitely into it. He'd read the book and he was very aware of it. He'd read my script, which he thought was no good and said, know on certain terms, and he said, you know the He said, you know, the writer never thinks about the actor and what he has to say. And I said, well, you don't like my script? He said, no, I wouldn't say. That's close. Also that picture, he says, no, I wouldn't say I I don't like it.
Speaker 2: But we're still going to make a movie. And so he did make a movie, but not a lot of my script got into it.
Speaker 1: He had lived most.
Speaker 2: Of the movie. Really, Yeah, pretty much. I think he did. At least that was my impression.
Speaker 1: Doom Mount Steve, go back to the other picture. Go to the picture of the alien that's like a like at the bottom of his face is ripped off. Yeah, right there. What's going on here? Uh, that's nothing to do with my They just they altered the move.
Speaker 2: That's that's something else. It's nothing to do with my movie.
Speaker 1: And it's horrible.
Speaker 3: And how accurate is go down, go down, go down?
Speaker 1: Right there? Up up the mean looking face? How accurate is that to what you saw? Uh?
Speaker 2: Well, I've seen something like that in the hanging in the window of my house. But it didn't have that sense of menace about it. It was it was that color and it was just hanging in the window, okay, but it wasn't menacing. Although when you're face to face with it's gonna look menacing, believe me, right.
Speaker 1: So we were kidding, we were getting ready to go jump down this rabbit hole earlier. But I think we went off on a tangent. But I want to go back to the December twenty sixth, nineteen eighty five incident. Was that the most frightening and vivid experience you ever had?
Speaker 2: I had blanked out most of the really terrible things that had happened during childhood.
Speaker 3: So at that time, yes, at that time, and you were in your forties, I was forty five, forty five, Nor was I forty? Okay, can you walk me through that?
Speaker 2: Forty I was forty.
Speaker 1: Can you to your best of your recollection. Can you walk me through at least what you experienced during the hypnosis where you got more details from this.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, by the time I went into hypnosis, I had pretty much the whole thing in my head. Only my problem was I didn't believe it could be real.
Speaker 1: Okay, and.
Speaker 2: Neither did doctor Klein, by the way, we both thought. We didn't talk about this with Bud because he was convinced it was real. We were sort of laughing up our sleeves at him, to be honest with you, because neither of us thought in for a minute this was anything to do with aliens. I had forgotten it pretty much everything about my childhood. I remembered the two experiences I talked about earlier, but his strange experiences. There's a third one I haven't mentioned, by the way, but that I also remembered always, which I will just I'll go back.
Speaker 2: We can go back to it. It's not an important experience. But in any case, I had certainly not thought about flying saucers in years. I thought about them a lot in the fifties because there was a big UFO incident called the leveland Texas UFO incident, where the father of one of my closest friends in those days, had been a part of it. He had seen the UFO and it caused cars to stop, and his cards stopped on the highway and everything. So we boys were really and we were eating this stuff up in those days.
Speaker 2: But you know, you get older, you grow up, you've become a teenager, you cease to be interested in aliens and become interested in girls. And I was intensely interested in girls. I couldn't have cared less about it, especially ugly aliens. So by the time I went to there, I was By the time I went to don Klin, I was sure something had happened. I was sure I had been injured. And I was also pretty sure that I had been attacked criminally, and that these faces and so forth had something more to do with some kind of drugs or something than they did with the real world.
Speaker 2: So I was.
Speaker 2: But when the hypnosis session occurred, the first hypnosis occurred, I hadn't consciously remembered what I remembered in the hypnosis. The conscious memory was of two friends, Jacques Santelesco and Anti Gottliebre at the cabin in October of nineteen eighty five, and we were asleep in the middle of the night, all of us. We were upstairs in our bedroom. They were downstairs in their bed in the guest room, and our son was in his room beside their room downstairs. And suddenly this huge light came over the house and just the windows were just light was pouring in every window.
Speaker 2: Uh. And it just scared the living daylights out of me because I thought the roof was on fire because the woodstove had been burning. And I jumped out of bed. Then there was this. Before I jumped out of bed, there was this big bang. My boy started screaming. I could hear Annie and Jock yelling. I went and looked out up. The light went out at that moment, so I went running downstairs to get to Andrew, who was still screaming. And I passed Jock and Annie's room and said to Annie, yeah, Annie was standing in the door.
Speaker 2: As I recall, or they we have both been there, that it's okay, just go back to bed. And I went and comforted my son. How old was he He would have been six, I guess going on seven at that time. It's been seventh. Birthday was a few weeks later, so,
Speaker 2: you know, we talked about it a little bit the next day and they wanted to go home, and so we took them home, and in the hypnosis session, I remembered seeing something standing like the dark blue figures in the corner of my bedroom. And that hypnosis session scared me worse than anything it had happened before. And it was the first time I began to think, maybe this is real because when I I didn't have any memory of this, and I had remember at that point, I had no idea what they looked like with the big eyes or anything like that, but it had been very careful to not let me get in near anything that had any pictures or anything like that.
Speaker 3: That all came about after the first hypnosis, the images of them.
Speaker 2: The images of them came about during the second hypnosse the second hypnosis, and the first hypnosis, all I got was the image of that dark blue figure standing in the corner of the room, and it was just terrifying, absolutely terrifying. Then the second hypnosis comes and at this point we're not really sure. We were laughing about Bud before the first hypnosis, we're not laughing so much now. But doctor Klein is still fairly sure that this is some kind of a crime that's been committed, which it was.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just I don't think it was committed by human beings anymore, but I did then. I'm not absolutely sure about that though to this day. Believe me, I'm never going to say that this is Ali in contact until I have proof, physical proof. And if people say it's imaginal or whatever, or interdimensional and so forth, and we can never get proof, then I'm going to state where I am now. In any case, midway through the second hypnosis, he suddenly says, Doctor Clin says, how old are you? And that's when my voice goes twelve?
Speaker 2: And I suddenly begin to remember things from my childhood. And it was quite amazing, quite amazing. And afterwards I said to doctor Clin, how did you know to ask me my age? He said, Whitley, your voice had changed. And my experience of working with people who have been abused is that they will go back to the abused, the period of abuse, and their voice will return to the cadence and tone of that it was when they were being abused, and then if I ask them questions about the abuse, I will get detailed and accurate answers.
Speaker 2: Now that's how it should be done, not how I was done to the poor people who Elizabeth loft to say from the whoscal But that's the real way to do it, and he did it right. But that was when we became rather sure that it was not human because it had happened in my childhood. And I put the memories together with the memories of those strange memories that had been in my childhood. And the third one I referred to briefly was of being in this dark blue kind of like a big old fashioned life raft, you know, with big tubular sides, floating over the neighborhood and hanging over the edge of it, and having these guys, these little guys, gasping and trying to pull me in because they didn't want me to fall off.
Speaker 2: And it's just a fragmentary memory, and it meant nothing. I thought it was probably a dream, and I never thought about it. But then after all this happened, I thought maybe it wasn't a dream. And so that's where that kind of sits in my mind. But it's one of the little memories. It's always been in my mind.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: So we had a situation then where it had apparently been in my life. My dad had already passed away. My mother didn't said she didn't remember anything about this. But my brother said two things about when he told her about communion. The first time he told me that she had told her. I said, what did she say? And she said, well, she said, oh my god, Whitley's written about the little men. Yeah. Now he says, I never said that. She just said Whitley's written about little men. So which is true? I don't remember.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Okay. So there is one moment when you explain how these things carried you out to the forest into a little depression. You found yourself being elevated above the trees. The next thing you know, you're sing on a bench with this female entity that you believed it was female, but you didn't know for sure.
Speaker 2: It felt female. Later I found out it definitely was.
Speaker 1: And this is the image of the of the being that's on the front of your book with the bag is the classical uf, the classical alien.
Speaker 2: What happened was, now this we're moving to December of nineteen eighty five from October. Now this happened. I woke up because there was movement around me, and I was when I woke up, I was already in the little room. When I initially, over the next few days or a few weeks, I should say, I remembered this figure in coming into the into the bedroom with a funny hat on and this like suit of armor, a little shield on its chest. And but initially, when I was struggling with this, I was remembering mostly what had happened inside the room under hypnosis.
Speaker 2: There was added to it the memory of sitting in the woods with these other creatures, and they were all they were like I perceived them as young people, and they were in these uniforms that were completely body complete body suits, and they had on helmets that had round eye holes and round thing at the mouth. And they did not, in other words, look like grays. They looked like grays might look if they were wearing some kind of a mask. But the most vivid thing in the whole hypnosis, in many ways, was the sensation of going up into the air, which I was like being in an elevator with no elevator.
Speaker 2: I just went right up past the trees and I ended up in the little room. And so you put all of that together and it becomes a single coherent sequence, but it was fragmentary before the hypnosis. Before the hypnosis, I remembered mainly waking up in the little room and being absolutely terrified that I couldn't move and there were these huge insects in the room, and then thinking it was a nightmare, and then not being able to wake up further from it and panicking, and then this voice, this automatic voice, came on, going what can we do to help you stop screaming?
Speaker 2: What can we do to help you stop screaming? The answer was, well, one thing would be not anything you were doing now. But you know, there's an interesting side story here that is I don't believe is in any of my books. About a year later, a friend who lived in the same area as we did, came over to the cabin after he had read Communion. About two years later, I guess it was a year and a half later. Whenever, it was about six weeks after Communion came out in nineteen eighty eight. That's when he would have come over and he said, Whitley, I have something I want to talk to you about, which was not unusual.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we were on the same private road, and we often had things to talk about. So he came in and he says, I'm embarrassed to say that I saw this happen to you, and I'm.
Speaker 1: I ran.
Speaker 2: And I said to him, you're lucky you ran, You're alive. And he told me this story. He said, he and his wife are coming home from a party at about two o'clock in the morning up in Woodstock and coming down to our place, our area, and he was passing down a road and there's a number of fields. It's very rural on that road, and he saw what he thought was the Goodyear Blimp down in front of a row of trees in that field. It was snowy field, and he was a retired state trooper, and so he felt an immediate need to stop and render aid if he could, because obviously, two o'clock in the morning, the night after Christmas, the Goodyear Blimp does not belong in that field and any way whatsoever.
Speaker 2: So he stops, he gets out of the car, climbs the fence, and starts trudging into the field with the snow, and he hears screaming inside the thing, and he starts to run toward it. Then and it turns, lights turn on all over it. It starts to make a growling noise and comes toward him behind him in the car. His wife panics and he panics. He jumps back in the car and comes home, and he says, Whitley, I think it was probably you in there, because it was the same night and everything.
Speaker 1: And now from the ground, do you say it was.
Speaker 2: Hovering above the ground. He didn't say a specific number of feet, but I mean I would say ten fifteen feet, not far far low enough to where he thought it was. The blimp was in trouble, and he said, I think it might have been you in there, and I'm so sorry that I didn't try to help you. And I said to him, you're here because you didn't try to help me. Would be I have no idea what would have happened to him, but whatever it was, it wouldn't have been good because they were doing this, and you know, when they get their mind to do something, they're going to do it.
Speaker 2: And if someone impedes their their actions, they're they're going to react to that. I mean, you know they're they're they're very passive until they're either threatened or or impeded.
Speaker 1: And how how so?
Speaker 2: I mean, like them, they're going to shoot back at you, you turn right, shoot back at you.
Speaker 1: Who has shot at them that has been shot?
Speaker 2: I think the Air Force is shot at them. In my book Them, I go into that, and I go into a discussion of a of an MRI scan that was briefly up on YouTube on Twitter, and and it shows a brain with bad demyelinization in the area of the caud eight and the pudamin and uh that part of the brain, the executive area.
Speaker 1: Of the brain, the basil ganglia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is what you would you would harm if you wanted to make a person unable to control an airplane. And this man apparently died a few days later. And the this MRI was taken of an Air Force officer who had been ordered on combat air patrol to fire missiles at one of these UFOs. It was only up on the internet for a few days or maybe even a few hours, but I did get a hold of a copy of it and still around. I'm sure I have it myself, and I discussed it extensively in them because of course it's very much like Havana syndrome.
Speaker 1: Do you ever have your brain studied by any of these people like Gary Nolan or any of those people that it's.
Speaker 2: Been studied by someone in the central intelligence agencies.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you mentioned that in the beginning, that's they found the implant.
Speaker 2: Well, no, he's he was interested in the implant. No way, I'm getting rid of the implant now. I use it every day of my life. It's my go to tool for writing, and it's my best writing tool you could ever imagine. But let's uh, the brain, My brain is the you know, Gary has made studies of the of the white matter between the caud ad and the pudamin and this white matter that controls communications in the type. That level of communication in the brain is very dense in like psychics and people who are involved in the close encounter.
Speaker 1: Explores people who experience like paranormal stuff too, right.
Speaker 2: Right, So they looked at mine and this individual in the Central Intelligence Agency, who has done a numerous he's done studies of neurology of unusual brains his whole career, reported that it was high normal in terms of the density of the white matter, but that the way the white matter appeared and the way the connections worked were absolutely unique in his experience. He had never seen it before like that. I have a copy of that report, and I thought to myself when I read that, I thought, I remember that need going into the side of my head right in the right place to reach that area.
Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, maybe they altered me so that I could do this. Do what what I do. I engage with them on many different levels and write books about this engagement, with the objective of helping in the process of advancing us to the point where we are used to this enough and knowledgeable enough to where at least critical parts of the culture will not experience cultural colonization. If they emerge. That's the purpose of my life to defeat that problem. And if they do emerge, as I say, it's going to be hard, because the difficulty of the different relationship with time is going to be a very significant difficulty.
Speaker 2: When they're fully invested in a physical body, they're not like that. In other words, they can get into the time stream, but then they have a lot of limitations apparently, and they can't They can't do much inside the time stream, not like they can from the outside.
Speaker 1: Inside. They can't do much when they're in here.
Speaker 2: When they can go. We are locked into our bodies. Yes, as I said, there's a place back here where you can be unlocked, and people like Robert Monroe had methods to unlock you. And there are a lot of lots of people who teach you how to do out of body travel. I've tried home all and failed at all of them. The only ones saying, way I can get out of my body is if the visitors.
Speaker 1: Take me out.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had a guy here who did a great job explaining that stuff, David Morehouse, who was shot in the head in the military.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then he did remote viewing as part of the Stargate and yeah, he had brought in these extensive documents and like protocols that they would follow to like leave their bodies, and they were given coordinates and time timelines basically, and they were able to like project to wherever that was in a specific place and time, like even going back to like the Titanic. They could put themselves in the middle of the Titanic sinking and like tell you what was going on anyways, Sorry, that was that's just interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, nothing good.
Speaker 2: No, the well that you know, that whole program was absolutely fascinating. I knew one. I knew a fair amount about the program after the fact I didn't and of course now I'm known how for half my life, right and some of the others. But uh, I, I have
Speaker 2: no idea whether or not that program is still going on. It has to be, right, I would think so, and I think that it almost certainly is is effective. And I know that people have talked here on this show about an incident. An incidance is well known on the inside of where a remote viewer identified an incident in the future involving an attempt by terrorists to spread bacteria or viruses or something on the east on the southeastern coast of the United States that intercepted by the Coast Guard, and apparently that happened.
Speaker 2: So if they're not doing it anymore, if the program has really been closed down, somebody needs to go to jail.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, No, that's that's definitely worth the money and investment to be able to do that kind of.
Speaker 2: Stuff, because the investment is negligible.
Speaker 1: Right exactly. Okay, going back to the October incident, when you were in this you got you imagine yourself being lifted up above the trees. No, this is December. This is December. And you're in there, and then you're sitting on a bench. You see these insect things going around, like moving around fast in the background. And then this one main being that you feel is female, is sitting there with its legs up, staring at you. Yeah, and is it communicating. It's asking you, how can I help you stop screaming?
Speaker 2: No, there was an automatic voice, a machine was saying that. Oh so this wasn't inside you. This was no, No, that was outside me. Okay, it was a voice. I was not in any way prepared to do to lepathy at that time. I was too excited and upset to even think about that. I couldn't have done it. I can do it now fairly easily. But no, not at that moment. I didn't even know it existed.
Speaker 1: And this is when they're trying to prepare you to They have this tool and they essentially with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well what they do is and it's it's it's a known thing. It's not it's not a mysterious thing from the beyond. It's a it's used to this day an animal husbandry. And in those days, they made these these devices that would stimulate the nerve that causes an erection. And for people who had a rectile dysfunction before viagra, they would insert this into this the rectum and turn this on. It would create a gentle electrical current and the result was an erection. And then the person could it could have sex.
Speaker 2: And as I say, when they're getting seemen out of a bull, they do it. Now. It's a it's a commonplace tool. It's nothing exotic.
Speaker 1: So they wanted to stream in. They wanted to stick a needle in your brain. And then what else did they do?
Speaker 2: Send me the hell home? And I woke up the next morning all upset, not knowing why.
Speaker 1: And also during the experience, you said you have no right to do this, and they said we do. We do have a right.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, What did that mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah? What do you make of that?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of possibilities. Maybe it's on some soul level, I don't know, higher level. If so, they would have been nice if they'd explain themselves at any level, But in any case, they didn't. What the other possibility is, what if we did have contact with them back in the past. What if the Eisenhower meeting actually did take place. What if there was an agreement and they did agree to let a certain number of people be be out within this way, and I think hybridized the uh there would be that would be one of the greatest secrets in the United States possessed.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think that's a possibility too.
Speaker 1: That they are cross breeding humans and their own Oh.
Speaker 2: I know they are because they did to me. And I met the child in my back in the woods behind my.
Speaker 1: House, your own child. I guess he was my child. At the time.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what he was, but I'll tell you the story. He I was out walking in the woods one afternoon in August of it was hot, and this was we would leave. We were losing the house. In the process of losing the house, and because you know, unfortunately for me, the cabin the cabin. Yeah, you a writer who's controversial, people will buy. But as soon as he becomes a laughing stock, forget it. They're not going to buy that anymore. Knocked in. This is before the Internet. They're not going to go to bookstore and put down money on a book where the clerk's going to.
Speaker 1: Snicker at them.
Speaker 2: That is. And whoever got me turned me into a laughing stock over the basically they turned it into the rectal probe. It shows up on the first episode of South Park as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and after that it spread that was the genesis of the anal probe. Your story. Yeah, no one ever talked about that before you no.
Speaker 2: Wow, no, my god. And so I've ended up in the situation for thirty years of being laughed at from being which is an interesting position to be in, believe me, especially because it's my publishers felt like that story as it spread was destroying my sales, because my sales just absolutely dried up. And I wasn't even writing about this anymore, and I was having good sales with some of my books, and then the next thing, you know, they just start to die out, and I ended up with no money and no publisher and know where to turn.
Speaker 2: We had to give up the cabin. We didn't. It was sold out of bankruptcy. You know. We were just destroyed, absolutely, and and I had to borrow money from friends to eat.
Speaker 1: At one point. It was horrible. Yeah, and.
Speaker 2: We so in any case, where were.
Speaker 1: We You were saying that you were walking through the woods and you had a reason to believe that you saw like a hybrid child of yours.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay. So I'm walking in the woods and
Speaker 2: behind my house there was a wooded area, then a cleared area going up a hill with a lot of rather rocky and then beyond that some pitch pines. And there's this boy sitting under a tree, right, you know, fifty feet from the pitch pines, smoking.
Speaker 1: Cigarettes, smoking a cigarette.
Speaker 2: A boy, A boy looked he looked like a boy from a distance anyway, And he was a boy, I found out later, but I'll get to that. So I think to myself, what in the world, what's a kid doing out here? And I figured, well, I understand he's out here, so he wants to smoke, and he's not going to be smoking at home. And it's not a It looks like a ten year old or twelve year old maybe, so that I understood. So I thought to myself, But he's too close to those pitch pines that if those things catch fire, this whole, this whole area is going to go up like a like a torch, because pitch pines are full of pitch.
Speaker 2: That's why they called pitch pines. And you light one on fire, and.
Speaker 1: Whoosh, oh wow, it just explodes.
Speaker 2: So I walk over to him and I start to say I'd like you to move, move, or words to that effect, and I realize as I'm looking down at him, he's he's like a weathered child. I know that now because he didn't have adequate hydration and he smoked all the time, all the time. And I got to know more about him over the next few weeks, you may be sure. And he makes this. He's looking straight ahead, he doesn't look at me, and he goes, and I think to myself, it was more menacing than that. I think to myself, I'm significantly far back in these woods and I didn't like that sound, and I don't like this kid at all.
Speaker 2: I'm getting out of here, and I turn around and go back to the house. I tell Anne that there's this kid out there, and she says we should call the sheriff, and I think about that, and then I think, I don't want to call the sheriff because people around here are very sensitive and if I call the sheriff on one of their children, they're not going to like it. Whether the children's doing right, child is doing right or wrong. Because I've already got a horrible.
Speaker 1: Reputation in the area.
Speaker 2: Some people who had done been clearing some poison ivy out of our trees had one of the grays walk across the road in front of him, and then they had these snakes come up around their feet and stuff. And the foreman came up to me and said, missus Treebert were leiaving those people of yours are running around out there, and we don't want anything to do with them. And they left. They wouldn't even take any money from me, and they also didn't finish the job. So that kind of story was getting around the neighborhood, and people weren't happy with that, you know, they were not pleased, and so I didn't want to have any trouble with anyone but calling a sheriff on their kid, so I let that go.
Speaker 2: The next thing we know, we're smelling cigarette smoke in the house and the night, you know, warm nights, druinses are open and I'm thinking to myself, is.
Speaker 1: That kid out there? And we begin to find places where he has been standing, and there'll be hundreds.
Speaker 2: Of cigarette butts. You know, it was twenty years later. We could have taken some of these cigarette buts and gotten them DNA tested. But that wasn't real. In those days, you couldn't do that. So I said to Ann, he's out here, and we took We took a lovely hike. We looked like to hike up to this lake up in the hills, beautiful and on the way out in the woods, three or four miles out in the woods. Were going along and we find one of these places where he's been standing, and we just went home. We realized those woods weren't ours anymore.
Speaker 2: That we knew by this time that there was something real weird going on. We liked to skinny dip at night, and our pool was very private, so no problem skinny dipping at night, and we were skinny dip frequently. One night after he started in those woods, we were skinny dipping. And remember the woods behind the house, there was a deck with a pool in it, and then thick brush, and under that brush were behind that brush were tall trees. So behind the brush there was a clear area that you couldn't see into from the deck.
Speaker 2: And suddenly there's a sound of someone running up and down in that clear area, breaking sticks and gasping. He could not speak. He could only gasp and make mouth noises. I found out later, and we realized it's him, and he's upset about the idea that we are in this pool naked, and so we went back in the house. We didn't feel comfortable anymore outside because we obviously weren't alone, and this kid was upset, and it was very weird, and we both knew by this time we were not this is no normal child, because a normal child, no one, no human being can smoke that much and live.
Speaker 2: And no normal child is in your woods all the time and never seems to be anywhere else. So we'd lived with him there, coming up to the house, and it was not pleasant. And he came into the house a few times, and he slept a few nights in one of the bedrooms, and we would find the bedroom the bed unmade like someone had slept in the morning, and the cigarette smoked everywhere. It was not pleasant. So was he's.
Speaker 1: Smoking in your house?
Speaker 2: He smoked in the bedroom, Yeah, but apparently with the door closed, because we didn't notice it while it was happening.
Speaker 1: So who is this kid?
Speaker 2: Well, and get to that. Give me some time. We got some time, don't we yeah, okay, all right. We lose the house October of that year. I guess it was ninety six or ninety seven. It was so awful I can't I can't even it's hard to remember exactly the year. And we leave for the last time. I'm thinking I will never go back again. It turns out, by the way, there's a sort of semi happy ending. The house is now owned by a couple who love my work and love me, and I get to go back a lot. Oh wow.
Speaker 1: And I get to go back, and I do. I am able to connect.
Speaker 2: With the visitors at the cabin, and I can explain why later if you want me to better than I can other places, more physically. So we.
Speaker 1: Leave.
Speaker 2: On the way down to Texas. We're going to stand at condo in Texas that was the last thing we own, if my mother lived in it. It's a little condo on a street. It has a screened in porch, and it's two bedroom, little tiny two bedroom condo, and a little garden, and then there's the street. Okay, that'll be important in a minute. Okay. I noticed this car, this old ratty car, driving behind us in thenumber of times, and the thing about it. That made me notice it was it had those lights that glowed without shining, and I thought, geez, could they be following me in a car?
Speaker 2: Because I know those lights. I've seen them before. I'd seen him as a child, and I knew they were that kind of light indicated the presence of the visitors, that the car that was no ordinary car. So we get to the house. I don't say anything about it to Anne because she's rather happy to be leaving this behind. As you may imagine, we get to the condo move in. A couple nights later, I smell cigarette smoke. The situation with the condo is there's a screened in porch that the living room looks out onto, and there's also a French door from the bedroom it ends and then there's a cul de sac, and that the cul de sac is right where the head of the bed is on the other side of that wall.
Speaker 2: Then there's a small alley, and immediately cross the alley is another condo. That's the situation. So I go out on the screened in porch and notice immediately movement. Someone goes around the corner. It's him, He's followed us, and I find cigarette butts out there. That's kind of cigarettes but brand. Yeah, I have no idea. I don't like cigarettes. I never touched him. They disgusted me. I'm curious. Well, I don't blame you. Probably meant all the way he smoked new ports. I don't know. I don't have any idea.
Speaker 2: I didn't I was not I was too fixated on the fact that he was there to think about things like that. And then the people in the condo can complain about him doing things to them. He's he's a feral child, and they call social services, and social service people come looking for him. And then I've become aware of the fact that he seems to be living in the condo immediately behind ours. Oh. I installed a motion sensitive light in the cul de sac, and one night he's there, and every time he moves, the motion sensitive light comes on, and he's gasping and going on, and so he's pretty pissed off, obviously.
Speaker 2: At the same time, though, what's happening is I've noticed that these two men, these men were not of this world. I'll tell you why. I know that. I was going down to the drug store one morning to get some stuff that's right on the street corner, and I walked into the drug store and it was very quiet. Everyone was just standing there except for one guy. And this is back in the day when smoking materials were all out. Anyone could pick him up. This guy is putting cigarette cartons of cigarettes and tobacco and stuff in a big shopping bag right in front of everybody.
Speaker 2: The clerks are just standing there. The people aren't shopping, they're just standing there. They're all standing there. And the guy turns around and walks past me and gives me this familiar kind of knowing look, like we're both on the same side, and you know, you can see what I'm doing, but none they can't. And you're not going to tell anybody, are you? And he leaves, and the whole place comes back to life. The whole place. I saw this with my own eyes, So I thought, screw I remember what I was getting.
Speaker 2: I get the hell out of there and went back to the house and told Anne, And so then we realize they're living there. They're behind they're in the condo behind us, And I call the and it's all this ruckus in the in the place because this weird kid is there.
Speaker 1: And so I.
Speaker 2: Call the management company and they say, you know, it's a condo and so not a co op. So then who's living where? And they say, well, you'll have to talk to the owner. And they gave me the owner of the condo's number in Houston, so I call him and he says, there's nobody living there. I use that when I come up to San Antonio to do business. I said, well, I'm sorry, there are three people living there, two men and a boy. And the next thing I know, the condo has a eviction notice on it from the sheriff.
Speaker 2: And the two guys are going from door to door trying to sell a man's furniture to all the rest of us who all know what's going on, And so then they get evicted. In the morning of the the boy comes blasting around the corner. I'm out in the garden with a cigarette in the center of his mouth like this, stalking off down the middle of the street. And I think to myself, he doesn't even know how to smoke. I think this, and he grabs a cigarette out of his mouth and holds it to his side as if he'd heard it like a voice, which I'm sure he had.
Speaker 2: Now I have studied this carefully this whole business of this, all this smoking, because this is unusual and it's these are human beings. And I believe there are two possibilities here. One is, if you will remember, in Native American culture and to this day, in cultures in the Amazon, tobacco was used to communicate with another level of reality, with the spirit world. There's other powerful drugs that do it better, but tobacco was what was used by the Native Americans. And I would suspect that this was wild tobacco and probably extremely as is the tobacco that's still used in the Amazon to do this extremely strong.
Speaker 2: Okay, So that would explain why he had to smoke so much, because he you know, the regular cigarettes are not going to have that level of nicotine in him. If that's the correct answer. The other possibility is, if you read about schizophrenia, you find the schizophrenic. Some schizophrenic smoke a great deal, and they smoke a great deal not because it quiets the voices in their heads, but because it makes them calmer in relation to the voices. It calms them down so the voices don't bother them as much.
Speaker 2: Now, what if you had telepathy and you were hearing the voices of the people around you, and you couldn't turn it off. That might be a motive for constantly smoking, because you would be like a schizophrenic whose voices were real. The cacophony would be appalling, I'm sure, and that that could be another reason for it. But it's real, you understand, talking about something real. And this is very hard for people to put their heads around, because you're talking to a guy who's been living with this for years.
Speaker 2: I'm living in this world and in another world at the same time.
Speaker 1: And everybody else saw this kid too, well.
Speaker 2: I don't know who else saw him, but well, my wife certainly saw. I mean she sure did, and my wife saw him. I'm guessing people in the condos saw him, or we wouldn't have gotten our door knocked on by Social Services asking if he was our kid, which is which happened.
Speaker 1: And your theory is that this could have been the hybrid I think alien child that you had.
Speaker 2: I think he was my child, and I think that an extraction may have been something to do with him.
Speaker 1: So if these beings pulled you up into their ship and extracted your seamen to impregnate an alien being and create a hybrid child. Why would they just abandon the child.
Speaker 2: Because he didn't work out There were something wrong with him, obviously, and so they just left him to me in my woods without even so much as a by your leave. I think that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 1: That's dark.
Speaker 2: Well, December of nineteen eighty five, then nineteen ninety six, ninety seven, he shows up eleven years later, and he looked like an eleven year old kid. I mean, what am I supposed to think? And he looked a little bit like me, and said, and I was horrified at the time. I got mad at her. I said, he doesn't look anything like me, and she just didn't say anything, but she was right, he did. And he looked more like one of my grandfathers, one of my Streevir grandfathers.
Speaker 1: So we got that.
Speaker 2: And if it's it's not just me, there's god knows how many people are having eggs and taken from their bodies, right, and.
Speaker 1: So the ones that don't work, they just drop him off in the woods. Good luck.
Speaker 2: Well, they dropped him off in the woods. I can't say that about others because I don't know.
Speaker 1: And what do you think they do with the ones that do work.
Speaker 2: I suspect we might find out sooner or later, but right now I don't know. I can't answer that question. I don't want to answer questions. I don't like to speculate. I've got enough weird stuff to talk about without speculating.
Speaker 1: Do you know you've heard of David Huggins?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: What do you make of him? Have you ever met him? No?
Speaker 2: Well, I don't like to talk. Well, you tell me what you make of Dave. Dave. You asked me a question about David Huggins.
Speaker 1: I watched his documentary Love and Saucers, and I found it absolutely fascinating. I don't know what to make I know Jeffrey Kreipel met him, he was in the documentary. Yeah, he seems like he truly genuinely believes what he says about his story of this woman who looks like a half alien, half woman. She has long hair. Yeah, he doesn't say that she had looked anything like the three foot being with the big head, but she did say it had big eyes, but it was far more human, like a Norse looking human woman with blonde hair.
Speaker 1: I believe, yes, And she had sex with them, and then she came back and then she showed him the children that she bore from him. He met the children, he drew these beautiful paintings of these women with Okay, the story is fantastical, and it sounds like something that you could laugh at, right, or you can just say, I got what a crazy cuckoo guy this is? Well, it seems to be very similar to a lot of the things you're saying.
Speaker 2: Well, the mind becomes it gets a need to connect the dots. In other words, there may be less to the actual story than he's telling. But I will say this, I know David believes every word of it, and I also would think that the part of the encounter is true, and at least some children are true. And the reason I think that is I turned one of those women down when they tried to have sex with me.
Speaker 1: So did you never had any like physical intercourse as.
Speaker 2: I did have?
Speaker 1: Oh? You did?
Speaker 2: I certainly did. It was it was must have been.
Speaker 1: In a eighty eight, eighty nine maybe, And how did this happen?
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll tell you the whole story. I woke up
Speaker 2: in a state of full erection, under lying on my back with a female whom we got to know quite well, I'm not. She never sat down in a living room and chatted with She's in the house a lot. I tell you more stories about her.
Speaker 1: Because this is the main female entity you do normally see.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the same look.
Speaker 1: I can't test similar enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it looked similar, only she was she was somewhat human from one thing. She had sexual organs. And the little ones that you usually see don't have sexual No, they're not, because they're they're grown. They're not born, And at least that's what I would assume, because if they don't have sexual organs, obviously they're not having sex and not having babies. But they're there, therefore they must be grown. So anyway, this is what happened. I wake up and I'm engaged in sex already with this individual.
Speaker 2: It's well along. I look up and I cannot see the face. The face is blacked out, but the body is a female body, breasts with very small but existent breasts, thin arms, and legs that were human like. It's a half human, half alien, half a gray human. Person was filled with people, including The room is filled with people, including one of them who I recognize. He's an intelligence officer. Whom I've known at that point for years, and I have at that moment the most extraordinary experience of sex I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 2: Despite the situation, it was brain bending and terribly upsetting to me because I was a married man and I'm very chaste. I'm not going to be comfortable fooling around recently someone.
Speaker 1: It was so good about it.
Speaker 2: It was just incredibly intense, and it was like a Kundalini experience. It was so intense. It was just my whole body. I contact, not with my but with my entire body. It was brain bending. I was I'll never forget it.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And I told Annie about it immediately because I had to. But the truth was I came awfully close with her a number of times because one thing about my wife is she knew what she was doing in bed. So anyway,
Speaker 2: the next morning I wake up, I'm back in my bed. I'm obviously I have had sex, and Annie has them. It's quite clear the way I look and feel and smell. And I tell her the whole story immediately, of course, because you know, there's no way, I mean, if I'm going to fool around, I sure as hell. I mean I'm going to fool around with anyone, because I really love my wife, and you know, she's the only one, the only woman exide from her that I've ever even had sex with.
Speaker 1: I'm he's in the cabin, by the way.
Speaker 2: In the cabin, yeah, in the old cabin in New York, in New York. Yeah. So I think to myself about the guy, and you know, he was an intelligence office. He's not in the CIA, is in another agency. But as I say, I've known him a long time for other reasons, nothing to do with this. And I thought, what the hell if did.
Speaker 1: I remember that or not?
Speaker 2: And I didn't know how to talk to him about it, because you know, I couldn't very well say to someone who knew essentially nothing about this, hey, were you watching me have sex with an alien in my But he guess.
Speaker 1: During he did know about the visitors, though right he may have. Why would you be involved with intelligence if it wasn't about this?
Speaker 2: You know, as a writer in the old days, were you were called upon to to They wanted you to go places where a writer could be going without suspicion during the Cold War and report back on what you saw.
Speaker 1: And they were using you as a spy.
Speaker 2: Not a spy exactly, but an agent. Oh no, and yeah, no, I guess you were recruited. I was recruited. Yeah, I was recruited when I was at school in England, and I did a few things.
Speaker 1: I mean not much.
Speaker 2: I did a few things when I was in for the sex.
Speaker 1: No further, you see I in England. This is an amazing detail till you left out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's not an amazing detail. It's just how many writers did it in those days.
Speaker 1: Many. So you woke up, you had this experience of having intercourse, amazing intercourse with this female. Guys there, and this guy's in the background watching right.
Speaker 2: Now as life unfolds. It turns out he's heavily involved in this visitor stuff. And I think to myself, should I ask him about it? So I asked him. I've asked him a few times if you ever been to my cabin? He always says no. And I didn't know what to make of that, because in fact, people can do things. Now, I think my father might have been such a person for the visitors that they don't remember. And I probably have that in my life too. I think everyone who's cone I think they control the stream of your memory when it comes to them.
Speaker 2: Okay, they don't probably care about the rest of it that they control that, Okay. So anyway, here is what then happens. Fast forward thirty years. I meet a guy from Romania who seeks me out. He turns out we have mutual friends in California. And the mutual friend says that he wants to meet me, and I say, sure, I'm very available. People want to meet me if if they don't talk too long. If they talk to me too long, I'll turn it off. But I'm open. I'm not a closed door. I'm not a celebrity. I don't think of myself that way.
Speaker 2: I'm a guy's had a lot of weird things happen, and I write about him. That's my life. And so anyway,
Speaker 2: I meet the guy. He's a very nice man and incredibly brilliant. He smokes, spokes, spokes, he speaks like five languages, and he is a graduate of MIT, and so you know, he's obviously way up there mentally. And he says, this is why I want to meet you. I had an experience when I was a boy. I was in a motel at home in Romania, and it became completely dark. I couldn't see anything, and I know it has something to do with them, the aliens, the Grays, and I think he may have added, I'm not sure he did.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think he said this. And I want to know if you can help me in any way with it. All I remember is being told something. And when I came out of it, I had underlined a name in a detective novel I was reading, and I was told that this man knew something that he had been told he was never tell to anyone. And I said, well, what's the name. It's the name of the intelligence officer who was in there that room thirty years before.
Speaker 1: WHOA And this.
Speaker 2: Man, this gentleman is totally alive, and you know he'll tell you the story himself alive today, absolutely no.
Speaker 1: Both of them are.
Speaker 2: And the officer either doesn't remember it or will not say I don't know which. But he has been heavily involved in this whole thing for years and he was there.
Speaker 1: That's kind of bizarre. That's kind of hard to process, Like, what do you mean, what do you what is your I know you don't want to speculate on things, but no, what do you make of it? What do you make Do you think he Do you think he is involved with them somehow? Do you think hybrid?
Speaker 2: Or I know he's not a hybrid. If he's a hybrid, they got work to do. No, he's a wonderful guy. I think he's a marvelous man and I like him very much. We've been friends a long time now. And the young man, the Rumanian guy, is also a wonderful man and brilliant. They both are. So you know, these are all good people. And you know, people like to hate, and you know Intelligence Officer Whitley Streeber involves Cee. I hate him forever, forget it. This is a more complex world than that. Yeah, it's a bigger world in a more complex world, and we have to do better.
Speaker 2: We have to get away from the believe it or don't believe it, hate, love, all of that and look at the whole thing in a much more objective way. Yes, I've had entanglement with the intelligence community for a lot of my life. I come from a family that did, so that's quite natural. I have never done anything that I would be ashamed of.
Speaker 1: There was another experience you explained in Communion about being in Europe. I believe you were in a hotel with a woman and you guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was.
Speaker 1: What was that? God? But you left a part out of out of communion. There was something you wrote about in a different story where you guys ended up in the Vatican.
Speaker 2: Yes, we did you want hit story?
Speaker 1: Yeah? What's this one on? This is wild?
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm traveling in Europe. I'm a young guy. I'm basically like as I said earlier, I was very interested in girls. It turned out to be very chaste, but that's another story. So I meet a girl on the train in Italy going to Italy, and we chat. We both decided to off in Florence. She's going to meet friends in Florence. She's in the arts world, and.
Speaker 1: We have.
Speaker 2: We go to share a Penzioni and we make out and stuff. We do not make love, but we make out and we have a lot of fun. Actually, I meet her friends and they're all art students and there's a lot of stuff being done at you FITZI because all of the paintings had to be taken upstairs because there had been a flood on the po and they're being brought back down and I'm involved in that. It's really a lot of fun. And so then we go on to Rome and everything's fine. We get in another PENZIONI and you know, we have no money on I mean, so we're really living very rough, but having loads of fun.
Speaker 2: And we go to the Vatican. I have no idea who this girl is. Basically, I know her name, our first name. I don't even know her last name. Yeah, actually I do. I remember her last name now and so, but I know nothing about her except that she's from Ireland and she's English Irish. In other words, she's an English person who lives in Ireland. In their few I guess from northern Ireland.
Speaker 1: And go to the.
Speaker 2: Where we go to the Vatican, and typical of me, I managed to get myself lost in the in the catacombs under the Vatican. I'm the only person.
Speaker 1: I know who could make it.
Speaker 2: And finally I get out of there and I'm walking around trying to find her. There's no cell phones or anything in those days. And she's walking stalking along in the in the in the nave of the Vatican, and.
Speaker 1: She's totally.
Speaker 2: Crazy. She looks like a vampire. She's just furious about something and won't talk, and she's glaring straight ahead, scares the hell out of me, and I think, perhaps I don't want to sleep another night with this woman, because she's beneath the surface. There's obviously a fantastically crazy person going on here, and I'm not up to this. I haven't had any weird experiences yet at all, so, I mean, except my childhood, but I don't remember much of that at that time. So I go back to the pension and I decide, I'm I'm gonna sciaddle.
Speaker 2: Her suitcase is lying there, and I think to myself, maybe I should just look in inside that suitcase. I'm curious, I wonder who I am with, and I do open the suitcases, not locked, and here is what I remember seeing. Now understand, I'm still a Catholic boy at this point. I'm not seriously Catholic. I'm, you know, occasional mass Catholic, but I'm not a non believer.
Speaker 1: Your parents raised you Catholic, Yeah right, your.
Speaker 2: Parents raise me Catholic. Open the suitcase and there on one side is a nun's habit, A nun's habit, a nun's clothing black and the white thing in a and I think, oh, no, she's a nun. She's left the nunnery, and she's crazy in the Vatican because of the fact that she's an escaped nun or a nun who is leaving. And I've been having not sex but close to it with a nun whoa this is young Whitley.
Speaker 1: Is horrified at himself.
Speaker 2: Then I noticed on the other side what appeared to my mind to be a dried owl, a crushed owl, owl owl, And I think, okay, I was right, she is completely crazy. I closed the suitcase and the next time I went up to roam the train station to Termany that Pancyoni was right near it, got on literally the next train that was moving out, and didn't get off the train until I was in Strasbourg. I just got out of there, scared the hell out of me. And I still don't know. I know that I'm not sure that what happened there, but obviously there was something way off.
Speaker 1: I thought it was something else that you found in her suitcase. I thought it was skin. No, the skin of like of a human. No, absolutely not. No.
Speaker 2: Anyone who said that to you was was blowing smoke in your face. That's I never seen absolutely not.
Speaker 1: Huh. I wonder how that would have got out.
Speaker 2: There, because people like to embellish things.
Speaker 1: Have you heard that before people say that. I haven't never heard that before.
Speaker 2: I don't know who said it either, but somebody probably did. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 1: Interesting, are you religious now? No?
Speaker 2: Not really.
Speaker 1: I just wrote a book about Jesus.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well it's not a religious book. It's called Jesus a New Vision for a reason. It's a book that is going to try to re establish the validity of the teachings of Jesus for people who are not religious people.
Speaker 1: And what made you want to do that?
Speaker 2: I think the teachings are very valuable and very important. I think there's a lot that's fad. I could also do the same thing with many of the other religions, but I've just done this with that one so far. And what I did was this first, Nobody understands what caused Christianity to come about, because the religious scholars who write about it are all coming from mostly from a religious standpoint. Yes, but there's another way of looking at it entirely, like people think that some malignant force caused the destruction of the Roman Empire.
Speaker 2: You know what caused it? The sun caused the destruction of the Roman Empire. And how did this happen? Well, from about five hundred BC to one hundred AD, there was something in the Mediterranean basin known as the Roman climate optimum. That is to say, the climate of the Mediterranean basin was ideal for the growing of crops and the seasons were very regular. The result of this is the Roman Empire comes about. Its population grows enormously. They build roads, they have sea lanes, They have a number of large cities, including mainly Rome, but others that require very substantial food services in a world where the transportation of food stuffs is very challenging.
Speaker 2: So this is where we are in one hundred a d. When, as we know from stalagmite or stalagmites that are have been measured in a cave in Scotland, the solar output increased slightly, and it does that every once in a while, it increases some and decreases some. And when that happened, the Mediterranean basin went into a protracted state of drought, and all of a sudden, all of these people couldn't get food. The result is their immune systems become stressed because they are malnourished. We then have the first Great Roman plague because these people they have no germ theory, they have compromised immune systems because they are malnourished.
Speaker 2: Because of the solar activity, the change in solar output, they are moving around the area as they did not certainly before even one AD. I mean, they're really it's really a going concern. At that point. The first plague occurs, the Aurelian plague, the plague at the time of Marcus Aurelius, which causes such disruption and depopulation that at one point he's got to sell the furniture and the contents of the imperial Palace in Rome in order to keep the country army paid. So it's a big upset. Now, this is a world in which the religion and the and the state are not just It's not just church and state.
Speaker 2: They are the same thing. If you if you are a Roman, the Roman gods are Rome. They are Rome. Jupiter and Venus and all of the different Roman gods Mars, they are Rome. They are the personification of your state, and your state and your gods are essentially the same, So everyone, of course runs to places like the temples of Asclepius the Healer to get healed. Now, in those days, you did not. When you did the sacrifice, it had to hurt. You didn't just go in and throw a couple of coins in. You went in and you took a bullock, or you took something of value to yourself, something that would be a significant sacrifice, and you gave it to the god, and in return the god was supposed to help you to heal you plague after plague came and the gods.
Speaker 1: Didn't help them.
Speaker 2: About three hundred a d. There hasn't been a plague for a while, but the relationship between the people and the gods has deteriorated to the point that the temples are now starving. No one bothers. They don't hate them yet. They're starting to, but they don't hate them yet, and they are stopping sacrifice. Constantine, who was a political genius, realizes this problem and sees that the social fabric is the tior of the empire is declining. There's crime, there's inflation, there's all kinds of problems.
Speaker 2: He also sees that his mother is a member of one little cult called the Christians, who believe that this Jewish rabbi from Jerusalem it was a special representative of God. And they have something called the de Dace, which is a rule of life that has enabled them to remain intact through all the plagues because they have this tight social unit that takes in the orphans, and that they have the paramnari who go out and help the people who are sick, even at risk of their own lives. In other words, it's a very powerful social organization and it's intact.
Speaker 2: And he brings that into the Roman Empire and announces that Christianity is the new religion of the Roman Empire. But he does it this way. He moves the birth place of Jesus, which was probably Nazareth to bethle Him and places him in a cave. The birthplace in a cave that was traditionally the cave where Venus gave birth to Adonis. In other words, he replaces the Venus and Adonis's story with the story of the Holy Family, and Jesus takes on the trappings of a Roman god, essentially a son God. He replaces Adonis as I am the Way, the Truth and the Light and becomes Christianity.
Speaker 2: Now, this is good and it's bad. It's good because it preserves the teachings of Jesus, at least some of them. It's bad because the plagues continue. And because of the plague continuing, the Christian parts of the Empire become venomously angry at the gods. Because in those days, the gods were the statues. The statue of Apollo, and the temple of Apollo was the god, and they were specially treated so that the spirit of the God could come into the statue. Was all very Now, so the people start to destroy the gods.
Speaker 2: They tear down the temples, they break the statues. That's why all those statues from there have broken noses and no arms broken off, because they were being beaten with hammers, because the people were trying to kill the gods, because they had decided this. These plagues were so bad that, for example, at one point Constantinople was so depopulated the emperor had to send the army out into the into the hitterlands to force people to repopulate the city. I mean, it was horrendous, It was unimaginable.
Speaker 2: It makes Covid look like a picnic and through all of this, gradually the entire old religion is destroyed. There are a number of libraries that are destroyed. The one that we always think about, of course, is the library at Alexandria, which which went slowly over a period of time that the killing of Hypatia was the really the that's what we should remember is the worst thing that happened there, because the the destruction of the library was not an intention burning and one go. It was a gradual decline in interest and activity and a series of fires, some of which were probably set.
Speaker 2: And so we lost a lot. We lost a lot. And the fact that the Andti Kitherra device is so sophisticated, and we'd have no idea, We have no record of it. No one wrote anything about it. We didn't even know what it was built for until recently. That's because those records were all destroyed, I'm sure, in the destruction of the of the knowledge of the of the classical world. But the knowledge of the classical world was destroyed because people thought that those gods had turned against them, and they demonized their own gods, and they were left with a god, Jesus, and they proceeded I'll tell you the Sayings Gospel of Thomas, which I finally translated myself, because so many of the translanguage.
Speaker 1: Greek. Oh wow, yeah, Oh, so you know Greek. No.
Speaker 2: No, I knew Greek, and I knew Greek when I was working on the book. I knew Greek and Latin when I was young pretty well, and I re.
Speaker 1: Generated the Greek.
Speaker 2: And learned a little Aramaic when I was working on Jesus New Vision, because I wanted to see the original language as best I could, Okay, And but I would not say I was I would love to say, oh, yes, I know classical Greek, but unfortunately I don't. I know enough of it, enough classical Greek to certainly do a translation, and then to look at at at at at dictionaries and historical dictionaries to try to understand if the words are meaningful in different ways, because they've been those translations have mostly been done by scholars with agendas.
Speaker 2: That's why I did it, and it turned out.
Speaker 1: And they're also coming from the Canons too, They're coming from these gospels. They're not coming from classical sources. No.
Speaker 2: But the Sayings Gospel of Thomas is a different story. It's probably the oldest gospel. Sayings gospels are sayings. It's just a group of sayings were much that's a much older form than the narrative story gospels. Narrative gospels are among the first real stories that they were like the early novels basically, and they're contradictions between them because these men weren't in communication with each other and they're all trying to tell the stories they had known it from their friends.
Speaker 1: The Gospel of Thomas authored.
Speaker 2: It was the earliest, so it would be it was probably around the time of Mark fifty a d. I believe, and probably before that because there are things in Mark that would have come from it. But here's the difference between the sayings Gospel of Tongues that all the canonical gospels. The canonical gospels are laying it out, telling you what to do, this is that, and then Paul comes along and adds to that rules. But the sayings Gospel is very different. At one point, Jesus takes a disciple aside and tells him a secret, and he goes back to the others, and they said, want to know the secret, and he says, if I told you the secret, you would have to stone me to death.
Speaker 2: And another point, Jesus says, don't go in to people's houses and eat what they give you, in other words, violate the dietary laws. Don't be a good jew, he says, don't pray. At one point he says, don't believe me. In other words, he's saying, be your own, be your own person, do it yourself, don't be in a religion, make your own journey, find your own way. And then Constantine comes along and says, nope, we've got an empire to preserve here. We're going to take this and make it into a rule. And that's why I wrote Jesus's new vision, so that we could understand why that was done and what was originally intended.
Speaker 2: And what was originally intended was to find your own journey and make that journey. And Jesus leaves all kinds of hints as to what to do to do that.
Speaker 1: Have you ever have you discussed this with any sort of classicists or fallawa GISTs or linguists this stuff like you think people like that would talk to Whitley Streemer. I don't think so.
Speaker 2: Why not, because I'm the Brechtel probe man, among other things, And mister Saucer Sam.
Speaker 1: What other sort of sources did you look at besides this this gospel to write this book.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm a good and efficient researcher. I looked at an enormous amount of stuff.
Speaker 1: Did you read any like, any other texts, like any sort of like plays or stories, or the medical texts or anything.
Speaker 2: Have you ever read any ancient medical texts?
Speaker 1: I've I can't read Greek, but I've read translations. Yeah, yeah, well I can't read the Greek medical Galen Marcus Aurelis's position.
Speaker 2: Galen, Yeah, Galen. Galen had some fairly unfortunate ideas that almost certainly didn't work well at all. Like what, oh read some of his I can't remember precisely, but just read some of his potions and things. You were supposed to drink this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, bodily fluids stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Oh God, I mean rabbit, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It didn't work.
Speaker 2: They didn't know what they were doing. Magic worked better than religion. And that's another thing I get into in Jesus' New vision, because magic works if people believe it, and maybe it even works when they don't know it. It's very interesting that the way it works like we called something, we call it the placebo effect. Now, they didn't know about the placebo effect. They didn't they hadn't disempowered it. In other words, so when a magician, if you had a case of hysterical blindness, or a skin disease that was basically a nervous disorder, or many different types of neurosis or psychosis, you could be cure by a magician, absolutely in those days, because if you believed the magician, you were going to get the cure.
Speaker 2: And Jesus was very, very good at at sympathetic magic. He was an extremely powerful and convincing magician, and that is preserved in the gospels very adequately.
Speaker 1: He was also, from what I understand from other classicists, is that he was very involved with drugs, and in fact no idea about that. The term christ is a is a Greek word and it means to It means to apply drugs to the eyes, so you may so you may see.
Speaker 2: Well, the magical way of applying of curing blindness in those days was to apply spittle to the eyes, not drugs, and that was in the that was in both the Egyptian and the Greek magical texts, and you can see Jesus doing that in a couple of cases. As I recall, I don't go down the road of drugs, but I do know they're very important. I'm not disputing that at all. I have long wished that we said some kind of.
Speaker 1: Drugs were ubiquitous in those times.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Graham Hancock wrote a wonderful book about drugs in the earlier in the Stone Age. The drugs have been a part of human life until until until the prohibition ended and the Bureau of Alcohol to back when firearms suddenly didn't have a job and they decided to illegalize marijuana and heroin.
Speaker 1: So they still have work to do, right well, the use of drugs also when it comes to like what they were doing in eleusis with the Ellucinian mysteries and those rights that they were doing. They were drinking ergot and other drugs that were basically I mean, all these pagan cults are around this time too, where this is where the idea of and rebirth came from, right, And
Speaker 1: you know a lot of classicists believe that this was the use of drugs and these Illucinian mysteries that were going on for two thousand years were responsible for the explosion of intellect and thought and creativity back then, probably were And you know, it wasn't until around four hundred a d. That they burned down Eleusis and that led us into the Dark Ages.
Speaker 2: They went stupid basically because the the culture's response to the stresses that they were under had not been been effective. In other words, they didn't get the cures that the gods were supposed to give them, and they abandoned their own culture as a result. That's what happened. That's why Christianity became what it was. And they tried to purify their world by destroying all of the old gods and everything connected with them, including all of the knowledge, in hopes that this would please Jesus, and Jesus would come, the Christ would come and save them, because they had no science worth mentioning and no idea of what was happening to them.
Speaker 2: To them, it was a supernatural event when a person got sick.
Speaker 1: And you know, Christianity was responsible for the suppression of a lot of science and a lot of free thinking and a lot of new ideas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's had trouble science for a long time.
Speaker 1: Because if we found out that we weren't the center of the universe and there were other planets out there, and God, if there's all these worlds out there, how come Jesus just came to our world just because we're the only ones who said we were the only imperfect aliens out there in the universe.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, there's a very interesting part of Jesus and New Vision, which is about the resurrection and about what is actually known about the Shroud of Turin.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: I recently on my website there's a significant social media section of it. Someone put up a thing saying, I don't believe that there was a resurrection because Jesus died on the cross and there was nothing that happened on the cross that was unusual in any way. He simply died. And I thought to myself, this is very clever. He died early, Well he died early. Yeah, but that's and it's possible, of course, it's possible there was a twin. And it's also possible that he wasn't really dead when he was put into the tomb.
Speaker 2: But that's not what the story of the Shroud of Turin tells. The Shroud of Turin tells a very strange story. And no matter how hard the conventional scientific community has worked to debunk that story, it's still there. The mystery still exists. Back in Gosh in the seventies, and and I were introduced to two Air Force officers, Jackson and Jumper, who wanted to test the Shout of Turin. It was a father, Peter Rinaldi, who introduced them us to this project, and we contributed a little money to it.
Speaker 2: We would have contributed more, but we didn't have more, and so we were very involved in the Shout of Turin project. And as soon as I heard that the testing was going to be done at Oxford, I knew it would be false. And I wrote, I believe Father Renaldi's saying, do not do this. They cannot afford to have their paradigm destroyed. And they will tell lies, and not even intentionally. They will do it in all good faith, but they will still be false. And indeed, if you look carefully, you will find that the parts of the shroud that were taken were too close to the burn marks from the fifteenth century fire to give accurate carbon dating.
Speaker 2: They were going to give carbon dating later than the shroud actually it was, and so that carbon dating is not correct, and they will stand by it because they did it very carefully and very correctly, but they did it to the wrong area and they may not even consciously be aware of that, but that's what happened. There has been extensive research done into the shroud since then. There's a wonderful book out called Test the Shroud about the shroud and about the work that's been done so far and what needs to be done additionally, and it's quite convincing because I think there's truth to it.
Speaker 2: Among other things, the image is burned into just the absolutely top micro just the just the top edges of the of the linen in the claw, and that could only be only happened with a very high intensity, very sudden flash, very high intensity, very sudden. There was remember an earthquake, and the temple was was the drape in the temple was torn. Probably something happened in the tomb at that moment. And this is where we get into the area that the Western mind does not want to accept yet. And it's not just this, it's a whole lot more that there is a large part of human experience and human reality that we have turned off.
Speaker 2: We have put blinders on ourselves. We've gone blind to our own souls. We don't believe we have them even but they are the only thing that matters. And I believe me, the visitors know that if you're around them very much, they're real interested in your soul, and some of them want your soul to be screwed up because then they can get it when you're dead and they can do what they want with you. And God knows what that is, but it's certainly not going to be good news.
Speaker 1: So these things, these visitors, they aren't They don't have good intentions necessarily, they have they have they have they have selfish intentions.
Speaker 2: But you have to look at them the same way we look at ourselves. And when we look at ourselves, we see a huge complicated mass of different beliefs, different intentions, different desires, different levels of intelligence. All that they're the same. They are just as complex, if not more so, and probably more so because they are older, and they do have abilities that we do not have anymore. I think we did in the past, as Jeff Kreipel talked about on this show actually, and about the ability to fly and so the levitate and so we've turned all that off.
Speaker 2: We turned it off for a very good reason, a thousand year oppressive religious dictatorship that was stifling knowledge Christianity, Christianity. When on the nature of things Lucretius's poem was rediscovered in Germany in the fourteenth century and was reprinted all over Europe. Suddenly the idea of the scientific method was rekindled in the mind of the people of the Renaissance. And this is where people like Galileo and Copernicus were coming from, and Giordano Bruno. They were trying to become scientists in a world that would definitely burn you to death if you weren't careful, which happened to Bruno.
Speaker 2: And we shook that off of ourselves, off of our backs. And now any sign of any interest in that level of human reality terrifies our intellectuals because they think, my God, if we let this out, the next thing we know, religious fundamentalists are going to be back in control, and we're all going to be burned again. Our lives will be destroyed. And if you look at Project twenty five, you can see it written right there.
Speaker 1: Project twenty five is that that thing that the.
Speaker 2: That's that thing that's sort of in the.
Speaker 1: Like extreme right wing agenda thing came out.
Speaker 2: Whether it's whatever be opted by anyone, I don't know, but it's yeah, I don't think. Yeah, And I've read. It's nine hundred pages long, and I have to admit that I read an outline of it and I paged through it, and basically it's it's a return to.
Speaker 1: The medieval world. Yes, I basically it's what it is. Yeah. I tend to think when things like that come out that they're just like intentional things to divide society and to create and maintain control and things to well, you know. Nope. I've heard some of the people come out, like Trump and some other people, right wing people that people have been questioning them about this Project twenty twenty five thing, and they're completely like ripping it to shreds, saying like, I don't know where this is coming from.
Speaker 1: This this is like an extreme right wing thing, Like we don't.
Speaker 2: Unless it's actually created by the extreme left wing in order to make the.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly right. There's so much deception going on you can't keep it.
Speaker 2: Any I'm not even I'm not in that world, and I'm not going to go into politics of Trump and Harris now. But I'm just saying that exists, Yes, and it is a return to what we were before the before the renaissance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I tend to agree. So, and I I don't think, you know, we're not I don't. I don't think real people take that kind of stuff. So we're not going to go there.
Speaker 2: No, No, they have to face the fact that we're free now and ultimately we're going to stay that way.
Speaker 1: Yes. Also there was a guy there. I had another guy on here about a year ago named Chris Bledsoe.
Speaker 2: I know Chris. You know. Yeah, he's going to be on my show Dreamland in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: Oh cool, Yeah, super sweet guy. I loved him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a lovely, lovely man.
Speaker 1: He He mentioned there was a person who I don't want to mention his name because I think that's what got his episode banned off my channel or it's unsearchable now on YouTube if you search for his our podcast we did together. There's a guy he mentioned on there who was very shadowy, who approached him and like became friends with him and his family, who is involved in many different agencies.
Speaker 2: No, I know who you mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you ever talked to this guy?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: What do you make of him?
Speaker 2: I don't want to go there except to say that he's very sincere, very sincere very sincere, and I'm not sure he knows whether or not he's telling the truth.
Speaker 1: You don't think he knows whether he's telling the truth.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of them, don't. I think a lot of them are unintentional disinformation agents.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think the visitors are heavily involved in all of those people, and they are controlling what they say. I don't think their minds are their own. You have to be very disciplined, and you have to know you have to experience telepathy consciously in order to not fall victim to it. And it's very easy for these people to be parenting something the visitors are wanting them to say, when in fact they think it's their own mind and so, And I don't think the intelligence community is at all proficient in dealing with that.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty I wouldn't say I was proficient, but I do know when it's happening to me, and I think I do. But I always tell myself, Whitley, be careful because if you if you think you know maybe that's when you don't know you know, so you have to be very careful. That's why when I talk, I try to only talk about things that are that have a definite memory. I don't like to speculate, and I because I think that opens my mind up to control. So I don't speculate, and I do not wish to be controlled, even by people who want me to say things I would like to say.
Speaker 2: I want to say it myself, and so no speculation from me, or very little, as little as I can get away with.
Speaker 1: Well, Whitley, we almost just did four hours. Are you kidding? This has been a fascinating conversation, a real brain bender, as you would say, yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I have to tell you a it's a wonderful show. B this was a very cool interview. You're brilliant.
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that very much. Thank you. I've been riveted this whole time. I don't think I said more than like ten words those whole podcast. You know, it's good when that happens. Tell people where they can find your stuff, your books, Okay, I'm your podcast, all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Okay, well listen up. Then my website is Unknowncountry dot com. I am Oh there we go. I am on Instagram at Whitley Streeber and I am on YouTube at Briduce Streeber and Dreamland. My podcast is called Dreamland. You can get it on Apple Podcasts or any of the podcast apps, and you can also watch it on YouTube. You can subscribe to Unknown Country, which would really be nice because like all of us desperately trying to get money to keep doing this, and it's four ninety five a month. That are different and there's lots of different options.
Speaker 1: Oh look, there's your channel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's my channel. And why do the Grays appear as owls? Mike Clelland is such a cool guy.
Speaker 1: I had him on here.
Speaker 2: You did, yes, Well, then you know he's a very very cool guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is. And my new book is Them.
Speaker 2: I'm working on a book now which is going to I hope blow everybody socks off, and it should be about by December. And I have a book of poetry out and it's called A Hidden Garden and it's available on Amazon. It's got like four reviews, but they're really good reviews. And if you like poetry, or even if you don't, just take a look at it. There's a good long sample on Amazon and an audiobook sample too, And I'm very interested in poetry. That's another level of my existence. And I don't expect to sell many copies of Hidden, but I loved making it beautiful.
Speaker 1: Man again, thank you. I'll link all that stuff below so people can go check it out. And we are gonna do a little Patreon Q and A. We got some people on our Patreon who asked really some questions, so we are gonna go do that, and that's it. I hope you enjoyed, and good night, folks,
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