BOB LAZAR & Area 51: Jeremy Corbell & Joe Rogan- SPECIAL PRESENTATION

0:00 Speaker 1: Two one, boom, and we're live. First of all, cheers, gentlemen, let's have a little bit old toast. Relax. Bob, thank you very much for doing this. I really appreciate it. I understand that you've told the story many many times. You've been grilled many many times, and it's very stressful for you. So I really really appreciate your time. For people who don't know the story, there is a documentary. Jeremy Corbel has a documentary out right now. It's called Bob Lazar. Area fifty one and UFOs and Flying Saucers and Flag Saucers.

0:33 Speaker 2: These are fifty one and Flying Sky.

0:36 Speaker 1: I first heard your story decades ago. I've I told you last night we went out to dinner. I've seen pretty much every interview you've ever given. I've followed the story incredibly closely. But for people who don't know the story, let's give them the bullet points. You used to work at Area fifty one. An Area fifty one got you.

0:58 Speaker 3: You went like, well, you know, we want to be accurate. Area four S four it's about fifteen miles south of Area fifty.

1:06 Speaker 1: One, Okay, but you worked in what would you how would you describe it.

1:13 Speaker 3: I guess within the Area fifty one compound, you can call that a subset of Area fifty one.

1:20 Speaker 1: And you got that job before that, you were.

1:22 Speaker 3: Working before that. I had worked at Los Alamos National Labs in New Mexico.

1:28 Speaker 1: And you were involved in what kind.

1:30 Speaker 3: Of worked the nuclear weapon development physics. I mean that's they do everything there.

1:35 Speaker 1: So how do they approach you to say, hey, bomb once you come on out to the Nevada Desert.

1:42 Speaker 3: Well, the way this went down was, at that time, it was nineteen eighty two, I'd put a jet engine in my Honda and Los Alamos put it on the front page of the Paya said, you know, Los Alamos, man physicist at the lab. You know, built this two hundred mile an hour you know, on the jet car that I drove to work every day. So so I was known in Los Alamos the guy with the weird car. And you know you could hear it from you know, a mile away. Anyway, the day that came out on the front page of the paper was the day Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, was giving a lecture down there at the lab.

2:31 Speaker 3: And we didn't have much going on that day in our group, and I asked if I could go down there. And I went down there early and Ed Teller was outside leaning on a brick wall there and reading the front page of the paper. Now there's a guy out a history. So I introduced myself. Hey, I'm the guy you're reading about there, and we talked for a little while and it was cool.

2:56 Speaker 1: You know.

2:56 Speaker 3: Fast forward to years later. I had moved out to Las Vegas and had you know, left Los Alamos and you know, went on to other things, and I wanted to get back into the scientific community, you know, I left to start other businesses and.

3:09 Speaker 4: And that sort of thing.

3:10 Speaker 3: So I sent resumes out and one of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced our meeting, you know, back back in the of the day. And anyway, he remembered me and gave me a reference somebody to contact at EGNG. And that's pretty much how it started.

3:30 Speaker 1: So you get a phone call or a letter, like what do you get?

3:36 Speaker 3: Well, I got a what did I get? I got a letter initially and went down for an interview probably a couple times, and it was down at EG and G Special Projects, which was at McCarron airport at that time in Las Vegas.

3:51 Speaker 1: And did they give you any sort of job description of what you were applying for.

3:56 Speaker 3: They said it was for ed I can't remember exactly what they did. This was a long time ago, but I think it was advanced propulsion or something like that, something relatively generic. And they said it's in a remote area. You know, it's going to be some days on, some days off, and you know, it was kind of a it was kind of not exactly a full time job, but you might have to be out there for two weeks at a time and take two weeks off, so it was kind of a the work schedule would be kind of broken up.

4:30 Speaker 1: And did it seem attracted you or did it seem weird?

4:34 Speaker 3: No, it really wasn't weird because people that work at the test site, anybody that's familiar with the area up there, you know, working at the nuclear test site or at the Tona pot test range north of there, that's typically how things go.

4:48 Speaker 1: So you had known about it from the scientific community because the area fifty one at that time was.

4:53 Speaker 3: No they did say anything about Area fifty one, okay, So they just said it was in a you know, in a remote location and you just know up at the test site, right. So, but there was no mention of Area fifty one at that time.

5:04 Speaker 1: So they've done hundreds of nuclear tests in Nevada and Nevada that that whole area was, there's been. There's giant chunks of Nevada that people.

5:12 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a big piece of Nevada and it's split up into different areas. There's a nuclear test site, there's Area fifty one, there's the Tona pot test range north of that, there's little sub areas, there's areas where they test chemical weapons and things like that. So it's all broken up as a you know, gigantic test area.

5:28 Speaker 1: So take me back to first day on the job. You accept the job, they take you out there.

5:35 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's.

5:39 Speaker 3: The first day. Really, I didn't really get to see a whole lot. The first day was essentially just paperwork. That's when I flew into Area fifty one proper and I left McCarran Airport and flew what they call the Janet flights, just you know, a passenger plane from Las Vegas to Area fifty one. And it was really just going through a mountain of paperwork that day, from security clearances, to god, there was. It was like two or three hours of just solid paperwork, and that was That was really an uneventful first day.

6:16 Speaker 1: When did things get weird? When did you realize at what point in time did you say, hey, this is not normal work, Like this doesn't even seem like it's from this planet that.

6:33 Speaker 3: I can't tell you what day that occurred on because so much time has gone by. The days of kind of fused into one and I can't separate.

6:41 Speaker 1: Was it a slow burn or was there a moment of recognition?

6:45 Speaker 3: Well? There. The first inkling I had was when I came in. Normally there's this facility that is at S four. It's in the side of a mountain, and normally we had pulled in the bus and gone around the front through a normal double door. This time that I went in, there were hanger doors open. I went in through the hangar door, and in the hanger door was the disc the flying saucer that I worked on. I saw it sitting there and we walked by. It had a little American flag stuck on the side, and I thought, oh my god, this finally explains all the flying saucer stories.

7:23 Speaker 3: This is just an advanced fighter and this is fucking hilarious. So I went by, I slipped my hand alongside it. I got reprimanded immediately for touching the thing. And there was a guy, an armed guard that followed us in and just said keep your eyes at forward, in your hands at your side, and just walk in the door. So that was the first time I had seen anything that was weird. It was some time later that I was introduced to my lab partner, Barry, and we had some of the subcomponents of the craft in the lab and Barry was very anxious to get a new lab partner, so he was very talkative and couldn't wait to show me different things.

8:05 Speaker 3: And it was in the demonstration of the reactor working where it caught my attention to where this is technology that doesn't even exist. So, I mean, that was the first time I knew that this is really something different.

8:22 Speaker 1: What was it? What was what was it about this reactor that made you think that it didn't exist technologically?

8:33 Speaker 3: Well, it was the I actually have to back up, because there were some briefings that I read it before that that, you know, certainly gave me the impression that this was going to be a weird job. But this was the first hands on thing. This was a small reactor about the size of a hemisphere, about the size of a basketball, on a metal plate, and when it was running, it produced a gravitational field, a gravitational field of its own. Now, this is something that we can't do. We can't produce any gravity.

9:03 Speaker 3: The only way we get gravity is from large quantities of mass. But there's no machine we can have that turns on that makes gravity. Like you know, you can turn on an electromagnet and it makes a magnetic field. We can't make a gravitational field. Anyway. This device was producing that, and Barry said, almost like he was bragging, go ahead, try and try and touch the sphere and I couldn't. It pushed my hands away, just like two light poles of a magnet.

9:30 Speaker 1: So that was, uh so like when you take two magnets and trying to press them together and there yeahs each other.

9:34 Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of cushioned feeling, but you can't. You can't get them together. The closer you put them, the more they push.

9:40 Speaker 1: But you felt that physically with my hand.

9:41 Speaker 3: Yeah, Now there's nothing. There's nothing that does that. And that immediately caught my attention, going wow, this is something else.

9:49 Speaker 1: What was your thought like when you felt that and you knew that there was nothing that you were aware of that could produce.

9:55 Speaker 3: Then that connected me to the briefings that I read on the the first day at S four was that you know, everything that I had read was apparently accurate and what were you reading? I right, it was kind of an overview. This project was to back engineer the alien craft, and specifically it was to try and back engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials. Now, to do this, they split the project into you know, many different pieces for several reasons. They do this in all classified projects, so nobody has the complete story, but they compartmentalize everything.

10:40 Speaker 3: Now, we had the power and propulsion system, so what the briefings they gave me were like a one or two page overview of some of the other projects that were going on, you know, on the craft. The only reason they do that is just in case what you're working on is connected intimately in some way that we don't know if to one of the other projects. You have to know they're excuse me, there existence, So you know, I again, everything from metallurgy, to you know, weapon potential of the craft, and these were all, you know, essentially very short briefings.

11:15 Speaker 3: But mine was just power and propulsion, and it made it very clear that what I read was accurate.

11:23 Speaker 1: So when you're reading that before you actually saw the reactor, what were your thoughts on what they were describing. If you knew that something like that didn't exist and they're describing it in the briefings, what did you think you were going to see?

11:40 Speaker 3: I really I didn't know at the time. I mean I was reading, I thought, is this is some.

11:44 Speaker 1: Kind of test, see if you're crazy, well, not.

11:48 Speaker 3: To see if I'm crazy to you know, a lot of times they'll take in real high security jobs. I mean they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them, whether it's to confuse the fact or if for someone was to leak it out, they would carry that information along and know where it came from. So I read through the documents, but you know, I didn't know if this was you know, part of some kind of test or you know, or what, or was it potentially realistic. I mean I really didn't consider it being all that possible as far as being the actual thing that I was going.

12:27 Speaker 4: To work on at the time.

12:28 Speaker 1: How did they turn.

12:29 Speaker 3: It on the reactor? Yeah, the reactor could be turned on or turned off in a lot of different ways. The way Barry showed me, the hemisphere is removed. There's a small tower in the middle. When you put the hemisphere on, the reactor activates. The reactor shuts down. It's load sensing, so if there's if there's no load on the reactor at all, it shuts down. When there's a load present on it, it starts up again. Load meaning you can consider it an electrical load. So although it doesn't necessarily operate electrically, there's no wiring that connects any of the subcomponents together whatsoever.

13:10 Speaker 3: They just have to be in the immediate vicinity. It's a it is, but the stuff is borderline magic and that's essentially where we left it, you know when I left the project.

13:23 Speaker 1: So there was no progress made.

13:25 Speaker 3: There was some progress, I mean, we did identify at least we think some processes and had a rough idea we think of what was going on. But I think this is a problem that they've had for a long time. And you know, I was replacing somebody that Barry worked with prior to me, and I think there was some horrific accident that I didn't have a whole lot of information on, but you know, Barry alluded to.

13:52 Speaker 1: That, a horrific accident like where someone.

13:55 Speaker 3: Died or yeah, where somebody died.

13:57 Speaker 1: Because they were trying to tamper with things or figure out how something worked.

14:01 Speaker 3: Yeah, the reactor in particular, but yet he let you touch it. Yeah. I think what they were trying to do was cut into one. Now they had they had more than one there, and that was supposedly there was an unannounced nuclear test, and that's what it was at the time. I remember they were still doing an underground nuclear test at the test site. But from what I understand, according to Barry, there was an attempt made. Now, this must have been a pretty desperate attent because it's not a very scientific process to cut, you know, analyze something that way.

14:33 Speaker 3: But it looked like they used a plasma cutter or something. I got to cut into an operating reactor.

14:39 Speaker 1: How many of these things did they have?

14:41 Speaker 3: They had nine, nine craft altogether. I only got hands on with one of them, so I can't really say what the how the others operated.

14:50 Speaker 1: Did you see the other ones.

14:51 Speaker 3: Yeah, at one time, and only one time, the bay doors that between the hangars were all open and I could see all the way through.

15:00 Speaker 1: When were they all exactly the same?

15:02 Speaker 3: No, they were all different, different shapes.

15:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, but they were all from somewhere else. Yeah.

15:08 Speaker 4: Absolutely.

15:09 Speaker 1: Now did anyone make any attempt to explain or to tell you where they came from?

15:17 Speaker 3: No, no, no one is the least bit interested in letting everybody know all the facts. They want to give you the minimum information that's necessary to complete your task. So you're not getting the story of where they came from. You're not getting the story of how much progress other people are making. You just focus on the small component.

15:36 Speaker 1: But they gave you some indication that they've been working on these for a while. Yeah, when do you think they acquired these?

15:45 Speaker 3: I really couldn't say. I think they've been around for a while.

15:50 Speaker 1: So they bring you into this room, You see this reactor working. You realize this is nothing that as far as like the scientific community at current time has the ability to create, we still don't. What is your life like from that moment on? Is that where everything changes? Because you do you? I mean, I would imagine the moment you actually make contact was something that's extraterrestrial, whether it's an object or a being, something where you can actually absolutely be certain it's not from here.

16:23 Speaker 1: Your whole paradigm, the whole world you live in is now a different place.

16:28 Speaker 3: Well, this is the only time it became exciting. You know, the rest of the time it was really an ominous feeling being at work. But at that time it was exciting. I mean, this was now I knew we were on the absolute beyond, actually beyond the cutting edge of science, and I was I was so absolutely excited to be there. Every single time I was, you know, this was a fantastic opportunity. And however, in short order it began to concern me. We really have no idea what we're talking about, and the excitement kind of turned to dread at some point because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical.

17:19 Speaker 3: I mean, to affect gravity, to produce the effects like this equipment does, takes huge amounts of power. And I've given the example before of you know, taking a small portable nuclear reactor and you know, putting it back into Victorian times, you know, with the scientists of the time and just dropping it in a room and they come and look at it and see that it's producing power and wonder how it works. That they start taking it apart, and as soon as they get some of the shielding off, the people are going to drop dead because of the radiation inside.

17:53 Speaker 3: Now people have no idea that radiation even exists back then, but anybody that comes into to check on him will also drop dead. And you know, there's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what we're dealing with. We have no idea how the physics operate within this thing. The power levels are are, like I said, astronomical, Like it's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that.

18:21 Speaker 4: And you know, in.

18:22 Speaker 3: Some respects we were guinea pigs just try to find out how to make this thing.

18:26 Speaker 1: So they had had a series, as far as you're surmised, they had a series of different scientists try to back engineer this thing, try to figure out what this thing was. And they would bring in new people and like, let's throw Bob at it.

18:38 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and they I don't know how many, but I knew there was certainly one before me, and I knew he died during the analysis.

18:46 Speaker 4: Of the or the reactor itself, and.

18:51 Speaker 1: You don't know how many have worked on it and no one gave it.

18:55 Speaker 3: This could have been there for fifty years, It could have been there for five years.

19:00 Speaker 1: Instructions, what are they saying, like when they're giving you direction, they're showing you all this stuff, like, what what are they saying specifically? What are they asking of you?

19:08 Speaker 3: Well, essentially what they ask is what I said. We are just together as much information as possible, find out how it operates, and see if we can duplicate it.

19:16 Speaker 1: So but the you where it was from, They never let you ask questions about where it's from.

19:22 Speaker 3: Well, if the information I read in the briefings was accurate. Now what I do have to say is the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate.

19:34 Speaker 4: What I read.

19:37 Speaker 3: Did, I mean, did jive with reality in terms of how in terms of how it was made, how what we saw, how it operated, the materials, how it you know, turned on, and.

19:50 Speaker 4: What was discovered discovered about it.

19:54 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, the migraine is really making it hard for me to think care.

19:57 Speaker 1: Sorry, No, we talked that before the podcast. You tell her buddy Bob was getting a migraine. I know you're very stressed out by this, which is one of the reasons why I appreciate you doing this.

20:07 Speaker 3: Where was I already we're talking about, right, and so there was some paperwork that indicated that this was from the Zeta Reticularly star system. Now, yeah, now how they obtained that, haven't I haven't the slightest idea. But it wasn't just from the Zeta Reticularly star system. It was what they called ZR three, so it was a third planet in that star system. So there was no other information about it other than that's supposedly where the craft came from. Now is that true?

20:41 Speaker 4: I don't know.

20:42 Speaker 3: I have no way of verifying that. But that was printed in the same materials that reference the reactor. Now I looked that stuff up when I went home, and Zaeta Reticularly is a binary star, two stars at orbit orbit one another, and it's only visible in the southern hemisphere and it's about thirty mod light years away. So that's literally all the information I have about that. I don't know how they found out it came from there.

21:07 Speaker 1: And you also probably have some suspicions that they give you some disinformation, like you were talking about before where they were yeah, yeah too. I mean, if you ever decided to talk about this, they added a bunch of nonsense to make whatever is factual look ridiculous.

21:22 Speaker 3: Right, or be able to trace it down. They go, hey, this facts came out and you know this Lazar guy said it, you know, came from Zata Reticularly, so they knew it was.

21:30 Speaker 1: When we read Zeta Reticularly, We're like, what in the fuck is this?

21:35 Speaker 3: Well, reading all of this stuff, it was, what the.

21:38 Speaker 4: Fuck is this?

21:38 Speaker 1: You're like, why did I sign up for this?

21:40 Speaker 3: No, no, it would to me.

21:42 Speaker 4: This was cool. This was interesting.

21:43 Speaker 3: I said, I was just excited to be out in a secure area, you know, in the middle of the desert. I said, this is awesome. How old are you time I get as in my twenties.

21:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're probably totally geeked out.

21:55 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, this was this was great. I mean I was excited, so I didn't care. I'm reading through everything, and.

22:02 Speaker 1: So you read through all the Zata Reticular thing. But then when you see the actual starship with the little American flagsticker on it, well that was was that later or before.

22:13 Speaker 3: That?

22:14 Speaker 4: That was before?

22:16 Speaker 1: So before so you see the thing before and you say, oh, before it hard so many years. Yeah, I can't either way, it doesn't matter.

22:24 Speaker 3: The days have fused together. It's so hard to separate what happened in each visit.

22:28 Speaker 1: Do you remember the thought process when you read that it's from Zeta reticuli, Yeah, it it.

22:33 Speaker 3: It didn't hit me like a ton of bricks or anything. It's it's like, yeah, okay, he was bullshit.

22:39 Speaker 1: I don't know now.

22:41 Speaker 3: I don't. I mean because when I read it, I hadn't verified anything, and this was just a bunch of stuff I was reading, and I thought, maybe after this, they're just going to give me a test and see what I can remember in crazy information, and then it would But like I said, when I finally went in with Barry and had hands on experience with what they were talking about, it gone a completely different meaning.

23:08 Speaker 1: So there's a plate, there's this thing that looks like half of basketball and when it's on, you can't come anywhere near it, you can't touch it. Right, How is what is gravity about that? Like the concept of gravity to most people's, gravity is bringing something.

23:22 Speaker 3: Towards it, right, Well, I guess you would say it's anti gravity. It's gravity shifted one hundred and eighty degrees. It's a you know, anti gravity.

23:31 Speaker 1: And did they have any understanding about what could possibly create this effect? Did they have any areas where they'd like you to look into.

23:42 Speaker 3: No, they well, they knew there was a fuel source in it, and they were proficient at making it work. And again, my analogy to something like this is you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside somebody's place. Everybody'll come around it and they'll poke and prod and eventually they'll turn the key, get it to start, and become proficient at writing it. Yeah, but they won't be able to understand what the hell's going on. They won't be able to make the plastic fender, much less anything else.

24:19 Speaker 3: And I think that's exactly the state we were at. We played around with the parts long enough before I got there where they could make the reactor operate, take the fuel out, and know that it makes it work. How exactly what was going on in the reactor remained a mystery at the time. I think we made some progress on what was going on inside, but I don't think anybody really knew anything. They could just watch what was going on and make note of it. How long were you there, I'd say about six months or so.

24:54 Speaker 1: And what progress was made while you were there?

24:57 Speaker 3: Well, we came up with a bunch of reasonably good ideas about how the reactor worked, and one of them was the base. The square base of it was essentially like a cyclotron, which is a small particle accelerator a circular one. Particle accelerators or linear particle accelerators are just you know, long tube essentially, and they accelerate particles with high voltagen you know, radio frequencies till they reach high speeds. But a cyclotron does that in a small circular area. And there's this very heavy element fuel element one point fifteen something that wasn't on our periodic charts at the time, but it is now it is now.

25:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, when did it become on the periodic table? Now?

25:42 Speaker 3: The way the charts now, you know, I don't remember. Do you remember when they.

25:46 Speaker 2: Two thousand and four dermstat Germany, I think is where they first fabricated four atoms. They lasted two hundred twenty milliseconds with the atoms. It's nothing right and then it later was discovered a couple more times. They could fabricate it. Then they gave it. They gave it a place then on the periodic chart after that called it Moscovian.

26:04 Speaker 1: So they told you about this stuff in nineteen eighty two.

26:10 Speaker 3: Yeah, well.

26:12 Speaker 1: What year was this?

26:13 Speaker 3: It was eighty eight and eighty nine when I was there, eighty two when you lost Alamos.

26:18 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Yeah, so eighty eighty nine they told you about this stuff. So this was not like, no, they didn't. They didn't tell me about it. That's one of the things that this group came up with. The God I keep losing my train of thought with this thing. So this one area, this this element one fifteen was the fuel.

26:40 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was the fuel.

26:51 Speaker 2: The world will forgive you for having a migrant, can

26:56 Speaker 2: give you more, baksh I say, what yeah, definitely. As I say, one thing, you know, for the last thirty years, people have just been on the attack on Bob, you know, getting to know him, the personal effects on his life. It's really hard to understand unless you meet his family and his wife. I mean, this is the last thing he wanted to fucking do was have to talk.

27:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, we should explain that Jeremy, you and I had this conversation. I watched your documentary. We had this conversation, and I said, I have to talk to him. Yeah, the document there was there's been detractors. There's been a bunch of people that called bullshit on many of the things that you've said. But over time, many of the things that you talked about, even in the eighties have proven to be true. Things that people said were not true were proven to be true. Element one fifteen was one of them, right.

27:45 Speaker 3: Right, right?

27:46 Speaker 1: Uh.

27:46 Speaker 3: Element one fifteen, the fuel they had was stable. In other words, it didn't decay, it wasn't emitting radioactivity. When they synthesized the two or three atoms of the one fifteen, it did decay and it was not a stable element. So they're kind of two different things. But this is kind of typical. Elements always have or pretty much always have stable isotopes and unstable isotopes, like I think caesium has like thirty unstable isotopes to it. So well, hydrogen, for example, you're familiar with hydrogen gas.

28:22 Speaker 3: It's stable, it's not radioactive, but there's also two other types of hydrogen, deuterium and tritium, and deuterium isn't radioactive. It's another stable isotope, hydrogen, but tritium is radioactive. Now they're all hydrogen, but they just have different amounts of neutrons. So it's the same thing with other elements and element one fifteen, depending on the amount of neutrons it has, designates the isotope, but it's one fifteen. They will continue to take or experiment and try and make one fifteen at different isotopes, and I'm sure eventually they'll come up with a stable version.

29:02 Speaker 3: But it's the stable version that has the properties that we're talking about.

29:06 Speaker 1: So they somehow or another had acquired a stable version. Did they say that the stable version had come with this craft?

29:12 Speaker 4: It absolutely came with the graft.

29:14 Speaker 3: Yeah.

29:14 Speaker 1: So at the time, you having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what wasn't real, what was your reaction to having this stable element one point fifteen that wasn't even supposed to exist.

29:27 Speaker 3: Well, everything was impossible, right, I mean down to the metal. I did get a chance to look inside the craft on only one occasion, and this was important because where the reactors sat might have been critical to how it operated, since everything operates without any interconnection, so the placement of components might be critical. So they allowed me to go inside and look at it again.

29:56 Speaker 4: I forgot where the hell I am.

29:58 Speaker 1: So you're going into this craft? And what are you thinking when you're inside of it? Like, what are you seeing?

30:04 Speaker 3: It's a very ominous feeling because it's there are no First of all, everything is one color. It's like a dark pewter color, and there are no right angles anywhere. It's as if somebody took I've said this before, somebody took a model out of and fashioned it out of wax and then heated it just for a short time, so everything melted. Everything looks like it's fused together. Everything is a radius of curvature where two items meet. It's a really weird looking thing, but there was almost nothing other than a small foldable hatchway that that looked recognizable.

30:50 Speaker 3: Everything was was really unworldy to pick on it a way to describe it.

30:57 Speaker 1: So you get inside this thing and it's designed for something that's much smaller than a human being.

31:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't really stand up till you get to the very center of it.

31:05 Speaker 1: And I'll tall you. I'm five ten and what do you think this was designed for?

31:10 Speaker 3: I'd say something close to half my height.

31:12 Speaker 1: Wow, So these little three foot tallish creatures.

31:17 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the seats were small too, I mean obviously it was made, you know, for something something small. But there is no like, there's there's nothing else in there. There's just seats, the reactor and some of the subcomponents. There's no there's no control panels, there's no bathroom, there's no no decorative components or artwork or anything that you would recognize or trim. I mean, it's just a very bare bones thing.

31:44 Speaker 1: You're not seeing any screens.

31:47 Speaker 3: Well, there are archways around it that are part of the superstructure, and that one of the archways can become transparent. When I was in there, there was another group working on one of the archways, and you could call that a screen more or less.

32:05 Speaker 1: So through that archway it would be it would maintain the solidity, the solid whatever metal it was.

32:13 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you could see it just became transparent.

32:16 Speaker 4: Yeah.

32:16 Speaker 3: I saw that happen once or twice before I left.

32:19 Speaker 1: Did you ask any questions about what the fund?

32:21 Speaker 3: No, there's no asking.

32:22 Speaker 1: There's no asking questions. Now, but when you watch something become transparent and you realize it's still there but you can now see through it.

32:29 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, now that's not that impressive. We do have some liquid crystal materials that are like that. You know they have smart glass.

32:37 Speaker 4: Yeah, they call it smart class.

32:39 Speaker 3: So this is just and I don't know if the craft is made of, you know, an advanced metal or a ceramic. It was cold to the chuch, so you know, I would lean more.

32:49 Speaker 4: Towards a metal.

32:50 Speaker 1: You're not allowed to ask questions, no.

32:52 Speaker 3: The only they work on the buddy system, so I can only exchange ideas and talk to Barry. Now this really interferes with science because science is based on free discussion and ideally you get a bunch of guys together, exchange ideas, work on problems, and that's how things move forward. But they're still over the top concerned about security. They split everything off and everybody becomes stagnant. It just destroys any of the progress you can make, or at least makes it go so slow. I think they wind up shooting themselves in the foot.

33:29 Speaker 1: Which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that they needed to get this madman with a jet powered Honda come in and see what he could do.

33:38 Speaker 3: I think that was an act of desperation. I think they wanted someone that thinks out of the box and let's just give this guy a try here, because they weren't, and they might have done this four more times since, you know, up to the point in time today, assuming they're still working on this thing.

33:54 Speaker 1: And when you see this craft and you're inside, was there any indication that there was an area that they would use to control it to pilot? Was there a pilot seat?

34:07 Speaker 3: There were three seats they sat around the reactor was in the dead center of it, and then equidistant around there were three seats and that's all. There was a large you would they're not consoles. There are large rectangular objects also spaced equidistant around the center. There's nothing on them, there's no buttons, there's no lights, The control everything is the same. And directly underneath them, there's three levels in the craft. The main level is that we're talking about. Directly under that, those are the gravity amplifiers.

34:46 Speaker 3: The big rectangular objects underneath them are the gravity emitters that look like, for lack of a better word, a trash can hanging on a pipe. Three of those and then the top layer. This is just my personal belief if I think that has to do with a navigation or their version of a computer with some planar panels sensor panels around the craft that we would call portholes, but they're not portholes.

35:12 Speaker 4: They're just black areas.

35:14 Speaker 3: And I think that just determines it's you know, position in space. But I was, I physically was in the center section and I stuck my torso in the bottom section and hung upside down so I could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned.

35:30 Speaker 1: What is they? Roughly? The size of this thing?

35:32 Speaker 3: It's I think it. I don't remember from being there. But after all this stuff was over, I had John Andrews, a guy from the Testers Model Corporation, and you know, we sat down and tried to figure out from what I saw and known sizes of things, and we came up with fifty two feet in diameter. So I think that's yeah.

35:56 Speaker 4: So I think that's a fair reasonable guess.

36:00 Speaker 1: There's nine of them, and you got a brief glimpse at the other ones. How are they different?

36:05 Speaker 3: Oh? They looked completely different. One looked like I called a jello mold, and it looked like a classic jello mold with the rippled sides to it. One was a very flat disc, you know, like uh oh, I don't know, like a straw hat or something like that, that was sitting up on its edge and the thin part of it had it looked like a projectile had been fired through the edge of it. So I don't know if they were attempting to see if the metal could be penetrated or if something or if that's where the thing came from.

36:39 Speaker 3: Maybe it was shot down, But that was the only one where I saw there was, you know, actual physical damage to it.

36:46 Speaker 1: And that one was roughly the same size.

36:49 Speaker 4: They're all, ah, they were kind of too far away to tell.

36:53 Speaker 1: And did there was several teams that were working on the propulsion system, so there was different teams that were working on these different aircrafts. I don't don't know.

37:02 Speaker 4: I could only assume.

37:05 Speaker 1: Now, when you're sitting in this thing and you're looking at this otherworldly craft, your goals to try to figure out how this thing functions. Your goals to try to figure out how this reactor. I mean, he would imagine they would give you more time than just one day to check that out.

37:24 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it wasn't one day, right, Yeah, I mean this is Barry was there. I think Barry was sleeping there. I'm sure they had. Now that that isn't weird. I mean, oh, but the tone of pot test range where they work on stealth fighters. You know, you go, I think three weeks on, one week off, and you stay up there too, So it's not weird to stay up with the test site. So yeah, I think he pretty with it, and he acted like he's been up there for a long time.

37:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, but still there.

37:53 Speaker 4: Yeah, who knows you?

37:55 Speaker 1: Do you have contact with this guy? No?

37:57 Speaker 3: Oh no, I wish I did. I kind of thought he was going to come out after I did, and I think I took so much flak and it's so much shit for what went on. I think actually I wound up helping security there and everybody became afraid of, you know, doing or saying anything after that.

38:17 Speaker 1: So what kind of reports did you have to give? Like, so you're not making much progress, right, You're just trying to figure out what this thing is and it seems impossible.

38:25 Speaker 3: So well, we didn't personally make them. I mean we were always there was never a lot of information that we gained. The guy you would call him our supervisor. His name was Dennis Marianni and kind of a military looking guy, and he would routinely pop in, you know, during the day and you know, hey, what's going on, guys, and he would essentially relay enter any information, anything new we came up with. I mean, he was our go between where we presented him the information, then he took it to wherever they were assembling all the data from everybody.

39:02 Speaker 1: Now, I assume you're working normal days, like an eight hour day.

39:05 Speaker 3: No, no, no, it was really weird that I would be only called in on certain times in certain days, and they would be weird hours too. Most of the time was later in the evening. I mean, I can get a call at eleven o'clock at night and they'll say, you know, it's now eleven o'clock. By eleven forty five, you need to be at mccaren.

39:26 Speaker 4: Terminal and you know, we'll let you know when we have more information.

39:32 Speaker 1: But what did you do while you were there? If you're looking at this object, this reactor, and you can't figure out what it is or how it works, other than the fact that it works on this element that we don't even know about.

39:46 Speaker 3: Sure, I mean the thing was to what you do. And you know, with anything, if you're trying to analyze it, all you can do is perform tests. And all we did is try and come up with every kind of test we possibly could. I mean, we tested, you know it. It violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate. I mean, one of the first laws of thermodynamics. I mean essentially, any machine, any device that operates, always makes extra heat. Nothing works at one hundred percent efficient, even the headphones you're wearing.

40:21 Speaker 3: Anything that takes power, some of that power is going to be converted to heat and it's just wasted. This didn't I mean, we looked at back then we had infrared cameras. They're different today, but back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the sensor down and get these infrared images you've seen. But it never got no matter what the load was on the reactor, it never got above ambient temperature, which is impossible. I mean you're, you know, pulling out huge amounts of power and nothing ever gets warm.

40:57 Speaker 3: We tried measuring magnetic fields and was nothing there. So we started playing around with the emission from the emitters, the gravity way of itself, and saw what we could do with it and how it was focused. So we really spent all our time just trying to see what the stuff can do and what we can control.

41:19 Speaker 1: So you were seeing what it could do when you couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it.

41:24 Speaker 3: No, not really, I mean we really could only use a come up with the best guess. Now, I can't say we really that I could absolutely state for certainly or certainty how anything actually worked.

41:40 Speaker 1: Now, how did you know at all how they were piloting it? Because some they were doing some tests where they were having these things fly around in the sky. And this is what gets us deeper into your story.

41:57 Speaker 3: Right, I was out there for one test. Right, In fact, I was in with Barry in the lab and Dennis came in and said, we're about to run the test. Why don't you guys come out, or I think he said, Barry, why don't you come out here and bring Bob with you. We went out there and the craft was already outside the hangar and was just preparing to lift off. Now they were in communication with somebody in the craft.

42:30 Speaker 1: So there's a person in the crowd.

42:32 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was certainly a person in there. Now, it's not a comfortable place to be in because it's small, so the guy has to be sitting on the floor in the middle.

42:41 Speaker 1: My best guest, and this is the same specific craft that you were at, was because you were That was the only craft that you were in.

42:47 Speaker 3: The only one that I touched and worked on. And it it quietly lifted off the ground, which was incredibly impressive to.

42:55 Speaker 1: See quietly or silently what well.

43:00 Speaker 3: Quietly, because it did produced It produced a little corona discharge from the bottom. A corona discharge is kind of a high voltage brush, little bluish glow discharge. As it was lifting off the ground, you could hear a slight hiss sound. Now, as soon as it cleared the ground by about five or ten feet, maybe even less than that, the hissing stopped and the blue god disappeared. So it lifted off quietly and then it hovered.

43:27 Speaker 4: Silently, if you want to be specific.

43:29 Speaker 1: Wow, So then what kind of maneuvers was it doing?

43:33 Speaker 3: It took for that particular time, it took off, moved a little round around to the left and right and then sat back down the craft itself. They communicated with it with a reg because I saw the guy talking in a regular VHF radio to the person in the craft, and I even saw the frequency that was on the the frequency counter or the communication the transceiver there. But what's weird is he shouldn't be able to communicate with the craft with a radio. The radio the radio wave should bend around the craft.

44:15 Speaker 3: I mean, it shouldn't be possible. Every single thing about these the craft and the way they operated didn't make any sense to us. I mean that's something we talked about for a while after.

44:27 Speaker 1: Why should the frequency bend around the craft?

44:30 Speaker 3: Well, you really have to look at the way the gravity wave comes out of the craft. There's the reactors in the center, and there's a waveguide that goes up to the top. There's actually a small appendage that sticks out at the top of the craft and it produces a heart shaped gravitational distortion around the craft. Now, if the craft is sitting in the air and you walk underneath it and look up, you actually cannot see the craft. The light bends around it. You're bending. Gravity bends light, it bends radio waves.

45:02 Speaker 3: It shouldn't be possible to communicate with a craft that has an envelope around it that's distorting all forms of energy. But they were apparently in contact.

45:14 Speaker 1: With it somehow or another, through some unexplained way that they didn't bother explaining to you. So this thing gets up, it just does some very simple maneuvers left right, left, right, goes down. And did they discuss this with you? I mean they said they wanted you to see it.

45:30 Speaker 3: No, they just wanted No, they didn't discuss anything with me. It sat down. We looked around for a bit and Barry said, let's go back. We went back in the lab. All we got to do is see it. Fast forward two some months later, I did have the test flight schedule of the craft. Now they had times they had designated high performance tests. This obviously wasn't one that was a high performance test. The high performance goes above the mountain range and they do much more radical moves with the thing. Look, this is a prized item, and they're not doing anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying around to other countries or anything like that.

46:13 Speaker 3: They just play with this thing right over the test site. But they were doing some radical moves with it. And since I had the test flight schedule, statistically the amount of traffic and the surrounding areas on the highway was lowest on Wednesdays. And that's why Dennis told us that all the test flights occurred only on Wednesdays because it'd be the least chance that anyone would see what's going on.

46:41 Speaker 1: And this was before the government had expanded the forbidden territory around Area fifty one and Papoose Lake and all that stuff.

46:50 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I think that occurred after my story came out. Then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying to look down into there, and they kind of freaked out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back. But yeah, that I think all that occurred long after. I'm great that I came out.

47:10 Speaker 1: So you're working there, and while you're working there, you're under this crazy schedule. Forgive me for explaining your story, but you would get these phone calls, you would have to go to the to the airport at eleven PM, and your wife started thinking that you were having an affair.

47:31 Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently, so now I did give my permission to have you know, as part of the you know, security clearance process. I gave written permission to have the phones monitored and things of that sort, so they weren't doing any covert stuff. They you know, with any Q clearance, which is civilian top secret clearance or military top secret clearance, they go talk to friends and you know, places you've been, make sure you're not connected to foreign countries. But you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual.

48:06 Speaker 3: However, they insisted that you know, you don't even talk to your loved one, to your partner, to your wife, whatever about what's going on. So she was essentially in the dark and didn't know the phone was being monitored. Well, part of the security clearance is that not only do you not have any connections to foreign countries and are in a maniac, but you have to have a stable home life too. Well, she started having an affair with a flight instructor. Now they were monitoring this on the phone and they knew it and I didn't, So they stopped me coming in.

48:42 Speaker 3: And their attitude at the time was, we need to see how this is going to play out and if Lazar is going to get a little weird or anything. So let's just you know, hold them off from coming in and you know, see what happens.

48:58 Speaker 1: And they explain this to you what was happening.

49:00 Speaker 3: Well after the fact. Yeah, because time kind of went on and there were guys that were following me around, and I started getting a little concerned, going, well, chit are they booting me out of the project, And if so, they're not just going to let me hang out at home and go get a new job.

49:19 Speaker 4: Knowing what I know.

49:21 Speaker 3: So as time went on, I started getting a little concerned, and I took my closest friends and just kind of got together and I said, hey, remember that job I told you about. This is what's going on, and like, you don't need to take my word for it. Wednesday night, we need to all go out here. I want to show you what's going on. So I took everybody and we went out to remember since I had the test flight schedule, and went outside the base out into the desert, and so everybody could see, you know, one of the high performance tests, and you know, it left quite an imprint on everybody, so they knew I wasn't and.

50:01 Speaker 1: There's videos of these tests, right.

50:03 Speaker 3: Yeah, but remember this is in the it's in in the dark in the eighties of the big monster sized camcorder and you've got, you know, a bright light jumping around. But yeah, I mean we did video of it, but there's no by today's standards.

50:16 Speaker 1: It's but is your video specifically available, the video that you.

50:20 Speaker 3: Took, Yeah, well, George Knapp has it is?

50:24 Speaker 4: I have no idea.

50:25 Speaker 2: Jeremy, Yeah, I show clips of it in my film. It's it's online and someone did a deep analysis of it. It was interesting to take a look at how.

50:33 Speaker 1: Well this microphone on two face from your face.

50:37 Speaker 2: You know, to see how his video looks now. But as far as video evidence, I mean, we are talking eighties campos, and the most important thing is the human story here. Everybody that he took up there on three separate occasions, they don't all like each other, they don't all talk. They all agree on one thing. They saw something that night at the exact point in time and space that Bob Azar said, And remember this is seventeen fifteen. To him, I was south of area fifty one. No one even knew really about area fifty one.

51:03 Speaker 2: We're talking Pappoos Lake. And they all agree they saw something that night they had never seen before. And they've never seen since right when he said it. So that's one of like the six things where I'm like, how did he know? You can dismiss him. I tried to dismiss it, but some things we can't get around, and there's about five or six of them. How did he know about this?

51:22 Speaker 1: If Jamie wants to find that video right now, what would he look under?

51:25 Speaker 2: Bob Bazaar UFO S four Area fifty one just kind of like that. So it's like the S for UFO video Bob Blazaar and a guy does an analysis, but you're analyzing these eighties videos from the very beginning. Bob never said I have proof of my story and I'm gonna tell the world. He said at the very beginning, I cannot prove my story. That's not why I'm telling this. George Knapp convinced him to tell people, and he lived through it, and I didn't believe it either until I talked with George.

51:59 Speaker 1: Okay, so you film these this test flight, one test fight, and then you get caught.

52:06 Speaker 3: Actually it was I think the third time because we went out there the first time. Everybody saw it. Everybody was amazed because it did some radical maneuvers and you know, everybody had a.

52:20 Speaker 1: Lot maneuvers that I've seen. I've seen the video. It doesn't I don't think there's something we have now that does that. No, in terms of like a human piloted craft, and I don't know obviously with the government.

52:31 Speaker 3: No, it's it's impossible. Nothing can move like that. And remember we didn't start filming from the very beginning, you know, we were waiting for something, you know, to happen. The craft took off and it came flying at us, stopped, you know, turned at a riangle, flew back, and then you know after it did some you know, amazing stuff to get the camera, and then we started filming. So it doesn't have all of it on there, it just has some the.

52:55 Speaker 1: Way I describe it to my friends, and they said, what is like, I said, take a laser pointer and then have a wall, and then move it around the wall like you know, how it moves around the wall. It doesn't seem like it has anything to do with inertia or physics or it's not impeded in any way by the atmosphere. Yeah, that's what it looked like.

53:11 Speaker 3: You're essentially separated from reality. As crazy as that sounds with being in case it's own gravitational envelope, inertia is not going to affect it.

53:22 Speaker 4: And you know this is.

53:25 Speaker 3: This is how some of those recent sightings are. Commander David Fraverer, I'm sure you've heard of the tikback UFO. I mean, he describes exactly that the thing operates exactly the way I was describing. That's why he was interested to talk to me. But we saw this, and you know, on the way home, it's like, hey, we got away with it. We should try it again the next test flight date. So this became a thing to do. And I think it was on the third time that we got caught. I mean we started becoming a little careless.

53:58 Speaker 3: I think we took a motor home them out there, you know, I mean it was like the stupidest thing you could tailgating. Yeah, it was ridiculous.

54:07 Speaker 1: And again you're in your twenties.

54:09 Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know what was funny was.

54:13 Speaker 3: We went out there and my friend Geene Huff and I were leaning on the front of a vehicle and just for some reason we just started talking hit like, well, I hope they realized that I don't remember what we're saying, but you know that something about attacking the base or something along those lines and stealing the craft or something like that. And then about twenty feet in front of us, we see a little green light fall on the ground and roll to us, and unbeknownst to us, now it's pitch black. You can't see your hand in front of your face.

54:52 Speaker 3: There were a bunch of guards standing right out there and they had a night vision scope where they were like from here to the wall, looking at us, listening to us, and the guy dropped it and the scope rolled over to us and you could see the green screen.

55:04 Speaker 1: You know.

55:04 Speaker 3: We turned the lights on and all these guys are there, so it was uh, whoa, yeah. Yeah, So we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught, as we should have, because.

55:13 Speaker 1: So when they catch you and they bring you in, then what happens.

55:16 Speaker 3: Well I went in for debriefing the following day. I went to Indian Spring's Air Force Base, which is kind of a defunct base that they used to use at the nuclear test site. And this is when they brought out the transcript of the phone call with my wife, and you know, they sat me down and we said, you know, when we meant to keep the secret. We meant you can't tell your friends, right, you know, and it just being sarcastic and China, and then they got real serious. But this is where they you know, took the transcript out and were reading me what my wife and you know, our friend and we're talking about.

56:01 Speaker 4: And it was a hard time.

56:04 Speaker 1: So what happens from there? What do they do with you? Why don't they arrest you?

56:10 Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know why. I'm not sure they exactly they knew what to do, but they did let me go that night and I went home and that this is kind of when the most stressful part started.

56:24 Speaker 1: Because you're realizing that you're being monitored.

56:26 Speaker 3: Yeah now, so yeah, now I know. Not only am I being monitored, but now I know I'm in trouble. And it wasn't a short time after that that I contacted you know, at that time, the only investigative reporter I had heard of in Las Vegas was George Knapp, and you know, told him some of the story because I had no idea what the hell was going to happen at that point.

56:47 Speaker 1: So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries to find holes in it, tells it, puts it online, and makes everybody aware of it. And that's how I found out about it.

56:58 Speaker 4: Yeah. To make a long story.

57:00 Speaker 1: Short, what happens, Yeah, to really make a long story short, what happens from there on? I mean, do they contact you and say, hey, Bob, it's probably a good idea. If you shut up, let me try to label you as crazy? Was there.

57:17 Speaker 4: There?

57:18 Speaker 3: Boy, there were a lot of things that happened. You know between that point, I'm leaving out a lot of stuff. To fill in the story. We'd have to go back to Los Alamos and and well, I really don't want to talk about that, the.

57:37 Speaker 1: Top secret weapons stuff that you were working on.

57:41 Speaker 3: No, I'm talking about the one fifteen. Well, I don't know. I have to think about how I.

57:49 Speaker 1: What is the problem.

57:53 Speaker 3: I don't want to get myself into more trouble by admitting something, so I just have to dance around a couple He.

58:00 Speaker 2: Was greted just during the filming at the.

58:02 Speaker 1: Movie people thought the movie's great, by the way, thanks Joe, And it's on Netflix right now if anybody wants to check it out. And if you're one of those people like me who you know, I've always loved the idea of UFOs. I became extremely weary talking to people who are UFO believers and UFO fanatics because there's so many of them that are full of shit, and not just full of shit, they're they're childishly delirious, like the way they talk about things that I mean, there's so many people that are that I'm in contact.

58:32 Speaker 1: They reach me in the night and they explain to me what we're doing to the ocean is wrong, and like You're like.

58:38 Speaker 3: Okay, this is one of the reasons I didn't want to do the show. Sure, well no, it's no yeah, well it's I mean, it's no joke. We've had people literally camp out on our front lawn, and you know, in some ways I can relate to some of these people. You know, maybe some of them did really have some kind of experience or saw something and all their friends think they're crazy. But hey, now there's this guy I heard on the radio, and at least he knows I'm not full of shit, so I gotta talk to him. And so most of the correspondence I get are people trying to get a hold of me, going, Bob, you got to listen to me, I'm coming to talk to you, you know, I'm driving from Oklahoma or whatever.

59:19 Speaker 3: But some of them are just fucking batshit crazy and they're they're frightening.

59:24 Speaker 1: There's a lot of schizophrenics that are involved in the conspiracy world. There's a lot of people that have real issues.

59:30 Speaker 2: Joe. It would be a disservice to your audience to not say that we have to look at what's going on now and understand. I've heard on your show a bunch of stuff about what's going on now, and to not really understand what's going on now. You can't see Bob's story in the correct light after thirty years, and at some point we should just touch upon that. The biggest being that things like the Tic tac Ufo case that came out. I've heard people even on the show say, or there's a glitch in the radar, that's a data poor perspective.

1:00:03 Speaker 2: You just don't know yet what's really going on. Command of Fravor, I was able to get the interview with him, to talk with him way before it became public. I got that from him. He saw it, other pilots saw it. This is a big thing that's going on right now they had more settings on the East coast recently, cubes with spherical ores. These are not aerodynamic, and these are the people we trust to defend us on nine to eleven. Commander Favor protected Los Angeles on nine to eleven, So we trust them, but they're not trained observers.

1:00:33 Speaker 2: Radar individuals see these things. And the big one just to throw it down, so we can consider a story a little differently, there's more depth to it. The big one is the United States government has admitted that they have been continuously studying the UFO phenomenon. That program was called a TIP Advanced ERAS or sorry, was called AWSAP. That that's the mother program. George Knapp got that out. They announced it the New York Times about a TIP but AWSAP these acronyms AWSAP Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Applications Program.

1:01:05 Speaker 2: Who cares? That was the mother program. So they've admitted we didn't stop studying UFOs in nineteen sixty nine with Project Bluebook. We don't think it's crazy. We actually want to reverse engineer the technology. That's why on your other show he said, what's this aav thing? It's like they're making up another UFO name. Well, hold on, there's a reason because in the documents, the DIA documents that George n App released that everybody said was faked till now they know is real, they call them AAV's, which is advanced aerospace vehicles.

1:01:32 Speaker 2: People are getting the acronyms wrong. So the reason for the terminology change is so that we can mimic what we're reading in the DIA documents. People can look for that now. So they changed the names to get people away from UFO or UAP even like Hillary Clinton said on air, right.

1:01:49 Speaker 1: So what are you talking about? Hillary?

1:01:51 Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton informed the public on Jimmy Kimmel, Oh, Jimmy, we don't call them UFOs anymore. We call them uaaps on a identified aerial phenomenon. Right, So she kind of was giving the Clintons are very into the UFO topic, Senator Reid. You know, he's done a lot for the subject, the study of it.

1:02:10 Speaker 1: Right.

1:02:11 Speaker 2: So she informed the public so they could look for the right term. So these terms are important because the DA in those documents, they've been calling them AAV's for quite some time now.

1:02:21 Speaker 1: And they changed the name to anomalous.

1:02:24 Speaker 2: No, that's kind of a misnom So they always mess around with things, but it's actually advanced.

1:02:31 Speaker 1: Right. They're describing it in the news. They were calling it anomalous totally bace.

1:02:35 Speaker 2: Vehicle totally and that's cool. They were also saying anomalous aerospace threats aat right, because they want the sense of a threat. So my point is, all of if people don't know this now and they think this stuff is fantasy, this part of it, that we're studying it, that we take it seriously, we're spending money on it, and that we're getting great data from visual pilots to radar. That's why we know it's aerospace. They dropped from eighty thousand feet, but guess what, that's the top scope of the spy one radar is eighty thousand feet, so the radar system they were using it was coming from above that.

1:03:08 Speaker 2: So my point is this, if you don't understand that this is happening, you're just behind the curve because you don't have the information because of the stigma that you're talking about. I saw you get totally upset with the UFO topic. I met you first. When you get totally upset with the UFO topic, it's the people.

1:03:25 Speaker 5: When when you're doing your I'm sorry, man, when you're doing your show, you know the jor Dan questions everything I could see, how how frustrating is trust me, I have been frustrated to how luckily my mentor is George Knapp and he's taught me the pitfalls as I went through it.

1:03:43 Speaker 2: My whole point in this rant right here is just that we have to now look at Bob's story, but knowing the facts, not someone saying it's a bird, it's a plane, it's a glitch. They're not. And so if you don't know that, you just don't have the information yet.

1:03:58 Speaker 1: Not just that knowing the facts as we know him toowenty nineteen, not in nineteen eighty eight.

1:04:02 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so what is he said that has come true? He's totally unimpressed with it?

1:04:08 Speaker 1: Right?

1:04:08 Speaker 2: What has he said this come true? So I was like, Bob, they've announced gravity as a wave. You were right, man, you're vindicated. And he looks at me and he's like, well, if you think about it, Jeremy, I had like a fifty to fifty chance. He was not very impressed.

1:04:22 Speaker 1: Right when did they announce gravity as a wave?

1:04:25 Speaker 2: So they detected in a sense, they detected gravity waves.

1:04:28 Speaker 1: Now, who is they?

1:04:30 Speaker 2: You might know more. There's two black holes that were colliding, and that's how they were able to detect.

1:04:34 Speaker 3: Yeah, somebody Bill. I don't know which group it was or what part.

1:04:37 Speaker 4: Of the government.

1:04:38 Speaker 2: That's what Google's for.

1:04:40 Speaker 3: Yeah, but they, you know, built a gigantic gravity wave detector and pretty much detected that.

1:04:48 Speaker 2: There are such things as first observation of gravitational waves.

1:04:53 Speaker 1: It says it was in twenty sixteen. Okay, the first observation of gravitational waves was made on fourteen September twenty fifteen, as announced by the l Igo and Virgo collaborators on the eleventh of February twenty sixteen. Previously, gravitational waves had only been inferred indirectly via their effect on the timing of pulsars and binary star systems. Don dun dum. The waveform connected by both Ligo Lgo observatories matched to predictions of general relativity for Gravit for a gravitational wave emanating from the inwards.

1:05:34 Speaker 1: I'm trying to get this from the inward spiral and merger of a pair of black holes around thirty six and twenty nine solar masses and the subsequent ring down of the single resulting black hole.

1:05:47 Speaker 3: Well that I mean, yes, no, he was. In the eighties, the predominant theory was gravity is produced by gravitons, you know, part of theoretical part theoretical particles, but they're not they're waves, they're not particles.

1:06:01 Speaker 1: And so the thought is that the way we experience gravity, it's based on mass, which is why the Moon, which is roughly one quarter the size of the Earth, has one six of the Earth's gravity. So there's some sort of a computation you can make based on mass.

1:06:16 Speaker 3: Right, And remember, we can observe the effects of gravity, but we have no idea what it is. All we can do is observe it, and we can't make it. The only way you can make gravity is just put more mass together, and it's just a product of gravity. But if you can make if you have a machine that makes gravity, you can pretty much do anything. You can affect time, you can have force fields, all that stuff that's in science fiction becomes reality if you have a machine that can make gravity. And what we worked on in the desert was a machine that makes gravity.

1:06:53 Speaker 1: I love your analogy of dropping off a small nuclear reactor to the Victorian era. I love that that a noun because back then that was impossible, that was magic. What you're talking about here, the fact that they just discovered this four years ago, that this is a wave. We're as much as we know and as impressed as we are as we should be with how much more technologically advanced we are than every other creature on this planet. We're still in many ways in the adolescence of technological innovation.

1:07:25 Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely if even adolescence.

1:07:29 Speaker 1: And when you're talking about this binary star system and Zeta Reticuli and who knows how much longer these things have been around than us, Who knows what their evolutionary cycle has been. Who knows what I mean? We might be talking about something that's a million years more advanced than us.

1:07:46 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it could easily be. Well, I'm not in believe it or not. I'm not into UFOs. I don't follow the stories or you know, even after your experiences. No, I'm fascinated with the technology and it really it irks me, like every night I go to sleep that you know, I don't that it was my own doing essentially that that prevented me from continuing on in the in the project. I mean, it's that to be on that cutting edge of technology is so alluring to me. But you know, by the same token, I don't really care that there's aliens or where they come from.

1:08:25 Speaker 3: I mean, the prize is the technology, and that's what I'm fascinated by. But so I don't listen to UFO stories and that sort of thing. But George Knapp is I mean, he's the guy that has the contacts and tries to thread everything together. And what he recently told me is he found I don't know it's either documentation or people that he spoke to. It's at the existence of this project, the project that I was on. It's something that they seem to take out every eight or ten years.

1:08:55 Speaker 2: So that's a very specific memo, and this is actually this is the first time I'll be very clear with people about it. It's a big topic of conversation right now. It's called the Wilson memo. You can look it up. Admiral Wilson met with a scientist who's actually was featured in one of my films. Everybody has been debating whether or not this document of a conversation with an sitting admiral at the time is a real document. It's an actual conversation that happened. And this document is where everybody wants to know.

1:09:24 Speaker 2: The world is going crazy right now in the UFO world. I'll tell you straight up, right now, I'm in the position to know. And it is a real document that it is real. So the conversation you read in that, that conversation was had. I can't attest to everything.

1:09:40 Speaker 1: You're not being very clear.

1:09:41 Speaker 2: Sure, please, no problem. So there was a document this is circulating right now that is really big. It's going around everywhere. People are asking what is this document? It's called the Wilson memos. What how you can find it online or the Wilson leak.

1:09:56 Speaker 1: There it is. Jimmy's got it, the Wilson memorandum use of human No no, no, no, no, that's not it. Yeah.

1:10:03 Speaker 2: So Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist and they have this discussion oddly enough at special projects at EG and G. And if I remember, the document is from two thousand and one, I'm telling everybody right now, it's real. And we'll see. My history is pretty good with like saying if something's real or not right. So here we go. The document comes out. They meet at EG and G Special Projects in nineteen eighty nine, they stumble into a problem. This happens, they put the technology away, and then they bring it back out and see if material science has caught up and if they can make any progress.

1:10:37 Speaker 2: So this document kind of talks about this process. The big thing I get from it and a lot of it's vindicating to Bob. And one of the things that's vindicating besides the EG and G thing is that private industry. So this guy's an admiral and he says, I found out about your SAP, your special access program. I need to know about it. And he's going to a private part of industry and he has denied access and he says, you know, I should be running this program, and they were able to deny him access. So I think the takeaway here is check it out.

1:11:11 Speaker 2: I'm telling you that that is an actual correct That is a leak. Now everything's said in that document. I don't know what are you talking about. What is said in that document specific it's between a scientist and an admiral that are sitting and they're having a meeting and they're talking about the search for the UFO subject the search to get special access program access to all of these different things like reverse engineering programs. So in this document they talk about it. I believe that this document that the person that went was employed by Robert Bigelow.

1:11:45 Speaker 2: You know, one of the guys has a couple of orbiting satellites and all that stuff.

1:11:48 Speaker 1: Who's the guy owned Skinwalker Ranch?

1:11:50 Speaker 2: No, he's not. He was the guy the owned Skinwalker Okay, yeah, he used to own it. There's a new owner and I interview him for my other film. But there's a new owner and you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon. But like it'll just there's there's stuff that you'll be hearing about Skinwalker around soon because there's a new owner. Anyway, the whole point of this, you know insertion here, is just that that document kind of validates a lot of this idea. Bob just said that they make a little progress, then they can't go anywhere.

1:12:20 Speaker 2: They tuck it away, and then they bring it back out, you know, ten years later and start working on it. What is the limiting factor? I think Bob should speak on this, But it's the material science.

1:12:31 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's early where physics is, so I can I can see them doing that. I mean, I didn't have any information on that, but I think what you know George uncovered is probably accurate. That you know, we try and do what we can and once we reach a roadblock on we really can't figure it out. It's just freaking wait, put the thing away, wait for science to catch up, and you know, a decade later, let's take the project out again and see all right, now where can we go.

1:12:59 Speaker 1: But there's got to be someone who remains informed, right, Oh yeah, You've got your scientists like you and Barry, you got your people that you compartmentalize, you got these people work on it.

1:13:08 Speaker 3: There has to be some people, right that know everything.

1:13:11 Speaker 1: You've got security, and then someone's going to be in the outside saying, hey, we need people to guard this building. Don't let anybody in for ten years.

1:13:19 Speaker 3: I think a lot of that is private industry, and I think that's how they keep it. Yeah, I think that's how they literate because the government is just so leaky. I think that's kind of what they're doing.

1:13:29 Speaker 2: That's what the document kind of proves. You just articulated that that it isn't control of private industry.

1:13:34 Speaker 1: What private industry Some aerospace company something I don't know.

1:13:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, they wouldn't. They would The guy with the admiral wouldn't name it in the car right in the conversation.

1:13:43 Speaker 1: So they still have these things, supposedly.

1:13:49 Speaker 3: I would guess. I mean, I don't have any information on Have you.

1:13:51 Speaker 1: Ever asked anyone that has any inkling of any idea of where they got them or how they got them?

1:14:00 Speaker 3: Now? But something must have been said to me from Barry, but it was just too long ago and I can't quite remember what.

1:14:10 Speaker 4: Was said, but it.

1:14:12 Speaker 3: It just left a seat in my mind. I think at least one of them was part of an archaeological dig, so it's old something. At least one of them is old. I don't know if it was the one I worked on, but I remember something to do with.

1:14:26 Speaker 4: An archaeological dig. Whoa, So that's uh.

1:14:30 Speaker 3: That means it's not just old, it's ancient.

1:14:32 Speaker 1: It'll be a great Steven Spielberg movie.

1:14:34 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, as all of it would.

1:14:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, that trimmed me out when he said that for the first time.

1:14:40 Speaker 1: No, that's a freak out right. There a couple of dudes with some brushes looking for a tyrannosaurs wreck bone, and it metal.

1:14:47 Speaker 2: And when did they find it? You know that they have nine of them?

1:14:50 Speaker 3: Well, and how could we have not heard about that? What about the guys with the brushes? How could you uncover something like that?

1:14:57 Speaker 2: And Joe's newspaper at home? Does I mean? And they said it on that first day?

1:15:01 Speaker 1: Oswell ye yeah, yeah when you told me yea, yeah, I have a cover. What is this here? James? Is the document? But it had to do some digging to find it.

1:15:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just kind of yeah. So this is where they meet it E G and G and this is Admiral Wilson. And there's a lot more coming out now. I want to be clear, George didn't put this out. He didn't leak this out to anybity. This is I can tell you how.

1:15:21 Speaker 1: I recorded this conversation.

1:15:23 Speaker 2: So this was an employee of at the time Robert Bigelow.

1:15:26 Speaker 1: And this is in two thousand and two.

1:15:27 Speaker 2: Right, do you remember when he had that government contract called AWSAP the world all knows about now, and he had knids that studied the ranch that twenty two million. Everybody is saying it was for a tip Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification program. The twenty two million dollars was for AWSAP that was pushed through through Congress. Three congressmen, right, an astronaut, it was pushed through and that's what that twenty two million dollars. By the way, they spend more money on viagra every year than they do study in UFOs.

1:15:55 Speaker 2: If it was just this program, which I think is funny.

1:15:57 Speaker 1: Probably more money from they probably do well.

1:16:00 Speaker 2: You never know how it seeds into population. But anyway, this program, this is what was the mother program, so it got the twenty two million, and really it was to study Skinwalker Ranch. Oddly enough, that twenty two million all was inspired by the phenomenon they were seen at Skinwalker Ranch because the scientists they're seeing vehicles come through like a space in the sky.

1:16:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, we went there. I went through the docu. Yeah, we interviewed a bunch of people that seemed full of shit, but a couple that didn't. This is very very interesting.

1:16:31 Speaker 2: Totally, and there's but if you look, I spent a lot of time in the area. I'm not talking about those stories. I'm saying there were scientists hired by the government right through Big Low to study the ranch because they thought it was important and you know, whatever, whatever. The point is that twenty two million was to study that. Then we have a tip which is like an auxiliary kind of program of military settings like commander fravers and that sort of thing. This document is just one of those things that has now come forward that through the big Low studies it was got funded, and then it was personally funded and then government funded.

1:17:04 Speaker 2: It's just one of those things that kind of shakes you because you got this military guy who can't get access because of the private industry that's holding these non terrestrial materials that they can't study it. So that's the claim, right now, give it some time, let people dig more into this. It's fascinating man.

1:17:24 Speaker 1: So you are essentially you're kicked out right, You're out of this program. You can't work with these crafts anymore. And do they give you any threats? Do they tell you what you have to do from here on out?

1:17:43 Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, I mean the way it ended was I told George Knapp all this stuff, and you know, he said, well, let's just get it on tape. Should something happen, at least we have a record of it. And I don't remember what the ampetus was, but at some point George wanted to air it, and he said, you know, you make the call on it, and look, if at any point you change your mind, we won't air it. And it came down to the day where George wants to put her on the five o'clock news. He said, this is important stuff.

1:18:17 Speaker 3: People have to know about it, and I thought it was too I thought.

1:18:21 Speaker 4: It's kind of a crime.

1:18:22 Speaker 3: I know, you got to keep the technology secret, but you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going on, that we have, you know, actual hardware from another civilization. It's a big fucking deal, you know, probably the biggest one there ever was. And George said, you know, today's the day we got to put it on the news, or's something to that effect. And when it came right down to the time to air it, I changed my mind and I said we're not doing it. And that's what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and George trying to get the tape.

1:18:57 Speaker 4: But he won because he was a bigger guy.

1:19:00 Speaker 1: He actually physically wrestled well.

1:19:01 Speaker 3: I think it was more of a pulling match. I don't think we ever hit the ground, but he got the tape. He put it in the player and Boom five o'clock news was on and then I got a call after that and they said it was from Dennis. He said, you have any idea what we're going to do to you now? And he hung up the phone. That was the last communication I had with him.

1:19:22 Speaker 1: And what has happened to you since then?

1:19:25 Speaker 3: After that, a lot of people I've known either were audited by the IRS, people had Anybody I know that had clearances that worked in secure programs had the clearances pulled. One of them, friend, that one of mine that Jeremy knows.

1:19:47 Speaker 2: He's doing on camera with me soon he'll tell the story now that he's out of work up there.

1:19:51 Speaker 3: He was working up at the Tono Potest range waiting for his clearance to come through, and you know.

1:19:56 Speaker 4: They pulled that.

1:19:57 Speaker 3: It became it's like, if they can't get the person that's involved, they just create a problem for everybody that surrounds them. And so, I mean, the way it turns out, it hurt a lot of people's lives that I was connected to, and that's an effective way of shutting someone up.

1:20:16 Speaker 1: So did you feel that by coming forward and going public they couldn't just snuff you out?

1:20:20 Speaker 3: That was I mean that's what I was told in George and everybody you know said that you got to it's public, there's no one will touch you.

1:20:27 Speaker 4: And I you know, I.

1:20:29 Speaker 1: Fell for it, and I wish you didn't.

1:20:35 Speaker 3: Yeah.

1:20:35 Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes when it's just over stressed and people are camping on your lawn.

1:20:39 Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's this is going to make things worse doing this.

1:20:43 Speaker 1: No, this is going to make things better.

1:20:45 Speaker 2: I'm trying to tell them, how is this going to.

1:20:47 Speaker 4: Make things better?

1:20:48 Speaker 1: Because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in a way that's going to make people who are not only work in the government, people that are police officers, fire fighters and first responders and doctors and scientists. They're going to empathize, emphasize, empathize, and empathize with what it must be like to be a person like you in your twenties who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with one of the most, if not the most important discovery in the history of human beings.

1:21:26 Speaker 1: The big question, Are we alone? It's the number one question. There's two questions, right, what happens when we die? And are we alone? Those are the two big questions, right, and if we're not alone, and someone knows we're not alone, and these some people who know we're not alone, are these bungling? Sort of.

1:21:49 Speaker 3: It's a crime. Yet they're not telling the rest of us.

1:21:52 Speaker 1: But I mean, I don't mean bungling in terms they're incompetent. I mean they can't be competent. It seems to me to what you're describing that no one can be competent with this technology, like the Victorian Victorian era scholars analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor. There's there's no way.

1:22:09 Speaker 2: Why do you think, Why do you think they're not telling us. Let's just make an assumption that this is true right now. Why do you think that they're not telling us that our government doesn't tell us?

1:22:19 Speaker 1: What's your best Well, let me put it into what would you do if I'm the president, okay, and I get this information? What do I do with this? What do I do with this? There's something that we don't know. There's something we don't understand. There's something that came from another world. We got it tucked away in the mountains, and I just want you guys know about it. Hey, sleep tight, Hey American not is on tonight? Who do you think is gonna win? Who's gonna win America's talent?

1:22:43 Speaker 2: So one is uncertainty and the other one is what Bob and I have talked about a lot, absolutely not knowing what to tell people because you don't really understand it yourself even.

1:22:52 Speaker 1: Though you've got what do you say if you want to run a government, you want to get people to pay their tax, but there's something else?

1:22:58 Speaker 2: So you have these objects line with impunity, right, and you have something else.

1:23:02 Speaker 1: Well, not only that, what can you say, like how much do you really know?

1:23:06 Speaker 3: I think it's mainly the technology. They just want to keep the technology secret because there's.

1:23:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, whoever gets the dude?

1:23:13 Speaker 3: Yea, you you control were you become. You literally become invincible once you master the technology. You can't you cannot penetrate a field like that. So I imagine that's I know, it's all science fiction, but science fiction turns into science fact. If you have real force fields around aircraft and battleships, you you win. You win. You can force your will upon anybody. And uh, like I said, there's so much more to the story. When I was first there, there were Russian scientists at S four that was this was early on in the project.

1:23:48 Speaker 1: So this was before Operation paper Clip became public as well, right.

1:23:51 Speaker 3: I would imagine that was I don't know what the dates were.

1:23:54 Speaker 2: When was that when ninety eight?

1:23:56 Speaker 1: I think eight?

1:23:57 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I don't know the dates on it.

1:24:00 Speaker 1: Off ten years later, Operation paper Clip becomes Freedom of Information Act.

1:24:04 Speaker 2: We said, abou Russia, not Germany. You have it Russian scientists.

1:24:07 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean Russian scientists. A lot of them came from Germany. A lot of those those rocket scientists that worked with NASA, they all came from Nazi scientists, got it. So some Russians got some of them.

1:24:18 Speaker 3: I just know that at some point there was intense cooperation with I mean even exchanging some ideas on nuclear weapons and you know, EMP tests and things we would never have discussed with them. But at the same time, it was in the late eighties they were involved and actually in the area at S four with US.

1:24:37 Speaker 1: And you got to communicate with these guys or you saw.

1:24:39 Speaker 3: Them, No, I knew they were there.

1:24:40 Speaker 1: Barry.

1:24:41 Speaker 3: Barry would talk about the comedies that were there. Comedy, Yeah, the comedies, and.

1:24:46 Speaker 1: That was back when they were the comedies.

1:24:48 Speaker 3: Yeah, they were real comedies and at some point it wasn't our group. But at some point there was a big discovery made. And this did not happen when I was there. It happened in between my trips to there, and after that. Apparently they decided it was just too cool to share with anybody, and the Russians weren't never allowed back on the base after that.

1:25:11 Speaker 1: But you don't know what that discovery was.

1:25:12 Speaker 3: No, Now, I guessaid it wasn't my group. So one of the other groups really found out something. But the you know, in typical American fashion, is all right, this is ours you guys, get the hell out of here.

1:25:24 Speaker 1: Was there any inkling that any other government had something similar?

1:25:29 Speaker 4: No, nothing that I had heard.

1:25:31 Speaker 1: See. That was the thing that always freaked me out was why, if, if something was so superior to human beings. It's almost like visiting an ant colony, like why would you go to the queen. I don't give a fuck who the queen is. I'm a human. I'm so superior to you ants. I don't care who you have running your hive. I'm just gonna study it.

1:25:48 Speaker 3: I think it's who got it?

1:25:50 Speaker 1: Who got it?

1:25:50 Speaker 3: Look at the you know, rocket technology in Germany.

1:25:53 Speaker 1: But they got nine of them.

1:25:56 Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me either. So they were either in the same area or you know, one head clues to where others were. I mean, I don't know, you have to fill that in there, but you're right, I mean, nine of them, that's a that's a big dig if it was archaeological.

1:26:12 Speaker 1: Well, one of the more recent the recent sightings and these discussions that have been coming out recently from Air Force pilots and Navy pilots, they've been talking about things happening in the ocean and that that something literally goes into the water or something maybe below the surface.

1:26:29 Speaker 2: Thing about the water two thousand and four Tik Tak Nimics case. So that's when George Knap and I broke on the radio twice before the New York Times, So I know this one really well. Commander Frevor and those pilots there was a disturbance on the surface of the water. Commander Frever visually saw what looked like similar to a cross some object. So it's like as if you have some coral under the water and you've got it's breaking over right. The tic tac is doing this crazy maneuver that defies it's a gravity propelled system.

1:26:58 Speaker 1: They saw it in the sky before this saw on water. Right.

1:27:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there was there were radar that was picking these things coming down from eighty thousand feet and dropping fifty feet in less than a second.

1:27:08 Speaker 1: This is it, Jamie. This is actually on the news today. There was a briefing.

1:27:11 Speaker 2: So a lot of people get this confused. Not this one then either, No, So that is called the gimbal. So there's three videos released by the Pentagon that are all actually I would really just pay attention to the source videos. So you've got the tic TAC, which is this object that Commander Freber saw. Another pilot filmed it with a fleer pod and it goes. But this one you see is really important to Bob's story, the gimbal craft. It's been recently analyzed. It's flear Not only does it it's definitive that it's not conventional anything by its movements, but there's a pocket of cold air around a propulsion source.

1:27:52 Speaker 2: So this object, by the way, sat stationary for days, if not weeks. It's sat stationary.

1:27:58 Speaker 1: They found it eleven hours later and they were saying there's no way this thing using that kind of energy to go that fast could just hover.

1:28:05 Speaker 2: The amount of time. And by the way, you're seeing a very small part of what happened that day. This object was not alone and so hopefully that information comes out and we can I mean, I wish we had video of it. I'm sure we'd all want to see it. But that's called the gimbal that was East Coast right twenty fifteen, West Coast two thousand and four is the tic TAC. The disturbance on the water. Commander Freber believes there was something under that water that was causing that disturbance when the TICTAC was coming around and doing it withinside the people that are studying this, they're thinking maybe the tic TAC system was causing the disturbance, But the USO and identified submerged object that he visually saw.

1:28:48 Speaker 2: The whole interesting thing about that is I would love Bob to describe it is why it doesn't matter if these craft are in space, air, or water. Why doesn't it matter? I love when he talks about this well.

1:29:01 Speaker 3: First of all, Commander FRAVERR was the F eighteen pilot off the Knemetz that was sent out to find out what this stuff is. And it wasn't just I got a chance to talk to him recently, and it wasn't just a radar image. I mean Commander Fraver had eyes on it for over five minutes, watching this thing as four other pilots did. So this wasn't a radar blip or anything. I mean, these guys were watching this thing. But you know, one of the things I think in the gimbal video, the way the craft that we worked on flies is it doesn't fly like a conventional aircraft does, and it doesn't fly like a flying saucer Winter in a nineteen fifties movie.

1:29:46 Speaker 3: It flies belly first. I mean it may set down conventionally, but it always rotates. It does a roll maneuver, puts its belly towards the target, and then moves away.

1:29:56 Speaker 1: At high speed car flying with the wheels forward right right.

1:30:01 Speaker 3: I mean, it may lift land on the wheels, but at some point when it wants to leave, flips up, points the wheels where it wants to go and takes off. And the gimbal video you can see the craft do the role maneuver, and it's really interesting. It behaves exactly like the craft that I worked on.

1:30:18 Speaker 1: So much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars. They probably have different shapes of these objects that operate under similar.

1:30:29 Speaker 3: Principles, but they all have the same power source.

1:30:33 Speaker 1: All the same power source. And we're also dealing with if you think about the laws of technological progression, you know, you think of Moore's law, and you think of how things accelerate, you've got to think that if this civilization is, who knows how many years more advanced than we are, if not even years. I mean, I mean we're thinking about in terms of conventional terms, right the way we look at the world. I mean, they meet, they might be just superior in terms of their intellect. They've got to be.

1:31:04 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe we don't know right well.

1:31:06 Speaker 3: The only reason I say that is because look, everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine and go to an internal combustion engine and then you know, electric power, nuclear power, and go up the ladder that we come on. You know, the binary If the stuff is true about the origin and the Binary star system, and they have heavier elements that we don't have, and this element stable element one point fifteen isn't naturally occurring material. Maybe that's the first thing they started experimenting with and the version of their steam engine.

1:31:39 Speaker 3: Their first product was something that operated like this, And actually when they came to Earth to look around or you know whatever, they were amazed at the stuff we were doing. These guys burn stuff and squirted out the back to go forward. So you know, who says they follow any kind of normal progression like that?

1:31:57 Speaker 1: My thought was, if you went back to the fourteen hundreds and then you went from fourteen hundred to fifteen hundred, you're not going to see that much of a difference. Technologically, if you go from two thousand to three thousand, I assume there's going to be a radical change, right.

1:32:12 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the delta, the rate of change is magnificently higher than it used to be.

1:32:20 Speaker 1: Right, So, if you think about what they had in nineteen eighty eight and you think about what they probably have in twenty nineteen, just logically seems like they would advance.

1:32:32 Speaker 3: I would think.

1:32:33 Speaker 1: So the only question is like are they living? Is that a living thing in terms of like a biological thing, or are they some sort of an artificially created creation like we are working on right now. I mean, we're in the middle of working on artificial reality, artificial beings, sentient beings, artificial intelligence, there's constant there's silicon based life forms that they're essentially trying to create Boston Dynamic or was it Boston Dynamics at the companies robots.

1:33:03 Speaker 2: You can make machines out of flesh, right, So cyborg or cybernetic organism is just that, you know, that's what a lot of people think those like gray things are, you know that people call the grays. It's like they were like their machines printed from flesh. So what you're saying is.

1:33:17 Speaker 3: Like synthetic that they don't even need to be, you know, machines.

1:33:23 Speaker 1: Well, they seem to have no sex organs the way they're described by people that have had interactions with them, Assuming these people aren't liars or crazy or whatever, they have no sex organs, and that they don't seem to have any muscle that're's almost like a frame. And they have enormous heads. I mean, if you look at Australia pithecus or depictions of you know, ancient hominids, and then you go to human beings, one of the things you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies.

1:33:50 Speaker 3: Well you see some clear progression of evolution too, where or something like that. I would lean towards synthetic organism because it looks like it was made for a specific task. There are no reproductive organs, so I mean that almost kind of leaves out any kind of you know, physical evolution.

1:34:07 Speaker 1: Right. Well, that's also our bottleneck, right, Our bottleneck is our biological imperative, the need to breed, emotions, fear, anxiety, all these different things that exist in order to force us into making sure we reproduce. I mean, that's essentially with it is a human reward systems that aren't necessary once they can figure out a way to make some sort of sentient, artificial life, some sort of thing that doesn't have these biological limitations that we have.

1:34:35 Speaker 2: By the way, these craft, all these different kinds have been reported because it was confusing. I always thought of flying sausag as what I heard Bob Lazar talk about fling saucer. Right, But if you look back in history, people have always reported the weirdest shapes, like none of them are alike. You know, there are other saucers, but you got cigar shaped, you got you know, the top hat shaped you have orbs. Why maybe they're serving different purposes, They're doing different things, like we'd use different tools.

1:35:00 Speaker 2: And I want to be clear. The reason I know that memo is real is because I spend a lot of time with doctor Egar Mitchell, six man to walk on the moon, last guy to film him before he died. Right, That's how I know. I don't want any journalists thinking I got it from anywhere else. I know because of doctor Mitchell, and he said the same thing. Maybe these things are performing different tasks, you know, And that's.

1:35:21 Speaker 1: Why I seem if you think about what an alien is in terms of are the sort of iconic image of an alien, like Steven Spielberg closing cons are the third time the third kind alien, They seem like what we'd assume a human being would eventually become. Right, And if these things are tiny, human beings are smaller than they've ever been before. They're weaker than they've ever been before. And there seems to be a trend in that direction. And this trend seems to be amplified by our technological progression.

1:35:52 Speaker 1: There are a lack of need for muscle strength and our lack of need for violence and we're moving in a society to try to get away from all the things that we think are a boring about human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have if we one day do give birth to some sort of an artificial being. Like Marshall McLuhan's quote, we are the sex organs of the machine world. You know that one day week. Yeah, mclun was brilliant, and that quote has always been one of my favorites, because, Okay, what are we doing when we're constantly technologically innovating.

1:36:29 Speaker 1: We're constantly looking for faster cars, better computers, bigger screens, faster, more resolution, more pixels, more this, more that, higher bandwidth, five G, ten G. What are we doing? We're moving into this in this if you just follow it objectively, stand back, don't attach yourself or your civilization, your culture to it, and look at what it is. We're moving one hundred percent towards technological innovation. If you looked at this species from Afar, and if you weren't a part of it, you would say, well, what does this species do?

1:36:58 Speaker 1: Oh? They make things? They make things better every year. Beehives are the same fucking thing that you see ten years ago. You go by, I see it be high. It's amazing, it's cool. But they're the same fucking thing. They figured out how to do it. They make a bee hive. We don't do that. We make better things.

1:37:12 Speaker 2: What would you?

1:37:12 Speaker 3: Constantly and at some point I think that technology is going to fuse with us. Yes, and we're going to become.

1:37:17 Speaker 1: It's already happening. Elon mus talked about it on my podcast that we are cyeboards. You just carry it in your pocket. It's a phone. It answers any question you want. You can talk to it. It'll give you the answers. The answers instantaneously. It navigates you. It has all your phone numbers in it, It has all your contacts. You can get a hold of people, people listening to you through it. It's connecting us in ways, even involuntarily.

1:37:37 Speaker 2: Haptics, that kind of thing.

1:37:39 Speaker 1: It's also getting on your wrist. How many people have I watches Apple watches right?

1:37:43 Speaker 3: The risk right, And that's only because we can't integrate them yet. But if you know that point.

1:37:47 Speaker 1: Is hundred per Yeah. I didn't joke about it last night, but I have a bit about it that I do about the integration between humans and technology.

1:37:54 Speaker 2: That's what would you do if you were a hyper intelligence?

1:37:57 Speaker 1: Right?

1:37:58 Speaker 2: Would you do the work yourself? Or would you create some cool things called like humans to do it for you? Would you create things that are cybernetic organisms to come in with machines and do it for you? If you're a HyperIntelligence that has kind of changed like you've described, you'd probably create workers.

1:38:13 Speaker 1: Right. Well, that's a vast conspiracy theory.

1:38:16 Speaker 2: I'm not talking about conspiracy, but it is a kind of a conspiracy asking you well, I mean, I don't think it's necessarily that.

1:38:22 Speaker 1: I mean, you could look at it that way, but that is the way a conspiracy theorist would look at it. The way I would look at it is like, there's obviously a progression going on, a biological progression. There's some sort of an integration with technology. There's some sort of imperative, this need for technological innovation. It's inescapable, everyone has it. And I think it's attached to materialism in some sort of a strange way, because so many people work so hard to get new things, and like God, it seems so illogical and preposterous and it makes people unhappy.

1:38:49 Speaker 1: And depressions on the rise, but nobody seems to be able to stop it, Like, why is that? Well, maybe it's because we are the electronic caterpillars that give birth to the bug or fly. Maybe that's what we're doing. Maybe what our job is to do is to make some sort of a cocoon and we don't even know we're doing it while we're doing it. Do you think a caterpillar as well? Hey caterpillar, what are you doing?

1:39:12 Speaker 5: Man?

1:39:12 Speaker 1: Just I'm doing my thing. It's my job. I have to make a cocoon.

1:39:15 Speaker 4: Then I'm a But this could be a natural part of evolution.

1:39:18 Speaker 3: It could be that we're just supposed to do this exactly and make the jump to some sort of mechanized right. Yeah.

1:39:25 Speaker 1: An orangutan that is fishing with a spear. No, they've figured out how to fish with spears. There's there's some primatologists.

1:39:37 Speaker 3: Without somebody showing them how to fish.

1:39:39 Speaker 1: No, they've imitated human beings doing it and now they do it. But they do it independently. They're not trained rangutans. They're wild rang Look at that. There's a wild that's impressive.

1:39:51 Speaker 4: That's impressive.

1:39:52 Speaker 1: Well, there's these primatologists. I guess you would call them primatologists. That's the term.

1:39:56 Speaker 4: That's a great.

1:39:57 Speaker 1: Biologists, biologists that believe that monkeys and chimps and some of the great apes are moving into the Stone Age, that they've currently entered the Stone Age, like they're not staying what they were one hundred thousand years ago or five hundred thousand years ago, but they're actively using tools and they're experimenting with different different ways to use those tools. And then they're making tools out of stone, they're making tools out of sticks, and they're using them. Well, this might just be what happens.

1:40:27 Speaker 1: This might just be what happens. I mean, why else, why are we Why the fuck we work so hard? I mean, I was driving to La this morning. I had a doctor's appointment, so I was on the four or five at eight in the morning. Like Jesus Christ, like, this is so crazy. When you're in the four or five in La at eight o'clock in the morning, you see literally a million cars and it's just everywhere you go as people. But and also I'm in a tesla, so I have it on an autopilot, so I'm there sitting I'm listening to a podcast.

1:40:55 Speaker 1: I barely have my hand on the wheel. I'm not touching shit. This car is driving me along. I'm not even doing anything. I'm just I'm just hanging out. It's so much less strapped by the way to do it that way. So it encourages you to to innovate. It encourages you to embrace this new technology. I got this giant screen. It's showing me the navigation in front of me. Oh, I be there five minutes early, excellent. And I'm listening to a podcast wirelessly. It's Bluetooth scream streaming from my phone.

1:41:22 Speaker 1: And I pulled that podcast which came out today out of the fucking sky, and I'm listening to it. And I'm all comfortable in my nice little car, just driving on my way to the doctor's office.

1:41:31 Speaker 4: This is irresistible stuff.

1:41:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's different than your walkman, irresistible.

1:41:37 Speaker 3: It's frighteningly irresistible.

1:41:39 Speaker 1: But is it frightening? I mean, if you were a monkey, right, if you were an Australia pithecus, would you go? Man, I don't want to fucking be a person. I live in a house. That's bullshit. I like just swinging around on trees I like running from jaguars. This is life, guys. Life is running from crocodiles. It's not living in a suburban.

1:41:56 Speaker 3: There's probably some that are like that.

1:41:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think so. I think. I think when it comes, we're going to embrace it. We're gonna embrace it the same way embrace cell phones, the same way embrace television. There's gonna be a few holdouts, so I don't even have an email address. Man, those there's a few and far between. The good luck with that, fuck face, go move to the woods. Ted Kaczinsky. Ted Kazinski was right. This is something that I think about sometimes when I get really high. That Ted Kazinski was a part of the Harvard LSD studies.

1:42:25 Speaker 1: This has been proven. Ted Kazinski, they cooked his fucking brain when he was at Harvard and then when he went over to Berkeley and became a professor. His goal was to make enough money so that he could implement this program and live in the woods and then write his manifesto and start killing people that were involved in propagating technology.

1:42:42 Speaker 2: He was expunged from the Harvard logs. By the way, this is something my friend just called me about. So there's like this private library and they used to print people's names whenever they were part of a university, and he was one of a handful of people that were expunged from it. I want to jump back to the one thing, Joe, I want to be very careful with that word conspiracy theorist. What I was, what I was saying to you, is we terraform our earth, right, we terriform, we change the environment, we do all this innovation.

1:43:12 Speaker 2: What is stopping us from thinking that that's not being done? I'm not saying it is. I'm saying what's stopping us from thinking that that's being done on a much bigger level, on a cosmic level.

1:43:22 Speaker 1: You mean like aliens coming down doing that the humans.

1:43:25 Speaker 2: So I'm telling you that there is something here that's there's a fact, you know, there's something there are a craft. They're here. They're not ours, they're here. So the question is what is that about? And I'm just looking at what we do with what you're describing with technology.

1:43:39 Speaker 1: I think it's much more likely that the same way we observe chimps and we observe that they are now in the Stone Age, that they're observing us and that they're recognizing that there is a pattern, that there is a there's a steps that happen. I mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels of civilization and that you know that if we don't get past certain levels, we're never going to reach this mean we're in.

1:44:01 Speaker 2: Going to stay a type zero.

1:44:02 Speaker 1: Well, we're in this warring, polluting, pillaging. We're awesome civilization. Well, I mean we're awesome in a lot of.

1:44:11 Speaker 2: Ways, you know, but in that way we're not.

1:44:12 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we're we're children that have immense power that we didn't. Really, the other thing is you're using the immense power that other people have created, right, I mean, even when you're driving a car and you're stomping on the gas like, whoo, you didn't invent the fucking engine, you didn't invent tires. There's all these things that were involved in the creation of this thing that is really outside of your grasp of understanding, but yet you have the ability to use it. Like a person with a gun, I'm just going to bang, bang bang people.

1:44:42 Speaker 1: You don't you didn't invent a gun. So like you've you've without the intellect to craft and engineer, and and manifest these creations. You just have access to them because you have paper, or you have bitcoin, or you have whatever the fuck you're using using a credit card. Now you have almost no responsibility. You just you could just flippantly use these things. Which is why we, you know, we were very childlike in our actions, because we haven't had to earn the responsibility. We haven't had to earn these things that we've been able to have, And you've only been able to have them because other people have innovated and spent ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the lab to create these things.

1:45:24 Speaker 1: And then they've all put them together. And then what is the what's the reason to put them together? To profit? Well, what's the reason of profit? Why are you doing this so you can buy more things? What are we doing? What are we doing? We're making better things? That's what we do. That's all they do.

1:45:37 Speaker 3: All we do is make bets.

1:45:39 Speaker 1: Why the fuck do we need oil? Why do we need oil? Why can't we just burn wood and stay home? Why can't we grow chickens and food in the backyard? Why can't we do it? Well, we fucking can. We certainly can people do do it, but we decide to make that almost impossible. Our preferred way of living is to stuff everyone into a very small area where no one grows anything other than weed. This is what la is La is. Twenty million people with hard surfaces, as many hard surfaces as you can. Boy, if you got an acre backyard in La, Holy shit, look at all that grain.

1:46:09 Speaker 1: This is amazing. Well, no, that's the fucking earth coming through this weird sort of creation that we've put on top of the earth. But the goal is that like New York City, there's none of it, right, you just got you've got Central Park and they just got human shit stacked up. No one's growing anything. And then constant work. Everyone's up early, go, go, go innovate, progress, make that money so you can buy more things. And every year, hey Apple, where's this fucking new phone? As if your phone isn't good enough?

1:46:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, like your phone's taking pictures and videos and people are calling you when you've got applications to tell you which way the wind's blowing. It's not good enough.

1:46:48 Speaker 2: A blink of an eye, blink of an eye. It's all gone though that you know, like ten thousand years and the Hoover dam goes or whatever, you know, Mount Rushmore disintegrates. So it's amazing because we have created that and everything's trying to spring up through that. We keep it maintenance down, but we're a blink man. Something hits, but.

1:47:04 Speaker 1: We don't think that way. Well, you know, you think in terms of your own life, right you think in terms of what you want and what you need. Right now, you know what we are in many ways, this combination of this weird primitive ape like thing with the ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment that makes us wholly unique. On top of that with existential angst and fear. So what do you do with that? With fucking water down with antidepressants. Give these fucking people some shit that keeps them moving.

1:47:34 Speaker 1: Who they're worried about the future. They're trying to figure out what reality is. It's you're on a goddamn convertible spaceship spending one thousand miles an hour hurling through infinity. There's no meaning to this thing. Just keep making shit, keep making stuff, and then one day they're going to be able to hit that switch and this life will be born out of innovation and thinking and progress. And technology, and more than likely it's probably going to be what we're seeing, that these things are that you're observing.

1:48:04 Speaker 2: I'm not observing them, but yeah, someone.

1:48:07 Speaker 4: Are you implying that they're us?

1:48:09 Speaker 1: I don't think they are us, but I think they are what happens when things keep going. It's not us, just like we're not monkeys, right, I'm not a chimp.

1:48:20 Speaker 2: They're from here? Is your idea?

1:48:22 Speaker 1: No? No, no, that this is what happens all over the universe? Yea, but this is what happened. Look, here's the thing, you know. I went to see Brian Cox's. He has this amazing live show with Robin Ins where they have these led screens, these huge screens with these high resolution depictions of the cosmos, and one of the most mind blowing things was he has this large scale image of the universe and it shows all the individual galaxies of the universe, and it just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions and it's fucking incredible.

1:48:58 Speaker 1: But what's stunning is the real uniformity of it. Even at you know, I mean, you're obviously looking at an incredibly small depiction of something that's immensely large, like a galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars. You're seeing it as this little dot, but this little dot that's flying through space surrounded by other little darts with very similarly space distances.

1:49:22 Speaker 2: Between all through.

1:49:23 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, like if we see uniformity in that form in terms of like the distance between galaxy, like so many galaxies is so it's so similar, they might vary slightly, and that slightly might be hundreds of millions of light years, right, But there's so much uniformity, why would we not assume that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere and that all these things that you're seeing that are so similar. You do see binary star systems, you do see single star systems like stars. But there's also some some speculation that Earth and that our solar system is one time was a binary star system, right, I mean, that's one of the speculations about that that object that they find outside the Kuiper Belt, that the thing is ten times larger than Earth.

1:50:02 Speaker 1: They think it might have been at one point in time of star. But this this uniformity that you see, why wouldn't we think that that that has its same implications biologically, that there's some sort of a biological uniformity, and that this happens given the right sets of circumstances.

1:50:19 Speaker 4: You should be you.

1:50:19 Speaker 2: Should tell them some of the stuff that you've read that you don't know is true. I mean, if the stuff was true about the propulsion stuff. I mean, anyway, well, what have you read what you saw too?

1:50:31 Speaker 1: You know, what are you talking about? Spill the beans, Bob, I got to poke the bear hair, get in the well.

1:50:42 Speaker 3: I mean the Again, the only thing I could verify was what I had in my hands. On There were you know, there was talk of weapon systems, that there were different projects, project like Galileo, Project Sidekick was supposed to be weapon applications of the craft. Project looking Glass had to do with time, any effects of time in the craft. Now, I don't think we're not talking about making a time machine like in science fiction, but we're talking about you know, small distortions, intentional distortions of time, and how that can be used you know, as a.

1:51:20 Speaker 4: Not as well.

1:51:21 Speaker 3: It was part of a weapon program.

1:51:22 Speaker 1: How are you informed in this?

1:51:23 Speaker 3: But these again were there's just the small briefings that I read. But again I don't really like to talk about those because I don't have any information on him, and it was just you know, small briefings.

1:51:34 Speaker 2: They told Commander Fravor that what he saw might have been a time dilation in it.

1:51:39 Speaker 3: Well, it could be because gravity effects time, you know, space time.

1:51:43 Speaker 4: I'm sure you've heard of that.

1:51:44 Speaker 3: And you know what what Commander Fraber saw as he was in the F eighteen approaching it, he said he described it as a ping pong ball in a cup and shaking it back and forth.

1:51:57 Speaker 4: It was moving that fast.

1:51:59 Speaker 3: Now, obviously there's anything inside there, it's going to be battered to hell. But you know, my point was was that, well, one of two things. Either there's a gravitational envelope in there which negates any inertia effects, or you are seeing through a gravity distortion field. So you know, just like you're looking at a hot highway and you see, you know, an optical distortion going through there. Well, the same thing happens in gravity, and the craft may not actually be moving like that. It may just look like it because you're seeing you can only see it through the field, so it may be making much more gentle moves.

1:52:40 Speaker 3: I'm not saying that's it, but it has to be one of the two.

1:52:44 Speaker 2: And the thing shows up sixty miles away. They noticed it on radar sixty seconds after left Commander Favor, but it was at his cap point, which is the next point he was destined to go to sixty miles away, and in sixty seconds on radar, the same object ends up there.

1:53:03 Speaker 1: So it's going a mile second.

1:53:05 Speaker 2: No, they I think the radar just picked it up in sixty seconds.

1:53:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, it could have been there instantly, but yeah, we don't know. Cycle.

1:53:13 Speaker 2: Nobody knows. That's the whole thing is.

1:53:15 Speaker 1: Oh, so it cycles like radar cycles.

1:53:18 Speaker 3: It doesn't sweep, but I mean it yeah, it's a plane, so it just you know, it scans around it at random places.

1:53:26 Speaker 2: The spy one does it really cool? Yeah, it doesn't do the whole loop anymore.

1:53:30 Speaker 3: And the point the point is though, that the craft moved to his next location before he knew where his next location was going to be. Jesus, And that's I mean, that's well documented. So that's a that's a pretty shocking piece of information.

1:53:48 Speaker 1: What's fascinating to me too, is that you were discussing this the way this reactor worked, and that these things were not really connected.

1:53:58 Speaker 3: No, nothing is connected. There's no wiring at all.

1:54:05 Speaker 2: That freaks me the fuck out charge your iPhone, you know, Yeah, yeah.

1:54:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's the that's the simple electromagnetic Yeah. I know again, but that's just simple electro magnetic induction.

1:54:17 Speaker 1: But I mean, Tesla the scientist had this concept.

1:54:20 Speaker 3: Of right, that's that's that's what I'm talking about for other people.

1:54:23 Speaker 1: That I don't know what we're saying that he wanted to send wireless electricity through the sky, and Westinghouse was like, get the fuck out of here with that, Like when anybody could just pull electricity.

1:54:33 Speaker 3: Yeah, they couldn't.

1:54:33 Speaker 4: They couldn't.

1:54:34 Speaker 2: We just talk in the car right over and trying to chill him out. You know, we're talking about Tesla and now you know he couldn't be metered and how it all went down. So it's funny bring it up.

1:54:42 Speaker 1: Yeah, that that I mean, who knows what would have happened in terms of animation had he been allowed to go forward with that.

1:54:50 Speaker 3: Well, we probably wouldn't have computers, you think. Yeah, I'm pretty positive. I mean, forget about microelectronics. Well, this is dumping huge amounts of electromagnet energy in the air, and yeah, we'd be able to wirelessly turn on our lights, but there'd be no radio communication. The interference would be something we would be overwhelming. It would induce electric currents in anything with a small wire on it, so integrated circuits, transistors would be disintegrated before they were even you know, tested for operations.

1:55:21 Speaker 3: So it would it would destroy fucked us up.

1:55:24 Speaker 4: Yeah, it would have stopped us dead.

1:55:26 Speaker 3: We'd have it'd be great, you can turn lighters on and heaters from all over the place with no wires, but it would stop modern electronics.

1:55:33 Speaker 1: And if we became dependent on it, it would almost be like our dependence on fossil fuels. Although it's destructive, it's very difficult for us to get off the nipple.

1:55:41 Speaker 2: It would have changed the course of how we developed, which is so interesting when you talk about if a civilization to other star system didn't even start with fossil fuels, they had one fifteen naturally on their planet and they're like cool, anti gravity's pretty awesome.

1:55:53 Speaker 1: Well, the fact that I.

1:55:54 Speaker 3: Think it's important that that actually happened, Yeah, it might have been stopped in its tracks for reason.

1:56:01 Speaker 1: WHOA, And it's just it's I think it's incredibly difficult for us to imagine technological progression under another timeline other than the one that we've experienced.

1:56:12 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's difficult if.

1:56:14 Speaker 1: We imagine what this alien race must have been like, and I mean, God, just just to be able to see something take like, I mean, obviously we've seen it in different life forms, right, Like we see the life of certain beetles in comparison to the life of certain fish, very very different existence, very different life cycles. Octopus, yeah, octopus, yeah, I mean we see all these different variables in terms of biological entities on Earth, but we don't see it in terms of technological innovation, as we're the only one that's intelligent that can innovate.

1:56:46 Speaker 1: We have intelligent creatures, but they're in the ocean. The only other thing that are like us are dolphins and orcas in whales, and they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment. And subsequently, because they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment, we put them in and we're like, get in the tank, do some tricks, right, you know.

1:57:04 Speaker 2: The only thing he saw in the craft, if we're considering Bob's story, the only thing that he saw in the craft that he related to it looked like a human could make. Was this honeycomb hatch And I always loved that because you're like obsessed with this thing that you could recognize.

1:57:19 Speaker 3: You now the read Yeah. I only focus on that because it was the one thing that I understood how it worked what wasn't and it was it was the access to the level below, and it was well, you know, if you take a you have a six pack of beer and you take out the cardboard dividers, set it on the table, you can put a lot of pressure on the top, but if you push it from the sides, it collapses flat. So it was something like that in a honeycomb shape that was essentially some sort of sheet metal and you could walk on that in the upper layer.

1:57:54 Speaker 3: But if you took the corner, stuck your finger in and pushed, it collapsed and made an entryway. So I thought that was a really unique I had never seen that before and it was the only thing in the craft that made absolute sense to me. I said, ah, we can make that, and all that is is a hatchway.

1:58:11 Speaker 1: Was there any discussion about the materials that were used to make the craft.

1:58:16 Speaker 3: I'm sure there was, but that was a metallurgy division had nothing to do with us.

1:58:20 Speaker 1: So you never got a.

1:58:22 Speaker 3: Not even the slightest briefing. I don't even know if it was a metal or it was ceramic. I think there's a fine line between the two.

1:58:30 Speaker 1: Now, one of the things that's happened to you that has allowed people to discredit you was there's obviously been some sort of an effort to erase your past. Yeah, some sort of an effort to erase your education history, your employment history at Los Almos. In fact, the only way your employment history was proven at Los Almos. So someone got a list, a directory of the employees from the past and read into it, and you were on that list. So it proved that you worked there, even though people were trying to n and they were trying to use that as a way to discredit you, that you never did work at Los Almost you weren't really real scientists.

1:59:05 Speaker 1: What was what was that like to experience? I mean, of course, we're talking about the nineteen eighties, the nineteen nineties when you could get away with something like that.

1:59:15 Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously there are a lot less, a lot less records on computers at that time. It was still file cabinets and folders. But yeah, that was frightening. That was one of the first things happened. I think it's I think George Knapp was the first one that uncovered that. I mean, he saw my birth certificate disappear.

1:59:35 Speaker 1: He disappeared. Yeah, there was no record of your being.

1:59:38 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was there was no record of that. There was no record.

1:59:42 Speaker 2: His mom tells me about that, like, it was frightening for her, for he's got a real family, you know, he's a real person. It's frightening for her.

1:59:49 Speaker 3: But if the Los Alamos thing really surprised me, and that they were so adamant that, no, this guy never worked here, don't be ridiculous. And George went back and forth, you know for the letters on the Yeah, months, I mean, it was ridiculous. But fortunately somebody came up with a nineteen eighty two phone book directory. I mean, and also originally I told you, you know, when I worked there, I was on the front page of the paper, so they were still able to archive, you know, bring that back from the archives.

2:00:20 Speaker 3: And you know, Bob Blazar a physicist working here at Los Alamos, so there was at least something there. But somehow George came up with the phone directory.

2:00:29 Speaker 2: And then George. Then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos.

2:00:33 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah. So we flew out there and I said, look, come on in, I'll show you where I worked. We'll go in, we'll meet people. And George went with me and you knowgate the place, Oh yeah, you know, met people, you know, and.

2:00:48 Speaker 1: Was also the place where they had the machine that was able to read the size of your digits.

2:00:54 Speaker 3: No, no, that was that was S four.

2:00:56 Speaker 1: That was S four, and explain that.

2:00:59 Speaker 4: So well, now this was back in the eighties.

2:01:02 Speaker 1: And this is back in the eighties where when you discuss this people like this doesn't even exist. Yeah, okay, what was it?

2:01:08 Speaker 3: It was a way you know, this is before fingerprint scanners and you know, and anything of any high resolution scanner of that time. So what it was was a device that had a little picture of a hand on a glass plate with pins in it, so you could jam your hand in there, and there was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath, and when you put your hand in there, the light would turn on and it would measure the bones in your finger because the light shone through your bones and apparently the length of the bones in your fingers are extremely unique and easy to measure, and they use that when you put your hands on there, the light would turn on and your badge would pop out.

2:01:51 Speaker 3: Oh there it is. That's it. And I tried to describe this to people and they said, that is the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard. And I said, hey, that my badge came out of that thing. I put my hand on it, badge popped out, and that's how I could open the doors and get into AS four and you know.

2:02:10 Speaker 1: And everybody discredited that, they said it was bullshit of science fiction. And Jeremy, you found this.

2:02:15 Speaker 2: I found it through a good friend of mine named Tyler rogu Away, and he had some good sources inside of fifty two where they also used these for the stealth program right around that time. So now I've got all these people that worked within who you know, said only if you're in certain programs would we use this technology. Its kind of shit. Actually, they didn't keep it for very long beginning of biometrics, so I was able to reveal it in my film. I kept my mouth shut until I showed it to Bob, you know, in the movie.

2:02:41 Speaker 2: Is the first time he saw it was how you see it in the documentary. That's his genuine reaction. I'm getting goosebumps.

2:02:46 Speaker 1: That was a great idea the way you did it.

2:02:48 Speaker 2: Thank you man, because you know it. Guess what I'm actually trying to see if he's telling the truth. That's how I started, you know, That's how I started. So it was really cool to see that and that you get to see it his actual reaction.

2:02:58 Speaker 1: Has that been verified by other people?

2:03:00 Speaker 2: Yeah? So yeah, so to me it has personally. I get emails every day and people are telling me where these are used and how they're used. In the semi photos, I got a lot of photos of IDENTI matts.

2:03:10 Speaker 1: Now, well how they were used, right, They're not how they were used us?

2:03:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't. The most recent one was way more recent than I thought, in another country. But yeah, that technology was used. So what's so funny is that this technology even in the area fifty two where they'd use him for Tonapaw, one of the guys who will go on camera and he will do an interview with me. He was a technician for one of these and he hated them because they were really bad. They always broke down and never and he was a technician for him. Now he won't tell me where if he worked at Area fifty two, so it's probably Tona, PA.

2:03:45 Speaker 2: It's very separated, even on base.

2:03:48 Speaker 1: But yeah, so there was that. Yeah, there is your education record that was also like what happened with that?

2:03:57 Speaker 3: Well that disappeared. Also, you know that I've never gone. I've never gone anywhere for education. I've never gone. I never attended any classes at Caltech. I never attended anything at MIT.

2:04:11 Speaker 1: You did ten classes in those places?

2:04:14 Speaker 3: I did a ten classes in those places.

2:04:15 Speaker 1: Do you know anybody that you went to school with? Yes? I do, And have they verified that they went to school with you? Well?

2:04:21 Speaker 3: I gave Jeremy some names. But yeah. The reason I don't say these names publicly is because every single time I mentioned a name, somebody gets into.

2:04:32 Speaker 1: I don't want to Yeah, yeah, of course, But what is that experience like seeing your birth certificate erase, seeing your employment?

2:04:42 Speaker 3: Well, it's frightening, it's it's absolutely.

2:04:45 Speaker 1: It's also the fuel that the debunkers use the so called air quote skeptics. I don't like the term skeptics. I'm want to say this pubably because I really only said this privately. I think it's a sloppy, lazy way to look at things, to just be a skeptic. I want people to be objective, and I think there's a lot of things you should be skeptical of. I think you should. You should look at things and look at things from a hard line science perspective.

2:05:13 Speaker 4: You should be objective.

2:05:15 Speaker 1: But the idea of skeptics, the problem with that is you're always looking for things to be bullshit. Yah. And I think that's dangerous because I think some things aren't bullshit.

2:05:22 Speaker 2: It's confirmation biased. On the other end, you're just deciding to take a square thing and put it in a round hole no matter what.

2:05:27 Speaker 1: And I find a lot of them to be lazy, a lot of them to be lazy thinkers, because they're always putting it into that box instead of going hmm, instead of just separating their ego. They're trying. They're playing a game, and the game is calling bullshit. I want to call bullshit, and I'm going to line up all these reasons why it's bullshit, and I'm going to ignore anything that might be contrary to that definition.

2:05:49 Speaker 4: Yeah, that does.

2:05:50 Speaker 2: Every time I'm thinking, I'm going to catch him in something. You know. All along this process I found doctor Krangle. He came forward and said, I was in security briefings with Bob Lazar, the physicist Atlas, and almost he went on the record with me. Now, the other people I talked with, why won't they go on the record with me? Because they're still working there. So that that's the difference, right, what is that? What can the public have or even.

2:06:10 Speaker 1: If they're not working there, you know, they want to live their lives. I mean, obviously people have seen what's happened to you.

2:06:16 Speaker 2: Mike Thigpin after thirty years.

2:06:18 Speaker 3: Yeah, really fond if you look at all the information on you know, concerning my accounts, that's that's verifiable. It can't possibly be a bullshit story anymore. It's really way past that point. Yeah, I mean that was my big pin is I mean, how is that? Who is this possibly?

2:06:37 Speaker 1: Now?

2:06:38 Speaker 2: Uh So, Mike big Pin was the guy that did the security clearances to go to the bait. One of the guys that was this.

2:06:45 Speaker 1: Is the guy that you work with.

2:06:46 Speaker 2: He said he did, right, and and George Knapp, you know, George didn't believe him. George put him through four polygraph tests, right, He tried to see. Man, this is a big risk. It sounds interesting, but let's see if he's telling the truth. One of the things was Bob said, there's a guy named Mike Thike Pin. He did security clearances for the Bass And that's a weird name, it's very specific. For thirty years, George found this guy in this weird department that he didn't even know. It was my big pin.

2:07:14 Speaker 2: The guy wouldn't talk to me, ghosted him totally, ghosting for thirty years. Used Facebook and Google image match through his children. I was able to find him after thirty years, and I talked to him three times on the phone. He lives on the East Coast. He almost went on camera with me. Confirmed that he did security clearances for the base in nineteen eighty nine. Confirmed he remembers Bob Lazaar. And what you don't know is there's a handwritten note that a friend of yours has from Mike. What I know, I'm gonna give it to you later.

2:07:41 Speaker 2: I don't, but that is real. That is actual, so handwritten. Oh this is what you know? Like this is so when I when.

2:07:47 Speaker 3: You're when they do security clearances, they go through all your friends and.

2:07:53 Speaker 2: Fa They go to a friend. Yeah, yeah, so this is too Bob and I had people come to me for a friend of mine that's sir, and they're doing a security cliance for him. And even though I'm like the UFO guy, they did, you know, the f back come and visit my house and make sure that they talk about my friend, and they lift a little card. And when my wife told him to get away because he didn't know who they were, they left a little card. It's super cute. Now. Back then it was a handwritten note and his friend has it for him that you haven't seen in oh my god, two decades.

2:08:22 Speaker 2: So if you're listening, what is his card? It's just a little handwritten note with Mike Thigpin's signature.

2:08:30 Speaker 1: Card like a like a like a postcard.

2:08:33 Speaker 2: Like a piece of paper that he left on the door saying when Bob gets back or whatever it says on it. So it's just another little funny thing I found. The guy he does his security clearances. He admitted to me he did it, and he admitted to me he was dodging George Knapp because when George said his name on the news, he dropped his fork into his steak or into his potatoes or whatever, and he's looking at his wife. He was in trouble. His name's never supposed to be out there, like it's just a security clearance guy.

2:08:57 Speaker 2: But you don't want national attention associated with anything Bob has to say. But anyway, this unique name, Bob said, for thirty years, and the guy ghosted George Knapp. George could prove he existed. He actually talked to me. Man, he talked to me three times. He almost went on camera with me. It's just crazy what happens after thirty years, you just get more info.

2:09:16 Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the reasons why when you and me and Jeremy and George Knapp had that conversation on the phone, I said, I think what we can do with this podcast is important. I really do. I think it's important for people to hear this from you in a very clear, just very concise way. And if you examine all the information that you've said today, if you look at all the things that the detractors have said, if you look at all of the new recent evidence that's coming out, and all these really high level people in the military and the government that are discussing this, it gives you far more credibility than you would have had in the nineteen shitties when this came out.

2:10:09 Speaker 2: Yes, you can't his story just because you don't like it anymore.

2:10:13 Speaker 1: That's why I thought it was important that you come out and refresh the world's memory and let people know. And like I said, I've been I mean, I want to say I'm a fan of yours, but I guess I'm a fan of yours as a human being. I'm a fan of yours, but I've been following you for decades. I've been following the story for decades.

2:10:28 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm kidding.

2:10:30 Speaker 2: I have VHS tape like a lot of the world has. Yeah, it's crazy.

2:10:34 Speaker 1: Well, anybody that has any sort of a vested interest or just a even just a fascination with UFOs has followed your story because there's no one else. There's no one else that comes forward. There's some guy who said, I worked underground with the aliens. They shot my hand off, Like there's a bunch of like wacky dudes. They're underground, there's bases, They're shooting lasers through the Earth's crust and I move them at light speed. There's a lot of the those guys. They seem schizophrenic, they seem crazy.

2:11:02 Speaker 1: They might even be disinformation agents. They might be people that are designed to muddy the waters, which for sure has happened.

2:11:09 Speaker 2: People are coming forward though now. It's amazing. By doing this, what you're doing, you're providing an opportunity for Bob to tell his story. You know, believe it or not, he can tell his story. It's amazing because more people will come forward now that are involved with these projects. They'll come forward to you, to me. They're coming forward, and so what you've done here is provide that opportunity if they need it, and it's amazing. I just want to say, Bob.

2:11:32 Speaker 4: Just don't come forward to me.

2:11:33 Speaker 2: No, don't come forward to Bob. Why were you freaking nauseous at the beginning of this, like so upset? Why was your why do you have a migraine? Because that started off so hard? My god, I was sitting here like did this?

2:11:46 Speaker 1: Why are you asking him why? Because of anxiety? The guy's gone to thirty fucking years of being persecuted.

2:11:54 Speaker 2: From I want to hear him say. I want them to say that you don't I step out down?

2:12:02 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I get it.

2:12:03 Speaker 2: You were you were.

2:12:04 Speaker 1: It was hard for you to get them here, you know, and I appreciate for us. Yeah you wow, You don't.

2:12:09 Speaker 3: What really annoys me are the people that think, you know, you guys just came up with the story to make a bunch of money or get a bunch of you know, attention.

2:12:16 Speaker 1: And that's a good point. So please explain that I don't.

2:12:19 Speaker 3: Get any money out of this at all. And I may. I didn't even let you guys buy plane tickets for me to come out here or anything. I mean anytime. Like when Jeremy uh pre previewed I guess the movie up in Michigan, I mean they it brought in like a couple thousand dollars. I made sure that two thousand dollars went to science programs at the local high schools there.

2:12:42 Speaker 2: I don't dirty money.

2:12:43 Speaker 1: I don't want to touch it.

2:12:44 Speaker 3: I don't take any money from this stuff. And as far as attention, I hate fucking attention. I don't like being on shows. I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing. So it's I got enough hugs when I was a kid, Okay, I don't need any attention. So no that if if you if you think somehow we came up with this thing, then you got to tell me why we did it.

2:13:08 Speaker 1: Well, you've done a great job of making sure you have your basis covered in that regard that you haven't profited off of this, and like you said that you have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs. It's I mean it. It doesn't make any sense any other way. I mean, what you're what I've gotten out of here is what I thought I was going to get out of here when I watched the documentary that you what you're saying makes sense. It doesn't make sense that it's bullshit.

2:13:34 Speaker 3: It happened exactly like I said it did.

2:13:36 Speaker 1: Joe, I believe you. In closing, is there anything else you'd like to say?

2:13:43 Speaker 3: No, I can't think of anything other than really don't come and try to visit me.

2:13:49 Speaker 1: Well, I know that you have paid a huge personal cost to get this information out, and I mean maybe you didn't understand what that cost would have been when you first initially came forward with the story, But over the past thirty years it's been immense. It's been great, and I just want to thank you for that and thank you for all these people that would not have gotten this information. It would not have really had this story any other way.

2:14:13 Speaker 4: Oh, thanks Joe, thank.

2:14:14 Speaker 1: You, and thank you Jeremy. And one more time. The documentary is available on Netflix right now.

2:14:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called Bob Lazar Area fifty one Flying Saucers.

2:14:23 Speaker 1: All right, that's it, folks, good night, Thank you

2:14:29 Speaker 2: JA yeah d