ROBERT BIGELOW On JRE: The Search for Life Beyond Earth, & After Death SPECIAL PRESENTATION

0:02 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out.

0:04 Speaker 2: But Joe Rogan Experience Train by Day, Joe Rogan Podcast, by Night, All Day one. Mister Bigwill, Hello, good morning, Pleasure for noon.

0:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, pleasure to meet you, Pleasure to get to talk to you. And I really appreciate you coming on. Here's a lot to me. You and I have some shared interests, clearly in the world of UFOs, but I want to talk. Most people know of you because of Bigelow Aerospace. They know that you're this billionaire investor and you're a very successful businessman, but you have a deep fascination with UFOs.

0:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure do.

0:45 Speaker 1: How did this all get started?

0:50 Speaker 2: Back when I was about three years old, which would be about nineteen forty seven, and actually a May of that year, my grandparents had a very close encounter. It was dramatic, and they were taking an afternoon evening drive in the late afternoon up into the mountains and coming on back down to Las Vegas, and they saw what appeared to be at first an airplane on fire, and the object became closer and closer to them, and they pulled off to the side of the road and at one point then it filled up the windshield and they thought they were going to die, and the last second it shot off and disappeared.

1:37 Speaker 2: And I learned of this story when I was probably ten years old, and because I was three at the time and my mother had told me this story. So I approached my grandfather and he wouldn't talk about it. Now after all these years, like seven years have gone by, because I was intrigued with it, and uh, So I went to my grandmother and she only would say a few words, but she wouldn't talk. So I got the story from my mom and and they had my grandfather had to sit on the side of the road there in the car for a while to recompose himself and because they thought they were they were going to die and uh, and then he finally was able to drive on back to Las Vegas.

2:28 Speaker 2: So that was the beginning for me.

2:30 Speaker 1: Did you ever describe what you said? It looked like a plane on fire, but like, what was the shape of it as it got closer.

2:36 Speaker 2: I don't recall any kind of shape that was that was uh, this gymother described, I don't recall that.

2:43 Speaker 1: But they just knew it wasn't a plane. They knew it was that's right. That's right.

2:47 Speaker 2: So in the family, you know, in the family, the family had an event, and I lived right next door to my grandparents, and the family had an event that kind of started things that date. For me, other personal things came later, but for the family, that was a big deal.

3:06 Speaker 1: So this was you said forty seven, and forty seven was the time of the Roswell crash. Forty seven was a time there was a lot of UFO activity being observed worldwide. And the speculation is that this had to do with the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all the tests that the United States had done and Russia had done, and that there was a lot of interest in obviously in that well, actually Russia hadn't dropped any bombs by that time, right, right, It was after that, but that there was interest in our species by extraterrestrials because they let, oh, these crazy assholes are detonating nukes, like, let's let's go take a look at them.

3:47 Speaker 2: Right. Well, you had so called foo fighters during the war, these lights that were following bombers, and the tail gunners were the ones that saw them most often, of course, and uh, and then that happened through through the war and then and then of course Roswell. But before that was Kent Ken Arnold right in about June juneish, and then in July eighth was Roswell.

4:15 Speaker 1: And there's a direct uptick though from the Trinity experiments, right.

4:20 Speaker 2: I think I I I gather my feeling simply is that without any kind of other other evidence, are proof that that was a huge stimulus.

4:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was around that time. Then you had heard about this as a part of you know, family discussions, right, and so that sort of ignited the fire initially.

4:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I started asking my friends, as I say, when I was about ten, uh, you know, have you any any reports in your family of anything? And and by golly, a couple of my close friends told me things that they had never told me before. Uh. So you know, it wasn't that wasn't necessarily an exclusive event, That's what I'm saying. Other people in Las Vegas had seen things at close proximity as well.

5:13 Speaker 1: Now, your relationship to this is obviously something that you've carried for so long. It's been an obsession of yours for so long. Yeah, it started with this, But what personal experiences if any of you had.

5:28 Speaker 2: Well, when I was probably seven or so, seven or eight,

5:35 Speaker 2: I used to have what I chalked up all my life to just being silly dreams. And I had maybe five or six of these dreams, and I could never make sense of them. And I would be laying in bed on my side, and a typical dream always the same. There would be three short somebody something's in kind of monk robe, and so I couldn't see me, face, couldn't see me, appendages, and then these three whatevers were standing there and they were not too far from my eye level as far as the heights and so forth, so the child size, yeah, yeah, And so there was nothing in the I was an avid comic book reader, but there was nothing in the in the whole genre of comic books that related to that or movies.

6:26 Speaker 2: And we didn't have television in Las Vegas till fifty three or fifty four, and even after that it was terrible broadcasting, you know, at first. But so it made no sense to me, and so over my lifetime I never mentioned it to anybody, including my wife. You know, it's funny how you keep things secret and just kind of for no good reason. Maybe I was be embarrassed to talk about it, but I finally thought, well, you know, maybe it was just dreams, maybe it was something else. And so that was a first event personally that I had at that time in the subject.

7:07 Speaker 1: When did you start to connect the idea of these tiny people or human like things with extraterrestrials.

7:15 Speaker 2: Well, years later, when I began to start my process as a researcher and as a student in the subject, and began to talk with people who were who made up their business to be experts and abductions. And the more I got into the field and sat writing out questions for the researcher, for the therapist who would be asking the questions, and I'd be sitting there watching the process, and just over time I thought, well, you know, maybe there was something more to it, but I'm better off not knowing anything, so I'll just block it off and forget about it.

8:00 Speaker 1: Yeah. We talked last night about John Mack a little bit, the Harvard A great guy. Yeah, and he did a lot of these sort of hypnotic aggression sessions with people where they describe very similar scenarios.

8:15 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, a multitude of different situations. The adduction phenomena was very proliferate in the population. It seemed like even We did a survey called a roper pole and we repeated it three times so that the margin of air was really reduced to like one one and a half percent. And abduction researchers came up with the ten questions, and so they we distributed that, and the conclusion was of a fairly relatively sizeable percentage of the population had some kind of experience as according to them, according to the researchers, and according to the poll.

9:05 Speaker 2: I am not qualified to speak to the accuracy of whether the questions were that relevant to the conclusions or not, but that's what they said. So, and I had, in my own research found people that I put them through a regression, not personally, but I found a hypnotherapist that could do that. And I found a number of people just here there, scattered around, maybe somebody in my own staff, and they would come up with these these stories and these events.

9:40 Speaker 1: One of the criticisms of John Mack and hypnotic regression in general is that the idea that you can put the idea that you can put a memory into someone's head, that you could suggest things and you could create false memories. And this was something that I've read in the criticism of his work that this style of hypnotical and bringing up these very specific scenarios to a bunch of different people you can sort of help create, especially in people that are easily influenced or people that are open to suggestion, you could put these false memories in their head.

10:17 Speaker 1: And so, you know, especially when you're dealing with something as fantastic as a UFO or alien abduction or visitation or something like that.

10:27 Speaker 2: Oh, that's definitely possible. There's also something called screen memory. But dealing with the first the power suggestion, that's absolutely true. But my experience was with different hypnotherapists they went out of their way. In fact, maybe if they did make a suggestion, it was just the opposite. They might say, okay, you're on board this craft. You know where's the where's the lighting coming from? Is it coming from the corner or of the of the room that you're in, Well, there were no corners, and they'd be corrected right away by the person being hepnotized.

11:02 Speaker 2: And so they went just the opposite direction on purpose to make suggestions to maybe coax the person to come that direction, and they wouldn't do it. The person wouldn't do it. Screen memory is different. Supposedly, if somebody has a very close encounter with supposedly somebody that's that's et, you leave that that the memory turns out to be entirely different, and that's put into you consciously, and you recall something entirely different than what actually happened. Maybe you saw deer too, deer on the road or something of that sort, or maybe there were owls or whatever.

11:47 Speaker 2: So that's what's purported to be.

11:51 Speaker 1: What's crazy to me is if you go back to Betty and Barney Hill, if you go to Travis Walton, if you go a lot of these abduction experiences, people that did not know each other, and particularly we're talking about before social media, before any of this stuff, right, they have very similar stories, like similar to a disturbing extent.

12:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Betty Barney, Betty and Barney Hill was accidental. You know. I think somebody had Betty or Barney had a sleep problem and they went to try to get some therapy for a sleeping disorder. I think there was some kind of connection like that, but it didn't have to do with Oh, my gosh, we have this recollection. The story evolved through the therapy and in order to try to fix this other problem. All of a sudden, this story starts just to flow out. And so I don't know whether it was Betty first and then Barney later.

12:47 Speaker 2: And I think Barney resisted going under hypnosis, I believe, and then everything just started pouring out.

12:55 Speaker 1: So there's a woman named Angela Hill. She's a top UFC fighter, and she's actually the grand daughter of Betty and Barney.

13:02 Speaker 2: Kid.

13:02 Speaker 1: It's crazy, and I didn't know about it until after we did a conversation. I was interviewing her, just talking to her about her fighting career. Yeah, and at the end of the conversation, she like, when we were done wrapping up and about to leave, She's like, oh, I forgot to tell you. And then she tells me that her grandparents were Betty and Barney Hill. Like, what, It's amazing that was her grandfather.

13:22 Speaker 2: Did you inquire? Did you ask?

13:23 Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about it. Yeah, we talked about it, and she, you know, she didn't have much of a memory of him, but you know, her parents recalled the scenes that he described, and you know, obviously it became this huge national story. I mean, I remember hearing about it when I was a kid, so sure it was in the nineteen fifties, right, yes, yeah, And there was no there was no archetype that you would sort of model, you know, your memories after. I would wonder, like if I ever did hypnotic regression today, I would I would be very skeptical of my own memories because I've heard so many stories of these spaceship encounters.

14:03 Speaker 1: I've talked to people like Travis Walton, I've talked to people like Bob Lazar. I've talked to these people that have had these experiences with these things. I would want I would think that my memory might be tainted by my expectations. But you can't say that about Betty and Barney Hill, these people they had There was no stories like that before then. This is not some pop culture thing that they were latching onto. And even the way they described these creatures, the similarities between their descriptions and Travis Walton's descriptions, you know, twenty plus years later, it's very eerie.

14:37 Speaker 2: Right right right, And the same thing with well, like Ken Arnold's sightings, you know that was that was virgin territory back then in forty six.

14:47 Speaker 1: Explain that to people.

14:48 Speaker 2: Well, so Ken Arnold was a pilot, and.

14:53 Speaker 1: That's in that movie Phenomenon, right, isn't it described in that maybe? So Phenomenon maybe?

15:00 Speaker 2: And so he was flying over Mount Shast or somewhere in Washington there and saw these objects, nine objects kind of skipping along in formation, and he, being a professional pilot, was able to estimate their speed calculate that and they were traveling way too fast for conventional aircraft. And the shape that he described was I've always thought them of them a little bit of a manta ray shape without the tail, kind of a little bit of a curve boomerang kind of shape to the craft. And that got an awful lot of attention because he was a very credible fellow, as were other people that later revealed their own sightings.

15:47 Speaker 2: Military backgrounds, people that had major rank or captain rank, you know, so they had they had stories you would listen to and about their experiences because they were professional observers in the military.

16:03 Speaker 1: And actually, while we were out eating dinner last night, Dan Crenshaw sent me a text and I shared it with everybody at the table, and it's from American Airlines pilots that saw some spectacular sighting over the last couple of days, and they're, you know, trying to figure out what the hell these people saw, but something that sped by them at some insane rates of speed, and there's a recording of them discussing.

16:31 Speaker 2: Whether it's abnormal or conventional. That should never have happened in that proximity to that aircraft. So if it were an accident, that's a really bad accident to come that close. And if it were flying in the line of flight and it sped that fast over its head, it was really moving.

16:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it was a conventional commercial aircraft go four hundred plus miles an hour. American Airlines pilot reports seeing UFO. An American Airlines pilot reported scene a long cylindrical object flying right over the top of the plane as he was flying. Sunday's American Airlines flight AA two two nine two was operating from Cincinnati to Phoenix using an Airbus A three twenty aircraft over the northeast portion of New Mexico at thirty seven thousand feet during what was otherwise a routine flight.

17:20 Speaker 1: One of the pilots contacted air traffic control at Albuquerque Center. He said, do you have any targets up here? We just had something go right over the top of us. I hate to say this, but it looked like a long cylindrical object that almost looked like a cruise missile type of thing, moving really fast right over the top of us.

17:36 Speaker 2: So what's missing is propulsion signature, right, So that should have been evident that it had some kind of propulsion. The exhaust owner, some kind of exhaust was was going on, right, You would think that they could detect that if it were in the line of side, if they were if they were behind it.

17:55 Speaker 1: Well that's a very short description though. I mean, maybe it did have some sort of propulsion that they saw. That's all we saw. I mean, maybe there's a report that'll come out where they describe it in detail. That's just them calling it in right.

18:07 Speaker 2: Yeah. If it's not super unique, then was one hell of a mistake, right.

18:10 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but it's just Yeah, there's a lot of those, that's the problem. There's there's a lot of these, and there's there's video of them, like the one what is it, the one that's on the East coast that's moving over the surface of the water and insane rates of speed, and you see it. It's also no heat signature, no obvious method of propulsion, and it doesn't exhibit because that one was done I believe it was infrared the camera, so you should have been able to see some exhaust or some heat signature that was showing how it was being propelled at that insane rates of speed.

18:46 Speaker 1: And you hear these pilots who are used to flying these they're flying fighter jets, and they're like, holy shit, look at this thing, and they're you know, they're kind of freaking out.

18:55 Speaker 2: Well, the good news is there's there are so many more people with amazons with cell phones these days, and so you have a much more aware of public than you did. What twenty five years ago in nineteen ninety seven was the so called Phoenix Lights, and they weren't just lights because that craft started from northern Arizona some say maybe Clark County, Nevada area, and proceeded down south toward Phoenix in the twilight of the evening, where thousands of people saw structure. It wasn't just lights, It wasn't just could it be confused with flares dropping aircraft dropping flares, and no such things had occurred anyway at that time of day.

19:45 Speaker 2: And so people saw structure, and the structure was estimated what quarter mile maybe from tip to boomerang kind of shape, kind of craft. And yet it could have been a really big deal newswise right over a major city, so many observers, and but it wasn't. And then you had but.

20:11 Speaker 1: It was though, right because we all know about it well.

20:13 Speaker 2: But then, of course the governor at the time was Fife Syrington, and we know now that he didn't know what to do because he was an actual witness that he admitted to ten years later of actually being a witness, right, but he didn't know how to address that.

20:30 Speaker 1: That was the famous press conference. That was a famous press conference had a guy dress up like an alien.

20:35 Speaker 2: On the stage of it exactly had just if he had done just the opposite, what might have happened on that with his testimony as being a witness a governor of a state and then draw that other people then might have come forth more and more volume of folks saying, yeah, me too, I saw it. I saw it.

20:53 Speaker 1: With your understanding of the way the government sort of processes this kind of inform that it's not. It's not available to everybody, and the information in terms of like what these things are, what they aren't, whether or not they're some sort of top secret aircraft that the government is working on or whatever it is, they don't unless they're making press conferences about these things, they don't necessarily want to broadcast what it is, and they certainly don't want to broadcast it if it's not one of ours.

21:27 Speaker 1: Do you think that they contacted the governor and informed him that he needed to make a mockery of this, or do you think it was his own personal decision.

21:36 Speaker 2: My failing is it was his personal decision, and my feeling is that the government is not that organized anymore. Maybe it was back some quite a while back, but I don't think that I think that denial is able to be to be carried forth without government encouragement.

22:03 Speaker 1: So he probably did just to calm everybody down. Yeah, it probably felt tremendous pressure, right because I remember this was an enormous story. I mean, it was going all across the United States as people were talking about it, and then there was all sorts of sort of semi reasonable explanations about dropping flares The thing about the dropping flares though, were that they hovered in the sky for a long time, like it didn't make any sense at flared, Like are they defying gravity? How are they just because there's video footage of it from multiple sources, home footage where people are filming these things, where these these red lights that are just hovering in the sky, but the red lights coincided with these triangular shaped vehicles or boomerang shaped vehicles that other people were seeing.

22:46 Speaker 2: Well, there were people living on Camelback Mountain and that this is how low this craft was to the surface, is it they got an edge on view, Yeah, coming practically at them, just slightly over and went over them.

23:00 Speaker 1: But there's no video of that, right, not.

23:02 Speaker 2: That I don't know there could be, I've never seen.

23:06 Speaker 1: This was ninety ninety seven. Yeah, yeah, see that's you know, phones back then, not everybody had a phone, and they didn't have good cameras.

23:16 Speaker 2: Right.

23:16 Speaker 1: The thing about even today, you know with cameras and most cell phone cameras aren't capable of seeing things at a zoom. With the exception of the Samsung Galaxy series, the new ones, they actually have a setting where you could take photographs of the moon because they have some pretty spectacular zoom capabilities. It's pretty interesting stuff. And if you got one of those and you saw something this guy, maybe you could zoom in on it and get a good shot of it. But you know, you're talking about things traveling and in saying rates of speed, that's very far away, you're really not going to get much anyway.

23:50 Speaker 2: No, it's got to be much closer to really have definition of what it is you're looking at.

23:55 Speaker 1: Now. There was a story quite recently of a pilot in a fighter jet that took a photograph of some similar shaped object, some triangular shaped object, and apparently it was very very clear image. It was a very clear image, and there was some speculation about people releasing this and that they were going to release it, and there was hesitation about releasing it. Do you know about this well?

24:20 Speaker 2: Is that the one off the East coast real recently? No, I'm not familiar with that.

24:26 Speaker 1: There was do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie? I think we discussed it. With the picture that you can see they zoomed in on the picture apparently is bullshit. That picture apparently is not real.

24:36 Speaker 2: But there was one taken by a pilot in the plane. Yeah, but a couple two three years ago sometime.

24:43 Speaker 1: Oh, different ones. See. This is a Pentagon response to release a photo taken from Navy pilot showing unidentified objects. I heard that this was nonsense. I heard from people that are in the know that this is not the image that they're talking about, the one they have. This is according people that are in the military, the one that they have is much clearer than this.

25:03 Speaker 2: There's more than one image right there.

25:05 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe.

25:06 Speaker 2: Maybe talking about different ones.

25:08 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know. Okay, breaking sorry, Breaking Debrief Media has learned the leak of an unclassified photo said to have been widely distributed in the intelligence community, which proportedly shows what the DoD is characterized as unidentified aerial phenomenon. I don't know if that's see. Look, obviously I'm just talking out of my ass, But what I had heard was that that was not the image in question, that there was a much, much clear image in question. That was pretty stunning that they were debating on whether or not to release.

25:36 Speaker 1: Because once The New York Times in twenty seventeen published that front page article that showed some of those images that have been captured from the video cameras and that Fighter Jets experiences and talked about Commander David Fraver's experience with the TIC tac ufo off the coast of San Diego. That sort of like released a lot of pressure on the concept of if you discuss these things, you're a foolish person, right for a long time, And I'm sure you must have experienced this because you've been in the game for a long time, right, discussing UFOs in nineteen seventy or in nineteen eighty, like people would look at you like you're probably crazy or something.

26:19 Speaker 2: Right, I was too busy being in business in those years.

26:23 Speaker 1: You didn't care.

26:25 Speaker 2: I had a little plan I was following that I put together when I was a kid, and I was on a mission to be in business to acquire resources so that I could someday have fun chasing this stuff.

26:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the more interesting things about you, Like you became like a hotel tycoon and a real estate tycoon, gathered up all this money so that you could study UFOs.

26:51 Speaker 2: And do fun things maybe in space.

26:53 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you've also been involved in creating shelters and structures that people can actually live in and space, right that's the genesis and the genesis what.

27:03 Speaker 2: We call it to B three thirty is what we have on our plant right now is engineering units, which are flight units far as hull and bulkheads are concerned and Lingerion's and so we had to shut down because of the COVID and but we have very advanced structures.

27:29 Speaker 1: Yeah, and these have been implemented too, some of them have actually been you've actually put these things.

27:34 Speaker 2: We have a TRL nine because we have a structure scale structure that's on the ISS now.

27:44 Speaker 1: Yeah. So your dream in a lot of ways of getting involved in aerospace and in space travel, like you're this is real, Like, yeah, you're a guy who actually has contracts with you know, big government.

27:58 Speaker 2: Not that I've ever made money back, you know, it's been a bottomless pit. Yeah.

28:03 Speaker 1: Sure, So you've just done it as a passion on a.

28:07 Speaker 2: Maybe a hope and a prayer, you know kind of thing. Hail Mary's.

28:11 Speaker 1: And part of it is because of your obsession with extraterrestrials.

28:17 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I don't know, I don't know. Probably that probably is a connection there because you're made aware that there is a whole lot more out there than what we know and what people think, so that there probably is a connection was always was.

28:37 Speaker 1: Do you have any images of that? See, let's pull it up so people can see what we're talking about the stuff that you've created. Yeah, so this.

28:43 Speaker 2: One, so that's an older version that we did quite a long time ago. We have a full scale that's that's just a one third scale basic architectural features and accommodations for a living.

29:02 Speaker 1: Space.

29:03 Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I think those are those are full scale architectural renderings now down at the bottom. Okay, okay, so

29:16 Speaker 2: that's full scale.

29:17 Speaker 1: That one right there.

29:17 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's an old version, but that's a full scale. That's three hundred and thirty quebec meters and it's a it's a more crude mock up than what we have now. And the standard volume on a module for the ISS is about one hundred and twenty or the largest is aroun one hundred and twenty qubic meters, So three thirty is about you know, three almost three times that.

29:40 Speaker 1: So when you design one of these things, or when you go into business to create one of these things, what's the steps that you're taking? You do you contact engineers do you bring in? I mean, how do you how do you decide that you want to go into business to make these things? And how do you go about implementing it?

29:59 Speaker 2: So you know, it was it's been a twenty year process, and first you try to try to engineer. In fact, I had nothing about about the origination was original with me because I became incredulous about what NASA had done in the uh in the early nineties with something called the Transhab and it was a vehicle to take people to Mars, and Congress cut the funding for that, and oh my god, how could they do such a thing because it was very apparent, apparent that that that craft was really cool for a lot of reasons.

30:50 Speaker 2: And so I started the company, started putting money in it, and started going after that, and then after about three years, acquired a license license to use their patent for just for the enclosure. No book of instructions came with it. There wasn't a manual saying here's how you do this, and so we started from scratch, and we had no assistance from NASA whatsoever in arranging architectures and engineering. And then through a process of trial and error and testing and testing and testing destructive testing, long duration leak tests destructive because you had to try to quantify the strength of the materials, and we were using factors much more demanding than the factors for metallics, factors of four instead of metallics maybe one in a quarter or something.

31:48 Speaker 2: And

31:51 Speaker 2: we finally engineered envelopes that were very durable. Ballistically, did a lot of what's called hypervelocity impacts tests where you shoot a particle at about seven kilometers a second six to seven depending on the type of gas gun you're using, and seeing how well the structure can defend against something going that fast. Actually, the defense on something going fast is easier than a particle going slower, like a bullet for example. Kind of crazy, but for some reason.

32:30 Speaker 1: And when you mean defense you mean something like micromediors or space.

32:34 Speaker 2: Yeah, actually smaller than that, you know, maybe the size of a centimeter, which is actually a big particle historically to hit something, you know, like the station or whatever.

32:46 Speaker 2: I think maybe some of the solar rays have been hit by something that large. But so you're defending against also radiation. Aluminum structures are not what you want to be inside, especially for deep space missions. Outside of LEO lower Earth orbit and uh, there's something called secondary radiation that that propagates. So and the background galactic radiation has heavy protons and it's it's more lethal.

33:17 Speaker 1: So what did you do to shield your habitats from radiation?

33:22 Speaker 2: Well, the hall has no aluminum structure, so and the hall is a matrix of many layers of different kinds of materials. And those materials are like kevlar, you know, or vectran. We use vectran a little bit for a couple of reasons, but it's like kevlar. And so through a series of other materials in addition to to that type of material you start to evolve a shield. And the shield on a B three thirty overall is about fifteen to eighteen inches thick, and there is there are spaces in between layers. So it's not as though you can press it and it's going to be a foot and a half thick.

34:24 Speaker 2: But it's those spaces that make a difference and how debris breaks up and finally just becomes dust or if it's too fast and too large, it's not dust. It's going to succeed on going through and when.

34:39 Speaker 1: It does, is there a patch method?

34:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, used to. First of all, you have to maybe locate there could be things on the hall that are in the way because you use the hall as an attaching surface and so that volume is very useful. And so assuming you've located it now, and it depends on the size of the particle. If it actually was significantly large, it blow off whatever it was attached to the hole. You just put another hole right through whatever is attached, so it'd be easier to find the hole. That's the good news. Bad news. The gases you know, you're gas is escaping a lot faster, so you do have some time, though in a large volume, for that gas to totally escape.

35:21 Speaker 2: So then you have to make a judgment as to, uh, do you have time to create the patch, And it's actually fairly simple process because anything you put there wants to stick to the wall, right but depending on a basketball size something. Uh, there's not an explosion, It doesn't go boom like a balloon. It just loses gas. You know, your air and so you probably have time to go to the airlock unless you're on the pot or escape. You'd have time to escape.

35:53 Speaker 1: But that would be the move you really wouldn't you want.

35:55 Speaker 2: To Yeah, you want to be able to go someplace else, and you know, hopefully you're attached to something that can calm whoever's on board.

36:01 Speaker 1: Why did this become your area of specialty when it comes to aerospace, Like, why did you invest in this? Why did you invest in habitats?

36:11 Speaker 2: Well, at first I played around with some other companies. I invested in two or three other companies in the late nineties. One they were rocketplane type companies. I came very close to investing in what Bert Rutan was creating before Virgin came along, and so I was looking for some place to go, some to put capital, money and energy and passion into something. And so I did these investments in these different companies, and then I stumbled on the transab. You know, So.

36:52 Speaker 1: Your initial idea was maybe some sort of commercial space travel type investment, something like Virgin Galactic or some like.

37:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, I really didn't know. I think the most enticing thing was what Bert was working on, and and that the financial model for that was very attractive, and I think he was. Of course, he's a aircraft design genius. He has so many awards you hardly can count them as you walk down the hallway to his office. It's like floor to ceiling plaques, you know. Yeah, got a couple lecture just for souvenirs, you know something, you know. But and so he's he's a total genius. And he, by the way, had his own UFO siding that has stayed with him all his life.

37:44 Speaker 1: How old was he?

37:45 Speaker 2: I don't know. You'll have to get that story from him, but it's worth listening to. So many people have you know. So anyway, that's how I started in that and I fell in love with the concept of expandable systems, paunching something with a finite firing diameter and length and being able to triple the size of that volume once it's ejected and it's it's launched, you know, and the firing opens up and now you start to expand and inflate and wow, all that you can do with that volume is really cool.

38:21 Speaker 1: And so this allowed you to I mean, these contracts if you're doing with the is are they with NASA or like? Who is that? Who you work with?

38:32 Speaker 2: Yeah? And NASA's that basically has been the only game in town for us and for most folks, most folks in the rocket business other than for the Air Force, who buys launches for satellites. NASA is the game still, and when NASA is financially hurting, everybody hurts. Depending upon who who is providing the leadership, both in Congress and in NASA and in the White House, you can do fantastic things. So it's all a combination of whether or not people can all work together. If they're fighting in Congress and going on, you're not going to get much.

39:11 Speaker 2: You're not going to go places like you could. Yeah.

39:15 Speaker 1: So with you being involved in this and creating these habitats and your long standing obsession with UFOs and the potential alien life, getting involved with NASA must have been pretty exciting. You're like, well, maybe I'm going to learn something now.

39:30 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, you're definitely going to learn. Absolutely. They have a lot of good people and very expert people, so you're going to learn a lot. It's a great place to sponge all that you can.

39:47 Speaker 1: I mean, learn things about UFOs and alien.

39:50 Speaker 2: Life all that, all that. Oh, no, I was back, I was back about you know, space, conventional space travel.

39:58 Speaker 1: Well that too. The basically to learn.

40:02 Speaker 2: You're not going to learn anything about UFOs and et from the vast, vast vast, vast majority of the scientific community, and that includes NASA and everybody else.

40:15 Speaker 1: Are they not interested?

40:18 Speaker 2: I think it's a combination of things. I think the reason for that is not because they're not interested, and a lot of people are. Because I'm asked things all the time, a lot of people are. I think there's always the concern of embarrassment. I think they're not in a position to be an investigator. They might have a passion and want to do that, but it takes time. It takes time and effort to go do those things, and usually you want to stick to what your career is, right. So,

40:50 Speaker 2: and maybe they they've had somebody in their family that has had a tremendous story and so they'll carry that with them. They might be they might buy the books, they keep it home, they might brown bag it, you know, not bring it to the lunch at commissary where other people can see what you're reading, you know. So it's all different kinds of things. So everybody's different, right.

41:13 Speaker 1: So there's kind of a maybe a shame or something along that line involved in pursuing extraterrestrial ideas.

41:22 Speaker 2: Not as much as it used to be. Now it was much worse twenty thirty years ago. What was it like then, Well, as I could speak to you know, just the general science population was much more reticent to talk about UFOs thirty years ago, I think than today. There's been so much more exposure on the media. So because you have regular television program now on aliens, ET's ancient aliens, whatever, doesn't matter. It's all over the place compared to twenty five years ago. It's a it's a different kind of world.

42:03 Speaker 2: But the thing about the UFO E T subject as you continue to do research and work in that whole community, is kind of a strange frustration about acquiring a little bit of a taste of understanding about the possibilities of locomotion of movement and where we are that we're still working with fire engines, you know, and thank God for people like Elon and Jeff Bezos. I really respect those guys, and including Elon's secret weapon, Gwen, you know, his president. Those are the country is so lucky to have them.

42:55 Speaker 2: But the dynamicism of UFOs and ets is so overwhelming as to what that world is like, and if it's all true, or even some of it true, it's more than just a holy cow, it's oh my god. You know. So it's like night and day comparison, and here we are still in twenty twenty one and still waiting to get back to the moon.

43:22 Speaker 1: Well, I think when we were talking earlier about the New York Times article, I think that was a real pivotal moment in the culture's acceptance of the concept of these things, because when you see something like that printed on the front page of the New York Times, when you see like people like Command of Favor, yea very well respected you know, all full respect, no one, No one thinks that guy's a kook. Oh no. You read about his experiences and you go, okay, there's something to this.

43:54 Speaker 2: And Leslie Keane, the journalist that did that article, did a terrific job. Fantastic job.

44:00 Speaker 1: It's a dangerous subject for someone, Yeah, that is you're open to ridicule, But the preponderance of evidence had gotten to the point where there was enough out there we could say, listen, this is not something to be mocked anymore. There's something to this, right, that's right.

44:15 Speaker 2: When you have you have like Commander Favor, and we hired Douga, one of the pilots there. We learned about that in eight. The event happened in four. So you have really credible people seeing something that's totally anomaloust that has no business doing what it's doing, right, So you got to take it really seriously.

44:38 Speaker 1: Not only things that have been tracked by instrumentation, things that have gone from it's like eighty thousand feet above sea level to one foot in less than a second and then traveled to the agreed upon destination where the plane is going to go later like that, they knew it, knew where they were traveling to, it was able to travel at an insane rate of speed. That's not even it doesn't make any sense with any technology that we've ever even theorized. No, So these are these are things that were tracked by instrumentation.

45:16 Speaker 1: So it's not this is the best instrumentation. This is instrumentation that's used by the United States Military to protect the boards. It's all the real shit. So when you read things like that in the New York Times, everybody has to going and go huh yeah, okay.

45:30 Speaker 2: And then and you couple that with hundreds of thousands or millions of other events and stories that have happened over the last fifty sixty seventy years. You think, oh my god, we're so far behind, you know, of what else is going on?

45:47 Speaker 1: Right, because we've been so afraid of ridicules.

45:50 Speaker 2: How long is it going to take us to get to that point?

45:52 Speaker 1: Right?

45:53 Speaker 2: You know? And do we even understand even the beginnings of the physics of it? Because what if there are a consciousness of rate it? You know, that's it. You don't have the right metal signature, It isn't going anywhere. Nothing is coming on now, there's no lights. The dash didn't a light up, right, So.

46:10 Speaker 1: Sort of like when you walk up to your car, like I have a Ford f one fifty, when I get near it, it knows I'm there because my keyfob. Sure, you know, when I touch the handle or like a somebody else.

46:23 Speaker 2: Has key fob, Yes, it's gonna it's gonna light up.

46:26 Speaker 1: But instead of it being like like a Tesla keyfob, when you get to it, the handle opens up so you could open the door. I guess you get close to it's pretty cool, Yeah, sure, but instead of that, it's actually your consciousness.

46:39 Speaker 2: And what if you're not even close to it? Yeah, what if you're on the other side of the planet and you want.

46:43 Speaker 1: It to start like you can with a car with a with an application, Like if you have a Tesla, you could roll your windows up with an app. You can lock it with the app, right, it operates through Wi Fi. Who's to say they can't do something like that with with consciousness.

46:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have no no idea.

47:00 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not even that's not even outside of what makes sense. You know, if you looked at like if you followed the technology and the technological improvements over the last fifteen twenty years, and you explored the possibility of what could be done in the next hundred or a thousand or one hundred thousand years, but yeah, that's not even crazy.

47:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in physics is incomplete in my humble opinion, because it doesn't provide answers for all the paranormal basket, not just what we're talking about with at UFOs, but all the other kinds of stuff that has done and has been done in laboratories for many, many years on camera by people that have performed really strange things.

47:51 Speaker 1: You mean, like quantum mechanics and no.

47:53 Speaker 2: No, like micro macro piquet. Something just takes something simple. What is that Michael, just manipulating material objects, whether they're electrons and so or or a bottle cap. And so you're let's say you've got a screen computer and you've got to it's hooked up to a random event generator and which is flipping a coin, you know, many many hundreds of thousands of times a second, and it's establishing a firm even line this fifty to fifty across your screen. And then there's another line coming along, and your challenge is to is to have the two lines deviate, so you're you're and I don't know, it's been so many years since I was in the pair of lab with Bob john And and Brenda Dunn.

48:48 Speaker 2: I forget the exact details on this, but the point was there was a line that was created, a second line that you were to think about and try to deviate that line, and you should not be able to do that at all. So they had maybe one flat line on the screen, and then you had this random event generator that should be fifty to fifty right alongside that same line, but it's not. You're causing it to go up or you're causing it to go down. And they had a lot of people successful on this many many many, and they did just a huge number of trials that were successful.

49:20 Speaker 2: So that's in the smallest context. You had. Well, that Russian woman, uh, Colignia something like that was her name, that worked with objects in a bell jar and she would be able to manipulate to them, cause them to spind, cause them.

49:36 Speaker 1: To lift and objects what kind of objects?

49:39 Speaker 2: Small objects? You know, something something small, microscopic No no, no, no, like a bottle cap, you know, something that size.

49:47 Speaker 1: So some sort of telekinesis macro piquet.

49:52 Speaker 2: So you're it's some kind of a consciousness connection that is causing the effect that effect on that object.

50:00 Speaker 1: This is something that's been filmed. Yeah, so this woman is doing.

50:05 Speaker 2: What and she died at a relatively young age. Her heart they said, would go up to like one hundred and eighty beats or ninety beats a minute.

50:13 Speaker 1: And I while she was doing this, yeah, and she was just just as this lady, Well, your guy is good, he's the best, he is the best. So what is she doing here? Well, she's oh, this is like really old stuff.

50:27 Speaker 2: Huh oh yeah, oh yeah, she's moved those matches.

50:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, but she's also moving that piece of.

50:34 Speaker 2: Metal right, And there's other ones where she would do this, and these things would be in a bell jar, I believe.

50:41 Speaker 1: So she's not touching it, she's making it move.

50:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think they literally wore her out.

50:47 Speaker 1: What year is this? Yeah, here's my problem. This is something that's on the table. I can't see below the table. I can't see if there's a bad magnet. I can't see what's underneath this deck cards. There's a piece of metal and you can move things around with fuckery. I don't know if this is real. And those matches were moving because that piece of metal was moving the matches right, So the piece of metal was plowing the matches, and she's got it moving around. I'm not buying into this.

51:15 Speaker 2: But on its face, yeah, it's really intriguing.

51:18 Speaker 1: It's intriguing, but it's a party trick, like to even I don't even like the way it's set up, the way it's set up on a table, and she's doing this with her hand and her lap is right there and anything could be happening there. It's cool if it was real. But and that's that looks really old, like what years.

51:35 Speaker 2: Ago, I don't know, probably fifties yeah, yeah, I don't know. But so the point really is, if you were to make it a job to accumulate there's kind of information from as many sources as possible, you'd really have a large volume of stuff, and then you'd have a lot of material to look at an analyze. It's not just one case. I think it's easy to to look at one case and have doubts because it is just once. It isn't one situation.

52:05 Speaker 1: Do you think that things like psychic powers, like or psychic or an understanding of other people's thoughts and ideas, these are maybe possibly emerging aspects of human beings, like as a human evolves, as we go from being, you know, a tree dwelling primate to being what we are today, where people are intuitive and we can sort of read social cues and we understand each other and we can talk and communicate using sounds and noises. That as the human animal evolves, they'll eventually develop some sort of a psychic power.

52:43 Speaker 2: So that in a way that's connected to supposing that those psychic powers already exist to.

52:51 Speaker 1: Some degree, maybe in some people more than others.

52:53 Speaker 2: Right, right, So that means there are white crows, like we've talked about last night. Yeah, okay, he explaining that context, there shouldn't be any white crows. White crows aren't white, so there shouldn't be any anomalies like that. So if you come up against a white crow, you've really found an anomaly. So now the question is why, how how did this happen? Well, it's an albino, right, it's just a genetic So it's a metaphora. Right, So it's a metaphor saying you've really come across something that shouldn't be It shouldn't be, right, there's no way this should happen.

53:26 Speaker 2: Right, And oh my god, shres another one, and it's a cousin. It's different, it's it's in a different area of the of the whole SI basket. What's going on here?

53:36 Speaker 1: Well, we already know that there are extreme variations in intelligence. We know that there's people that are just not that bright, and then there's people like Elon Musk and these people like this, Well he is not from here.

53:49 Speaker 2: Probably he's not from here anyway.

53:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, most likely if there's an alien amongst us, that's right. But I mean, if you go back to Nicola Tesla, it's sort of the same sort of situation. Right. You know, he was clearly of not just superior intelligence, but superior vision. You had this ability to look at things that didn't exist and figure out a way to create them. Right, And that's a very unique thing. And what is causing that? What firing of neurons, What personal experiences combined with education, combined with innate creativity makes a person create something?

54:26 Speaker 2: But that's not as paranormal, No it's not.

54:29 Speaker 1: But it's a different aspect of being a human being. Now, we all know that some people more intuitive than others, some people more sensitive other than others. Some people are better at understanding. Some people are really good at picking out liars, some people are really good at picking out talent. They understand people better. Right as a human As the human animal evolves, we could only surmize that that those types of skills and those types of qualities that a human being can possess could possibly get better if you get two very intuitive people to have a child and the child is even more intuitive than them, And that some aspects, unprovable, unmeasurable aspects of psychic power could be something that's emerging out of the human animal.

55:15 Speaker 2: I would never say never I think a lot is possible. I think what's may more likely would happen because we're shifting now to taking normal human physiology, which is a separate situation from being able to perform things that are more unique than just being creative. So I think that you might have you know, small circuitry and you know, small things that are added to the human brain to enhance this capabilit like neural linked Yeah, and that's much more likely in terms of human evolution than that that you're going that future generations are going to become enormously psychic and enormously cause and effect using consciousness.

56:19 Speaker 2: So whether it's clairvoyance or telepathy, or psychometry, micro macropk, remote viewing, the whole basket, those are all real and they have all world class performers in every one of those things. Remote viewing is a great example of this because we know for twenty years the CIA and the Army had programs in this, and so did the Russians.

56:40 Speaker 1: Right, And we talked about remote viewing last night too, that we I'd done an experiment on a show that I had and it wasn't effective at all, But that could have been that the person that was doing remote viewing was a fraud that maybe there are people that do have that ability. Now has it ever been clearly demonstrated that someone can do that? Yes, personally.

57:02 Speaker 2: Well, I've hired somebody to do it twice for me. But I've also what do they do have friends that ran the programs?

57:09 Speaker 1: What did they do? What the people that you use?

57:11 Speaker 2: I tasked them to to describe a longitude latitude location and describe it, what was the surface, what was underground? Those kinds of things.

57:24 Speaker 1: And they were accurate. Yeah, how accurate?

57:28 Speaker 2: Very accurate, and give me information that to this day I don't know if it's true or not because it was underground information that I don't even know. But it just came in the that came as a hey, here's a bonus. I'll tell you what's what's underneath.

57:43 Speaker 1: So the government had these programs, these secret programs that they were studying remote viewing, but their official conclusion was that it was horseship right. Oh no, wasn't it? Oh gosh, GUYSH know, not in public?

57:56 Speaker 2: No, that was never concluded in that way.

57:59 Speaker 1: And what did they say publicly about remote viewing? Did they ever say it's one hundred percent effective and real.

58:04 Speaker 2: I think there would probably be at a point in time. It was classified for a long time, okay, and then it became more public eventually as a program aged and so forth, as things usually do. To be one hundred percent, you could acquire by having more than one viewer have the same target, you increases the likelihood of the accuracy of the information. One hundred percent is a lot to ask for, because you're getting you're getting a drawing at the same time you're getting conversation, and sometimes the drawings revealed more than the conversations did.

58:46 Speaker 2: So the remote viewer would also be in a position as an experiencer. So if his target, if his or her target was it a certain location that and the person was eating an orange, for example, a remote viewer could almost taste it, could almost hear the gravel that the person was walking on, feel it under their shoes that they're walking.

59:13 Speaker 1: So it's the methodology. How would they go about doing this?

59:16 Speaker 2: So the first of all, the aspect of this is though you're over the person's head that you're so we have to go back and say there are different kinds of remote viewing first of all, So I'm just taking one type where maybe your target is a person and the person is at a location, and maybe the location is a wharf, a boat dock, there are a lot of boats and maybe the gravel pathways getting there. Maybe they're having a fruit in their hands and orange apple, whatever, and so the remote viewer is back above the head, kind of like an out of body experience is the way that those are reported, And you're watching yourself going down we can talk about that later, going down a hallway, but you're above yourself, same way with a remote doing.

1:00:00 Speaker 2: Sometimes they would be in that kind of a position. And so did you describe everything in your drawing? Maybe not? Well, then you didn't get one hundred percent, did you? But you were spot on as to where they were. You could go find that location and that's actually where they were at that point in time. That was true, that's exactly where they were.

1:00:21 Speaker 1: So they were able to figure out where people were and they were able to get a sort of an understanding of what they were doing and how they were doing it and what their surroundings look like.

1:00:31 Speaker 2: That's a tip of the iceberg, the.

1:00:32 Speaker 1: Tip of the iceberg. But what was the methodology? How would a person remote view would they be alone in a room. Would did they have to achieve a certain state of meditation? Like what did they do to do this?

1:00:43 Speaker 2: So they would be in a room and with a control per controller I forget the terminology now that they used. So viewer would be there at a desk and patent paper and and there would be the person sitting a us as a controller and then at the appointed time. And it depends on how these remote viewing sessions were constructed. I think the real people that you should talk to or the guys that ran the programs. I'm just you know.

1:01:14 Speaker 1: I talked to Ed Danes. That's the guy that I talked to, the only guy I.

1:01:18 Speaker 2: Would recommend people like how put off? He would be a very very good person to talk to on this.

1:01:25 Speaker 1: So how would someone learn how to do this? And who figured it out initially?

1:01:32 Speaker 2: I don't know who was necessarily the first. You have early players like Pat Price, Ango Swan, I think Helen Hammond, Joe Matt Monaga, those kinds of folks. And I'm not sure the genesis of how it began a lot of times things happen by accident, right, and you stumble on something and say, oh wow, what is what just happened.

1:01:58 Speaker 1: But it has to be some sort of repeatable skill, like something that you could teach someone how to do.

1:02:03 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, And I believe what I've been told is that most people have some degree of abilities that are beyond the five senses, and some have more of those abilities than other people, and so it can be taught and built up and developed. But some people are more predisposed to certain kinds of stuff than other people are.

1:02:33 Speaker 1: And so how would they train people to do something like this? Who was the first person to figure out that they could do it? And then how do they train other people to do it?

1:02:44 Speaker 2: Joel mcmonaga has a book. I think he authored it back in nineteen ninety three and he had I believe a near death experience about nineteen seventy ish seventy. And I mean there's a lot of literature out there on the shelves that people can buy. They can they can get a hold of this stuff without having to talk to these fellows and these people, and the stories are amazing as to what they can do. So it's and purportedly distance is irrelevant. I mean, you could do something thousands of miles away and that could be the target and you can describe that target.

1:03:23 Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be on the surface. It can be a building, it can be inside a building, it can be inside a room. I mean, I guess really gets strange.

1:03:33 Speaker 1: And so you have actually experienced this and you are one hundred percent on board with remote viewing, you think it's really.

1:03:39 Speaker 2: Well, I've experienced it to we we extent. I hired a fellow to do it twice.

1:03:45 Speaker 1: But he did it.

1:03:46 Speaker 2: He did it.

1:03:46 Speaker 1: That's not we. That's that's pretty big. The guy did it.

1:03:50 Speaker 2: He did it, And I sat once. I got to sit behind a screen on a computer to play around a little bit. So I don't have any real experience, you know, with this. I just have a lot of admiration for the people who manage the programs and who can function that that exercise. Mm hmm, it's it's really amazing. There's an old story about Ingo Swan. He's passed over, but.

1:04:19 Speaker 1: Say that he don't say he's passed, he's passed over.

1:04:23 Speaker 2: Well, now you know where my thought is about things?

1:04:26 Speaker 1: Well, and I do know where he thought is about things. But I just finally I'm want to get to that too. But the way you describe and he passed over.

1:04:32 Speaker 2: Oh there's a story I love about Ingo. He's being tested, as always happens. You're trying to verify, verify, verify, right, trust but verify, verify always, and like you're doing exactly what you should be doing is questioning, always questioning it. And so he's being tested by officials and they have a submarine that, uh, that is his target. He doesn't know what his target is as of course, and it might even have been a blind or double blind situation. I don't know, but they go to a lot of efforts so that maybe even the person that's with you doesn't know what the target is.

1:05:12 Speaker 2: That's usually the kind of protocols. So and he identifies the sub. He identifies the sub accurately, and this is an advanced sub that he's identifying, so it's underwater, it's you know, it's deep, and he's able to see this thing and describe it. So it makes them pretty uneasy, and they're impressed. This is like, wow, this is a big deal this guy. So it's not like just how is he doing this, It's like he did this. So they're calling the meeting kind of to a close. He says, well, don't you want to know what's following it?

1:05:57 Speaker 2: Duh, right, see he's just then he starts describing this other craft that's following behind the sub wing. NGO was an amazing guy. I got always the other craft. I guess it was some kind of UFO something else that wasn't another sub you know, of ours or Russians or anybody.

1:06:17 Speaker 1: That's one of the speculations about unidentified flying objects is that they're not just flying, that some of them actually exist underwater. There's been many sightings of things that went into the ocean. Yeah, oh yeah, what do you think of that? Well, I mean, you know, suppose they didn't. Aren't there stories even about Christopher Columbus crew and so forth seeing things going back for centuries, things coming in and all the water. Well, that was part of the tic TAC, the cander David Favor's encounter, that there was something below the surface of the water that was creating a wake almost like rocks.

1:06:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was churning.

1:06:52 Speaker 1: It was a very large thing, and that it went under as they approached and the tic TAC craft face them, and that you know, they don't know to this day what that thing was that was under the surface, but that's what led them to go and investigate in the first place. And as they were going towards it, that's when they realized that there's this thing like, you know, roughly the size of this room.

1:07:16 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in that carrier group was a ship or two that was bristling with electronics equipment, and it's the first thing that sensed something out there. And that's that's when I my understanding was, and I'm going back a long time now, was that that's when they were launched to go check it out because what was out there shouldn't be out there and behaving the way it was behaving according to all the electronics on this ship that was part of the battle group, you know, with the aircraft carrier, I think a couple of subs that was a battle group and so and then they had target now, right, so they're able to see firsthand for themselves what's going on.

1:08:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when they were speaking over the mic, they they had found out that they had been encountering these things over the last because when Commander Favor was inquiring, like, what the hell is this, then the other end was saying, look, we've been seeing these things over the last few weeks. No one knows what it is. Yeah, but like, what do you do about that? What do you think?

1:08:22 Speaker 2: Sometimes better left alone? If you know they're really behaving fantastically and they're not the Russians or Chinese or whatever, go have a sandwich, forget about it.

1:08:35 Speaker 1: I don't think they had a choice. I mean, you can't catch it. It's literally jamming your radar. You have images of it, and you know you're tracking it, and they're moving in a way that is literally impossible with our technology. What do you do? You can't do anything? What are you going to go to war with it? What are you gonna do?

1:08:54 Speaker 2: And it's not like it's it's not like it's offensive. It hasn't tried to attack you or do anything nothing.

1:09:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very strange situation to be in, to be, you know, the a fighter pilot with the most sophisticated military equipment and to encounter something that is beyond the scope of even imagination of what's possible. Right, Yeah, you had, uh, you had encounters with Bob Lazar. You you know Bob and you you were around when Bob Lazar first.

1:09:29 Speaker 2: Uh, Now is this going to be all about the mylar balloon event.

1:09:33 Speaker 1: What's the mylar balloon event?

1:09:34 Speaker 2: Oh, you don't know that one. No, So we all jump in my car to go out to the alien in area out there, you know, on the alien in that out there.

1:09:48 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a north bar or something for a.

1:09:51 Speaker 2: North of that area. And so so Bob Blazaar, George Knapp, myself, and I think Gene Huff, who is Bob's friend, we all go out there. Well, I'm being known to me. Bob has a mylar balloon which really bounces their DAR signature a lot for its size, and a bottle of gas helium. So we find our way back out in the desert. Out there, we're kind of I'm thinking we're on a UFO watch, which is always fun. Sometimes the best thing is the food you take along, right, and you're out there under the stars and it's nice and you have a good time just watch it.

1:10:37 Speaker 2: So, but there's a rustle of things going on here, and next thing I know, there's a balloon. This mylar balloon's inflated and there's a slight breeze and Bob lets it go and we're on the opposite side of the mountain range from supposedly ask four and he wants he wants to go that way. Thank god, the wind's going in the opposite direction. It was traveling north instead of south, and it went the wrong way. You know. So I'm thinking, my life's just passed before my eyes.

1:11:08 Speaker 1: Why do you think you'll life passed before your eyes? Because if he doesn't go towards areas for it's going to get picked up. Yeah, they're gonna go find out where it came from.

1:11:14 Speaker 2: Wackenhut security is going to come get us. I'm going to spend the night in jail, right so, you know, it all just unraveled real quick.

1:11:23 Speaker 1: And was this before Bob had gotten in trouble for bringing people to the observation point to watch, Because let's let's tell a story about Bob real quick. Bob said he worked for Area S four and he was hired to back engineer what they believe we're alien crafts. Along the lines he had this top secret clearance and along the lines of all this happening, they're monitoring his phone calls. Turns out Bob's wife is having an affair. Bob doesn't know about this. They remove him from the project because they believe he'll be emotionally unstable.

1:11:53 Speaker 1: If he's so, he's he's freaking out, not knowing a that his wife is having an affair and not knowing why he is pulled from this project, doesn't totally understand, so starts telling people about what he's doing and telling people listen, I can take you to a place where once a week they do these tests. So he starts bringing people to this area they see these objects flying in these spectacular ways that we really can't do with any of our conventional aircrafts. And then Bob gets in trouble for that.

1:12:21 Speaker 1: And then Bob goes on the George Knapshow and starts explaining all these different things, presumably for self preservation, because the best way to probably protect your own life is to go public with this and explain everything that's happening. And they can discredit you and make you look very good nut, but if they kill you, then you know, then it leads credence to your story.

1:12:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, it gives you a very huge hardship.

1:12:46 Speaker 1: So when do you fall into the story.

1:12:50 Speaker 2: Well, you've just given me an overload of information now that I'm pretty much aware of, but I don't know exactly when I don't think, as I recall it, everybody was pretty much at ease, and I wasn't. It wasn't part of.

1:13:06 Speaker 1: When years this that this is all going on.

1:13:08 Speaker 2: Oh god, I don't know ninety one.

1:13:12 Speaker 1: So this is around that time. This is around on George Knapp's.

1:13:16 Speaker 2: Show, somewhere in that time frame. But I wasn't aware of of a lot until much until I don't think at that time I was aware of him taking people out on you know, Wednesday nights to go see something out there. I kind of missed out on that or whatever, And I don't think this was anything like connected to that.

1:13:36 Speaker 1: I think that that was before this. Yeah, probably that was. I think you're dealing with him out after you know, he had met George and after he had told his story. Yeah, because George is with you. Oh yeah, yeah, so obviously they had already met. Sure, so what was your initial Obviously, your person that has a deep fascination with UFOs. Now here you are talking to this guy who's clearly a genius, brilliant guy, Bob Azar, and he's telling you this fucking bananas story. He's out there back engineering spacecrafts.

1:14:09 Speaker 1: They came from another land that are using this element one point fifteen. This stuff that's just a theoretical element that wasn't even proven by particle collider until what twenty thirteen somewhere along that line. It was just theoretical up to that point. So he's telling you about all this stuff. What was your What did you think?

1:14:31 Speaker 2: I wanted to reserve judgment until I knew a lot more. And the more he talked, the more interesting it became. The more research that George did, things that he uncovered, it became more interesting. And so, as I said a while back, I think George was doing an interview with me, and I said, I wouldn't bet against Bob's the truth of the majority of everything that Bob has said. I wouldn't bet against it. Could they be Arizona missions for different reasons, Yeah, sure they could, But that the uh I I would tend to say Bob is legitimate, and you know, I don't.

1:15:25 Speaker 2: There's certain aspects of things that are parts of stories that you wonder, well, how could this happen? And so forth. But I think if you if you take all of the collective information and the work that George Knapp has done to validate things, it's awfully damn impressive.

1:15:43 Speaker 1: But George is such an important part of it because he's a legitimate investigative journalist and that was his career, and so he poured himself into this oh yeah, and exposed all the different aspects of this story that seemed to indicate that he said on the truth. Oh yes, yeah, And that's that's what's crazy about it.

1:16:03 Speaker 2: And George is not any normal journalist. He is he's like what he has like six peabodies.

1:16:09 Speaker 1: Yes, he's fantastic. So he's diving into this and the more he uncovers, the more it seems like Bob bobblesar story is legitimate, right right?

1:16:18 Speaker 2: So I think until you, I like the philosophy of reserving judgment, until you have a preponderance of evidence that it really moves you one way or another. You don't have to have one hundred percent. I go by reasonable doubt.

1:16:33 Speaker 1: But what was it like for you to be this guy who's had this deep fascination with flying saucers and here you are talk like, let me tell you my experience with Bob doing this podcast with Bob, I wanted one of two things. I wanted to go, oh, this guy's full of shit. Or I wanted whoa this guy's It seems like he's not full of shit. I think he's telling the truth. I think this guy really did encounter these aircrafts and really did work on these spaceships, whatever they are. That's where I'm at right now.

1:17:03 Speaker 1: My experience with him, my communication with him, he didn't seem like it's full shit at all. He's clearly a brilliant guy. His story has not changed at all over the thirty plus years that he's been saying it. It's a crazy story, but when you are a person like yourself, you sa me even more than I, who is obsessed with this subject, the possibility of alien life that's visited this earth and maybe even left crafts behind. And maybe these crafts are in the possession of some secret government agencies that are trying to observe them and back engineer them.

1:17:42 Speaker 1: What is it like to talk to this guy, to this because this guy has seen the thing you're looking for. This guy, all you're searching and all of your wondering and staring out into the heavens, and here's a guy that has actually touched it, actually worked on it, been inside one try to figure out how they work, can't do it, doesn't understand it. It's talking to these people. Everything's compartmentalized. You've got the metallurgist people that are working on what kind of alloy this thing is made of.

1:18:10 Speaker 1: You got him who's a part of the people that are trying to understand the propulsion system. And then you've got people that are giving you this information that like maybe they have been here forever, maybe this is a part of an archaeological dig. Maybe they've been trying to study these things for decades with no advancement at all.

1:18:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we came across, or myself and a couple other people came across folks who could collaborate some of the things going on out there, such as silent craft actually lifting off at night time, not looking as though the control was very good, but actually lifting off maneuvering like a really small trial kind of thing, and that fellow observed it from a distance where he wasn't supposed to be. George has come up with collaboration, i think from two or three other sources. Also, besides what Bob said about certain aspects of things out there, it's just that Bob's story is so much more in depth, so much more detailed, like that book that he talked about years ago, coming across amazing things.

1:19:33 Speaker 1: So tell people about the book.

1:19:35 Speaker 2: Well, there was a there was a book, as I remember, there was some kind of a book that Bob was allowed to look through or he actually or he sees the opportunity to do it when he was in a room where the book was. But I think that was by design, and it was some kind of a holographic book that as you opened up the pages, whatever the stories were, became a hologram. That's my recollection of a conversation that's decades old now. So you know, if I got it wrong, fire me, it's you know, it's you'll have to talk to Bob about that, would you, or talk to George.

1:20:19 Speaker 2: And because I remember something like that, I mean that was like wow, what an amazing way to portray information in some kind of a book and actually have holographic images coming forth out of the you know, I don't know. It just was so that I haven't ever heard of that being repeated any place in terms of something else like that happening. And so much that happened to Bob. It was so unique.

1:20:51 Speaker 1: There was also some very strange summary of what they understand or what they believe to be true about the origins of human beings, and that they believe that what these visitations were about was that human beings are the product of accelerated evolution, and that these species from wherever had been coming here and doing genetic experience experiments with primates and created human beings, which is the ultimate like who knows, Like, wow, that's fun to think about. But we were talking about this last night, like how bizarre humans are that?

1:21:30 Speaker 1: Add all these things on Earth? Were the only ones with shoes? Are all these things were the only ones that'd have to wear clothes. We're the only ones would jump into metal boxes with rubber tires and roll around these hard surfaces that we created, or fly in planes or send video through your phone to other people that are on the other side of the continent. We're weird. We're real weird. We're way weirder than anything else that exists. And if we are really a product of some sort of accelerated process like that, this is how they get the party started.

1:22:03 Speaker 1: On these planets, they find semi intelligent, curious animals that are using tools or using you know, opposable thumbs, and they do some things to them. Yeah.

1:22:18 Speaker 2: They There's a large variety of of potential beginnings, more evidence for some than others. Right, So that's that's always the trick.

1:22:35 Speaker 1: Have you considered that is like a subject that you've deeply considered and thought about?

1:22:42 Speaker 2: Really? Really, I'm here, I don't want to look at gift horset in the face. I'll take it for what it is, you know, really, Yeah, I mean.

1:22:53 Speaker 1: I think about it a lot.

1:22:54 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I need more more evidence to be more curious about. I'm more concerned about other kinds of things that are now than where do the human species come from? Particularly? I'm more driven by other kinds of things that could make a difference today.

1:23:13 Speaker 1: Going forward, So getting back to the Bobo Zart thing, when you first got to know him, when you first were considering this story and how crazy it was. What was it like to meet a guy who, at least by his own accounts, had encountered this thing that you were seeking.

1:23:32 Speaker 2: Well, Bob's a likable guy. As you said, he's very smart, and so he's interesting to talk to, right, Yeah, And

1:23:42 Speaker 2: so that's more than just entertaining to listen to his story is profound, right, and so it gives you an awful lot to think about and to try to to position as to how can you measure future information you might against that story, how can you verify different kinds of things? And so I've heard a lot more silly things. I think then what Bob was talking about didn't seem all that ridiculous. And then the more you get to talk to him, the more you get to know him, and people like George who's an investigative journalist, it gets more and more.

1:24:30 Speaker 2: Wow.

1:24:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, if there's like one thing that I could know about on this earth involving human beings, I think that's the thing. There's a lot of things I'd like to know. Who killed Kennedy. I'd like to know. There's like a lot of things I'd like to know. But whether or not that's real. To be in that hangar and see that ship and to go walk through it with him and to really understand that this is from here, I think that would be the that would be the one and.

1:25:04 Speaker 2: Have crash has been intentional.

1:25:07 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a weird one to me. We were discussing that last night. The problem with that is There's also this discussion of alien bodies. If crashes have been intentional, what do you have suicide bombers just for our own edification? That seems silly and that's really disheartening to think that someone could come here from another galaxy and still get tripped up by lightning.

1:25:27 Speaker 2: Yeah, but maybe they're just anthropomorphic that they're you know, maybe they're more robotic, and uh.

1:25:33 Speaker 1: Maybe that's our future.

1:25:34 Speaker 2: At what point does a specie have to have a spirit or a soul? I mean, does it could a machine even if it's very advanced and can think better than we can think, and calculate faster and actually understands fear, love passions, does it would it ever evolve to having a soul or a spirit? So, I mean, that's a really that's that's a good question. Yeah, it's different kind of it.

1:26:01 Speaker 1: It's also a good question is to are those things imperative for life? Like when we think of ego, when we think of our mating instincts and all the various pleasant and unpleasant aspects of being a human being, how many of them are impediments to growth and progress? I mean, what is growth in progress? Right? Are we trying to achieve mastery of the elements and of life. Are we trying to keep peace? Are we trying to make things better but stay human? Like? What are we trying to do? Because when we talk about artificial life, it's just artificial in terms of the fact that another life form has created it.

1:26:44 Speaker 1: But if they figure out a way that you've seen x Machina that movie, No you haven't, how dare you? How dare you go out see it right now?

1:26:53 Speaker 2: Hey, I'm living in the desert.

1:26:54 Speaker 1: Well, listen, they have movies in the desert. I've been in the desert. It's a great movie, fantastic movie, one of my fas or it's ever and it is about this super genius guy who develops these artificially intelligent humanoids, and it's there's a lot of, you know, suspension of disbelief when you're watching a science fiction movie that takes place in you know, modern era that has robots that look exactly like people and have emotions and thoughts and stuff. But it makes you wonder, how far away are we from something like that, some super intelligent thing that we create ourselves and then it can create other super intelligent things.

1:27:33 Speaker 1: I mean, are we fifty years, Are we one hundred years? When when is that going to happen? And is that going to happen? Or are we going to become some sort of symbiotic creation. Are we going to merge with technology instead of create some sort of technological being? Are we going to become one? And that's one of the things that I've always been very curious about. When it comes to these aliens, these iconic aliens that people experience, they always seem like what we will look like in the future.

1:28:06 Speaker 1: If you look at a chimpanzee or a gorilla, they're much more muscular than human beings, are much stronger, they're covered in hair, and they have smaller heads. And then our heads are bigger, our bodies are smaller, We're weaker and softer. And then if you continue to move forward and we advance and evolve and eliminate all like a lot of the problems that human beings experience, whether it's because of war or crime or all these different things that trip us up as a society and as a culture. These things are all connected to the tribalism and biology and emotions and the desire to sexually procreate.

1:28:49 Speaker 1: If they eliminate all of those things with technology over time, and you get these genital less aliens that have these enormous heads and that don't communicate with mouth noises anymore. They communicate with thoughts, and they don't have the need for physical strength anymore. So they're bodies of these tiny childlike things, but they have godlike powers. Is that our future?

1:29:14 Speaker 2: So is there a pre prerequisite in all of that for the reptilian brainstem to be eliminated? Is there the potential for in either inanimate objects or combination biological material

1:29:41 Speaker 2: android type of objects to have consciousness? And what is it to be human in the first place? Well, if you have bred out or artificially created something that is close to whatever perfect might be, as opposed to a human being that's very imperfect. A very human being has all kinds of imperfections, all kinds of emotional imperfections, and capabilities that you know, go from here to here. And so that is what it's like to be human being. We are very imperfect, and so we're in a we're in a class by ourselves.

1:30:35 Speaker 2: Now you introduce something else, maybe our consciousness is unique to being a human being, and it's not possible to actually evolve consciousness in an artificial mechanism. So and I you know, consciousness and thought are two different kinds of things, like mind and brain are two different kinds of things. So consciousness, to me is is a force by like we just saw colignia, whether you think it's real or not. But there are many other demonstrations of being able to use consciousness attention as a force upon something to either gather information you shouldn't be gathering from remote viewing or moving an object.

1:31:28 Speaker 2: You know, it's a different kind of force. Thought is a creative mechanism, So and thought can come to promoting the force, promoting, in other words, to channel the conscious effort. I don't mean to be getting off the topic, but I think okay. So then it comes down to even if this were, even if you did create those kinds of advanced beings, whatever, why did you do it? Why? You know, is perfection that important? I mean, does everything have to be perfect? Or isn't there some beauty and having some imperfections.

1:32:18 Speaker 1: Well, here's the question. All of the human elements that we talked about, whether they're emotions or the desire to procreate sexually, or jealousy and rage and territorial behavior, tribalism, all the awful and great things about human beings, ego, all those things lead people to want to do things to get recognized, to get attention, and they also want to get recognized for their achievements, and they also want to push things past the boundaries that have been established by other people that are in the same bus business, are the same creative venture as them.

1:33:02 Speaker 1: Whether it's artificial intelligence, or whether it's art or creativity or music or anything that people do, they were always piggybacking on the work of the people that came before them. It's part of being a person with everything, with architecture, with technology, everything is piggybacking on the work before it. And these things are motivated by these very imperfect aspects of being a person, by ego, by the desire to be loved, by all these these and even by the positive things, by curiosity, by creativity, all this soup of influences are all making people advance technology and innovate that if you just extrapolate, if you just look at what technology is, and if you look at what we're doing, if you look if you were from another planet and you had no idea about human culture.

1:33:56 Speaker 1: You had no idea and you had no no familiarity to the human form and to what our life is like down here. And you looked at us, you would say, well, what is this species doing? What are they doing? Well, I'll tell you what they're doing. They're making stuff, and they're making better stuff every year. That's what the species does. What do bees do? They make beehives, they make honey, But they do the same shit every year. Human beings don't. They need a new goddamn phone every year. The TVs get bigger, the cars get faster.

1:34:23 Speaker 1: Everything they do is better. The computers have more terabytes of hard drive, Their processors work quicker, the video cards are better. Everything's better. No one's settling for less good. Everybody wants better, and they want better constantly, and they want to show their friends. It's part of being attractive. Look look at Johnny. He's got the new car, he's got the new phone, she's got the new watch. You've got the new Oculus rift headsets, you got this and that. We make technology. It's our primary thing.

1:34:53 Speaker 1: We work. We get ourselves together like human batteries, and we generate income and revenue. And we're all obsessed with making or buying better stuff. That's what we do. Now what does that mean ultimately, Well, it means technology. Technology is the pinnacle of human achievement. It's the stuff that puts us into space. It's the stuff that allows us to videotape things. It's stuff that allows us to essentially capture time. You can capture time in a phone and play it back to people. This is when I showed Jeremy this thing.

1:35:26 Speaker 1: We both laughed. Haha. Look you can laugh too, you could laugh at our memory. That's what it's doing. Well, we're gonna get better at that. It's gonna keep getting better and better and better. Well, where does that lead to. It leads to some sort of singularity. It leads to some sort of a paradigm shifting invention where all of these technologies piggyback onto themselves until we reach some sort of pinnacle of human achievement. And I think that's probably going to be some kind of artificial life or some sort of a symbiotic relationship with technology where literally, instead of carrying around like a phone like a baby that you don't want to leave behind, it's going to be in your body.

1:36:09 Speaker 2: I don't think it's enough, and I don't think it's all together better.

1:36:14 Speaker 1: I don't think it's all together better either, but I think it's going that way.

1:36:16 Speaker 2: I think you've got half the coin half the coin. Yeah, what's you're missing the other side?

1:36:21 Speaker 1: What's the other side?

1:36:22 Speaker 2: Okay, So, so you've built this societal empire of technological.

1:36:28 Speaker 1: Achievements, right, that's where we have now, right.

1:36:31 Speaker 2: Well, and who knows in fifty years or one hundred and fifty years whatever. Okay, I think you've just described an infrastructure for a serious problem coming.

1:36:45 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:36:48 Speaker 2: What if you were to create a graph and on the graph were just two things, two lines, and you were tracking over the last one hundred and fifty years spiritual maturity among the species. Twentieth century was the worst annihilation of people, sixty million people in ever in terms of numbers wars. Right, what if you were to track in that same graph the progress of technology, Well, you'd have one vertical line and this technological line in the twentieth century and now, and it would probably be segmented, which I mean is jumping.

1:37:32 Speaker 2: It's going faster than arithmetic progression or any normal progression is jumping. So it might be at a two four eight sixteen thirty two situation. Now you look at the spirituality line, it's practically flat lined. So what's the consequences of that?

1:37:54 Speaker 1: Eventually, what do you mean by the spirituality?

1:38:01 Speaker 2: I think a species needs to have grounding spiritually. I think a species have to have an essence of spirituality, something that in their being, to their bones says it makes a difference what you do, It makes a difference how you behave for your overall good and the good of others. And it makes a difference.

1:38:32 Speaker 1: So an intelligent species like us, not just all species, correct, the sure the most intelligent, yes.

1:38:39 Speaker 2: Right, So if you don't have a grounding though, in a solid spiritual philosophy, in a species like us, like humans, then you're rolling the dice on handing a species that might be immature spiritual some very advanced, dangerous stuff that can be used as weaponry or just misused and abused in other kinds of ways. And then maybe the species things that knows it all and it's cavalier, it's careless about the way the disposition of the technologies, but more than likely it's hostile because things tend to be weaponized.

1:39:25 Speaker 2: So you wind up with the species that's more like the Klingons than you want. So you wouldn't want to be on some of the planet and having these discover you, right, So I think those two lines are really important to try to harmonize. The problem is there's no intersection in sight in our lifetimes and other lifetimes. There's no intersections in sight. We haven't even begun to create a homogeneity of spirituality in the human species compared to the proliferation of technologies, so that incongruity can be a really serious problem someday.

1:40:02 Speaker 1: Maybe, Yeah, for sure. I mean, if we continue to concentrate only on things and on improving technology, but not improving the way we communicate with each other and love each other exactly, Yeah, exactly. So what's the solution?

1:40:17 Speaker 2: Wow? Yeah, I mean that's that's the big you know, that's the sixty four thousand dollars question that they used to say, yeah, whole television program. Yeah, I mean, that's that's what is a solution? You know, But who ponders that. Whoever ponders this only people with a lot of free time. Yeah, I suppose. So, Yeah, some some monks on the mountain side somewhere, some buddhas someplace.

1:40:41 Speaker 1: That's the problem with the way we live our lives. We're very, very busy with things that aren't exactly spiritually satisfying.

1:40:49 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, we're we're there's a tremendous amount of noise for attention, And so wouldn't you get the time to just to think? Right?

1:41:01 Speaker 1: When do you poo me? Yeah? When do you?

1:41:06 Speaker 2: I'm just I'm too busy running circles.

1:41:08 Speaker 1: But I know you think about these things, and I know you you've you've thought a lot about consciousness and this is one of the things that you've studied, is one of the things you're involved in, is the concept of whether or not consciousness extends beyond death? Right, yeah, And what do you think?

1:41:26 Speaker 2: I think it's it's a It's a really important subject. So we have two holy grails, right, And the second holy grail is are we alone? As you've said, and everybody kind of has attracted that question. The other is does do aspects of your consciousness survive your bodily death? So is there a difference between mind and brain? So as brain the generator and mind as a reservoir and actually more more causal than the brain is in a sense. So in theory, the question relates to, guys, you're doing away with a brain.

1:42:09 Speaker 2: If the container decomposes and dies and is permanently offline, are there any aspects of your mind that continues? Does your consciousness continue? That is a question that has been attempted to answer since maybe the dawn of man. A loved one has just died. Is there any way to recapture that any way at all? Well, no threaten office, it's gone. And that is just a relevant question today as ever, because you have a lot of disparate kinds of folks beliefs, and you have religions that are against that notion altogether, and so you have a huge difference amount of differences in people's filosophy and driven by religious beliefs or just the way they've arrived at their own conclusions or whatever.

1:43:08 Speaker 2: So you have to be respectful of all these different kinds of beliefs and try to yet do to try to yet approach that subject in a way that is somehow determinable, try to arrive at something that maybe is not one hundred percent, but can you find answers in different ways that drive you into the high levels eighty eighty five ninety ninety five percent that you're leaning towards that. That would be really good news if you could legitimately do that and for yourself and you know and know that you have something else in addition to this.

1:43:51 Speaker 1: Well, that's always been what religions have strived for, right to show people that there's something more than this life. Oh, there's something something waiting.

1:44:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, for the majority of religions is their backyard, and there's all kinds of promises about what our backyard contains if you're a follower of our religion.

1:44:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the cynical people would always say, well, they're just trying to promise you that to get you to behave in this life. But there's really no evidence whatsoever that anything happens once you die. But then you have people that have had near death experiences, and those are the weird ones because they've had these near death experiences and they almost always come back saying it's gonna be okay. They almost always come back on there's something more to this, right, And we don't know what those near death experiences are.

1:44:42 Speaker 1: We know that certain aspects of them can be recreated with psychedelic drugs, and we do know that the brain produces psychedelic drugs, you know, particularly DMT, and people that have had experiences on psychedelics have had these moments. The like Larry Haggard, the guy from Dallas that remember that, he famously was on CNN once and I watched this interview where he's talking about how he had a high dose LSD experience once he never worried about death ever again, and he was talking about it, and the CNN anchor was clearly a little rattled because I believe what they were talking about was his green home.

1:45:22 Speaker 1: He had this home that operated off the grid and you know, he had it all set up so it was really well insulated and solar powered and all this stuff so that he could, you know, not have a heavy carbon footprint, so to talking about this, and along the line they get to talking about his LSD experience and death, and it was pretty trippy to see him say that and to see them going, oh, like, but many people that have had intense psychedelic experiences have had this thing happen to them where they believe they've gone to another dimension.

1:45:58 Speaker 1: They've gone to this other place that seems more real. From my own personal experiences, I've had these where you go to these realms that seem more real than the realm that you're living in, and you encounter something. Whether there's something is imaginary or whether it's it's actually you could put it on a scale and measure it. I'm not sure if it matters, because it's still a thing you experience.

1:46:22 Speaker 2: Did you have after these experiences, did you have any kind of evidence afterwards that you could draw a connection between what you saw in the visions and actually now what you've discovered. I mean, was there anything that popped up later on that connected the two.

1:46:41 Speaker 1: No, No, there's no evidence. There's even the memory is shaky, like your memories are shaky, just like the memories of a dream are shaky. But when it happens, and I've done it a bunch of times, every time it happens, you're like, oh, yeah, I remember this because it's so intense.

1:47:01 Speaker 2: And each time that you do it, is it more vivid?

1:47:04 Speaker 1: No, it's always vivid. There's you can't get more vivid. It doesn't get any more vivid. It's just it's way more vivid than life.

1:47:11 Speaker 2: What do you learn as you've been doing this multiple times? What's the lessons learned.

1:47:17 Speaker 1: Abandonment of the ego is a big one. That's the big one, That your ego and your your desire to protect yourself from failing or from reality, that those things are ultimately very detrimental to your consciousness, very detrimental to the way you communicate with other people, and that it's a battle, a constant battle to abandon these monkey instincts that we all have, and that these things have protected us and gotten us to the stage, but they can ultimately trip you up as you try to to sort of understand yourself better.

1:47:48 Speaker 2: You know, you're you're just hitting on something in the literature of survival of consciousness, of which there's hundreds or thousands of books that you could actually access and people to talk to. The message seems to be in the literature. Abandonment of the ego is a very important thing to do. It's a very important thing. As you've passed over, that's one of the things that happens is try to remove the ego and shove it aside.

1:48:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it seems to be. That's an impediment to learning in a lot of different ways. It's an impediment to learning art. It's an impediment to learn because you think you're better than you are if you let your ego lie to you. It's same with technical skills, physical skills. You can lie to yourself and a lot of that is the ego. But the ego is also what keeps you alive. You know, it's the thing that makes you want to be successful. It's a thing that makes you want to progress. It's a thing that makes you want to accomplish things like it's not And the key to

1:48:57 Speaker 1: one of the keys to an actualized life is to progress. Move your motivation away from ego to the fascination in problem solving and acquiring skills and getting better at tasks is that there's something something interesting in it. And especially if you're doing something that benefits other people, when it benefits of the people that you get better at these things because these other people get to enjoy these things on a higher level, then you get this cool feeling of actually benefiting people, actually helping people with your your fascination with these things.

1:49:33 Speaker 1: And the more you concentrate on the ego, the more you're gonna it'll taint whatever progress you're making, you know, taint whatever thing you're creating.

1:49:43 Speaker 2: So back to the near death experiences. So let's suppose that you just look at the ones that come along naturally. You know, somebody has flat lined on an operating table, they fall through the ice. Yeah, whatever, Okay, So there are so many near death experiences. I mean, I've heard numbers that are ridiculous, in the millions people, and in this country, not just in the world. And so there's a hell of a lot of smoke. There's a there must be an awful lot of heat somewhere in terms of the probability that this is real, because how other explanations are really tough.

1:50:29 Speaker 2: Now you can have out of body experiences and you can validate conversations in a room. You should have no way of understanding where tools were taken from what drawers or anything like that. But people look like in the because you're gone, you're under anesthesia, right, there's no way. And yet the literature is replete with stories, thousands of stories like that, and the same thing with near death stories. You know, huge volume of information, every example you can possibly imagine, and and so then you wonder, well, how can you correlate that?

1:51:07 Speaker 2: How can you correlate anything to do with did the person have an experience not just through the tunnel, but what they saw afterwards, in that period of time after they exited the tunnel into wherever they were, and how do we how do we verify that what they actually saw was the other side?

1:51:28 Speaker 1: Not only that, you have different human beings with a different understanding of language, so they have limited vocabulary or limited ability to describe things, or limited ability to express themselves, and maybe they're not so good at relaying what it was.

1:51:43 Speaker 2: And does it fit with their religions and their philosophy.

1:51:49 Speaker 1: And how much of it do you distort when you get back to make yourself feel better? How much of it do you how much do you actually share with people? I mean, remember you were you were talking about yourchildhood experience. You didn't even want to share with your wife, Like when people have a near death experience. Maybe maybe some of it it's like unpleasant, you know, I.

1:52:07 Speaker 2: Didn't want to share with her. I mean she might have said, hey, go sleep in the other room, crazy. Yeah, I don't want you around me, you know, so wh I take the chance?

1:52:14 Speaker 1: Well, people, people have a real fear of being ridiculed, you know, and to be ridiculed for a near death experience is probably similar to being ridiculed for a UFO and count or a ridicule for any other super spectacular thing that most people are never going to experience, right right, Yeah, So what when you have talked about this, the ability to measure whether consciousness exists outside of life when they're what, how can that be measured? And what what steps can be made to try to quantify and to try to

1:52:54 Speaker 1: validate whether or not this is a real thing.

1:52:57 Speaker 2: You don't want to hear this.

1:52:58 Speaker 1: I do want to hear this, all right, So I don't want to hear this. Well, I don't know.

1:53:02 Speaker 2: I'm just guessing. I'm just guessing. I'm sitting here with a reptilian brainstem trying to keep up, all right. So, so how do you verify a near death experience? It might be that there's some kind of messaging that can happen from whoever greeted you temporarily on the other side because you are coming back, and maybe that message can be verified in some way. Maybe it's something that doesn't even make sense to you. Okay, so you do come back, you snap back in to this reality. You're alive, and sure enough, what was conveyed to you from the other side actually happens, and it wasn't something that was expected, it was it was profound in some way, and so that might be a way of verifying through this message that you had no other way of knowing or predicting that this was going to happen.

1:54:02 Speaker 2: There's also the subject of psychic mediums. All Right, I can see stoneface right now. You're not buying it, all.

1:54:14 Speaker 1: Right, I didn't say anything, I know, but I always give I'm looking at give stone face when people talk. Okay, all right, but yeah, most psychic mediums I think are full shit.

1:54:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I so, Okay, it doesn't mean they're all well, okay, now we'll say that again.

1:54:30 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean they're all full shit. Okay, okay, good, all right.

1:54:33 Speaker 2: All right, all right, Yeah, and some are a whole lot better than others.

1:54:38 Speaker 1: Yes, and some Look, it's like everything else. There's con artists out there, yes, and then there's people that are genuinely, genuinely unique.

1:54:45 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah, world class performers yeah yeah. And so so of course, you can't help yourself but try to get information that falls in the categories that they should have no way of knowing. In fact, you might not even know the information yourself at that moment in time. You know, you'll say no, or it's only later after you've listened to the recording or whatever that oh my gosh, they were right and this and this and that. So

1:55:19 Speaker 2: that is a very important source of information, assuming you're talking to ones that have been legitimatized, right, and they've been bona fide.

1:55:30 Speaker 1: Do you know any I know a very good one, you know, really good psychic medium? Can I meet that person?

1:55:39 Speaker 2: I don't see why not. I mean, it's up to them too, right, Yeah, but I think that would be a yeah, I would.

1:55:47 Speaker 1: I'll ask what does this person do professionally? Are they psychic medium professionally? So they make money doing it?

1:55:56 Speaker 2: This person isn't motivated by as far as my understanding is, by just doing these things as a as a business. Uh, this person will do things. We'll do We'll do readings, uh pro bono without a fee, without charging. That's promising and.

1:56:28 Speaker 1: Uh that helps, That helps believe you, helps you believe them.

1:56:32 Speaker 2: Brother, they have a family, and you know the person has a family and so on.

1:56:36 Speaker 1: So it's always a woman. Why is it always a woman that's really good at it. What is it a woman?

1:56:41 Speaker 2: Do you hear what I say?

1:56:43 Speaker 1: Is it a woman?

1:56:45 Speaker 2: Actually? Yes, well it is. It is interesting why psychic mediums tend to be women.

1:56:52 Speaker 1: I think because women have to be worried about men, because men are fucking crazy and and you know, men are more violent and women are probab be more intuitive because they have to pay more attention to these assholes.

1:57:03 Speaker 2: Well, you know, a pound for pound, they're the best astronaut there is women. Of course, of course, you get all that brain power in a package that doesn't weigh as much.

1:57:13 Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense.

1:57:14 Speaker 2: You're watching launching less weight, So they're okay, But all kidding outside, Yeah, psychic mediums are a really good, legitimate source of getting alternate information that helps to collaborate things maybe that that have happened other ways, or informations come maybe from a near death experience er, you know, for example.

1:57:38 Speaker 1: But outside of psychic mediums, what when you're talking about measuring whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, whether or not your consciousness somehow or another transcends your physical body.

1:57:52 Speaker 2: So you've heard of automatic writing, Yes, and and I don't mean that means what. It has nothing to do with your wife automatically going into your checkbook. It's got nothing to do with that, all right, anymore, that's automatic, Okay, I'll do that old fashioned bank online, I write, I write in scheck.

1:58:12 Speaker 1: But what is explain automatic writing to people? All right?

1:58:15 Speaker 2: So apparently it's it's something that has occurred for many, many years over, especially back when the study of spiritualism and the whole investigations of psychics was very, very strong, from about eighteen thirty five or forty to nineteen thirty ish, and then it has continued in some ways up until recent times. So you have somebody who is writing and they are being controlled by a spirit, okay, or they're in a trance, or maybe they're in a trance, but they could be lucid. Doesn't have to be in a non lucid trance, or they could be they could be lucid in the writing, or they could be in a trance.

1:59:16 Speaker 2: And maybe they're not writing in the vernacular and language that they're used to. Maybe they have a six or seventh year education and they're writing very sophisticated information.

1:59:32 Speaker 1: Have you experienced this?

1:59:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I'm I'm an explorer and a researcher, investigator, a student. But so I'm trying to gather information through other ways and I've had personal experiences, but I'm not nothing of automatic writing. So anyway, again, the literature is huge on this subject of automatic writing, and it's easy to dismissed because it just seems very strange. You're being possessed, you're you're you're actually being controlled.

2:00:15 Speaker 1: Right, But has anybody ever verified any of these this automatic writing stuff in the literature.

2:00:21 Speaker 2: Yeah, you have a lot of information that the writer isn't aware of, shouldn't be, it doesn't know, it's not it's outside of their world. Okay, So so there has been different kinds of cross correspondence and other kinds of ways of verifying that this didn't come from this person. Something else is going on here. It didn't come off from this person. It's not not right, it's not it's completely illogical. So you know, so that's that's one means of adding something to the menu.

2:00:57 Speaker 1: But when you're trying to measure whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, just because someone's automatically writing, they could be receiving some signal from someone that's still alive, if there is some sort of psychic communication, if there is a possibility of remote viewing, and you can transmit information from person to person without words, and this is one of the ultimate goals of neuralink. Elon Musk actually said, you're going to be able to talk without using words. I mean, if human beings, if it's possible to do something along those lines.

2:01:33 Speaker 1: This could be a live person that's somehow or another projecting these thoughts and someone else's tuning into them in the same way you would tune into a radio signal.

2:01:44 Speaker 2: Okay, So the way you would test that is probably it's going to be what's the nature of the entire subject matter? How extensive is this subject matter? Because at some point you're adding on so much weight and so many different variables that it stretches the credit, the credulty, the credibility of that theory working. It's kind of like using ball lightning as an excuse for all kinds of things when it has a very short life, usually travels in one direction and it's very very very rare. So everybody uses oxen ockham razor as this is what you do.

2:02:29 Speaker 2: You want to go to what is the simplest solution instead of trying to find swamp gas to describe the craft that just landed. So you know, I would say that's probably testable. You could probably create the methodologies to some do some some laboratory type tests on that. But my guess is that would fail as a solution.

2:02:56 Speaker 1: But you see where we're talking right now in these weird terms because I don't know if that stuff's real. I don't. I mean, I could describe what I think would be wrong with these scenarios, but I don't know if any of this remote writing or automatic writing has been verified. You do through the literature, the literature. What does that mean though, Well, through literature people are full of shit. They write things down that aren't true.

2:03:22 Speaker 2: It just means that we haven't set up experiments ourselves to verify ourselves and actually watching implementing it under controlled conditions, double blind, right, So what else do you have to resort to. It's what's in the literature, thoroughly digest and pros and cons and everything. A lot of sources and people who have engaged in this, and maybe they have film, maybe they actually have film of the writing, and you compare the handwriting, maybe it's different handwriting altogether, maybe it's in a different language completely.

2:03:55 Speaker 2: In fact, there are stories a lot of accounts of exactly that.

2:03:59 Speaker 1: But this subject of consciousness and whether or not consciousness exists beyond life, this is something that's important to you. So it'd assume that you've looked into it further than just this idea of automatic writing being the only piece of evidence.

2:04:10 Speaker 2: Actually that area is the least I've looked into.

2:04:13 Speaker 1: Automatic, say, area the most you've looked into.

2:04:19 Speaker 2: Well, now, first of all, I have kind of recaptured this this survival of consciousness inquiry that I was into in the nineteen eighties, and I have now formed an institute called BIS that started in June of last year.

2:04:36 Speaker 1: What does BIG stand for?

2:04:39 Speaker 2: Bigelow Institution for Survival of Consciousness and for conscious conscious Survival big Oeld Institute for Conscious Survival of Consciousness. And

2:04:58 Speaker 2: this organization is is very new, and so we're in a method of trying to stimulate research and investigate and catch up on the literature. And we have a unique situation where I have people around us that have ongoing things happening, ongoing things, different kinds of events that are being reported by family staff. Friends like apparitions.

2:05:46 Speaker 1: Ghosts, Yeah, you believe in ghosts.

2:05:51 Speaker 2: I have fun My experiences, well, there's a different Well, there's difference in terms of what causes you to believe in something. The most personal experiences probably, so my personal experiences are not having ever seen an apparition. My wife did I have had poltergeist, a very demonstrative poltergeist event. What was decades ago?

2:06:19 Speaker 1: What happened.

2:06:23 Speaker 2: Probably, I don't know, twenty five years ago or more. Eleven o'clock at night, my wife and I are laying in bed Halloween Eve. This is appropriate Halloween Eve, Okay,

2:06:45 Speaker 2: hardwood floors downstairs in the entrance hall, on which tables are all set up with lots and lots of candies bags because bags are being given out, large, very large candy bars and bags and bags of everything piled up, hundreds of kids having to be taken care of. Halloween, big deal. The ghosts in the trees, and this is a family thing. It was big deal every year.

2:07:11 Speaker 1: Decorations.

2:07:11 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, the whole the full Monty got it all right. So we're laying there and there's this crash bang boom, crash, crash crackher like a thousand mault balls just dropped to the hardwood floor, made all this noise. It sounds like the sound the sound I estimated, seemed to last forever, probably about three and a half four seconds, which is a long time for noise to continue. And I said, oh, it's jeez, stay here, I'll go take care of it. Whatever, I'll get it all, I'll get it. I'll go take care of it.

2:07:51 Speaker 2: The mess. So I go downstairs. Nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong. She doesn't believe me. She comes downstairs and she says, oh my god. So yeah, I don't have to do anything. Everything's perfect. I didn't touch it. It's just like we set it up. So that was a really interesting event. And pulled her guys a lot of times.

2:08:21 Speaker 1: So it's just a sound that you heard, Yeah, just a sound, a sound like something crashed, like all.

2:08:26 Speaker 2: Everything on, all those tables piled all up, had all crashed to the floor and bags broken open.

2:08:31 Speaker 1: Yes, but nothing did nothing. You had children at the time.

2:08:36 Speaker 2: I had teenagers, and they were gone, they were out of the house. They were gone. You sure they weren't fucking with you, the teenagers, But well, what would they have to do?

2:08:45 Speaker 1: Have a recording noise.

2:08:46 Speaker 2: Yeah, they would have to crash all this and record it, wouldn't It's not more likely and spend hundreds of dollars doing this, And well that's how much we always spent on recordings. No, on the candy, I mean, I mean just sounds.

2:09:00 Speaker 1: It sounded like mothballs you said, right, or like maltballs hitting the floor, right.

2:09:06 Speaker 2: Job breakers or whatever, candies, hard things, whatever.

2:09:11 Speaker 1: But that was it? Just a sound. That's a lot, But it's not necessarily a ghost.

2:09:17 Speaker 2: When when nothing has happened. Well, no, we're trying to understand about the Poulter Guys. Now, Polter Guys don't have to be anything manifested as a ghost. It can be an audible sound.

2:09:27 Speaker 1: But was there anything more to the experience than just a loud sound that turned out to be nothing?

2:09:33 Speaker 2: M No, that was pretty good.

2:09:37 Speaker 1: That's not enough for a starter.

2:09:38 Speaker 2: That's pretty good. You know, I probably like, Okay, what's gonna happen tomorrow night?

2:09:45 Speaker 1: Did something happen to marrow night?

2:09:46 Speaker 2: No?

2:09:46 Speaker 1: That was just one loud noise.

2:09:48 Speaker 2: It was a big deal.

2:09:49 Speaker 1: You know, It's like, wow, imagine if that was the whole movie Polter Guys, just a loud noise.

2:09:54 Speaker 2: Well, wouldn't that be that entertainment? No, you have to have chandeliers swinging and crashing and all that. That's what I was expecting.

2:10:01 Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting just like candy hit the floor, but no, candy actually hit the floor.

2:10:04 Speaker 2: Well I never said that My life was that exciting. You know, it hasn't been that great.

2:10:09 Speaker 1: But I want to get to this idea that you're trying to pursue of measuring consciousness or trying to figure out whether or not consciousness survives death, right, Like, what do you want to do and how do you want to do it? You can't just do it through remote writing or automatic writing or psychic mediums or there's got to be a way to figure this out.

2:10:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we started the institute and I said, okay, let's stir the pod up. And in fact, we thought we would join an organization and they didn't want us, so we got rejected. So we got rejected and then crawled off and conjured up a contest. So the contest says you have to have some credentials to enter this contest.

2:11:03 Speaker 1: As a kind of credentials do you have to have as a psychic?

2:11:06 Speaker 2: You have to have no, no, no, no. You have to have background in the topic of and you could be you could be a priest, a minister, or a rabbi. You have to have background in the topic of studying and understanding does it potentially does the other side even exist? We're not asking to tell us what it's all about, okay, just does it friggin exist?

2:11:32 Speaker 1: Right?

2:11:33 Speaker 2: So you might be a producer or director of a television show for years and you've got more stuff on film than you can imagine, of different kinds of weird things happening that you have no explanation for any of that, and you've made a study of this for a long time. You could be a good candidate. You could be a detective and maybe you're solving murder cases by using psychic mediums.

2:11:58 Speaker 1: So you have to have something you bring to the table.

2:12:00 Speaker 2: So you have to have someone to bring to the table. And you can't send us an essay. You're going to write an essay to present your case, and it can't be more than twenty five thousand words, which is about fifty pages.

2:12:11 Speaker 1: So you're just essentially going to allow people to come up with some convincing argument and bring it to you. So you have a contest to do this. Is that what it is?

2:12:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it is. So we say, okay, there's a deadline to get all your applications in and then you have many months. Deadline is actually the end of this month, the twentieth of February, and then you.

2:12:33 Speaker 1: Have Jamie's got it up here Bick's Essay competition Best Evidence for Afterlife ss will be judged by five renown experts.

2:12:43 Speaker 2: That's up to six. Now we have another judge, which is a good thing because because.

2:12:49 Speaker 1: The winning essay gets a half a milli second place that's three. No, it's perfect, it's good. Second place gets three hundred. Third place gets one hundred and fifty grand. If you have a semi shitty near death experience story, you get one hundred and fifty. It's it's an interesting way to do it, but uh, you know, I would hope there would be some better way to measure. You know, you know the expression extraordinary extraordinary evidence.

2:13:20 Speaker 2: Yeah, true, but you got to remember that. Well, first of all, we're causing conversation and and thought about the subject, and we're string the pot and this kind of contest has never been done before and what.

2:13:41 Speaker 1: If they're all terrible? Do you still give first place to someone who's terrible.

2:13:44 Speaker 2: Worse than that? What were there are only three applicants, right, a second, third price?

2:13:49 Speaker 1: It all suck?

2:13:50 Speaker 2: Yeah?

2:13:50 Speaker 1: Yeah.

2:13:50 Speaker 2: Well, the good news is we have some really good people.

2:13:54 Speaker 1: Jamie's thinking about right one right now. We have some We have some yeah, half a million bucks.

2:14:02 Speaker 2: We have some very good people who are entering this contest. The credentials are terrific, they're very good. They're authors of many books. There's there's an extent, extensive background of these kinds of folks. So we're excited about that. The response has been favorable, and so then well there's a lot of money they have August fir to do this, Okay, and then the judges.

2:14:29 Speaker 1: Now, so here we are what is it the twenty fourth? What is it twenty fourth of February?

2:14:35 Speaker 2: Okay, So then the judges start, and we just added a physicist to this group. He's the sixth one, and so he understands judging things and being a critical thinker, and so he really rounds out the group very well. And so the judges start August first, August, September, October, and then they're supposed to be finished by November first and have made decisions. So then we announce the winners, and we want to post all the three winners, and I suspect the judges are going to have a problem. It's going to be damn hard to pick three out of the group because we have that we have.

2:15:22 Speaker 2: This has been generated a lot of interest, and we have some really good folks into this. So we are going to get permissions. As an applicant, they have to give us permission just to We don't own anything. We just want to put it on our website so people can read all the essays. So maybe we have twenty twenty five essays, not just the three winners. So it's going to give people a chance to really read a lot of different kinds of arguments and maybe.

2:15:46 Speaker 1: By what metrics are you going to accept evidence of the afterlife?

2:15:50 Speaker 2: Good question? Okay, So we patterned this after the legal system of the Western world, and the Western world says two things that you can convict providing you have beyond evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't say one hundred percent, it says beyond a reasonable doubt. Number two witnesses really matter, the veracity and the quality of the witnesses matter, and how many did you have to something? You know, what is it that is being claimed here? You know? And what is the cross the cross, core, correlation, collaboration and whatever it is that you're trying to relate here.

2:16:38 Speaker 1: So when you're talking about convicting someone for a crime, here's the problem with that analogy. Crimes are real. Like if you're talking about convicting someone for a murder, the murder is real, the person's dead, and you want to catch someone, so you have eyewitness encounters, you have evidence, you have all these things, and you can convict someone on that evidence. There's no evidence that ghost real. There's no evidence that the afterlife is real. So you're you're guessing wrong. How's it wrong?

2:17:06 Speaker 2: Wrong?

2:17:06 Speaker 1: But murders are real, right, you would say murders are way more real than the afternoon?

2:17:10 Speaker 2: I said is wrong in this context?

2:17:12 Speaker 1: In what way? An applicant, an applicant.

2:17:15 Speaker 2: Who's a detective who has been using psychic no, what in fact, I got my watch right here, I'll.

2:17:24 Speaker 1: Talk that that turned out to be real? Right? Remember it did? It is talked like that's crazy?

2:17:30 Speaker 2: The time didn't fast forward two hours? I come from a Pacific time.

2:17:35 Speaker 1: Oh it didn't weird.

2:17:37 Speaker 2: No, And so I haven't been using my cell phone and I forgot forgot to bring.

2:17:42 Speaker 1: My charge on some shitty service. My changes.

2:17:46 Speaker 2: I'm going to talk to my granddaughter because she gave it to me.

2:17:49 Speaker 1: But you understand what I'm saying, though, because we actually talked about.

2:17:52 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, though, this guy's a detective solving murder cases using mediums, right, Well, isn't this like wow?

2:18:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, but when they solve murder cases using mediums, if that has ever been real? And I've talked to some detectives and say, that's all horseshit, because I did have a long discussion with someone who is a he's an investigative detective and he solves crimes. And he's like, there's no evidence that any psychics have ever given you any real information.

2:18:21 Speaker 2: Now he hasn't investigated the subject. He has had probably one experience, maybe two.

2:18:24 Speaker 1: Now he has this induces his personal opinion on cases that he's been involved in. And maybe he's wrong, but this is just what he said. He said, people are desperate, they hire psychics. They But my point is murder is real. The difference is you're convicting someone for something absolutely happened. When you're talking about trying to figure out whether or not there's an afterlife based on the kind of evidence that would be used to convict someone of a murder, that doesn't necessarily work. Because we know for a fact that murder's real.

2:18:58 Speaker 1: We know for a fact that human beings are real, and that if you kill them, you're a murderer. Well, this is all fact. We don't know whether or not there's an afterlife. So to use the same obligation or the same preponderance of evidence that would convict someone of a crime for something that you don't even know I is real, they don't necessarily You can't. They're not comparable.

2:19:23 Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't say, don't put the seriousness of an event in terms of the harm it caused as not being as being more legitimate than an event that actually produces information that you should have no way of acquiring.

2:19:43 Speaker 1: Well, let's not say that. Then, Let's talk about it in terms of something different than a murder. Let's talk about it in terms of vandalism. Just someone spray painting some building somewhere, right, Let's talk about that. No one gets hurt, just physical stuff.

2:19:56 Speaker 2: And takes that example. And suppose you went to a psychic medium and then and she says, what I'm hearing is that your house is gonna get spray painted with a message on the back side of your house.

2:20:08 Speaker 1: I'd go to that lady. She probably fucking did it. She knew it was coming. Impossible, she knew was coming impossible, impossible, I'm very possible. But this is all nonsense.

2:20:18 Speaker 2: But no, well wait a minute, don't wait a minute. So there is a predictability in events, However.

2:20:23 Speaker 1: Only if someone actually can prove that they've done that. And no one's ever done that. No one's ever said someone's going to spray paint your building and it wasn't them that I didn't prove it, prove it, show it to me. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, people have definitely spray painted people's bills, right, but no one has definitely showed you that there's real evidence that consciousness survives death and you can talk to someone from beyond the grave.

2:20:46 Speaker 2: There have been a mountain of readings for sitters who which where the information comes that says something is going to happen, and it happens. It's prognostication that a day or two or a week away and it happens. Maybe maybe no, no, it is.

2:21:05 Speaker 1: You just have to You've got to show me specifics that we're going to have this conversation. You see what I'm saying. Like for you to be so convinced, you should have things that you could pull out of the top of your head right now and tell me specifically that this event was predicted by this person, and this is how it happened, and there was no way they could have known about it otherwise, otherwise this shouldn't be convinced.

2:21:23 Speaker 2: Are in the tens of thousands, but.

2:21:25 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean anything when they're written down after the fact that it doesn't mean Jackshusan.

2:21:28 Speaker 2: But there are actual accounts of things. You have to say, well, the authors, the authors are all fraud.

2:21:33 Speaker 1: Maybe the authors are a fraud, a fraud. The problem is you want to believe that's the problem. So maybe it's true, Maybe it's true.

2:21:40 Speaker 2: I got the solution.

2:21:41 Speaker 1: Don't But here's the thing I got, Robert, I love you.

2:21:44 Speaker 2: You don't know I got the solution.

2:21:46 Speaker 1: What's the solution.

2:21:46 Speaker 2: The solution is for you to have a sitting for Christ's sake.

2:21:49 Speaker 1: Maybe that is not even good enough. Wait a minute earlier, it was no, never was never good enough. This was interesting, interesting to have a sitting.

2:21:57 Speaker 2: You could have both no ice cream, and you wouldn't.

2:21:59 Speaker 1: Be No, no, no, no, no no. You look, there is no proof ever that someone has been able to accurately perform some sort of psychic demonstration. That's the whole James randyness, I don't need a sitting man. You have a belief in these things that may or maybe not be founded. But the problem is you don't have any evidence. You're not saying you're not saying specific Like I can tell you specific things that I know are true, and I'll talk to you about them because I was there or I know about them. I can talk to you about martial arts events.

2:22:35 Speaker 1: I can talk to you about stand up comedy events. I know things that absolutely did happen. And therefore, if you argued with me and said there has never been a UFC fight, well that's not true because I could tell you specific dates. I can tell you what happened, what the result was, I could show you a videotape of it. You don't have that same knowledge of these things. But you have the same conviction that I have when I'm talking about things that are hardcore facts, like a mixed martial arts event or you know whatever, fill in the blank with whatever the event you wanted to be.

2:23:05 Speaker 1: You have that same sort of conviction that these things are real, but you don't have the same kind of hardcore evidence. Not only do you not have the same cud of hardcore evidence. Will give me an example, Give me an example.

2:23:17 Speaker 2: So an example is any kind of information coming from the other side that maybe you don't even know about. Okay, so it can't be explained away as telepathy or clairvoyance because you don't even know about it yourself.

2:23:31 Speaker 1: Give me an example of that.

2:23:32 Speaker 2: Well, pick anything that's that something is going to happen.

2:23:37 Speaker 1: Give me an example of someone actually doing this.

2:23:39 Speaker 2: Okay, so that at Martha just died.

2:23:45 Speaker 1: The fuck is aunt Martha? This is a real person.

2:23:48 Speaker 2: Well, you said, give me an exp No, No, I.

2:23:49 Speaker 1: Want an example of a real psychic prediction that turned out.

2:23:56 Speaker 2: I can fill this table up with examples.

2:23:58 Speaker 1: With literally, I just want one. You don't have to do that. Just give me one that you know about that I listen, I'm saying I have the same conviction in things that I know are real as you have when you're arguing that psychic ability is real. I just want you to tell me one.

2:24:15 Speaker 2: Okay, my own sitting, Okay, my own sitting, Okay. My father came across in the sitting, and my father was killed in a private plane crash when I was eighteen, and it wasn't his plane, it was his partner's plane. And so she tells this to me, and I hadn't thought about anything to do with his partner for decades.

2:24:45 Speaker 1: How long ago was this sitting?

2:24:48 Speaker 2: Long ago?

2:24:48 Speaker 1: How long ago did you have this sitting a few days ago? You're a famous public person and your history is available. Someone could find this out about.

2:24:58 Speaker 2: Oh well, that's maybe true on about the plane crash, but not the first name of the.

2:25:05 Speaker 1: Pilot, not the first name of your your father's partner. Why couldn't someone find that out?

2:25:11 Speaker 2: Yeah?

2:25:11 Speaker 1: Why couldn't someone find out that?

2:25:13 Speaker 2: I think I think because this is over a half a century old. I think it's it's like sixty I'm seventy.

2:25:19 Speaker 1: Six, right, But there was probably a record.

2:25:22 Speaker 2: I think that's stretching it.

2:25:24 Speaker 1: I don't think that's stretching it at all. You couldn't. You were telling me about UFO encounters from nineteen forty seven. You were telling me about people that have seen things. You were telling me about events that happened that are in the historical record.

2:25:36 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's shift to something else. This not ever could not have been written.

2:25:41 Speaker 1: Down, Okay.

2:25:41 Speaker 2: Okay, So in my own, my own setting.

2:25:47 Speaker 1: Okay.

2:25:48 Speaker 2: So my wife passed February nineteenth last year, and she was in and out of hospitals a lot for a long time. I was kind of the nurse at home for a couple of years, and so toward the end she was in the hospital about about three days before she wanted to pass at home. So the challenge was how to get her out of an area in the hospital that was basically a waiting area for people to go to die. It was an area that that's where people were that weren't expected to leave, Okay, alive. And so there was a day there where my son and my granddaughter and I were playing a lot of loud music in the room for my wife and the medium said to me, and I'm recording this, and the medium said, thank you.

2:26:51 Speaker 2: Your wife wants to thank you for all the music that was played for her before she passed all the music, and I said, well, I don't know about any music. I don't remember anything.

2:27:04 Speaker 1: And uh, why did you say that?

2:27:06 Speaker 2: Because I didn't remember.

2:27:07 Speaker 1: I didn't remember playing loud. I didn't remember. Now she talking about how do you remember it now?

2:27:13 Speaker 2: Because of my granddaughter, because I had recorded it, and we listened to the recording together after I had done the sitting, and my granddaughter says to me, pop, don't you remember d D DA? Oh God, that's right. Yeah, well, yeah, I forgot. I completely forgot it.

2:27:32 Speaker 1: Well that's certainly interesting and unusual.

2:27:35 Speaker 2: So what I would I don't know if she would do it, but I think she probably would be a very interested since it's you, and because you are a big figure that and you're easy to learn about. You'd go into this assuming which she's a very very honest person. But you would have to go intosassuming that your everything about you is so public you can find out a lot of things.

2:28:02 Speaker 1: So well, that's the problem that I always have with psychics. Yeah, don't tell me something that the challenge for her.

2:28:08 Speaker 2: Is to tell you, tell you something that nobody else could possibly know.

2:28:13 Speaker 1: But even that, well, nobody else could possibly know as a stretch, right, but tell me something that I don't know? When when whenever I've had friends that have gone had psychic greetings, I always say, well, how did they structure the questions? How? What did this go? How did this go? What did they say? Were they fishing around? Did they accurately get to it? Or did they give you probing questions? First? It's almost always probing questions. And they told me about my grandfather? How could they know?

2:28:39 Speaker 1: I go, you know, you know about your grandfather. Why don't they tell you some shit you don't know. Everybody tells you things you already know. Tell me something I don't know.

2:28:46 Speaker 2: So that'll be the challenge for her, wouldn't it is to be able to to tell you to tell Joe Rogan things that essentially only Joe knows.

2:28:57 Speaker 1: No, don't tell me things I know.

2:28:59 Speaker 2: Okay, tell me things i'd don't tell you a thing.

2:29:00 Speaker 1: Tell me reality that I'm not aware of that has nothing to do with me, or that may happen. So yeah, well something along those lines. Yeah, something where you know, don't say you're gonna spray paint my house.

2:29:09 Speaker 2: Then, but it's supposed to be a sitting for Joe.

2:29:11 Speaker 1: Yes, you're supposed to be I understand. So it's just the problem is they tell you things you already know, and I'm like, this is just I guess, I guess there's something to that, right, there's some sort.

2:29:20 Speaker 2: Of you're saying, Well, then that's only relevant because they're reading my mind, which is a whole.

2:29:28 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying they're they're telling you, they're giving you these questions in a way like I have a friend who does this. He's a mentalist. He does it at Las Vegas, and he tells me it's all bullshit. He tells me how he does it. He tells me how he structures these questions and probes people and gets people to give up information. Then he makes these educated guesses. And then they start saying, oh my god, I can't believe you know that.

2:29:51 Speaker 2: You don't are not supposed to say anything more than yes or no. You don't talk during the sitting. You're supposed to say yes or no. That's or say nothing. That's it. You're not supposed to talk.

2:30:02 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, listen, I haven't experienced this before I try to keep an open in mind. If someone actually could do this, that's pretty pretty spectacular. But to my understanding, and I've spent a lot of time reading about these things and reading about skeptics and the James Randy Challenge and all these different people that have tried to attempt to demonstrate psychic ability that no one has ever successfully done that.

2:30:26 Speaker 2: Okay, let's go back earlier.

2:30:29 Speaker 1: Am I wrong? Jamie? Wait a second, Like if the James Randy Challenge, like he's.

2:30:33 Speaker 2: Oh, he was a fraud, forget he was a lot of people, he wouldn't he wouldn't have ever paid out anything if somebody had been successful. But people all know that, No, he would not have paid it out because he disputed, arbitrarily, disputed everything that would would have been attempted. And finally people quit because he was not going to be fair in his judgment.

2:30:52 Speaker 1: What is fair though, in terms of psychic ability, if you could prove psychic ability shadows what's fair. But what was his what was his rules?

2:31:01 Speaker 2: Like?

2:31:01 Speaker 1: What did he want you to establish?

2:31:03 Speaker 2: I don't care about James Randy, I care about Joe Rogan and talked about this.

2:31:09 Speaker 1: We just stuck with aliens.

2:31:10 Speaker 2: Okay, well, wait a second, wait a second earlier, correct me if I'm wrong. You actually said, yes, there could be legitimate mediums. That's possible, and there can be better ones and and really terrific ones and maybe capabilities.

2:31:26 Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe my problem is that your conviction, your your belief in this is so strong.

2:31:32 Speaker 2: Well, no, but what happened to the Joe of just a little while ago that says, yeah, there can be legitimate mediums, open minded they're all fraud because I know a magician.

2:31:42 Speaker 1: No that that Joe's open minded. I'm willing to believe that it's possible. But I don't understand why you're so convinced by just one story about music in a room. Maybe that's what happened. Maybe this lady tuned in to the the a Kashak wreck and figured out that there's some music in the room.

2:32:02 Speaker 2: When your wife is done, I would argue, start with and time is precious for a busy guy like yourself, but you have to start with reading good literature, reading good books.

2:32:14 Speaker 1: Okay, tell me a good book on psychics.

2:32:16 Speaker 2: I'll have to send you a list. I'll send you a list of things to read, and I'll do that you've got to give me how I do this.

2:32:25 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll talk afterwards. But you understand that most skeptics believe that this is all bullshit.

2:32:33 Speaker 2: Right, Well, they would or they wouldn't be skeptics.

2:32:35 Speaker 1: But I mean that's what they do.

2:32:39 Speaker 2: There's open minded skeptics too. You can be skeptical but still be open minded, right right, and don't. I don't immediately buy off in anything. I'm all I'm told just because I hear something. I like to get to a point where I stay open minded, and then I may start to shift into saying there's more and more maybe to this, let me investigate more. I'm not gonna let go until I let's investigate more. So just because I had one sitting here with this particular person, I've had others years ago, but.

2:33:13 Speaker 1: You seem particularly convinced that, well.

2:33:15 Speaker 2: This particular person was very good. It was a long it was three and a half hours long.

2:33:21 Speaker 1: Let's say. Okay, so there was there another example besides just the music.

2:33:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were there were a number of other examples. I'd have to stop and and uh and regurgitate everything, Okay, because right now I'm pumped up for space questions about space, cosmology ets survival of consciousness and what kind of car is the most fun to drive?

2:33:49 Speaker 1: Well, kind of car is the most fun to drive?

2:33:51 Speaker 2: The Lamberdoodle?

2:33:52 Speaker 1: The Lamberdoodle? What is that?

2:33:53 Speaker 2: It's a it's a name. I gave a car I just bought.

2:33:56 Speaker 1: What is it?

2:33:58 Speaker 2: Uh? It's an orange Lamborghini called.

2:34:05 Speaker 1: URSA or versus, Yeah, versus truck suv.

2:34:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a Yeah, it's an suv.

2:34:10 Speaker 1: Yeah.

2:34:11 Speaker 2: Six and forty horsepower, four wheel drive, eight speeds forward. It's the most fun car I've ever had in my life.

2:34:18 Speaker 1: It's a cool car. My friend Russell Peters has that exact same car. Who does Russell Peters hilarious stand up comedian from Toronto.

2:34:25 Speaker 2: It's an exciting car.

2:34:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, he loves it. He's got the same caror too.

2:34:29 Speaker 2: In fact, I bought two and one's going to be given away at the Larry Rubo Cleveland Clinic Gala in October in Las Vegas. Is going to be auctioned off. Oh really, And the price of that car is two hundred and eighty six thousand dollars. I think out the door. That's tax and everything. And he's going to auction that car. Off and come October, I.

2:34:53 Speaker 1: Think they're lining. I think it's more than that. You should be Think that car's like three hundred and something, isn't it. That's an expensive car? When when uh.

2:35:02 Speaker 2: It says ms r P bass.

2:35:03 Speaker 1: Is the base to eighty for the base? Yeah, Russell's was like super loaded up.

2:35:09 Speaker 2: You want to be at a gala to bid? No? Why not? I got things to do?

2:35:14 Speaker 1: Why not? I'm busy.

2:35:16 Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun. Larry puts on a hell of a show every year for these galas, and they're they're fantastic. Sure, yeah, it.

2:35:23 Speaker 1: Sounds like a good time. So that's the most fun car to drive for me, it has been What other cars have been driven that are like contenders? Uh?

2:35:31 Speaker 2: I have a Corvette my wife bought me when I was turning seventy, and I can't control it.

2:35:39 Speaker 1: Which one is zero one or something?

2:35:41 Speaker 2: It's a sting ray, it's uh, it's it's it's too much car. It's it's goosey on the on the rear end, it's too squirrel again, and I can't predict where it's going to go.

2:35:54 Speaker 1: Well, I just need to learn how to handle it. The new Corvettes are better for that. They they're mid engine.

2:35:59 Speaker 2: Now I can't see out of them. The new one's the rare window. There's no rare window. It's like four inches high.

2:36:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a little smaller, and an.

2:36:05 Speaker 2: Eighteen wheelers up behind you. What do you do?

2:36:08 Speaker 1: Hit the gas? Yeah, don't let them miss behind you.

2:36:10 Speaker 2: They make me too nervous.

2:36:11 Speaker 1: I understand. Yeah, the new ones are pretty sweet though it's uh and there. It's much better traction with the mid engine design.

2:36:18 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:36:18 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get back to aliens. We've been talking for a long time, but I really want to talk to you about this. What evidence do you think is the best evidence in terms of what what physical evidence? Is it just video, is it just uh photographs, or do you think there's physical evidence that either our government or some other government has somewhere that could show beyond a shadow of a doubt. Because I know Jacques Vallet, who was on the podcast before, discussed we're talking about specific metals that have been examined that these alloys, if they had been produced in mass it would be billions and billions of dollars for these alloys, and that this was, although not evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, seemed to indicate that something like because of the examination of these alloys, that this was this is not something that's mass produced in this country right now or in any country right now, like that this is something that if it was done, it would cost an insane amount of money to create, but yet here it is, right.

2:37:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, So people have pieces of things that are like that that have been I don't know, I assume they've gone through electron microscope and for ALEUXI. But there they are very unique in how thin they are, how many layers of material they have, and and the view the opinions are that we can't make.

2:38:04 Speaker 1: Them, and that these things have been recovered from crash sites apparently apparently. Yeah, But that's that is part of the problem, right, is that there's so little real concrete information, like there's there's no consortium of scientists that's aligned together that's saying this is one from another planet. We we've all examined this, We've got together with the people at Stanford and we we've done these tests and this is what we know. And here's the press conference, right that that's never happened yet.

2:38:37 Speaker 2: Well, so far, there have been investigations on these materials and they're anomalous. Yeah, do you think that's the they could be uh, you know something that's uh oh part of the part of the uh the UFO, you know some bowl that they hate out of, you know what? Who knows? And because how can you tell about a craft just because of one little.

2:39:10 Speaker 1: Piece other than Bob Lazar's experiences, which you know he has of course the most spectacular experience. Actually haven't been there at S four. You know. I wish there was a way we could convince whoever is in charge of that to allow people to film this, to allow people to examine this, to bring in the scientific community if it is a real thing. But the other the other thing about the bizarre story was that element one fifteen. What are your thoughts on that this was the idea that there was some super spectacular element that was a new version of propulsion, so instead of shooting something out of the back end, it was literally bending gravity.

2:40:00 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know enough about it to really comment. I mean, I'm not just I'm not saying about anything to do with disparagingly with Bob Azar at all. I'm just talking about the element one fifteen. I have no idea, no understanding of its properties and what it can do or not. I don't have any information like I do on these other subjects survival of consciousness. I don't have any information about element one fifteen.

2:40:31 Speaker 1: Talk to Bob about it.

2:40:33 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, we the conversations about it were or

2:40:44 Speaker 2: somebody had taken his and he was kind of regretful that he had let go of it in some way and he wanted to get it back and and h.

2:40:55 Speaker 1: This was when he was at asked for Yeah.

2:40:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, but I I don't remember much about conversations about how much what all of its properties were, and uh, and that kind of thing. You know, did you bounce a ping pong ball and never it didn't come back to you straight, it took off in a different direction or something, or a candle flame or oh I didn't. I don't know about those things. I don't know, but

2:41:24 Speaker 2: I think that Oh, I had something else I was going to say, And I forget now on that one fifteen, how well, I forget what I was going to say.

2:41:34 Speaker 1: His diagrams of the the UFO of the Oh.

2:41:39 Speaker 2: I know what it was. Okay, getting back to these kinds of treasure. Uh, you were talking earlier that really what ought to happen is there ought to be a major program where you're gathering all the best scientists to analyze the hell out of all these materiurials that have been retrieved. But the problem is, you know, a lot of this stuff purportedly is in corporate hands, corporate hands and some in government hands, okay, and it's it's come to be kind of corporate treasure and national treasure at the same time, because it's because there's a relationship become between a company and the government that has this kind of treasure.

2:42:36 Speaker 2: It's it's a national kind of treasure. No pun intended there, but I mean it's a it's a in a sense, it's a national treasure, right, and so it's also a phenomenal treasure that isn't understood. And so the problem is it may be the most precious thing around. You know, you don't have diamonds that are more valuable.

2:43:03 Speaker 1: Right, you know, especially if it really is found craft exactly.

2:43:08 Speaker 2: And so it's drug out every ten years looked at to see if there's anything that we has improved in ten years on the understanding of X, Y and Z that makes sense, or has something else shifted has something else happened in the last ten years that could make a difference on trying to understand the material or craft or whatever.

2:43:34 Speaker 1: So you think that's what they do with it. They drag it out when technology is advanced and say what do you think now, right, and allow people to examine it.

2:43:42 Speaker 2: And then it goes back in storage because not enough has changed, not enough has changed. You know, we were talking about the speed of our technology, but it's all relative, right, So this technology is so much more advanced. You could do ten years for one hundred years and still be way short.

2:44:04 Speaker 1: Now, how do you know that this stuff is in corporate hands? Is just hearsays the discussions you've had, I would imagine because you're so open about your interests that in your conversations with other people, whether it's at NASA or there's got to be other folks that also have similar interests that come to you and want to talk to you about these things.

2:44:27 Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's a community of people, not necessarily NASA people, but that have been trailing this for years, George Napp for example. And so it's not poorly known that corporate certain corporations are involved.

2:44:54 Speaker 1: It's not poorly known so it's kind of common knowledge among people. Yeah, that operations are involved because they recovered it or they acquired it, and that if they were able to mass produce whatever these alloys are or whatever these particular the properties of these metals are, there would be obviously some amazing commercial value for this stuff.

2:45:16 Speaker 2: It may be too precious for that.

2:45:19 Speaker 1: M What about bodies.

2:45:28 Speaker 2: Now, you're talking about the Las Vegas desert or what.

2:45:30 Speaker 1: I'm talking about? Alien bodies? No, not like Sinatra's Enemies.

2:45:35 Speaker 2: Splashes and lake meat at one o'clock in the morning. Oh, off of a cliff.

2:45:40 Speaker 1: I'm talking about like alien bodies. That was one of the weirdest stories about Roswell was that they had not just recovered crashed UFO, but they had recovered these alien bodies.

2:45:53 Speaker 2: What do you think about Jackie Gleeson's wife's story about he and Richard Nixon. Yeah, Nixon taking him to the base and show him Jackie.

2:46:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that story. I had a friend who knew Jackie Leeson and he said that Jackie Gleeson had recreated in his backyard what he saw what Nixon showed him.

2:46:16 Speaker 2: Wow.

2:46:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, that apparently he was so blown away by Nixon. I guess they were drinking. This is the legend Nixon and Jackie Gleason were drinking. Jackie Leeson's fucking hilarious guy. Probably loved to drink. I mean, definitely love to drink, and probably so fun to drink with him. And Nixon are talking and Nixon says, you want to see a UFO and takes Jackie Gleeson to wherever it was Hangar eighteen or wherever it was where they had this UFO and shows him and apparently changed Jackie Leeson's life, and he couldn't stop talking about it.

2:46:48 Speaker 1: And what I had heard was that he had it recreated in his backyard, this thing. See if there's a story.

2:46:55 Speaker 2: That's a powerful impact, I'm looking.

2:46:57 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he saw something. Yeah, I listen. I'd be friends with Nickson just for that.

2:47:00 Speaker 2: It wasn't because of the booze, right.

2:47:02 Speaker 1: No, No, I don't think it was because of the boost I mean, look, I am a is ridiculous, it sounds or someone who doesn't believe in psychics. I'm a believer. I want to believe, you know. That's probably part of my problem is that I want to believe. Sure, Sure, And also there's so many planets, there's so many stars. Yeah, I mean the universe is literally littered with planets. And the idea that this is it, that you and me, this is as good as a guest.

2:47:33 Speaker 2: Well, the odds of that are a trillion to one.

2:47:35 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not that good.

2:47:36 Speaker 2: It's off the table. The odds are so unlikely.

2:47:39 Speaker 1: And then when you take into account people like Commander David Framer, who I've had the pleasure of sitting down talking to and listening to his explanation. And then when you realize that the way his vehicle, the vehicle that he observed moved, mirrors what Bob Azara talked about from nineteen ninety. Now we're talking, we're in this weird realm of like, huh, So I'm a believer. So if the government has it, I mean shit in the nineteen sixties when Nixon was president and him and Jackie Gleeson are partying that that's a credible story, or at least a fun one.

2:48:18 Speaker 2: I always thought it was you find anything.

2:48:20 Speaker 1: I can't find the thing about the backyard because it just keeps bringing up his Ufo house he had in New York, which a ufo shaped house, and a bunch of interest inside. Oh whoa, yes, maybe that's part of it, okay. Upon his arrival, armed guards took Glease into a building in a remote location on the site. There, Gleason, who harbored an intense interest in UFOs, saw the embalmed bodies of four alien beings two feet long with small, bald heads and big ears. He was told nothing about the circumstances of the recovery.

2:48:51 Speaker 1: He swore his wife to secrecy, but after their divorce, Beverly freely discussed the story. That bitch, he swore his secrecy. That's what That's what happens when need to divorce them. In the mid nineteen eighties, when ufologist Larry Bryant sued the US government to get it to reveal its UFO secrets, he tried, without success, to subpoena Gleason. Holy shit, So that's the thing in his house, that's his backyard, that's his UFO house. So he built a house that So that was what they were talking about.

2:49:24 Speaker 1: It wasn't that he just built a UFO. He built a fucking house shaped like a UFO. Where is that New York? Is that still there? That's what I'm talking about, bro That's what I'm talking about. It was for sale. Here's the com thing for twelve million. Oh that's a little steep for a fucking negotiable, but it's Jackie Leason. It's probably worth it just because he's Jackie Gleason's Listen. The Hustler is one of my all time favorite movies. I'm a pool player and so that movie. I've seen that movie literally probably one hundred times because he used to.

2:49:58 Speaker 1: They used to put it on in the Execs can have Billiards and White Plains, New York. They would play it late at night all the time, so we would be playing pool. They'd put The Hustler on. Everybody loved it. Such a great movie, and Jackie Gleason was amazing in it, and a serious role too, not a comedic role at all.

2:50:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was great in The Honeymooners, wasn't he just great?

2:50:14 Speaker 1: And everything? Jackie Leason is great and smoking the bandit. Yeah, he was just creat I love that guy, but I love him even more because he's a UFO freak. Do you think that they have some sort of body somewhere? Yeah, you do, I do. What makes you think that?

2:50:38 Speaker 2: I think? What what what would be. Why do I think that trying to narrow it down? Mm hmm, Well, I think that I'm trying to not get into conversations. So I think that because it's in the I think there are enough different kinds of sources in the media about people seeing things. I did an interview years ago with Saffro Henderson and Stan Freedman and Kevin Randall went to her house in California because her husband was Patty Henderson, and Patty Henderson was one of the pilots that flew material, flew stuff out of right pat And she said, he said they were in a grocery store one day and the Inquirer had a big article aliens revealed so on and so forth, and there's the checkout stand, and she said he took the story seriously and as after they checked out, he said, well, I guess I can tell you now because it's out.

2:52:12 Speaker 1: So he told about the Inquirer was serious.

2:52:14 Speaker 2: He thought it was whatever it was inchoir, I think it was could have been some other one, but I just used that.

2:52:19 Speaker 1: As a as a one of those tabloids, as.

2:52:21 Speaker 2: One yeah magazine, and and he said, well, I guess it's the stories out I can tell you now about I flew the crates records and crates and wreckage out of out of and he told about the whole UFO thing. And I believe that she said that he said to her there were bodies.

2:52:46 Speaker 1: Now, this was part of the story that went with the whole Roswell crash was that there was a local mortuary that was told to make small coffins right, and people had said that they had seen these bodies, and that the wreckage was flown in three two separate planes to write Patterson Air Force Base, and that if they really thought it was just a balloon, why would they why would they fly it in two separate planes to write Patterson? And that Truman was Truman right?

2:53:15 Speaker 2: Why was it they couldn't recognize balloon material from something else? And you had a brief field there was a quarter mile wide, half a mile long.

2:53:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all pretty fantastic stuff. But again, part of my problem is I want to believe. That's part of my problem is that I'm willing to bullshit myself.

2:53:33 Speaker 2: So do you do you believe in a God force, a God force, a god or God or a God force? Do you believe there is such.

2:53:40 Speaker 1: A thing, what can you define it?

2:53:43 Speaker 2: Well, do you have any belief that there is a supreme being of the universe or a god force of some kind?

2:53:59 Speaker 1: I don't think it's impossible. I don't know. I don't know what what creates a big bang?

2:54:06 Speaker 2: Like?

2:54:07 Speaker 1: What what starts this whole process? What? What causes nature? What? What causes all these elements to fuse and create carbon based life? Causes? What causes planets to exist in a Goldilock's range around the Sun? Is it just happenstance? Is it coincidence?

2:54:22 Speaker 2: Is it just big bang? You know, is on its way out?

2:54:25 Speaker 1: The big Bang's on its way out.

2:54:26 Speaker 2: It's on its way out.

2:54:27 Speaker 1: Oh okay, So it's like fossil fuels.

2:54:31 Speaker 2: So string theory is on its way out, is it? Yep?

2:54:35 Speaker 1: Well not all those guys have been scribbling shit on legal pads for years.

2:54:38 Speaker 2: So, like a friend of a physicist's friend of mine said very recently that perhaps the entire generation has wasted its time. We've lost an entire generation of people, maybe longer than that, in my opinion.

2:54:52 Speaker 1: So what do they think now?

2:54:54 Speaker 2: The thinking is, first of all, it's a little bit bogus to think that the universe extends only as far as you can see thirteen and a half billion light years.

2:55:07 Speaker 1: I think they don't believe that though. They think that's just as far as we can measure it.

2:55:10 Speaker 2: Right, Well, they assume that the universe is expanding, and they're judging that based on thirteen and a half billion light years of sight. Right. Okay, that may be a very very small neighborhood, but that's as far as the cave wall is, and you're not seeing beyond the cave wall. Right. You're also telling me that you know a lot about the cosmos, and you want me to believe you, but yet you don't know what ninety five ninety six percent of the cosmos is of the energy. You have no idea dark energy, dark matter, You haven't a clue, And you're telling me that you know all of this stuff about the cosmos and you're missing ninety six percent of the information.

2:55:55 Speaker 1: Really, I think what they're trying to tell us is this is what we know so far. I think that's what they're trying to tell us. I think they're as perplexed about dark matter and dark energy as we are, but they have a lot of information about background radiation about the signals that seem to in a neighbor decate, Yeah, in a neighborhood, Yeah, in the neighborhood, neighborhood. Well, if the universe is infinite, thirteen and a half billion years is nothing, it's it's like literally this block, Yeah, not even.

2:56:26 Speaker 2: And then of course what singularity you know, big bang started from? What?

2:56:30 Speaker 1: From what? From that?

2:56:32 Speaker 2: And so string theory is a series of what eleven twelve theories apothesis stand on top of each other, and they all have to be perfect, they all have to fit for it, and you'll wind up with with this other conclusion that basically everything started from nothing.

2:56:47 Speaker 1: Well, they don't think it starts from nothing. They think it started from an infinitely small point that exploded in an instant and created all the matter that we see in okay verse today.

2:56:57 Speaker 2: So I can see the head of a pin as not being nothing.

2:57:00 Speaker 1: Conceive that, Well, better concede it, because it's got more matter.

2:57:04 Speaker 2: I've got to concede that.

2:57:07 Speaker 1: Okay, Right, it's just a theory. So it's just an opinion, right, But it's an opinion by people that have been studying this their whole lives, and they.

2:57:14 Speaker 2: Now it's out, it's going out the door.

2:57:16 Speaker 1: It is.

2:57:18 Speaker 2: That's what I've been told.

2:57:19 Speaker 1: Who told you that the psychic.

2:57:21 Speaker 2: Now, if I correlate the physicists that told me that along with the psyche, you really have something here.

2:57:29 Speaker 1: No. I think there's been a bunch of different ideas about the Big Bang, whether or not that's a constant cycle of expansion and contraction, and then there's been.

2:57:41 Speaker 2: I kind of actually like that one. Yeah, I like that study a certain kind of steady state of elasticity, an expansion and contraction that continues to go on and on with an orderly force being whatever dark entergy in dark matter is to maintain organization structure, to mean harmony in everything. So you each maximum elasticity and then it starts to retract again. Yeah, to your density is maximum density and you do this all over.

2:58:11 Speaker 1: That's that is a theory that I've heard. I like that one. Another theory that I think is pretty fascinating is the theory that inside of every black hole might be another universe. That the idea of inside every galaxy apparently is a super massive black hole that's exactly one half I think it's one half of one percent of the mass of the entire galaxy. So this intense massive black hole at the center of every galaxy. And the theory, at least the one that I had read, was that if you could go through that black hole, you would enter into another universe, and that each of these galaxies has infinite like there's infinite number of galaxies essentially, right, there's hundreds and hundreds of billions of galaxies and each galaxy as a black hole inside of it, a super massive black hole, and that through that you would go into another universe, and that there's infinite universes because there's there's just all these portals and inside each one of them there's hundreds of millions of galaxies or hundreds of billions of galaxies.

2:59:16 Speaker 1: Each one of them has a black hole. Go through that you reach more universes with hundreds of billions again, and it's just that's true infinities.

2:59:23 Speaker 2: And you can have the same effect if you have infinite bubbles, so you have multiverses right out of these bubbles. And maybe the bubbles are one hundred or two hundred billion light years in diameter, you know, and they just have unlimited So I don't buy that there's that space is finite. I think it's endless. I don't think thever was a beginning. I don't think there was an end to the universe. And so I think I think time is only relevant when you're when it's connected to some kind of matter or electrical energy or like electrons or protons or something like that.

2:59:54 Speaker 2: And otherwise there's no time because what are you measuring at against? Right? So, so that means that, okay, time could be infinite. Okay, and so is distance. There was no beginning and there is no end.

3:00:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, that freaks us out, But so shid thirteen and a half billion years, thirteen and a half billion light years. That should freak you out too. All of it is beyond our possibility of understanding because it's just so massive. Like when you see the number thirteen billion, it's like, okay, I see it. I know how many zeros are, but my brain's not ready for that. It doesn't really compute. Yeah, but what does that have to do with the concept of God? Though?

3:00:35 Speaker 2: So I was asking you do you believe in a god force? And you said yes, you think so.

3:00:40 Speaker 1: I realized, I said, it's it's certainly possible.

3:00:42 Speaker 2: Okay, Now, why do you think it's possible.

3:00:44 Speaker 1: Because the universe is so spectacular that the idea that there's some force that's created it doesn't make it any less spectacular, or it's so insane. Just what you're looking at on a night sky, a clear night sky, if you're in a place with no light pollution, is so insane. The idea that there's some God force as well that makes all these things happen and creates all these things, and there's there's actually like a good path and a bad path for at least a sentient life forms, and that there's some sort of ultimate goal for this this matter coalescing like that's possible.

3:01:23 Speaker 2: So if you think there's a God force, this omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, what role does thought play in that?

3:01:34 Speaker 1: It's a good question. The thought could be what we were talking about earlier, that this could be how this human animal creates, how this human animal innovates, and how it interacts with other animals and gives it motivation to create and innovate, and this is what creates this new form of life. I've often said that I think that human beings might be some sort of biological catapory pillar that gives birth to an electronic butterfly, that we create something because of our desire for innovation and for material possessions and for there's a lot of weird instincts that people have.

3:02:12 Speaker 1: You got to wonder how are they serving us? Like, how is it serving us to live your whole life to try to buy a new house? And alexis like, what is it? What is it about that? Well, there's something about the pursuit of material possessions that encourages innovation and encourages the production of things. That's what people do. They make things. And if this is what our goal is, just like a bee makes a beehive and we make things, what's the ultimate expression of those things? Well, the ultimate expression would be a new form of life.

3:02:41 Speaker 1: And it seems there's a lot of work being pushed in that direction. There's a lot of work being pushed in the direction of artificial intelligence of robotics. I mean, there's so much research that's going on right now to try to create these autonous things that move around on their own, whether it's autonomous soldiers for the battlefield, or whether it's drones that can fly themselves and operate on on artificial intelligence, like there's this direction is going to eventually if you talk to people far smarter than me, like Elon Musk is terrified of it because he thinks it's unchecked and that it's going to lead to something that's super potent, sentient, far smarter than us and has no use for us.

3:03:30 Speaker 1: The next not a good thought. Not a good thought.

3:03:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, So so then you keep it open that God can be a creator and can respond to the power of prayer. If you're if you are praying for somebody, and there are a lot of studies that say the power of prayer works more than just a placebo kind of effect, you know that it actually actually works if you have a control group and a group that you're praying for in a group that's you know, there's been a lot of tests like this that are double blind tests, and it works in a laboratory kind of context. What is it that's responding to the request for prayer?

3:04:10 Speaker 2: Is it a God force? What is it that's responding.

3:04:15 Speaker 1: I don't know that that's true. I don't know that it's true that prayer works like that. I do know that the placebo effect works, and I do though that the mind has extraordinary properties that we haven't harnessed. I do know that people have the ability to change their state of mind and it'll change their physical wellbeing. I do know that people have the ability to boost their immune system through breathing exercises and meditation, and that we don't totally understand how they're doing that, or why they're doing that, or why we can't recreate that without that kind of discipline are an emerging property of being a person who's.

3:04:50 Speaker 2: Written some good books. He's an MD, retired and I guess he he left the hospital world because he was intrigued with the anomalies he found among his patients. And one of his books I think has something to do with the title of the Power of Prayer. His name's Larry Dossi, Doctor Larry Dossi, and and uh, it's a really book that's worth reading. Okay, it's he authored it quite a few years ago.

3:05:20 Speaker 1: And he talks about the power the.

3:05:23 Speaker 2: Power of prayer, power of prayer, and I bet I think he gets into the investigation of the power of prayer that works.

3:05:33 Speaker 1: So that like, well, you know, I think that's also probably works in a negative way too, right, This is what the concept of voodoo was concept of voodoo was that someone puts a curse on you, and they let you know they put a curse on you, and then your life is fucked. And then you get it in your head that your life is fucked, and then you have this self fulfilling prophecy.

3:05:50 Speaker 2: Well, supposedly the results under tested. You know, legitimate test conditions are that the results are great later than you can explain otherwise just because of just you may not even know that you're being prayed for. So it's a control situation, so you don't even know that you're part of the group that's being praised.

3:06:15 Speaker 1: How would you measure that though? When you're talking about response from illness and that everybody varies depending on your immune system and there's a lot of different things your nutrition, youth health.

3:06:25 Speaker 2: I think that gets into how the tests are set up right in order to make sure that they're balanced in the in the in the in the group, the sample group that's being prayed for, or the person maybe it's an individual.

3:06:40 Speaker 1: I think if someone knew you were praying for them, it would help. That seems to make a lot of sense if you know you're being loved to make you feel better, to make you energized. When you're loved, there's a feeling or reaction.

3:06:54 Speaker 2: According to the literature, not in his just his book, but others that that it helps. Also the number of people that are praying for you, and how committed everybody is to that that they're that, how earnest they are in the effort, so apparently that matters.

3:07:11 Speaker 1: What do you think about all that, Jamie, It's a lot, it's a lot to think of. Listen, Robert, we have we've had a long conversation here. I think we're at three hours in yeah, three three hours restaurant break and I'm just say, you're amazing. A lot of a lot of people they tap out early, they run out to pee. Now you handle it like a champ. But uh, thank you for all your work. Thank you for all the things you're you're interested in investigating, and thank you for your time to come here and sit down and talk to me.

3:07:43 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you, this is my pleasure. I this is for me that it's a it's a great honor to be able to be on your show.

3:07:50 Speaker 1: Thank you. It's an honor to have you. I appreciate it. Thanks, thank you very much thanks, all right, goodbye everybody,