UFO Researcher Philip Mantle drops GROUNDBREAKING New Evidence in 1973 Pascagoula Alien Abduction Case

0:27 Speaker 1: D A.

0:35 Speaker 2: I occasionally think how quickly our difference is worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this work. And yet I asked you, it's not an alien force already amongst.

0:46 Speaker 3: We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsold by the military, industrial conduct potential or the disastrous rise or misplaced power exists and will persist.

1:18 Speaker 4: Now I am become death drawer of world.

1:21 Speaker 3: In my association with Project Group, they definitely withheld information.

1:31 Speaker 4: Have a look on the essay.

1:33 Speaker 1: We're all going against the way.

1:36 Speaker 4: You shall be twayer. We're firm the destiny. You're about to give us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing the truth. So help you God. Do you believe that our government is in possession of the ages? Absolutely?

1:54 Speaker 1: All right, Welcome back to total disclosure, UFOs cover ups and conses, where the search for truth knows no limits. I'm your host, Ty Roberts, and tonight we'd go deep into a case that I think shattered everything we thought we knew about alien contact. In nineteen seventy three, two men from Mississippi, Calvin Parker and Charles Hickson, reported being taken a boortocraft by entities unlike anything ever seen before. Skeptics scoffed, authorities doubted, but the evidence never waned. It never went away.

2:34 Speaker 1: Decades later, with hypnotic regression polygraphs, multiple corroborating witnesses, and one man who was determined to seek out the truth, the Pasca Gula incident stands as one of the most credible, most investigated, and most unsettling alien abductions in history. Tonight or today, we're joined by the man who has done more than anyone other than Calvin Parker and Charles Hickson themselves to bring the full story to light. My one of my best friends in this UFO field, and I think a man who's morals are unwavering.

3:15 Speaker 1: Philip Mantle, veteran researcher, publisher, and co author of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt UH with doctor Irena Scott, which I have right here, the definitive investigation into this case. Buckle up, everyone, because of what you're abody here could redefine your perception of what is real. Welcome back, man, Welcome back. Oh my god, it's been so long, Phil.

3:48 Speaker 4: Yeah, good evening, Tyler, and let's just speak to you again.

3:52 Speaker 1: It's for anyone who doesn't know, I'd say, what for the past six seven months, you've been, you know, kind of taking a step back for medical reasons. So I just I want to say thank you for doing this and thank you for everything you've done for the community. And it's it's really good to see you up and about my friend.

4:17 Speaker 4: Yeah, my pleasure. It's great to be here.

4:20 Speaker 5: Yeah.

4:20 Speaker 4: I can assure you.

4:23 Speaker 1: Better than laying on the couch just watching the world go by, and.

4:28 Speaker 4: That lying in the hospital bed.

4:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would go so stir crazy, like within the first couple of minutes, I would be like, no, this I can't. I'd start doing live shows from the hospital. I give you better.

4:40 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it wasn't a pleasant I've been in hospital before, but what's December. I was in hospital for ten days and I wasn't well at all. But one good thing apart from me getting out hospital, came about. I'll just tell you the little story so then we else's you know, hospitalized. It can be positives from it. Where I live in the County of West Yorkshire in England. I live in a little town called Pontifact. It has a famous house that's supposedly haunted. There's been lots of documentaries about it.

5:18 Speaker 4: People keep going there and things like that. Now that the house originally is what we call a council house. It was owned by the town and you, you know, you rented it out and lived there. Just so happens. In the same hospital ward as me, was a guy called Bill. It was one hundred years of age and he was the first ever resident of that particular haunted house. Now, so, yeah, it was built and him and his wife moved in. And Bill had spent a long time in the military. It was at d Day for example. Once his military time was already became a fireman, so he worked long hours, you know.

6:07 Speaker 4: And he said, most of the time I would be away from home because I'm working night shift or whatever. And he said the house was brand new, nobody had lived there. So he put wallpaper on the walls, and the next morning when he got up, all the way wallpaper is on the floor, and he says, I know how to wallpaper. I've done it a thousand times. And then his wife kept complaining to him that he was moving things in the house, and he said, I couldn't possibly have moved it because I was at work, you know, I was a fireman out in the fire department.

6:46 Speaker 4: They only staying in the house for eight weeks and he came home one one weekend and his wife says, don't worry about it. I've sorted it. We're moving. She planned the move while he was at work. So he was the first ever resident of this haunted house. And it was one hundred years of age Bill, you know, And I just found that out by you know, there's only eight of us on this little ward. We're all chatting about things, you know, got no TV or anything like that. And Bill told us the story about that, so that was the same.

7:22 Speaker 4: Yeah. He also told wartime adventures and d Day and playing football and being in the fire department and you know, and I just so happened that, you know, this came up in conversation and he told me the story.

7:40 Speaker 1: Do you And you're pretty I mean, you're kind of like me where you're very You're not like you don't believe everything that everyone says just because they say it. So what's your what was your sense about it? Like, did you believe that?

7:56 Speaker 3: Well?

7:56 Speaker 4: I asked, I asked him. I said, you know, I know what I know the house. I know where it is because this is only a small town, Tyler, right, And I said, did these things really happen? Bill? He said yeah, And he said my wife couldn't get out of there quick enough. We only stayed in the house for eight weeks. And he said she organized the move without me knowing. I came home from work and she said, we're going. And that was it, you know, you know, because you know, there was only eight of us in this ward with no TV.

8:33 Speaker 4: So you're lying there all day, board stiff. So on an evening when when it cat were quiet and down a bit, we would start and have a chat and talk about you know, football and rugby that they used to play. Bill was one hundred years of age, you know, and it was one hundred and one in January. I hope he got there because I thankfully I was out of there before his birthday came up. You know. It was a fascinating man in himself, Tyler. But what what I'm doing emphasizes this. She's kind of what the pastor Gooler case has been all about.

9:10 Speaker 4: We've been asking the questions, you know, and putting me putting, putting the information out there and getting feedback sometimes completely out of the blue, a lot of times with help from our colleagues and witnesses and so and this was like that. But in you know, in a little hospital water it was just chatting to the fella on an evening, you know, to pass the time. So it shows my mum, God rest her shows us to have a saying tyler. She said, you'll never get lost so long as you have a tongue in your head.

9:45 Speaker 4: In other words, you can always ask your way home. So you always as always be nice, always talk to people, and when it comes to this subject and individual cases, do exactly the same. Just ask the questions and see what happens.

10:01 Speaker 1: Right And and you know, pretty if you ask the right questions, you know it's it's not it's if you're asking the right questions, you'll be able to see through the bullshitters. I mean, there are people that are just like super talented liars. I mean, we we know, I won't name names, but we definitely know some people that know how to talk the talk, uh and get you to believe what they're saying. And but most people, if you're asking the right questions, they're gonna slip up they're gonna the details aren't going to be right, they're gonna change.

10:40 Speaker 1: And you've always been really good about I want to start off before we get into pasta goula. Uh, there's such the anniversary just came up for it, which is why I even bring it up. But the the alien autopsy hoax just had the anniversary. You were like a pit bull chasing chasing a mailman with this thing, and you got to the bottom of it. Can you for anyone who doesn't know, can you explain what the alien autopsy was? What you did?

11:16 Speaker 4: Ustry is actually this August August twenty seventh as well. Yeah, in nineteen ninety five. It was shown around the world on August twenty seventh. What happened was Silo Back in nineteen ninety three, Iborn, Yeah, among other things. I was press officer for the British UFO Research Association and there was no email in those days. It was still paper. And I got a letter one day from a company in London called the Marlin Group, just asking if we could help make a documentary. And I wrote back, sent them some information and they come back to me and what they were looking for was to license film video you know, photographs.

12:10 Speaker 4: We didn't have material that we could license, but I knew companies that did. I put them in touch and the guy who run the company was a gentleman called Race Antilly, and we started talking about, you know, in general, about his documentary, and then out of the blue he said, oh, I've actually got film footage of the aliens being dissected at Roswell. He didn't call it Roswell to begin with tality, called it rose Well. And I said, well that's great, you know, show me, simple thing. If anybody, if anybody makes that kind of you know, if anybody claims they've got something or have seen something, was that fine?

12:58 Speaker 4: Show me And he said, yes, I can't. No, I can't, Yes, I can no. Camp The same year was the release of the movie Firing the Sky Tells the Travis Walton Story. Now. I was hired by the PR Company to help promote the movie, and one of the things I did I hosted Travis Walton and Mike Rodgers in a presentation they gave in London one evening, and then we had a press conference afterwards, and I invited to raise Santillion because his officers were in London and they weren't actually far from where we were having this event, and I met him and then he told me about, oh, you know, I was in America looking for old film footage of Elvis and Pat Boone and that kind of stuff, and I bought some off an old boy, and he came back to me and said he'd been in the military and he had some film of Roswell.

13:54 Speaker 4: Was I interested? And he claimed he and he bought it so again, and I said, fine, you know, show me right. So this went on and we weren't getting anywhere, and well, yeah, if anybody makes a claim, I've got pictures, I've got documentabile the simple thing, then show me. Anyway, we move forward to nineteen ninety five and the movie Roswell was being released here by Sony on video that was made by Paul David and they'd actually sent us a copy for review. So and it prompted me to think about this guy Santilli again.

14:40 Speaker 4: So I had his phone number. I phoned him mob and I said, have you still got that that film? You claim to have the Roswell film? He says yes, but you don't believe me, Philip, so I said, show me. So he said okay, make an appointment with my secretary on down. I lived two hundred miles north of London. Nothing for an American isn't two hundred miles. I know that, but here it's a long way. So my wife and I drove down to meet Race antille Is at his office and he popped a video in the machine and there was a piece of grainy film with a creature on a slab and two men in white coats.

15:23 Speaker 4: He called it the tent footage. He said these were where the aliens were put into a field tent before being shipped away. So I thought break Not only that, Tyler. He gave me a copy. He gave me a copy. I had a copy on VHS. I took it home with me and then we made an appointment. He says, I've got some more being processed. So in the coming weeks, my wife and I gave drove down to London. Eventually we saw two other autopsies. He just showed her a still of one of them. There is another autopsy film where the creature isn't damaged, you know, its legs are intact.

16:03 Speaker 4: It's a bit brighter. And then he showed us some wreckage. So I said to Ray Santilly, what do you intend to do with this film? And he said, I'm going to make my own documentary and We're going to release it on video, right, and you'll buy it from me or you buy it in your local video store. You know. Now, I was just thinking on my feet. I thought, this film needs to get out into the open. That way we'll find out more about it. I was also puing for as conference organizer, so that year, in nineteen ninety five, I already had a conference all set up for August in the city of Sheffield in South Yorkshire.

16:46 Speaker 4: So I just said to the Ray Santilli, will you show the film at our conference? And he said yeah. There was no contract, there was no money involved with Shook Hands, just a jaman. Yeah. Yeah. And just by Luke the story got out. I let slip to a journalist about the film and it just went bananas. Titler. I mean, this was you won't remember because you said it's the year you were born.

17:16 Speaker 5: Yeah.

17:18 Speaker 4: The X Files was at its height, Yeah, absolutely, Roswell. The anniversary was coming up in a couple of years, so there was also rumblings about that, and you know, I literally got factors and phone calls from TV companies around the world, and I just put them in touch with Sam Tilley. He had a private screening on May the fifth, nineteen ninety five, at a venue in London, and that's when a lot of the journalists made arrangements with him, including Bob Kiveer in the States. And it was Bob who did the Fox documentary Alien Autopsy fact or Fiction, which was so successful they had to do three specials to follow it up.

18:02 Speaker 1: Right, because the demand was so and people forget people. I just I don't mean to cut you off, Phil, but for anyone who doesn't remember or it doesn't isn't realizing this is before the internet's the Internet. This is before the world was connected the way it was connected connected today. So for the demand to be so high on this, I mean, your your the networks were just raking it in at this point.

18:33 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I mean Ray came to our conference, showed the film. I mean, we could have sold the tickets for it, you know, ten times over. I'll give you an example. I think it was the day before I had a phone call from a lady wanting a ticket, and I said, and she was in Washington, DC, and she said, I'm coming anyway, and I said, what's your name? So she gave me. You know, I took her name. My wife was on the door taking the tickets, and I said, if this lady turns up, please find a re seat because I admire her courage.

19:11 Speaker 4: You know, coming all that way right right, you don't guarantee even getting through. And Tyler, she turned up and we had a couple of seats at the back where some of our stewards were set, and I just asked one of them to stand up and sat down. And we had film crews from around the world, even even Chinese TV company turned up. And the following day the film was actually broadcasting around the world, so we were the first to see it in public, but it went on and all the places around the world. And I'm sat there thinking, great, my planners worked.

19:51 Speaker 4: We've got it out. We couldn't have been couldn't have got more coverage for it. And I'm thinking the answers will will start to come in, you know, but nothing, absolutely nothing, nothing came in. I'm thinking somebody's going to come forward and say that's me. I'm an actor, or maybe that's my grandfather told me about this film.

20:17 Speaker 1: Or right right, someone in the production or behind it is going to say, wait, guys, you're taking.

20:25 Speaker 4: Yeah, but nothing, absolutely nothing. So I had to make a decision what to do. You know, all the people saying it's a hoax, that's an easy thing to do. What happened was there was one guy. He accused me of being raised until his accomplice, so he actually accuse me of helping fake it and rake the money in accordingly, and the way he came to that conclusion at the time, my wife and I had a growing family and we were building an extension on.

20:58 Speaker 1: Our house, and he said, you're using the money.

21:01 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, where does he get the money from? He doesn't have it. Well, I don't know how he knew that in the first place, but it was right. I didn't have it, but my wife did. She'd had her own property before we met, and she'd solved that and we used some of that to build the extension.

21:18 Speaker 1: Which is none of his fuck business in the first place.

21:22 Speaker 4: But he accused me of being an accomplice, so it became personal. So I was determined to get to the bottom of it, no matter what I told Santillie this and he just said, okay, Philip. You know, he didn't bat an eyelid. And so, like I said, I had to make a decision. So what I did, rightly or wrongly in public or in private with Ray Antilley, I supported him. And you know, in the meantime, I'm still digging around in the background to try and find out what happened. And it took a long time, Tyler, we don't have time to go through all that.

22:01 Speaker 4: Bit by bit. I'd find a little bit of information that would lead to something else. Then we'd maybe reach a dead end and then we'd look elsewhere. What I used to say to myself was that every now and again I would shape the alien autopsy treat you see if anything fell out of it, you know. And it took, you know, a lot of years, but eventually we found the man who faked it is a gentleman called Spiros Malaris. Spiros is a filmmaker. It's a magician. He's an entrepreneur. He had his own studio at one point.

22:39 Speaker 4: The man who made the dummies was a sculptor. We've been looking for a special effects expert, and it was a British sculpture called John Humphreys.

22:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're looking at the wrong place because you're you look, you're looking visual effects and like CGI and that thing.

22:56 Speaker 4: But it was practical, yeah, I mean the special effects industry in Britain. He's not large and I started off phone in special effects guys and they say it's not me. Maybe ask so and so. So I go and speak to the next guy. He had no idea and we just never got anywhere. John Humphreys has worked in the film business, film and television, but by profession he is a sculptor, not a special effects artist. So IT'SOK, a long time, but we got there, and you know, Race Antilly changed his story, which is nothing new, you know.

23:32 Speaker 4: And like I said in all yeah, it's the anniversary, so I dare say Ray might have something up his sleeve. I don't. I don't know. I haven't heard from him in a while. But the point is style A lot of people say, yes, hoax, that's easy. That's an easy thing to do, you know, But to prove things out of hopes, as I found with the earlier autopsy film, was a lot more difficult.

24:03 Speaker 1: And that's I think. I think That's what I've always respected about you, Phil is uh, you're not so. One of the things that I think the community has a really big issue with, and and it's it's being humble and admitting when you were wrong and being saying I made a mistake. But we're all fallible in that way. We're all uh perceptib we're all susceptible to you know, kind of like I want to believe you fall into that in some way, some part of your brain, I mean, I think must have filled when you first saw the film.

24:45 Speaker 1: Something in your brain was like, this is either a really really good fake or it might be actually the real thing.

24:53 Speaker 4: Well, you know, the first piece of film I saw hasn't really been on television. It's called the ten Footage, and it's very dark.

25:01 Speaker 1: That's the one from the Darker One.

25:03 Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's very bad.

25:05 Speaker 1: That's real, but not well.

25:07 Speaker 4: It's not I know who made it. I've interviewed who made.

25:10 Speaker 1: It, but these guys right, well no, no.

25:14 Speaker 4: But so you've got a creature on a slab. It's covered up. You can see the head and the hands and the feet. The other side of it are a couple of people in white coats, and they seem to be handling some fleshy like material. There's a lamp hanging up, and somebody walks in front of the camera every now and again with the back towards them, and it's very poor filmed, Tyler, but that's what I expected to see. I was quite happy with that, and I at first thought, that's it, you know, right, because it's supposedly been left in somebody's basement for nearly fifty years.

25:53 Speaker 1: You know, right right then Race until he went on.

25:57 Speaker 4: To say, no, I've got more film, and then we saw the you know, the the more graphic autopsy and then the wreckage. Later on he even produced an interview with the alleged cameraman and that was not surprisingly a fake as well. So we got to the bottom of all these different films, you know. And yeah, so I just thought, well, one of the ideas I had at the beginning when you when you sat in Race until his office, which I had on many occasions. He never made anything himself, Tyler. He was a guy who would buy stuff, would license it.

26:34 Speaker 4: His main income was from.

26:36 Speaker 1: Music, so he was more like a producer more like that.

26:41 Speaker 4: Yeah, but he was a buyer and a seller and licens stuff. For example, I mean his office one day and he's got a shoe box and it's full of photographs of the Beatles that he bought an auction and they'd never been seen before anywhere, so you know, you know, he owned them, so he could license them or sell them or whatever. So I I of I wondered at the beginning maybe somebody had pulled a fast one on him. You know, he bought this stuff and then it turned out not to be real, but it didn't really care any way.

27:18 Speaker 4: That well, I'll go with it, and the film took off. Titler like nobody expected. He had a life of its own, and.

27:26 Speaker 1: That's going to be. That's kind of you know, as a as a as someone who's in media, as someone who's in that business, the business of getting being seen right. That's the biggest thing in media is either being seen or heard right. So when you start getting all this attention, I mean, that's it's like having something going viral. Now, it's the endorphin rush. It it's it's it's easy to maybe sacrifice some of your moral code or morality and you do things that you maybe normally wouldn't. You cross lines you normally wouldn't so you can keep the party going.

28:10 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I just wanted to get to the bottom of it. Whichever way it was.

28:16 Speaker 1: Clearly invested interest in it, well, he.

28:19 Speaker 4: Told, he told, he made no no, no bones about it. Tyler. He said, I want to commercialize the film. It's my film, I own it. I'll do with it as I see fake because I introduced, for example, Race Antilly just Stanton Freeman, and they actually met in London, and Stanton then faxed Ray a number of demands, not requests, a list of demands, and Santilli said, oh is this man? You know that's my film and I'll do with it as I please. So I learned straight away, you know Santilli's character. And had I gone down a similar roupe to Stanton, that would have been the end of it.

29:05 Speaker 4: Talry, he would have just not answered my phone calls anymore. And then of course the internet started, not like it is today. There was no Google or anything like that. But it became the first ever uf UFO battle online with the old green lettering and things like that, and you know, it took off santily. It later on made a movie just called Alien Autopsy and the only thing that is really accurate in that movie is how the film takes off and had a life of its own. And it really did. And you know, Sam Tilly just went with it.

29:49 Speaker 4: He had no idea what's gonna happen. I mean, none of us did. And here we are, thirty years later, still talking about the right.

29:57 Speaker 1: Right, right right, We just spent the first twenty minutes talking about it. So I mean it's clearly kind of taken on, you know, a life of its own, because you know, they're And the reason I think that we do need to bring it up in cases like right now, like me and you talking, is because I mean that footage is still circulating and people are for the first time and then they're not. They don't do their due diligence and check sources. No, they just go, oh wow it that looks cool, that looks real, but they don't know the whole backstory.

30:35 Speaker 1: So that's really col and.

30:36 Speaker 4: It's it's embedded in popular culture now as well. I mean, not that long ago, you could buy an alien autopsy cake in America for how for Halloween it was on the Symptoms, it was on Seinfeld and various other bits and beasts.

30:52 Speaker 1: It was like the original you know the mummies that are going around, the Naska mummies, it's like the original version of that.

31:02 Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's when it's when you saw the so called Roswell slides on veiled in Mexico. When you look at the backstory of how that came about, it's exactly the same as the Alien Autopsy film. It's like the views that as a blueprint for another Roswell fake, which it was, of course. So if there's anybody out there listening now and thinks that the Alien Autopsy film means really in any way, shape or form, let me ensure you it is not. I wish it was. I would have loved it to being authentic, but it's not.

31:34 Speaker 1: And that's there you go, yeah, and there you go. And so we're going to switch over to what, you know, what I think the Crown Jewel something something that's totally opposite in the sense of how it how it turns out right, Because the longer you dive into Pascagoula, the more sure and more I mean, the more of a beyond a reasonable doubt something to quote your title here, the more assured I've become that something crazy something happened that night, and there's it's beyond a reasonable doubt what happened might might not be exactly the same, right, we might have some details off, but something extraordinary happened in nineteen seventy three.

32:27 Speaker 1: So, in your own own words, Phil, what makes the past Google incident so unique compared to the thousands of other abduction claims throughout the years and throughout that time even specifically, Yeah.

32:45 Speaker 4: We're going back to, of course, what's over the eleventh, nineteen seventy three, and there was very few abduction cases in the public domain at that point, and like then as now, most cases are of a single individual, So it's surely one person on known here we have two and o Betty and Barney Hill, you know. Then there's the location where the location were where they were fishing on the Pascagoula River that night. Is not an out of waste spot. Right opposite them as shipbuilding on the river to the left and to the right there are bridges going across the river, one for traffic I think the other was for rail.

33:27 Speaker 4: Behind them is commercial and residential properties. So it wasn't an out of the way location, no, not. Then we add to that tyler within you know, no no time at all of the incident happening. They're in the Sheriff's department being an interviewed on tape. You know, they were, They were recorded, and we have one of those recordings, we have Charlie Hickson at Jackson County Sheriff's Department. Then both were placed in a room by themselves, and the deputy said, I'm just going to get some coffee.

34:06 Speaker 4: And what they didn't know is they were being secretly recorded. And the deputy came back, retrieved the recording out of the desk in the room next to them, and him and the sheriff played it back and thinking, right, we'll catch them now. They're these two old boys were laughing and joking at us, but of course they weren't. They were crawling up the walls, especially Calvin. Calvin was only eighteen, almost nineteen at the time, as Calvin on the right, and Charlie Hickson was aged forty two, a veteran of the Korean War.

34:38 Speaker 4: So combating career did did Charlie, and they were both petrified. The next day they're at the Singing River Hospital being checked out, and from there they go to Keesler Air Force Base where they are checked for radiation, which was zero. But then the powers that be were I said, well, why you're here, guys, why don't you tell us what happened? And they didn't have a tape recorder, but what they had was a stenographer. So we have a complete transcript of the interview there as well. And so all that just at that point in nineteen seventy three makes this case unique.

35:18 Speaker 4: But it was what we uncovered, you know, many many years later, that has solidified that uniqueness and has expanded the case. It's not just Charlie and Calvin anymore. It's other individuals in and around the area. And we've uncovered documentation, photographs, recording, other audio recordings by the powers that be. Dr Heinek and doctor James Harder were on site within two days interviewing Charlie and Calvin and putting them both trying to put them both on the hypnosis. We actually have Calvin hypnosis eleven minutes long.

35:57 Speaker 4: It's very poor quality, but we have it and with faxed the David Mahler that the National UFO Records Century in Albuquerque. He was he give me covered the APROL files a couple of years back, and of course Dr Harder was part of April and in there there are recordings from that time, but I don't think anybody has ever heard them, and that their recording is with Heinek, with Harder, with the sheriff, Sheriff Fred Diamond and and we have all of those much much more sins.

36:35 Speaker 1: I was just at contact in the desert and I had the amazing opportunity and I'm going to have a mire and studio pretty soon too. Paul Heinik, you know, and I got the chance to talk to him. I'm not going to give it away, give too much out because there's something that I'm working on with it. But in when I got to talk to Paul about it, I asked him why or how, you know, how did Project Blue Book pick choose and select the cases that they would investigate. And I mean he went into the to the whole story.

37:18 Speaker 1: But like you said, within a day or two, his father ends up on the scene and his father, this is probably one of the cases that he says, his starts to turn his father's belief from skeptic to holy shit, there's something really going on here, because you know, in the media like, uh, South park really did a disservice to the UFO subject when they aired their first episode and had the anal probe stuff in there. You know that was got taken from Whitley Streeber and then you know Calvin and Calvin and Charles get taken and that is that becomes whether people, whether it's true or not, the stereotypical abduction case becomes, uh, farmers or ranchers in the middle of nowhere fishing.

38:16 Speaker 1: They get taken by a flying saucer, probed anally and then brought back and you know their life is never the same and you know, so this stereotypical abduction scenario is kind of merged from Whitley Strieber and the Calvin Parker Charles Hickson case and pop pop culture or you know, the deep state, if that's who's really running things. They make it out to be like nothing's I mean, this is all just like you know, crazy people and mentally ill. But al Jaalen Heydeck did didn't didn't think so.

38:55 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean Calvin stayed friends with with doctor Heineg and he later became friends with Paul because Calvin would ring doctor Heinek at home and it was usually Paul as a young boy that would answer the phone. And they used to have a blackboard next to the phone, and he would write messages on the blackboard. And you know, so Calvin and Paul had it became friends in their own right, many many years later, and Paul has gone on the record saying that his father thought this was a very solid case.

39:31 Speaker 4: And it would have been it would have been even further impressed had he known about what we've uncovered in this last couple of years.

39:38 Speaker 1: Oh no, God, I mean, oh my, if only we could bring him back to show him what's been what's been uncovered recently. And I mean, you've been coming up with so so people know that the Charles Hickson in Calvin Parker story. But is it Maria Blair, Yeah, I.

39:59 Speaker 4: Mean what happened was I got the rights to reprint, republished Charlie Hickson's book Ufo Contact of Pasca Goula. It came out in nineteen eighty three. Yeah, and you could you could buy a copy online, but it cost you a fortune because it didn't sell that many. And I got the rights to it, and I you Charlie had passed away in twenty eleven, and so I thought, I don't know about Calvin. I couldn't find any obituary for him, so I assumed he was alive. I managed to find him and I spoke to him on the phone.

40:38 Speaker 4: He was very nice, but clearly wasn't going to tell me abowful lot. And unbeknownst to me, behind the scenes, just a few weeks before I phoned him, Calvin had been to a funeral a friend of his had died, and as the coming out of the funeral home, he signed the book of condolence and those coming behind him recognized his name and they're doing the sort of pointing and wink wink, you know. And Calvin thought that was, you know, very disrespectful. But his wife, Wenat, who who was engaged to him at the time when this happened, she said, why you write a damn book and you tell everybody your story.

41:18 Speaker 4: He still hasn't told his story in full. So he mentioned this to me and I said, well, I'll publish your book and he said, well, you know, he says, every time I give an interview, the journalist changes it. Well, I'll I'll adopt, I'll adapt my contract and whereby I cannot publish anything until you say it's okay, you give me the green light. And that's what we did.

41:47 Speaker 1: We wanted so he wanted spelling, his spelling errors in there, medical errors and there. He wanted it exactly the way he wrote it. That's a journal.

42:00 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it came out and it was pretty successful. What happened was a local journalist by the name of Karen Nelson came up to interview Calvin, and she, as well as just writing an article about him, she did like a little mini documentary, you know, about eight minutes long. Mate. So when you viewed her article online, this little video was embedded in it. Somebody took that tyler and put it on YouTube. So I'm reading the comments underneath it, and there's one comment and it says, my mom and dad were on the opposite side of the river that night, they too saw the UFO.

42:47 Speaker 4: So I thought, oh, hang on minute. I found this young lady elsewhere on social media, and I explained who I was and what we were doing, and she said, I said, could we speak to your mom and dad? She said, I asked them, and she came back and said yes. And that was Maria and Jerry Blair. I spoke to them first, and Maria told me that Jerry at the time worked off shore. They used to the company who worked for us to service the oil rigs, and it was on side. She was with him on the opposite side of the river that night.

43:26 Speaker 4: There was a little boat there to take him out to work, but the boss hadn't turned up. It was late, so Jerry was trying to get us sleep in the back of the car, and it's not in the best of moods. Maria said, we saw this blue thing. Bearing in mind Charlie and Calvin said that the UFO emitted this intense blue light. She saw this blue thing come down the river, not in the river, you know, And she said it went opposite us, over the other bank of the river and seemed to be either looking for somebody or it was lost.

43:58 Speaker 4: Now she knew the areas, you know. There was no airfield there, there's no helicopters, you know. And then she said, we decided me and her husband to walk down this pier and put his clothes on the boat. And she says, as we're walking down the pier, there's this huge splash in the water next to me, out of the water. Then these are her words, comes this gray man, and it came right up to her face, literally right there. And then she went back down into the water and was gone. And Maria was quite emotional about this.

44:37 Speaker 1: And I asked them, as anyone should be.

44:40 Speaker 4: Yeah, and she said, I can see I've got impressions. I can see something out of my peripheral vision. I can't quite make it out what it is. And she said, I often wondered if something similar hadn't happened to us, that happened to Charlie and Kelvin. So her husband went to She said it was about nine o'clock when this happened, but she wasn't sure. They didn't have a watch. Once she got back to the car, she led it. She ran like, hell, it was twelve o'clock. So there's several hours to.

45:13 Speaker 1: Account quite a bit of time.

45:15 Speaker 4: Yes, So Jerry came back home and said, don't tell anybody, we'll think we're nuts. So they told their two daughters, who are now grown up, that they've seen these blue lights, but they didn't mention anything else. So Calvin's book comes out. It does well. One of the local charities in the area raised some money to have a historic marker near the site, and that was officially opened by the mayor, and Maria and Jerry Blair came along to the opening. She was publicized locally and they were interviewed by the local TV and again they just talked about these blue lights they'd seen.

45:52 Speaker 4: They didn't mention the Gray Man on TV. And then I'd passed Maria and Jerry's details onto my colleague that Dr Irena Scott, I'd pubably served Irene's books previously, and it was just easier for somebody in the States to interview people there. And it was from this strange shounding yorkshman from the other side of the Atlantic. So Dr Scott took home from there. What happened was Jerry took ill, seriously ill, and he was in hospital and he was going to have an operation and wasn't sure if he was going to make it.

46:33 Speaker 4: There's Irena, so he said to Maria, phone, mister Mattle, and he literally phoned me from his hospital bed. And Maria has a recording of a video of it as well, saying, I lied, I saw everything my wife saw, you know. And he still got the stickers on his chest, his bare chest not sitting on his hospital bed. Thankfully, he made it through the operation, but it was only a stop gap,

47:02 Speaker 4: but it was gonna it was going to pass.

47:04 Speaker 1: Away, yes, and and so something it was he in his mind it could have gone really bad that day, you know what I mean. So he was getting the deathbed confession read essentially what happened.

47:20 Speaker 4: He then said to his wife, Maria, I got something to tell you, and he said, we too were abducted. And he told her that he told her the whole story and what it is. Maria wasn't looking out of a peripheral vision. She actually had her eyes her eyes screwed up tightly closed, and she could look out of the corner of her eye, and she looked up to the other end of the pier, and two of these creatures were there with her husband, and they were the same creatures as Charlie and Calvin reported. And Jerry said, I've got my eye on that one, as if one of them was in charge or something of that nature.

48:08 Speaker 4: And then they went back across the river. And you know, Dr Scott is recording all this. Maria's telling Irene her one way or another, and then sadly, you know, Jerry did pass away, so we had all that information. We made a documentary. But before that, Maria came back to hers and said she'd like to undergo hypnosis. We declined to begin with because we thought she's still grieving over her husband, right.

48:43 Speaker 1: She came that will taint I mean you and you just don't want to press that line.

48:50 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, So she came back again some sometime later and we said, okay, I'll see what I can do. So all I did, Tyler, was look at online at some hypnotherapists in the area, and I just sent them an email asking if they did regressive hypnoses. I didn't tell them what I needed. And our lady stepped forward, called Crystal, Crystal Slaughter, and she says, yeah, she says, I'll even go to the client's home if it's If it's better for them, they can come here back and go there. So we arranged for Crystal to put Maria under aggressive hypnoses and this was done at Calvin's house.

49:25 Speaker 4: She'd become friends now with Calvin and his wife wen At She knew Calvin had that hypnosis before, so he was there, you know, And we didn't tell the hypnotherapist anything. We just said time, location, that was it.

49:41 Speaker 1: Nothing about what they would be hearing.

49:43 Speaker 4: No, not what we didn't know we're going to hear anything. So we just said the date, time and location. And I had a local cameraman professional to film it, so we had it on the record as well. And Maria is very emotional on the hypnosis. There's big gaps between question and answer. And I know that are those out there that said hypnosis is not the way to do things. They may be right, they may be wrong, but this is what Maria wanted. This wasn't from us, and she, to cut a long story short, she said these creatures were interested in her eggs.

50:21 Speaker 4: They wanted to make beings that look like us, but could walk amongst us unrecognized. I mean, none of us were expecting any of that. You should have seen the Hypnothrapis's face when Maria started talking about this. Maria's opinion then went on to be that they had been abductions. Firmly believed that abdocted by aliens, and she believed that they'd had experiences before, but you know, she couldn't remember any of it. And and then she believed that her and Jerry were the actual targets that night, not Charlie and Calvin, simply because the fact that they were supposed to be at that location at that time, and Charlie and Calvin only decided to go there that day coming home from work, So they were like collateral damage if you like, you know.

51:14 Speaker 4: That was her opinion. We have no evidence of any of that. It's just her opinion. Jumping forward in time, we did a documentary and we missed out on interviewing Maria. So we have a lady in the artic called Chelsea Chelsea Norton Prince. It's part of the Ocean Springs Historical Society. She has an interest in the case. She met Calvin bought his book. So I asked Chelsea, I said, you have an iPhone? He says, yeah, so could you film an interview with Maria on your iPhone? It's not perfect and all that, but it's better than nothing, Tyler.

51:51 Speaker 4: So right, we did that. I sent some questions for Chelsea to ask Maria, and Maria talked to Way. One of the questions I wanted to clarify was when did you first meet Calvin Parker Ben In mind, she'd gone to the opening of the historical marker, and I believe that's when they in person met. She came back and she said, I first saw Calvin Parker when he was abducted. And she claimed she saw what was happening on the other side of the river, and she said, I thought it was men playing around you and messing around doing stupid things.

52:37 Speaker 4: Then things started to happen to them, So she take her eye off what was going on on the other side.

52:42 Speaker 1: Of right, right right, She had her own. Yeah. So are you saying that there is a possibility that Maria saw Calvin and and Charles being abducted across the river.

52:58 Speaker 4: That's what she claims. Yes, Bear in mind her husband Jerry, who wasn't the most talkative of men. You know, I did speak to him. He did say, you know, I lied. I saw the same as my wife. He called them the humanoids. I saw the human EIDs go back out across the water. So Jerry's deathbed confession wasn't an omen eye thing. It took, you know, several months before he passed away, but right to his dying breath, he was still trying to tell his wife Maria what had happened to them, and then Maria has since claimed that she'd had other contacts with them on a psychological level, and a sighting of one of the the UFOs, whatever you want to call it, and.

53:47 Speaker 1: Well, we can't forget that that. Charles also, this is even back in when the past school case was unfolding, if you will, Charles said that he had another encounter and so didn't Calvin ray.

54:04 Speaker 4: Yeah, what what it was with Charlie? He claimed that he would hear voices, yes, from the from these beings, although these beings at the time, these ugly things didn't actually make a noise, but it was from the from them, and Charlie became almost like a contact tee. These beings were going to help mankind, were going to help humanity, and he was going to be part of it. He didn't know what the hell it was, just that he was going to be part of it. He had another sighting which was witnessed by all the family and they were all in the same car.

54:40 Speaker 4: It was in daylight. That's all in his book, of course. So Maria is a similar nature. Yes, Calvin, again, this is what we were talking about at the beginning of all this title was asking the right people the right questions and asking them in the right manner as well. Right via Peter Robbins, who was assistant to Bod Hopkins for many years.

55:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just interviewed him at Contact.

55:11 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, we found out that both Hopkins had actually put both Charlie and Calvin under hypnosis, Charlie twice in the nineteen eighties, a few years apart Calvin in nineteen ninety three. Calvin had another encounter in nineteen ninety three on his own again out in a little boat fishing, and he told a friend of his and his friend said, there's a guy called Hopkins doing a UFO conference in Florida. They drove their unannounced to the hotel that was having this convention. His friend went in. Calvin wouldn't go in bound Bud, but says, here's my room, key, I'll meet him there, And he met Calvin in his hotel room.

56:00 Speaker 4: I knew Bud pretty well and put him on the hypnosis. Not only that, he recorded it. So we have the audio recording of that hypnosis session, and we also have the two hypnosis sessions with Charlie Hickson and Bud Hopkins. I said there a few years apart the two recordings with Charlie. One talks about some encounters he had as a young fella, a young boy, and then what happened in nineteen seventy three similar you know, Calvin talked about what happened, and then we had the opportunity in I think it was twenty twenty two.

56:41 Speaker 4: Kathleen Marden, who is a hypnotherapist, was in town, so we put Calvin on the hypnosis then and we recorded it audio and Calvin goes through what happened in ninety three seventy three, and loan behold, he had two out as a young boy as well, and he talks about them. So we've got all you know this, more and more evidence has been accumulated, but simply because we asked the right questions now. At the time of their encounter in nineteen seventy three, Calvin says Charlie was grabbed by two of these creatures and they scratched his arm.

57:22 Speaker 4: Calvin claims while he was on board that removed his lower clothing and his shoes and socks, and they stuck something thing in his foot and it hurt.

57:35 Speaker 4: So when I started to write the book with Calvin, I asked him I said, do you have any photos Calvin or documents anything. He says, no, it's lost all of those in Hurricane Katrina. The house is on the ten feet of water. So my job, well, he's writing, I'm politely asking people, do you have anything on Pasca go the first place I went towards the Center for UFO Studies founded in nineteen seventy three by Dr Iyek. Yes, they sent me a file. In the middle of this file is a one page typewritten document.

58:13 Speaker 4: Titlet's written on an old typewriter, stated October thirteenth, nineteen seventy three, so it's two days after the event. It's one page, and it basically describes Charlie and Calvin sipping down to their underwear, I mean giving the one sober, and they found puncture ones in Charlie Hixon's arm and Calvin Parker's foot burn in mind these guys had said. Charlie said they scratched his arm and Challenger had I stuck something in his foot? He mentioned photographs, but there one oh photographs. So I thought this document is great.

58:51 Speaker 4: I asked Calvin, who the hell gave you the once sober? He said it was it was Dr Harder. She wasn't a medical doctor, but he had the aside just to look them over. About a year eighteen months later, I had an email out of the blue from the same gentleman the Center for UFO Studies, says Philip, I've been rummaging through some files today. I assume you've already got these. I wasn't looking for them, but I found them, and here you go, Loan, Behold, it's the photographs to go with this document. So you have Charles Yes, so we have Charlie Hickson's forearm with the marks in it, Calvin's foot.

59:31 Speaker 4: These are photographs. They're not digital, but they were digitized obviously, so they were scowned. Back in front and on the back is the person's names, so we know which photo. So we have their testing money saying we were scratched. Calvin said that stuck something in my foot. We have this written document that's probably my doctor, James Harder. And then we have two photographs to go with it. So they're not they're not laser guided incisions or anything like that title let's but they are minor injuries that they do support the testimony of these two guys.

1:00:08 Speaker 1: And and and then and let's step back a sec is there any like you don't think that there's any possibility that these guys set out. A lot of people say that they were uh, that they were drinking, and you know, maybe they can concocted this idea after the fact to gain some notoriety. But I mean, that just doesn't add up in my book, because.

1:00:36 Speaker 4: The first discussion they had when this had happened. Have to remember Calvin was dumed to get married the following month. He didn't live in the area. He lived in Laurel, Mississippi, which is nearly two hundred miles away. I believe he'd gone there to work.

1:00:50 Speaker 1: That he had just gotten that job too.

1:00:53 Speaker 4: That was his first day. He said, I got hired and fired and abducted on the same So he didn't he didn't know the area at all. And one of the things he was worried about was his future father in law finding out, and he said, he won't let me marry Waynette. So the first discussion they had afterwards was we're not going to tell anybody not a word. So this they go to Charlie to Calvin's car, which is by the way, he's a brand new Rambler hornet wherever the hell one of them is. That's what he was driving.

1:01:30 Speaker 4: It was bright yellow and the wind. The passenger window facing the UFO was shattered. It fell out, and then Calvin gets in the car. He said it took him twenty attempts to start it and this was a brand new car. So they set off with the intention on going home. But then Charlie had a change of heart. Remember Charlie was in the Army and fourteen career. He says, We've got to tell somebody, what if this thing comes back? Does this to somebody else? Right? What if this is the start of an invasion? So they pulling at a local store that's got a pay phone.

1:02:12 Speaker 4: There's no mobile phones in nineteen seventy three. This is a that's what they were driving, so.

1:02:19 Speaker 1: There was a brand new brand.

1:02:24 Speaker 4: So they first phone Keysler and Air Force Base. Keysler said, Project bull Book is closed. We don't have anything to do with UFOs. Phone phone your local authorities. So they phoned the police. Just so happens that the guy who took the phone call from them was Sheriff Diamond's son, Mick Diamond. He was the police dispatcher on duty that night. And he passed the call then through to the Jackson County Sheriff's office. Now Mickey is still alive and we communicated with him, and he said, Philip, I must have had over fifty telephone reports of UFOs that night.

1:03:09 Speaker 4: And it says not only that, when I logged off my shift and went back to the station, there were people there in person reporting it in person.

1:03:20 Speaker 1: And were were they all saying some?

1:03:26 Speaker 4: I mean, I'll give you an example, Tyler, give you an example. He said. One of the fellows reporting something in person was a minister, so as a member of what we call the clergy. Right, So when Calvin's book comes out, I was contacted by a guy in Greece. We've since become good friends. It's called Stephanos and his surname is Panageo Takis. Now Stephanos was a UFO researcher and writer, and not in nineteen seventy three, but in nineteen eighty one. He was in the Greek Merchant Navy. He was a radio operator and they docked in Pasca Gula.

1:04:19 Speaker 4: Now that was his favorite case. So they had a week's lieover. So he set off to get an interview with Charlie Hickson, which he did. He went to the police station and explained what he was trying to do with writing for a magazine back home, and they said, oh, why don't you speak to pastor a clergyman, Pastor Emanuel Siegallas, and here's his address. So Stephanos literally went and knocked on his door. Just by coincidence, the pastor was in and his family would have Greek collagin. Then you've got a Greek guy standing on my doorstep.

1:04:59 Speaker 4: So Stephanos went in, interviewed him, wrote this up, broke his story up, and of course since then he's passed away, but he still had a copy of his his interview. What the pastor said was on that night of October the eleventh, nineteen seventy three, him and another chat by the name of Don broad Us, don't work for the Pascagoula Police Department.

1:05:29 Speaker 1: And credible witnesses.

1:05:31 Speaker 4: Then we have a young church volunteer, a young lady in the back of the car. They're going to a meeting that is run by the church for people who had alcohol problems.

1:05:42 Speaker 1: Oh, the old AA meeting.

1:05:44 Speaker 4: Yeah. Now they're driving away and it's this young lady who was looking out of the side window and she points out this thing that's coming and it went right all over the in front of him, right across the road in front of them. They even drew a picture for stephan Us. It looked pretty similar to what Charlie and Calvin's said, and it was heading in that general direction. Now, Pascor Cigalas has seems passed away, as the other gentleman in the car Don brought us passed away. What about this young lady in the back seat.

1:06:18 Speaker 4: Now, what I'm saying is here we have a clergyman on the record, and we have Mick Diamond going back to the police station saying there's a there's a minister in there reporting it. Are this the same guy? I can't imagine that minister's report in UFOs that night. Anyway, we managed to find the name of this lady in the back seat. She she wasn't a native of the area. She gone to work there for a couple of years. I think she taught at the local school and helped out at the church. But I found a couple of social media accounts for her.

1:06:58 Speaker 4: We've got a name, but they hadn't been used in a long time, and I left it. At one point, Tyler, we couldn't seem to contact and for some reason a while later, I went back to one of these accounts and there was the name of a church on it. So I just simply googled the church and it was a church in Maryland, whatever the hell that is.

1:07:26 Speaker 1: That's yeah, a little celt about south of Massachusetts.

1:07:32 Speaker 4: I know that is right up. So the church also had a website. So I'm looking on the website and there was a couple of sermons that you could download, and it told you who the sermons were. Now, this lady was called Joe and Hallmark, and here we had two sermons by two people called Hallmark, And I'm thinking, is this her sons? Is it her husband? So I sent the church a very non descript email saying, we're looking to speak to Joann Hallmark. She worked with pastor Cigalis back in nineteen seventury. Pastagal, if she's around your pasta email on please, and that was it.

1:08:19 Speaker 4: Three or four weeks later, she replied, So now I had to tell her what we were all about. So I did, and she came back to us again a few weeks later, sent a fresh photograph of what she looks like now. I'd sent the old black and white one of her, which she found very amusing. She confirmed, She confirmed all what she'd seen. Dr Irena Scott spoke to her on the phone and interviewed her on the phone as well. So that's how things have happened. You know, Pastor Goolu eyes and was the pastor and the minister the same per us and that night at the police station.

1:09:02 Speaker 4: I don't know, but the police station certainly had his details because they told Stephanos. So.

1:09:08 Speaker 1: Yeah. So it it does add up, and and it and it and it falls in line again. You know, you're looking for these these these these these threads, and they they they keep kind of being pinned back to that something extraordinary happened on the Pascagoula River.

1:09:31 Speaker 4: Yeah, and a number of people have said all these two guys were drinking moonshine and whatever. Listen, Tyler, I come from an Irish family. My family at times certainly when those celebrations could drink, you know, and I've never known any of them hallucinate anything ever, you know.

1:09:51 Speaker 1: You black out.

1:09:53 Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's an Remember.

1:09:56 Speaker 1: That didn't happen.

1:09:57 Speaker 4: Calvin didn't drink anyway. I think I think, you know, Charlie liked to be a tuba, so what you know, it's no big deal. But then we have all these other people around it, so it's not just about Charlie and Calvin.

1:10:14 Speaker 1: Right, you could essentially, and obviously you know this, it wouldn't be this way, but you could at this point in time, with all the evidence given, we could take Calvin and Charles out of the equation and still have a pretty good case.

1:10:33 Speaker 4: Absolutely, And that's why we called the book Beyond Reasonable Doubt. With Irene and I had written the book and we had another title for it. I can't remember what it was. And I was sat watching a courtroom drama one night on the TV and I said, we have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. I emailed Irena and so I think I've got a title for the book. That's what we as you've just said, Tyler, we believed, right, if we took all the evidence with a crude and all those people, put them in a court room, we could prove not that they would abducted by ailings, but we could prove it something out of the ordinary took place that night, you know, Yes, and it wasn't just located with Charlie and Calvin.

1:11:17 Speaker 1: Correct, And I now someone had asked that earlier, and I meant to get to it that Now there was a more official sighting or something that happened with the It was the Navy. Yeah, they saw a blue glow under the water.

1:11:37 Speaker 4: Yeah. What happened was it was just about three weeks later. I believe it was either November sixth or November the ninth, I can't remember off the top of my head, but it was in the same stretch of river where Charlie and Calvin were fishing that night, but a bit further out, and there were three local fishing boats, three little skiffs with eight people in them, were out fishing and it was dark, but they saw something under the water. It was circular. It's about thirty feet in diameter, and it was segmented like they liking it to like the old parachutes in the Second World War where they had segments in them.

1:12:22 Speaker 4: They got so close, they got so close to this thing that could they literally put an oar in the water and hit it and it Yeah. Then the lights went off and it would appear elsewhere and they would chase it like a cat and mouse. So one of the skiffs went to the coast Guard station and reported it in person a coast guard, so they sent a boat out. They too saw it, and they too hit it with a pole or an and it went clung again. Now we have the full Coastguard reports completely on re Active and it gave us all the names of the people.

1:13:03 Speaker 4: In fact, I've got a freedom of information at requests still going through because they got only civilians and interviewed them. So they have that interview on tapes. Now whether it still exists or not, I don't know, so I'm still trying to get access to that tape. The next day, the Navy came out and they got one of the guys that was there the night before. He thought the Navy were a bit stupid because he said, well it happened there. There's just nothing there. There's just water, you know. And it was said that the Navy were going to produce a report, but we've never seen it, we've never found it, so maybe they didn't.

1:13:48 Speaker 4: But we have the complete Coastguard report and it says in that that these things were unidentified. So again because I've been putting the feelers out one colleague, So, no, have you spoken to so and so he's got a photograph of all those witnesses. No, I'll ask him, so he said, A pought, Yeah, I've got it. So what what they did out of the Coastguard, all the Navy, They'll line them up on the on the side of the and took a photograph on. But then again, when you turn the photograph over, it gives you everybody's.

1:14:23 Speaker 1: Name, right, because that's what that's what it was a common practice.

1:14:27 Speaker 4: Yeah, what we did we put that photograph out on Facebook and we said, anybody know any of these people, we'd like to speak to them. Within a couple of hours, Tyler, a young lady had contacted me privately. He says, they're all deceased apart from one. And she said yeah, but she says that one's my father in law.

1:14:51 Speaker 1: Oh shoot, a.

1:14:54 Speaker 4: Chap called Earl Ryan, I believe his name. I said, can we speak to him? Yeah? Again, the same day we had his phone number. I passed that on directly to doctor Scott and she interviewed all right. He was sixteen at the time when it happened. He was on that boat with his dad. His father was the one that hit it.

1:15:15 Speaker 1: And again again they are saying this. They are saying that they stuck an ore into the water and some sort of physical reaction. So this thing was physically there.

1:15:31 Speaker 4: Yes, clink dunk, and that's in the same stretch of water. Now people will say, well, it's got no connection to Pasca Google and it happened three weeks later, So well, I don't know. I mean, if it was a guy shot at the bus stop and then an little guy was shot at the other side of the road three weeks later, you kind of think there was a link somewhere there, you know, in the same place. Something bizarre happening. But again, we have all that documented. Talist is not here, say you know, we have it all documented, no reactions.

1:16:10 Speaker 4: There's even a handwritten letter in those documents that I think was sent to the UFO researcher at the time. I can't remember his name, but we have and it's by one of the Coastguard crew when he did a little drawing of it. Can't make out what the drawing is, but Leonard Stringfield. The letter was sent to Leonard Stringfield, and so we have all that, you know. So it's more testimony this time from the coast Guard and they saw it too, and they it and it went clunk.

1:16:46 Speaker 1: It's amazing to me. And and across most of these reports, they're all reporting that there's this blue light.

1:16:54 Speaker 4: A lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them. Yes, it seems the closer to the river they get to get the blue light. As they spread out other witnesses around the area, then they see different things again, you know, the mister. One of the criticisms at the time, in nineteen seventy three is that on the bridge, this was a toll bridge, so there was a toll booth. There was a man in it twenty four to seven. The guy was in it that night, never saw nothing, So it doesn't mean it wasn't somebody. He just didn't see it.

1:17:26 Speaker 4: We have, mister, we have a gentleman by the name of mister Rusty Anderson who was driving over that bridge that night with his wife and he saw it and he said it was down below us. Philip, and he said it was so low I thought it was going to crash. Says. The next day I went down by the river to my aunt's house, she lived down there, and he said, before I had chance to say anything. She said, you'll never guess what I saw last night.

1:17:56 Speaker 1: Now, Oh my god.

1:17:58 Speaker 4: Then Calvin Parker had a book signing in Pascagoula, and this old boy with gray hair like mine come up to Calvin and say, God, buy a book, mister Parker, Yeah, sign it way next there. She took the money and he said, oh, by the way, I saw that thing that night, and he walked away. Luckily for us, again, somebody was taking photographs, so we had a picture of him buying a book. I put it on social media. Like to speak to this guy laid here, I think it was at the library, said, I know that is. I'll ask him if he'll talk to you.

1:18:35 Speaker 4: He said, yeah, I think it was mister Lewis Lee. Now, that night of October the eleventh, nineteen seventy three, mister Lee was on the other side of the river in the shipyard as a crane operator, and he said, my cab was about ten or twelve feet off the ground. Some as I got in it, I could see this dwn tea out over the water, not up in the sky, Tyler, you know, he said, I could see it. It was a white blue. He said, at times it almost looked transparent in the middle, and he watched it for some minutes.

1:19:15 Speaker 4: He said, the only reason I took my eyes off it is because my colleague down below he's shouting because I've got something on the end of my crane.

1:19:23 Speaker 1: You know, right right right, he start working.

1:19:25 Speaker 4: And when I look back at it going So I said to miss mister Lee god resting has passed away since we interviewed him. And I said, did you report it to anybody? He says, Philip, this is nineteen seventy three. There ain't no ghostbusters to call. You're going to report it to, he said, my family? And then you know whether mister Anderson he'd been He was the chap driving over the bridge, he wrote on his Facebook or being interviewed about the UFO sighting. A yeah, And there's a couple of comments underneath, and there's a a lady with a completely different name.

1:20:08 Speaker 4: She said, oh, I saw it that night. So I contacted her and I said, will you I was an interview said yes, she was called Pamela. Pamela Raley Eves. Now Pamela lived about a mile that way, and she said, our house was so over up the river, and I was putting my children to bed upstairs, and I'm going to close the curtains. I see this blue thing out over the river. Jesus Cht. So what you've got. You've got Charlie and Calvin here, You've got over here Rusty Anderson on the bridge, on the bridge, You've got the other side.

1:20:46 Speaker 4: You've got mister Lewis Lee in the shipyard. And then you've got Pamela Railey eaves about a mile this way. And then if you're adding the Blairs, yeah, so they're only in the whole river covered, yeh yeh. Now, when when we had Maria Uh hypnotized, I used the same hypnotists while we could to put Calvin on the hypnosis again and filmed it. Not that we needed to, and we just thought it were good to have it on the record visually.

1:21:20 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

1:21:21 Speaker 4: And this time I put some questions for the hypnotist.

1:21:26 Speaker 1: Questions.

1:21:27 Speaker 4: Well yeah, but she knew what to expect now, so I said, just ask Calvin. When he's stood on that pier with his fish, you know, he's rolling the water, can he just describe what he sees in front of him, not behind him, what happens? So Calvin, she asked the questions. He said, yeah, he said, there's a boat going up and there was the company name on it and oh a noah.

1:21:56 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you're getting corroborating evidence for the other side. Other side.

1:22:00 Speaker 4: Well, then he says, there's the bridge there and you know, and he said, and right at the end, Tyler the little throwaway comment. He says, oh, there's two figures on the other side of the river. Now is that the Blairs? Is it someone else? We'll never know because if you don't listen carefully, you'll miss it. And I jumped when he said it and answered, what That's not what we expected at all. So so we have all that on record on you.

1:22:38 Speaker 1: Maria in her regression sees Calvin and Charles possibly and now Calvin is seeing possibly the Blairs on the other side. This is I mean, it's blows my mind how this case is not the smoking gun.

1:22:58 Speaker 4: Well, to me, it is. It's the case. I mean, I started in this subject back in the nineteen eighties and I never thought I'd end up with anything like this, and it keeps growing. There's other stuff as well, and we could be here all night. What we've done. You showed a little piece of it. I've worked with Nacy Weird. We've made a four part documentary there. It is Pastor Gooula seventy.

1:23:27 Speaker 1: Three, very well made.

1:23:30 Speaker 4: It tells some of these stories. So you'll see Maria on there, both under hypnosis and number interview. You'll see vintage footies of Charlie and Calvin. You see Calvin under hypnosis. You'll see a bit about me that is on Amazon Prime now, so if you are a subscriber to Amazon Prime, you can watch that completely free of charge wherever you are in the world. It's a four part series.

1:23:54 Speaker 1: It's a really darcy One. Thing I really really love about Darcy is I mean he's just a machine. I mean he really is. He's a machine, and you know he is again he I liken him to you in that category of people who aren't prone to believing everything. For instance, I mean, you have a lot to say about a lot of the you know, modern post twenty seventeen UFO stuff, and I know you have your views. You're not one of these guys who just believes every story they're told, And neither is Darcy. No.

1:24:35 Speaker 4: I mean now, I work closely with Darcy on as he came to my house being in England and interviewed me, and I think he's done a great job. He's got some great reconstructions, some fantastic graphics that aren't the kind of cheat and cheerful stuff you can just download online. He's right done his best. And we've got a lot of vintage stuff on there as well, because almost we can't interview any of the guys now they both passed away, so we have to rely on what we have in that respect. But again, thanks to friends and colleagues out there, we've uncovered a whole raft of other visual material since we made that documentary.

1:25:17 Speaker 1: All right, So the case keeps grolly.

1:25:20 Speaker 4: It keeps growing. There is more to come. There is more to come. And I'll give you one example. It's not exactly the case, but out of the blue, somebody sent me a link and said, I've just listened to this on YouTube. What it was. A gentleman had recorded his father, I think it's immobile Alabama, and his father had a sighting on October nineteen seventy three. In fact, he saw it several times the same night. It was out on a double date and they saw this thing and he took the girlfriend home and he sees it again.

1:26:03 Speaker 4: He's even got a period of missing time. So this this chap had the sense to record his father and then upload that recording to YouTube. There's no visual, it's just it's just audience. Yeah, but it's another it's mobile is not that far away, I think from from Pasca, Gooula, and it's October nineteen seventy three, spopped into my inbox. I don't know the person that sent it, you know. So we've got our we're out there. Yeah. So now when people are finding an information, they think, oh, was that guy who's been doing all the work, and that that mantle fellow.

1:26:46 Speaker 4: I'll send him this, send him this.

1:26:49 Speaker 1: Right. So that's and I think people feel comfortable with you because you're not you don't you don't touch them, You take a will you asked the way questions, And I think people feel comfortable with someone like you who you know, it's not going to call them crazy or you know what we've.

1:27:06 Speaker 4: Done with that, with the information we've built upright, that is again we leave that door open. This is what we've found, This is who the witnesses are, this is what they had to say. We've interviewed. These are photographs, these are the documents. You make up your own mind. We're not trying to indoctrinate anybody and say this is what happened. In my opinion, and it was only an opinion, is that we had to begin with, we had two ordinary men who encountered something extraordinary that night that has since expanded much further than we ever imagined.

1:27:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be. It could honestly be one of the most well documented mass sightings. I mean, at this point, I think it's pretty safe to say that, you know, like like you we talked about in the beginning that beyond a reasonable doubt, there was a craft that that was up that that that was in the air over the Pascagoula River, not up in the sky, specifically over the river, and I mean, it's it's just remarkable. And then the Coastcard comes in they see something underwater. We were you know, it's not related.

1:28:25 Speaker 4: Maria Blair said, you saw it coming down the river, and she wondered, so you wondered, she wondered if they were using the river as.

1:28:33 Speaker 1: A map, you follow the river exactly.

1:28:37 Speaker 4: It's just you know, and of course, since we made the documentary. Since we wrote that book, a lot of the news stuff is in another book called Pasca Gooler Oncoboard. That's that's out now, but there's there's a lot more in there that hasn't seen the light of day. Videos that's the one. So we've got more material in that with We've closed a few loose ends and settled that because I'm talking about the bridge tender that night he didn't He was in the newspaper said I didn't.

1:29:13 Speaker 1: See anything, and so that's funny that they tried to use that as as.

1:29:18 Speaker 4: A However, there was a UFO researcher. I thinks Richard Hayden wrote to the bridge tender and it wasn't as obstructive when he was contacted by a UFO researcher rather than the press. He's saying, well, I'm want looking, I'm doing something.

1:29:39 Speaker 1: Else, right, So it's probably a case of the media kind of taking the words. Kind of what Calvin was worried about, right, was the words being miskewed. So the bridge tender could have more or less said, you know, I didn't see anything, but I also wasn't looking for something, you know.

1:30:01 Speaker 4: So what you see in the new book is the actual letters themselves a quote from them that I reproduced the letters so you can read it for yourself. Tyler. You know now the main debunker in nineteen seventy three was the late Philip Class.

1:30:18 Speaker 1: Oh my lord, so.

1:30:22 Speaker 4: Philip Class tried to say that Charlie Hickson's polygraph test was null and void because the guy who gave him it only a few weeks after the event wasn't qualified. It was called Scott Glasgow. And not only that, Scott Glasgow came from New Orleans, and it was saying why didn't they use a couple of the local people found out that the local people there were two places in the area that could have done it. One said, I'm not getting involved with UFO, was full stop. The other one said, we only run polygraphs some people who have been the kids of a crying mister Parker, and mixed the Hickson avant.

1:31:05 Speaker 4: Now, when this all took off, when it all happened, the shipyard gave Charlie and Calvin the use of their attorney. It was called Mike Klingo. They didn't need him, but it's just something the shipyard did. Just so happened, mister Kolingo. You a detective agency in New Orleans that theyd polygraphs and they could get him to do it for nothing. So they shipped the guy, Scott Glasgow over and he was qualified because during the lockdown, you remember the lockdown, the COVID lockdown.

1:31:39 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't think anyone could forget the terrible.

1:31:43 Speaker 4: And detective agency in New Orleans was still open and it was still the same guy that ran it. So I wrote to them and then they replied to me by an email and they explained the situation. So we closed that door. But but it doesn't really matter it tally because if you pass a polygraph test, skeptics will say, well, they're not admissible in core. If you fail it, you're a goddamn liar. So you can't win either way. But the polygraph examine it was very skeptical and he ran the test three times because he wanted Charlie to fail.

1:32:21 Speaker 1: Of course, it is very funny that you use you said that like that, because right, if you pass the polygraph, well you know it's it's only it's only a tool among among others. But if you fail it, it's you failed. You're you must be lying this is what. Yeah, so it's it's I think it's good to put that into context as well, because.

1:32:49 Speaker 4: That's that's in past cooler uncovered and it's a lot more in there as well.

1:32:55 Speaker 1: Right, And you know, you and I have talked privately, you know, with also with doctor Irena Scott. But I think something bigger happened in the span of that September area to the December nineteen seventy three. There are so many cases. It seems like the UFO there must have been. It seems like there was a surge in activity in the year nineteen seventy three.

1:33:29 Speaker 4: Well, we also have to remember Dr Scott now in October nineteen seventy three, she lives in Ohio, but she was in Missouri. She was studying for a PhD. Yeah, and a mother foonder have you heard that big bang?

1:33:47 Speaker 1: Yeah?

1:33:48 Speaker 4: No, I don't know what you're talking about. There's been this huge bang, this huge noise. You know, it's rattled the windows and so on. I mean it didn't think much of it around the next day. So there's been UFO sightings. People are hiding under the tables and what iver heard. Dr Scott wasn't involved in UFO research stage was stunning for a PhD. She thought they're all bonkers. So some years later, this event popped back into her consciousness for some reason, and she remembered the year, and she remembered the month, but she couldn't figure out when it was.

1:34:26 Speaker 4: And she went to the local reference library and looked through the old newspaper cuts and she found the details of it. This huge I call it a sonic boom, She tells me off for that. It wasn't a sonic boom, but it's best way I can describe it. It was eleventh October the eleventh, nineteen seventy three. It happened. It was across the same date, went halfway across the United States. So what I really did? She put on her scientist's head and try to figure out how this noise had been made, And she couldn't find any anything, you know, jet aircraft, rockets, meteorites, you name it.

1:35:09 Speaker 4: She worked with others on it. She couldn't find an explanation whatsoever.

1:35:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, am I mistaken in saying that this is I think it's one of It is either the first or second loudest second hoarded noise ever.

1:35:27 Speaker 4: Yeah, second normally to the island of Krakatoa.

1:35:31 Speaker 1: Right, yes, yes, okay, So second, yeah, so what could possibly make such a sound?

1:35:40 Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, Irena is the Irene is the scientist, not meaning she couldn't find an.

1:35:46 Speaker 1: Answer, and and I mean this is heard. I mean not not to mention the fact that it's the same exact day as the passing Google case halfway across the kind entry or or some miles away, but that this sound was So could this s been you know, a portal or an opening in the space time, Like I mean, your mind starts to go so many different places with it with the optic in activity, the UFO activity.

1:36:18 Speaker 4: One of the one of the little things that is that's not necessarily a smoking gun, but a fascinating thing. Happened after the last book came out. Sadly, after Darsy's documentary was finished, I was contacted by a guy called mister Van Payne. Mister Payne thought he was the first person to interview Charlie and Calvin. After their encounter, I said, okay, what mister van Payne was He was a photo journalist at the time, only a young guy. But he said, I had a contact in the Sheriff's Department, and I was tipped off Charlie and Calvin said, when I got there, they're gone.

1:37:12 Speaker 4: So he said. I went back the next morning, and of course they were gone again. They'd gone to the Singing River Hospital. He went there, he missed them again. They've gone to Keysla Air Force Base. So we went out to Keysler Air Force Base and he waited outside and when they came out, he asked for an interview on camera, and they said no, so he persuaded them to be interviewed with their backs to the camera. They've got their backs to the camera and he's here in front of us with his microphone and the camera's here and he interviews them and it so that's the first ever me your interview with Charlie and Calvin, and he sent me and we have permission to use it.

1:38:06 Speaker 4: Not only that Tyler. Of course, this was all on film in those days, not digital. It's film built the longest piece of film. There's another interview that mister Payne did. This time it's with the Civil Defense Establishments. They're meteorologist. Can't remember his name off the top of my head, huh, but he tracks something on radar.

1:38:33 Speaker 1: There was radar evidence, absolutely.

1:38:37 Speaker 4: And we have him. Yeah, we mister Van Payne interviews him in his radar station office whatever you want to call it, and then you know there's no cover up. The guy sat there with talking away and what is really interesting, there's there a two final interviews. These are completely different. There was a local taxi driver claim that a UFO landed in front of him and this crab like creature came out. He forgot that his power was part behind him and he didn't see anything that I want interviewed as well, saying it's talking bunk coming.

1:39:20 Speaker 4: So we even had a hope thrown in for good measure.

1:39:24 Speaker 1: Just for good. Do you think that there's a possible Well, I won't go down that route because we could speculate about that all day and say do you think that that that They tried to inject some nonsense and.

1:39:37 Speaker 4: The guy stepped forward, so as a journalist would go and interview him, can you either use it or you don't? You know, they would have only used seconds, if not minutes, of these interviews on a news broadcast. We've got that, we've got the whole lot, so we can show it all.

1:39:59 Speaker 1: If he'd be do you think, I do want to kind of get into speculative territory here. I mean with the topic coming so far. You know, I think that if you asked, you know, out of one hundred people in nineteen seventy three, you know, if UFOs existed, maybe twenty to thirty would say yes and the rest would probably say no. But if you took that same survey today, I think ninety nine out of one hundred would say that there's life outside of Earth. Whether it's coming here, I mean, that's a different story.

1:40:35 Speaker 1: But the topic has progressed. Nonetheless, hearings in Congress, you know, pretty high level testimony, some videos coming out that are military recorded. People are much in a much more, more, much more of that headspace. Do you think that well, I guess. Do you think that this will remain It will remain as the most like well documented case and maybe one that could be used to usher in some sort of disclosure because you said earlier Charles had talked about how these beings wanted to help humanity.

1:41:24 Speaker 5: Uh.

1:41:25 Speaker 1: Could it have been that this chain reaction was set off to have the story be told and have it to come together at the right time. You know, people maybe people weren't ready for it back then, but they are now and the evidence is mounted so much. Uh, you know, it just seems like I maybe I'm maybe I'm pulling at straws here, but uh, maybe Charles wasn't wrong. Maybe he was one of the devices that these beings that occupied the craft were going.

1:41:55 Speaker 4: Well, probably not an old child. All we can say is, look, we accumulated all this information, all this documentation, and all these witnesses. What does it amount to, right, you know, what is it we're dealing with here? So even the skeptics have moved the goal pusts because initially Philip class just said it was a hoax, just down right now. Yeah, well that was one of his his standard fallbacks. He couldn't figure it out, just call it, just call it a hoax, you know. And I've got Philip Plass's whole file on it, and he's not looking to research it.

1:42:33 Speaker 4: He's just looking for some some dirt to throw, because you know, if you throw enough dirt some of it sticks, then you had another gentleman. Right. In twenty thirteen, Joe Nickel was part of the same skeptics organization. Joe now called it some kind of psychological explanation for them. So he called it more or less. I can't pronounce it properly, excuse me, but it's called a fure it. It's a follier dere It's where two people can have and you know, a phantom whatever at the same time, the losing every experience.

1:43:16 Speaker 1: A shared hallucination.

1:43:18 Speaker 4: Yeah, but what tends to happen with that is that somebody has a very strong belief and then you have a weak willed second person and he impassed not on him. Eventually he believes it. Yes, again, it's Charlie and Calvin had only been together a day. They didn't even work together, so they were only together driving to work and trapping home the night. Calvin lived two hundred miles away, so and they have the exact same, not the exact same, but very very similar experiences. So even the skeptics come twenty thirteen and moved there their goals on it.

1:44:01 Speaker 4: And I tried to explain this to Calvin. I said, even if it was a shared experience, would't that be fantastic? We could study that. Yeah, but it's not. You know, Calvin wanted an answer. If I could have said, look, I found it this is the answer. Whatever now X was, this is the he would have been happy with it. Another guy who was a British author. A few miles up the way is a place called Horn Island, and I believe the military have done some tests there with various chemicals and so on, but it closed in the nineteen sixties, and he believed that this was some kind of military experiment where they put on a hallucinogenic spray into the air.

1:44:53 Speaker 1: And again it's almost it's almost more ridiculous to say, there's.

1:44:58 Speaker 4: Boats, there's boats flowing not down the river, there's there's traffic going on by the bridge. You're really gonna put a hallucinogenic agent into the atmosphere? You know?

1:45:10 Speaker 1: That sounds like a batman villain, you know, it doesn't. I mean, it's almost more ridiculous to say.

1:45:17 Speaker 4: Well, then I read I read another one that it was the Russians. These creatures were actually Russians dressed in their underwater swimming outfit and they were behind them and the Russian there was nobody in the water. You know, these weren't Russian spies in you know, with their aquils on the goggles.

1:45:46 Speaker 1: If if if, if you're gonna say something like that, at least have some you know, again, the evidence, the puncture marks, the the the corroborating witnesses, all the evidence, all the data is suggesting this something extraordinary happened. And what these people are trying to say, Yeah, it's a Russian Okay, where is the evidence to suggest that exactly?

1:46:18 Speaker 4: You know, and I forget it was the head of is it Michael?

1:46:23 Speaker 1: Is it Sherma Michael.

1:46:26 Speaker 4: Yes, he's sort of the head of the skeptics movement. I've tried to get in touch with him to debate this case, but I've never managed to be successful. I would gladly do that, but maybe that's for the future.

1:46:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. But so if we're going to get into a little speculation here before we before we wrap up, but what do you I mean, do you think that these these beings, if if we're assumed, if we're going to go on the notion that there is some sort of non human uh intelligence. It's not some black black budgets special access program.

1:47:08 Speaker 5: You know, like.

1:47:11 Speaker 1: You know, some something like that. If we're on the notion that it's non human intelligence, I mean, what do you do you think that those beings that they saw were because they were different than how like people would often describe the grays or.

1:47:28 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they are they are unique to this case, unique English creatures roots or right from the very beginning, Charlie and Calvin called them robots simply because of the way they moved. I couldn't hear them breathing. They never made a noise, and we have that on the recordings that were made, you know, within two days this happening. One of those recordings is is Dr Heinek interviewing that showed Fred Diamond and they're talking about robots. So it's not something that was invented at some point, you know, in the future.

1:48:07 Speaker 4: They were talking about it there and then. And of course Calvin in his encounters saw this female creature. It's almost almost human. He did say she looked like to have them. He had a mask on, but she was almost human. And this is Calvin, you know, he did have a sense of humor. I said, well, what did she look like? He says, all I can tell you is if you saw it in a bar, you buy a drink. Yeah, that's the way. That's the way he could describe it. So she was she was they were in charge.

1:48:39 Speaker 1: Good looking woman, but she had a little bit of an extended middle finger.

1:48:43 Speaker 4: That's right, Yeah, yeah like that.

1:48:46 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:48:46 Speaker 4: She was also in Calvin's Encounters when he was a young fella. He saw the one in nineteen ninety three. And we're going to finish off and say that there was another encounter in nineteen ninety two, and we'll do with that at some point in the future. It's featured in my book. But it's something again that's unique and needs discussing at lengthing the future. Absolutely, we may we may be working on something to do that.

1:49:20 Speaker 1: Yes, we may be doing that, so I may. It gets me excited. That's why I love talking about this case because it's just like it is one, you know, because there are other Betty and Barney Hills, like there are these stories that that and again, you know, back then it was the world was a lot different than it is today, right. It's it's just for all these people to have seen something similar. The amount of production that we need to go into that and I and that's you know, in part why I brought up the alien autopsy because you know, that was a production so people put that together and you know, the evidence inevitably came out against it to that that it was a hoax or you're not not maybe a hoax, but it was made for something else and then used out of context.

1:50:13 Speaker 1: But you know, you've been on both sides. You know, you've you've seen a case. Uh you know where it leads and and when it falls apart.

1:50:25 Speaker 3: Uh.

1:50:25 Speaker 1: But with Pascal Gula, that just simply hasn't happened. It. It keeps getting more interesting as the years go on and the evidence mounths.

1:50:33 Speaker 4: Absolutely, you know, some of the loopholes that we thought were there that when you look into it, they're not. It's easy enough to close them.

1:50:41 Speaker 1: Right, And like I said, the amount of work that would have needed to go into to generally hoax this and have everybody on the same page. Uh, it's just it's it's just it's stupid. So two things, real quick. Do you have the radar evidence?

1:50:59 Speaker 4: No, would you have the gentleman talking about it, the guy who actually saw.

1:51:04 Speaker 1: You'd be obtainable?

1:51:07 Speaker 4: I think it unlikely, but we have his testimony nonetheless.

1:51:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, all right, yeah, because.

1:51:14 Speaker 4: I have to remember it. In the in those days, a lot of things used to get wiped because they needed to reuse it again. I mean yeah, it's like TV companies here that recorded things on video, they lost you unique archives because they're simply taped over them. Yep. It was just save money.

1:51:33 Speaker 1: That's why when the government, you know, when people fia the government and then they say, you know, we destroyed that evidence or we you know, they're like, how how could you do? So I'm like, it's easier than you think.

1:51:47 Speaker 4: That's why when when when we got the Coast Guard documents, they tell you what they have, We interviewed this, this, this, and this, all the people interviewed, and then it says tape recorder. So what they're putting together those documents is based on those interviews. And there's a tape recording. It's highlighted there. So we've got the documents. It is the tape still available? I don't know. But if you don't, if you don't, ask Tyler, and if you come back and say no, well that's another avenue.

1:52:16 Speaker 4: You know, you don't have to worry about it anymore. But if they've got it, then can we have a copy? Please?

1:52:23 Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, because that would be I mean, oh my god, would that be I mean oof? One more thing, you know, I wanted to bring up is do you think that it's possible that Philip Close was uh controlled opposition?

1:52:42 Speaker 4: I don't know. I think I think Philip, you know, played both sides. It kept him in the in the limelights. I don't understand why a skeptic would be like that, but.

1:52:54 Speaker 3: You have it.

1:52:54 Speaker 4: In the paranormal field. You sa have James Randy for example. I mean he he was a greater Gella. Yeah, but that made him famous, you know, the more attacked Glory, the more famous he got, and the more famous, you know, the great James Brandy got. And I've met an interview with Thegether, you know, I've sat in his living room. It's a house that he's got in England, and not necessarily, you know, but I used to work for a magazine. They wanted an interview with him. I traveled down and sat a very nice guy, very nice man, and we talked a lot about football, more than anything he has.

1:53:41 Speaker 4: He now has his own museum in Tel Aviv, so I think he's back out living there. Whether he's moved out of the area because of the ongoing hostilities or not, I don't know. But his house was worth a fortune. His house was worth a fortune, Tyler and I saw, I said, I said, Uri, you didn't buy this house bending spoones for a living. Where they hell did you get your money from? And he said, you're right, Philip. I got my money from downsing for oil and I was paid on results. Don't find any oil, don't get any money.

1:54:21 Speaker 4: And he told me that and we became friendly for a while. And in nineteen ninety nine I had a name fatal heart attack and I was in hospital and already rung the hospital and thanked the nurses for looking after me, and he sent them a signed card thanking them, and had no reason to do that. I just did it out of the blue, really, So it's a really nice guy. I don't believe in virtually anything he says. But he said he doesn't care. It's like Charlie and Calvin. I don't care whether he believe me, but Calvin would saying he told me a liar.

1:55:02 Speaker 4: If you call me a liar, I'm going to punch your light self. And as the same, I don't care if you believe me, but if you call me a hooser, I'll sue you. You know, it's a different approach. One time Calvin met Philip class and he told him exactly what he was going to do to him if you again, you.

1:55:23 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, I put the fear of God into him because because Calvin's a big boy, he was a tough guy.

1:55:32 Speaker 4: Calvin didn't mind a fight at all. And he said at high school, if any if any bothered, anybody bothered with his brother, then they got me to deal with, you.

1:55:41 Speaker 1: Know, exactly so, and that's the type of person he was. And that's not the type of person who And again he's a very reserved person. Anyone can see that from any of the interviews and any of the the the kind of the witness, not not the witness, but the researcher. Everyone. The way they talk about Calvin is that he was he was kind of like a teddy bear. He was big, big, but he he believed in God hard.

1:56:11 Speaker 4: He disliked all politicians, so he didn't take any of anybody political stance. When he was younger, he said he found two guys in the woods beating up a black guy. So Calvin got hold of these two guys and knocked seven bells out of them, you know. So he wasn't racist. You know. And it was a hard working, honest guy, you know. And in October nineteen seventy three, he had his life set out, was getting married in November's going to get married by a house, have children, have grandchildren, retired.

1:56:47 Speaker 4: That was it. That was it. But that night, October the eleventh, nineteen seventy three, changed his life forever.

1:56:56 Speaker 1: History had plans for Calvin, History had plans.

1:57:02 Speaker 5: It.

1:57:03 Speaker 1: I want to I'm just go this, you know, end here is that I want to hear you say it. Everything that you've heard, after everything that you've seen, everything you've dug into. Do you believe Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker were abducted by a non human intelligence in October of nineteen seventy three.

1:57:27 Speaker 4: I don't think we can prove that. I think we can prove that something quite extraordinary happened. So these two individuals and maybe others and were witnessed in part by others. But what happened to when Tyler, you know, it's for somebody else smarter than me to figure out. You know. The way I look upon my role is to document these incidents and put that into the growing pile of evidence that we have, hopefully somebody somewhere will we'll figure it out, somebody smarter than me. What I will say, something very bizarre happened.

1:58:08 Speaker 4: What your guess is as good as mine?

1:58:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and uh, Phil, I mean I think I think the community, the the UFO researching community, owes such a great debt to you, uh, for for how much legwork you've put into this case. If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't have Calvin Is. We wouldn't have Calvin's book. He probably wouldn't have come forward the way he came forward. Uh, and we wouldn't have had any time with him, you know if albeit uh you know, the latter half of his life, we wouldn't have had anything. I think. Uh, I think you you were the bridge that brought him into the light, that allowed him to tell his story and not feel subjugated or crazy or anything like that.

1:59:04 Speaker 4: We became good friends, yes, and Calvin would I'd earned his trust. No matter what we did, I would not do it without Calvin say so, right, And he would say, you don't have to ask me. I said, Calvin, this is your story, not mine. Yes, you know it's easy for me to say. Yes, I said to me, if you don't want to do these things, then don't do them. There's nobody going to say anything. For example, he spoke at a few conventions. Nobody made him do that. It wanted to do it. There is a movie written about Calvin.

1:59:40 Speaker 4: I've read the script and it might be moving forward at some point. But I warned him. I warned him, I said, Calvin, if you go down the movie roope, it may that the end finishing part may not be one hundred percent accurate.

1:59:56 Speaker 1: Right look at Fire in the Sky with Travis Vaulton.

1:59:59 Speaker 4: Be aware of that and if if, if, if you don't want to do it, nobody's going to force you. But he's done it. And the writers worked closely with Calvin. They spoke to him, Reddy's books, they would check things on it. I've read the screenplay. Each is about ninety accurate as it stands that if it ever goes into production, that can change. Of course.

2:00:22 Speaker 1: Was it a film or was it a This is a series?

2:00:26 Speaker 4: No, this is a feature film. There's been two written. There's been a feature film written and a four part drama series. Whether we'll never see any of them in production is a different matter. But they are there well I.

2:00:39 Speaker 1: Think the time is ripe for green lighting anything for us to do with UFOs. I think right now is in the zeitgeist, you know, I mean, what's your what's your take on the because I didn't want to ask this, but I forgot what I mean, what's your take on all the latest whistleblower stuff happening? And I mean, do you think there's a possible chance of an actual disclosure of some sort like? Has that changed for you?

2:01:13 Speaker 4: No? No, simple as that. No, they don't. Waste of time, all of them.

2:01:17 Speaker 1: Okay, Hey, I respect that. I respect that.

2:01:21 Speaker 4: Mister Hope I'm wrong, you know, I would be happy to something common poke finger up me and say you were wrong. I all my hands up. Complete waste of time. Don't don't listen to them. There's nothing I mean when you talk about disclosure. They keep saying, all the government's got this government? How the hell are you now? We've got it right? You know?

2:01:45 Speaker 1: Right?

2:01:46 Speaker 5: Right?

2:01:46 Speaker 4: I mean there, you know, I think the government, whoever the hell the government is, because I'm gonna tell you who the hell they mean? Yeah, they don't know any more than we do. Because you or I don't investigate UFOs. We investigate sightings of UFOs. So by the time we get to the wustiness, it's been and gone, and they keep talking about alien crashers and how many crashes can they be?

2:02:21 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what really never sat right with me.

2:02:25 Speaker 4: How long do you stop sending spaceships from whatever the hell they're coming from? If before you realize the crashing it If we go back to Roswell supposedly with the you know, the earliest crash, you traverse the galaxy somehow to get here, and then what do you do? You crash in the desert.

2:02:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think.

2:02:46 Speaker 4: Roswell was a balloon. I'll go on the record and I've written an article about it. And the reason I've come to that conclusion is because Marcel's Junior was the first to see the eye beams with these inscriptions on. We all think I've met Jesse's been here, lovely guy telling the truth. If you look at the wreckage of the photographs that were taken in General Ramie's office, Yeah, they were taken by a photographer called James Bond Johnson. It's a radar reflector and under the don't know if it's under the chair and on the table is the balloon because it started to go gray or brown.

2:03:27 Speaker 4: It's been in the sun for a while, right, there's a piece of something sticking out at the end, you know, something supporting. I'm pretty sure that when you look at the enhanced image, it's got one of those markings on that Marcel talks about, one of those hieroglyphs. Really, so if it's got a hieroglyphic and General Rami's office, then the jump that his father put on the office on his kitchen floor that night, it's also a balloon. Yeah,

2:04:04 Speaker 4: that's my take on it. Yeah, I said, I've just released an article of a guy who said he's seeing photographs of the aliens of as well. So I may be totally wrong. That is just my.

2:04:20 Speaker 1: But that's why I like you, Phil is your you're like and and people take take a cueue here, because I think that what we've lost is the ability to be like you and to be willing to be wrong. Actually you probably hope you're wrong in most but you're also not dense, and you're not gonna believe that everyone's channeling aliens and and you know, talking about uh crash retrievals. And I get it. I get where you're coming from, your your your skeptical skeptical believer, you.

2:05:00 Speaker 4: Know your whole it is is most UFO sightings that are reported to us have a conventional explanation.

2:05:09 Speaker 1: Yes, and I think we all know that.

2:05:12 Speaker 4: And that will be the same to the be it to the US military or whoever. That's why they keep They'll have these little grainy pieces of crap that's released and for a few few months down the line, they'll say it's a balloon, but it's an airplane because they finally got around to having a look at it. Just because it's the air force or the government doesn't necessarily mean for getting any better quality data than we are as civilians. In fact, I would say we get more data than they do. We're actively looking for it.

2:05:49 Speaker 4: And I think some civilian organizations do a pretty damn god. Some do crap, but some do a pretty damn good job.

2:05:58 Speaker 1: And I agree.

2:06:00 Speaker 4: I wondered what would happen if we had something like Pascagoula happened today, but but it involved a serving military personnel. They could be at home on leave, you know, don't have to be in uniform or anything like that.

2:06:17 Speaker 1: That's what I mean.

2:06:19 Speaker 4: Then, then what would happen.

2:06:21 Speaker 1: I think that the world would have the world would shatter.

2:06:25 Speaker 4: I keep getting all these accusations or they're not allowed to tell them, or they'll get killed. That what's his fellow from down under? All there's been people killed to keep these Who's being killed?

2:06:40 Speaker 1: Who?

2:06:41 Speaker 4: Who the hell's been murdered to keep this quiet? Surely if they'd been murdered to keep this quiet? Did a shot you? You buge for releasing it? There? The shot you first, you know, don't make any sense.

2:06:55 Speaker 1: You know, I will agree with you there and and and that's the good thing is we can live in a world where we know that ninety five percent of sightings and and encounters most likely have a prosaic explanation. But there's that last five percent. And out of that five percent, there's really like one percent.

2:07:17 Speaker 4: And I think you are the You are the first person I've heard you say they say that apart from mein Tyler. Yeah, because it's it's a lot less than five percent. We get an occasional case that comes along every now and again. You know, yes, that and that's what we're looking for.

2:07:36 Speaker 1: That's only one of them has to be one, only one.

2:07:41 Speaker 4: I think I think this one is. You know, because of everything that we've we've we've managed to come across, we found extra witnesses and extra witnesses coming in slowly mature. There are others out there. I know for a fact. Yeah, I'll show you how one last thing and I gotta go. I mentioned Chelsea Norton Prince. She runs the Ocean Springs Historical Society. She met Calvin, she bought a book, put a couple of posts on her Facebook page. One of her members, called Bethany, said, in twenty eleven, when Charlie Hixon died, my mum and dad bought his house and he had these boxes of papers in it.

2:08:28 Speaker 4: Now do you want them? You want them? She gave them to Chelsea. Chelsea knew what I was at, so she contacted me and said, do you want a copy of them, Philip, And I'll tell you what. She digitized them in rapid procession. Now there's no smoking guns in it, because these are around the nineteen nineties. However, and we'll just leave it here. There's one letter in there from a NASA physicist. His name's on it, his address on it. I checked him out. He isn't it wasn't n as a physicist. I think it's deceased now.

2:09:06 Speaker 4: But he wrote to Charlie Hickson and said, when your encounter took place, I went to my boss and asked him to investigate it. And the decline.

2:09:20 Speaker 1: Holy shit.

2:09:22 Speaker 4: So if he's telling the truth and we have no reason to suspect that he asked his boss at NASA to look into the Hixon and Parker event and they declined, would we do the same now?

2:09:35 Speaker 1: I don't know, And who knows. Maybe they declined publicly or you know, you know, they declined him, but once they knew of it, you know, maybe they started looking at it. And I can imagine something like that happening. So who knows, who really does know? That's a That's a really good place to leave it on. And I'll say that, Uh, there's more. The the pastor Goola case is, it's there's more coming. There's there is more coming. Phil, You are such a treasure man. I am so happy that that I've I've gotten to know you over the years, and uh, it's still one of my favorite guests of all time.

2:10:18 Speaker 1: I think, like I said, the your four community has owed a tremendous debt to someone like yourself. You've put so much work and time in how can people follow what is going on in Philip Mantle's world? Any any books coming out?

2:10:35 Speaker 4: Well, you've We've got the two books out now Beyond reasonable Doubt and Pascogola Uncovered. Please avail yourself of those. They follow on from each other. We have Pasco Googler seventy three, the four part documentary series out now on Amazon Prime, produced by Darcy wear and then with more to come in the future you know.

2:10:56 Speaker 1: To come, Yeah, and and you know things that are you know in more in media more. I think that are going to be more more immersive and and they're going to be able to show that you know, there's like like your your book says with the title, I think that's such a spot on title. Is beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean because I think this case, like you said, if you brought it up to a jury of our peers and presented the case in its fullest, I think the evidence suggests that, as you say, something happened on the night of October eleventh, nineteen seventy three.

2:11:36 Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely all right, Phil, the great great pleasure talking to you, Tyler.

2:11:42 Speaker 1: As always my friend you you know, and we have some talking to do. I'll email you and we'll get on the horn. For everyone else, make sure to like, share, subscribe if you're listening on one of the amazing podcast platforms, leave us a rating and a review. It really helps with the pesky algorithms. And if you want to go and support the channel further, we'll open it up now. Uh, we're kind of playing on like the asset program, you know, you can buy in an unclassified, classified, or top secret become an asset of t VP.

2:12:14 Speaker 1: All members get the same thing. It's early access and ad free versions of each show, and it's pay what you think the show is worth you. With that being said, we'll see you on the next time. We'll see you on the next time. That doesn't make sense, we'll see you next time.

2:12:31 Speaker 5: Learn to speak

2:13:12 Speaker 1: I