The Life of A Navajo Paranormal Ranger (Feat. Jonathan Dover)

0:00 Speaker 1: In the far reaches of the American Southwest, where the masas cut the sky and the stars burn like ancient beacons. Stories have been told for centuries of star beings who came down from the heavens teaching mankind the ways of creation and the way of destruction. And on the lands of the Navajo Nation, the unexplained has never been just a stored it's been in reality. For most encounters with UFOs, cryptids and witchcraft, they are whispered about in camphire pales or hushed inside of a skiff, and then talked about in secret, classified reports.

0:34 Speaker 1: But for one man, one man who arrived respected for quite a while and really have wanted to have on the show and have a conversation.

0:41 Speaker 2: With these weren't just legends, they were case followers.

0:44 Speaker 1: Today we're joined by a legend who's worked that Razor's ed been lined between the spiritual and the scientific. Attendant Jonathan Redberg, do Navo ranger with over three decades in law enforcement, trained in archaeology, forensics, tactical operations, yet sign to investigate what others dismissed as vocal cryptid sightings like skin walkers, haun things, witchcraft, and UFOs over the Sacred desert lands, across cultures across the globe, the Dogons of Africa to the Maya, Central America, from the Sumerian carvings, all the way back to the Navajo standpaking humanity has been telling the same story, beings descending from the stars, knowledge beyond comprehension, and technology that feels more like em than discovering.

1:30 Speaker 1: Are we rediscovering what ancient civilizations once knew? Or are we being reminded of who's still watching? This is full of disclosure and it's time we open the official case file for the Unknown, with.

1:43 Speaker 2: Navajo ranging my book. Oh, welcome to the show, John Welcome.

1:55 Speaker 1: I've had such tremendous respect and honor for you and to have you here today. I think we talked a little bit about it this sastage, So I really want to say thank.

2:05 Speaker 3: You, thank you for having me.

2:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, your story, I mean it's one your your story almost it's almost written for TV or written for uh sci fi films, and uh it just your your life. Seems like it has just been such a thrilling adventure. And I really want to obviously want to get into a lot with you about mythology and the Navo and you know the Curse of the skin Walker and you all that good stuff. But I really do want to get to know who John Dover is. So before we dive into the unknown, can you tell us what led you into law enforcement and ultimately the NAVO Rangers.

2:55 Speaker 3: Well, I had an interest in law enforcement. I had worked for McDonald douglas in Monrovia, California, and really liked it, and that was just security work. I had applied with the Cocamino County Sheriff's Department and I ended up, out of one hundred and fifty applicants, being ranked number two, but they were only hiring one. But it encouraged me because I knew I could compete. So after that I kind of, you know, looking for work, and they had a position showing a naval nation, a little notice in the chapter house that said they're looking for a ranger.

3:51 Speaker 3: I had no idea what a ranger it was, and so I did my application that got sent in. Window Rock is about one hundred and thirty miles away. They sent my application in and next thing I know, they said I had an interview. So the chapter at the time had a job program that helped you secure work. So they actually gave me a ride to window Rock. Back in those days, it was a lot of it was dirt road, so travel to window Rock. I went in the office, met with the ranger director and he asked me only one question.

4:34 Speaker 3: He said, how do you feel about somebody threatening your life or the life of your family? And I immediately shot back. I immediately told him. I says, well, I'll take a three hundred savage and cut the ears off at two hundred yards. And he looked at me and he says, you're hired. Still didn't know what a ranger was.

5:06 Speaker 1: So you knew what a ranger was in the context though, so you just didn't know what a Navajo ranger was, right right.

5:15 Speaker 3: So after that, I find out that their job is resource law enforcement and protection. So it includes all areas of renewable and non renewable resources, so game and fish, forestry, just you know, minds, minerals, water resources, everything. And then there was a search and rescue component that was included that we were tasked with under tribal code. And then on top of that, you had to attend the police academy and on occasion you'd have to do police work and within the park areas because we are park rangers, we were the park police.

6:13 Speaker 3: So I get a memory them that says you're to attend the Navu Police Academy for six months and back then police academies for only twelve weeks, so to have one to go twenty four weeks was pretty pretty chanos. And I went to the police academy and my memorandum that I got said that if you don't pass the police Academy, you'll be terminated. So I went in. I thought, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this. There are four rangers total that went in the police academy. This is the Navaju Police Academy. And we spent six months in this police academy.

7:04 Speaker 3: And I finished with the top honors for the academy including the Outstanding Cadet Award and Academics and Marchmanship. And you know, all four rangers completed that course. I of seventy seven students that were assigned to it, only thirty two graduated.

7:34 Speaker 2: Geez, so very selective, very very selective.

7:39 Speaker 3: Yeah, very tough. And after I finished, I still had to be I was certified in Arizona. I went to additional training to be certified in New Mexico, and I helped help commission cards with Coconino County what they call reprosody, and so I was state certified, I was tribally certified, and then we had to be federally certified under what they call it SLEC, which is a Special Law Enforcement Commission under the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

8:18 Speaker 2: Wow.

8:19 Speaker 1: So it's a very long process and it's a very grueling process. Now again, you you kind of said it from the beginning that you thought that this was odd, that it was so intense or did were you just not even thinking about that.

8:37 Speaker 3: I had no idea at the time. And Naville Police decided that they wanted to do one academy with an emphasis on academics as opposed to physical stuff. So that's what I was involved in, and there were there was one guy that was ahead of me. He would later on become the chief of police for Naval Nation. But towards the end of the academy, everybody was relaxing, and just like the long distance wonder that I was at the time, I decided I'm going to sprint to the finish line and Elliott work even harder, and I passed from just by a few points.

9:25 Speaker 2: Oh that's that's amazing.

9:28 Speaker 1: So okay, and and now okay, you become you become a ranger. Now, for folks who aren't familiar, what separates? So?

9:41 Speaker 2: Why why are why is the police?

9:43 Speaker 1: Why is there a different police force on a reservation and off a reservation? And what where does that separation begin?

9:50 Speaker 2: And why?

9:53 Speaker 3: Well, the navalination is sovereign, so the US government deals with the naval nation at a state department level. So because we're sovereign, you're literally going into another country when you come onto any reservation. And there's five hundred and seventy four reservations across the United States, or at least that many tribes. Some of them don't have reservations. And then after that the more intense training started. The police academy is just the basic. After that, I was loaned out to the National Park Service for six months and trained in They call it interpretation.

10:42 Speaker 3: This is not language interpretation, This is interpreting the landscape and the artifacts and everything else within the monument. There After that, I went through game and fish training, forestryt training, just every kind of uh, law enforcement training for resources that you could get into, and I was already a specialist with ropes. I was an instructor in the Academy for Technical Rescue because that had been one of my uh one of the things I'd love to do is to climb m So I ended up putting on the course for one week for the for the Police Academy while I was a student there, and later on became the instructor for Hengel Technical Rescue.

11:43 Speaker 1: Interesting, so so when did where how long is it before you become a ranger and till the moment or or how long is it until you climbed to a degree where then you get asked to do this.

12:03 Speaker 3: Well, you're asked to do it almost immediately, but we used to like to say it would on average it would take three years to fully train a ranger and and so you know, it was a pretty demanding process. There was a lot of like we did livestock issues issues with people that had disputes. So they're civil matters, but we would get involved in those livestock that even even cattle cattle mulations livestock.

12:44 Speaker 2: Yeah.

12:47 Speaker 3: So yeah, Stan had a rather startling one and I think he recorded it in this book The Paranormal Ranger, where he had dirty sheep that died inside of her out overnight. And these sheep, he said, were split open from the groin all the way to the to the job boon, and there was no blood. And I don't know if you've ever cut sheep skin before, but it's tough.

13:20 Speaker 4: Uh.

13:21 Speaker 3: The wool is so tough that railroaders that were running trains hated to hit a herd of them because it could literally wrap up in the trucks and derail a train.

13:37 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, that's so so what you're implying is that too.

13:45 Speaker 2: To Okay, I'm sorry, continue, I see where you're going.

13:49 Speaker 3: So he said that when he got there, there was a metallic smell in the air. The dogs, the sheep dogs would not go anywhere near that corral. The vet came out and could not tell anybody what had happened or what had caused us. And he said that the wounds almost looked like they had been cauterized. They were the straightest, narrow.

14:20 Speaker 1: So like with precision. Yes, and this is done overnight to twenty plus of these sheep, and there's an ozone metallic taste in the air and so I mean, so okay, So it sounds like you guys are introduced now, because let me maybe I miss something when when you're when you sign up, you said.

14:44 Speaker 2: You didn't know what a ranger was.

14:47 Speaker 1: When did you find out that being a ranger included

14:54 Speaker 1: investigating the paranormal, investigating these otherworldly you know, encounters and things that you know, maybe the sovereign nation of the United States didn't recognize or doesn't recognize as being real.

15:13 Speaker 3: Well, you have to understand that when I entered in nineteen eighty, the rangers had been established since nineteen fifty seven and they were modeled on the National Park Service ranger. So we were there really to be helpful as much as we could. And that's how we were trained at meeting with tourists and giving directions and you know, just just trying to be helpful. Now, all rangers experienced some level of paranormal activity going on in their districts, and this was just a matter of fact, read kind of like an everyday occurrence, But you didn't talk about it because number one, you didn't want anybody to say you're crazy, because the government had been ridiculing people that reported UFOs, so the officers would not talk about it.

16:22 Speaker 3: They had encounters with bigfoot, encounters with skin walkers, and counters with hauntings, and they just they just it went unset. In my early career, I had many cases where I saw UFOs, some of them up close, you know, all different types dis cigar shapes, squares orbs, you know, triangles, and and you just kind of kept it to yourself. You didn't really say anything. It wasn't until two thousand that we actually got officially involved, and Stan and myself were in a meeting the department. Meeting had been called for reservation wide.

17:21 Speaker 3: Everybody, drive the window off and sit down and hear what the chief ranger had to say. Chief ranger had sent two officers, both of them were rookies, to take a report of the bigfoot that grandma and grandpa had seen step over their corral. And these corrals are you know, about four feet tall, and grab a sheep, tuck it under its arms, step over again and walk off with it. What so Grandma and Grandpa report this and the two rangers that got sent, both of them are kies. Both of them. If you knew them, you'd understand this.

18:04 Speaker 3: Uh. There we call them jokers, you know, they're they're always got some kind of a private little joke going, always giggling and laughing about everything, and they're they're fun to be around, you know, because they're they lighten up the atmosphere. Yeah, but Grandma and Grandpa saw them giggling and laughing about something, and that they thought they were laughing at them. And one thing about Navigo culture is if an elder choose you out, you don't say anything. You just you respect them and you just listen.

18:44 Speaker 3: And they came in and they chewed out our chief ranger, so in turn, you know, they say it rolls.

18:51 Speaker 2: Down hill, down hill.

18:54 Speaker 3: And chewed us out. And then he said, from now on, these cases will be investigated professionally and technically, and reports will be written. Then he turned to Stan and I and he said, and he pointed his finger, I remember that, And he said, and YouTube are going to get all the major cases. And we kind of looked at each other, and I looked at Stan and thought, we've just been all and told, right, and that was it. Now we think that the reason we were picked was that Stan was born on the reservation, but he was raised in Oklahoma, near Tallaquah.

19:45 Speaker 3: I was born and raised in Los Angeles, but spent all my summers on naval reservation, so we had a different upbringing that didn't h buck Navajo religion and traditional thought, so we were the best prepared for it. Plus we were in a position where both of us were in an area called Special Projects. Special projects was created to handle the major investigations that other departments were requesting criminal investigations, and at the time, I was a certified criminal investigator, having gone through the school at Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

20:40 Speaker 3: So we just said, oh, that's that's cool, you know, and I think we both thought we're going to be the.

20:46 Speaker 1: X Files right with the Navajo Fox Moulder, and you know that that's that's awesome.

20:56 Speaker 3: So after that, we were in almost immediately received our first case, which was over thirty people in the ship Rock area having sightings some Bigfoot, and we went over there and we did basically three day, two night investigation on bigfoot.

21:22 Speaker 1: So I want to stop here and I want to do something because I feel like you have a lot of amazing stories to tell. Let's right there, what does that it look like? What is an investigation? And especially your first investigation. How did you approach a to night three day investigation into a cryptid creature such as quote unquote Bigfoot.

21:52 Speaker 3: Okay, what we did, since we were in charge of this thing, is we set out observation posts at night, were armed with rangers that had Between all the rangers we had three Itt Fleer sets. These are basically twenty thousand dollars Ford looking in for red systems. We also every tactical officer I think there were seven of us, had the PVS fourteen night vision monocular that we also use, So we had officers out at night that could basically see in the night with light amplification. Then during the day these officers would go to the different presidences.

22:49 Speaker 3: What they taught me and criminal investigations, they have an acronym called gooya cod which means get off your a and knock on door. And so we went basically through the whole community knocking on doors and asking people about their sightings or what they had heard or seen, and we got lots and lots of stories. At the end of that, we tracked, we found footprints, we got hair samples off the barbed wire fences that this thing stepped over. We saw one place where a huge, huge log was in a boggy area and this thing had literally picked this log up that was half buried in the mud and just picked it up and flung it to the side, and it ended four or five feet away on one pole of that or one side of the pole, and the big fit experts told us that it was looking for grubs.

23:57 Speaker 3: We found foot track evidence with stride distances of five feet, you know, just huge footprints that we tracked into the brush, into the tamaracks. The whole time we're getting bit up by mosquitoes and stuff. So we didn't find evidence, and we did get DNA samples, and those samples were sent off and came back unknown carnival.

24:31 Speaker 2: Unknown carnival.

24:32 Speaker 1: Now what are you using reservation lab or a US lab.

24:41 Speaker 3: This was a private US lab And you have to understand that when the lab sends this DNA to the database, the database is composed of DNA samples from animals all around the world. Right, So for them to come up with unknown carnivore is amazing. You know that now they're they have miochondrial DNA tests and we didn't run any of that type that we just ran a basic DNA profile. But it should have been it should have showed up. You know, if it was an ABE, it would have told us.

25:22 Speaker 1: What type exactly, exactly exactly. And like I said, the fact that so that is I mean it. People often in this community, the skeptical people in the community, they say, there's no evidence to suggest that there's anything, uh, you know, anything such as cryptids or non human intelligence. But from your first case, you have evidence, like literal evidence of an unknown.

25:59 Speaker 2: Crypt did creature.

26:02 Speaker 1: Who I'm sorry, I don't even think you said what the case like, what actually happened.

26:07 Speaker 2: To prompt the case?

26:09 Speaker 1: But it wasn't the same one with the grandpa and grandma righte.

26:14 Speaker 3: It was a different one.

26:16 Speaker 1: It was a different one. But it's still so this So this thing, you know, stepped over the corral, grabbed an animal and stepped back over, took off and then left hair behind.

26:28 Speaker 2: And that's the hair that you had to analyze.

26:30 Speaker 3: Right well, in the case of the the Shipwrock case. Yeah, actually it was up closer to Bloomfield in New Mexico, which is close to Farmington. This thing stepped over barboy fence, not to get a sheet, but just to travel yeah, and and as it stepped over, the barboy picked up some of the hair and pulled it out. Wow. In the case of the old couple, they had a wooden corral made out of a little uh, you know, like.

27:10 Speaker 2: Poles yep, yep.

27:14 Speaker 1: So okay, quite fascinating, so is it. And again, you've grown up on the Reds, you Stanley's is grown up on the Reds. So again this is kind of like, does this freak you out? Or does this kind of just solidify the fact that there are things that do go bump in the night?

27:38 Speaker 3: Well, like I said, we knew about them for a long long time. The people on the naval reservation they just say, yeah, he's out there, you leave him alone, He'll leave you alone, and that's it. And they'll also tell you never look at it in the eye, because if you look at it in the eyes, it can take your mind over. Now, that statement always puzzled me until I spoke to a medicine man and he told me that Bigfoot had had interactions with the Navo people all the way back to the sixteen hundreds. And he told me a story that just north of Gallup, Navajo's were riding horses because they had gotten them from Spanish that came here looking back when they were looking for Sibola, the seven series cities of gold, and so of course you know, they acquired horses.

28:48 Speaker 3: I don't know how, but they got them these They saw Bigfoot near where they lived. A bunch of men wrote out there on the horses, and they roped it, and they specifically said they used braided horsehair lariats to rope it with. They said that this thing sat down being roped, and in the midst of them spoke to them in Navo and said, if you will take me to Ma Severti and let me go, I will not come this way again and trouble you. Now what's amazing about that story? And later on I thought about this because as an investigator you're trying to put information together to make sense.

29:44 Speaker 3: It occurred to me that Bigfoot is telepathic because Naviho, even for somebody trying to learn it, is a very very difficult language. That's why it was so effected if in World War two as a code and and you know, you just you don't just start speaking. So what happens is that if it looks you in the eye, it can communicate with you in what you perceived to be your own language. But I just find find that amazing.

30:26 Speaker 2: But so wow, wow, So it was it? Because was it?

30:33 Speaker 1: So?

30:33 Speaker 2: So?

30:34 Speaker 1: There was almost like a quid pro quo between early Navo and these cryptid creatures, like, hey, listen, let me go.

30:44 Speaker 2: I wasn't I'm not trying to bother you guys.

30:48 Speaker 1: You know, let me go, and I won't come back this way, we won't have any issues. So would you say that that kind of is that? Essentially what you're saying is there was this kind of quid proquo between whatever this creature is and whatever they are and what they represent and the Navo people.

31:09 Speaker 4: They coexisted, Yeah, they did coexist, and it's my understanding that they rode with it between the horses still rope and went all the way up to Masaverti.

31:24 Speaker 3: Is there anything let it go? There?

31:27 Speaker 1: Is there anything special about masa Verte that we should know about?

31:32 Speaker 3: Masaverti is the where the cliffdwellers lived, and so there's even a more ancient civilization that had been gone probably from ten to seventy AD. They disappeared and they left all their their ruins, just like Chocoal Canyon. So you know, we don't know what significances, but there is something going on there.

32:05 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So then okay, so this is your I mean, this is if that's your first case, what happens next?

32:15 Speaker 3: Oh well, we had UFO cases. We had a rather famous one where a guy had one land about a quarter mile away from his house and come to his house in the middle of the night and he was looking out through his window because he locked his doors, he knew they were coming. And there's a big, long story involved in that. That's that you can you know, probably here on one of our other deals. But long story short, he was looking through the window and he saw what he called little children. You know, twelve thirty one thirty morning and he's gotten no electricity except for these little little lights solar lights around his house, and he is getting upset.

33:12 Speaker 3: You know, what are these little children doing? He said. They were small, about three and a half four feet tall, They had big heads, they had big black eyes, and they wore a skin tight either white or light gray outfit on them. And you know, he went out the front door and went around the house to because they were in the back, and he tried to turn the corner and surprise them with a flashlight, and he says that he tripped on the concrete steps behind his house and fell down. The guy's, you know, in his mid eighties at the time, and so you know, and I know, any fall like that, yeah, right, And when he looked up, he says, these things were in line and drifting back up the hill like they were straddling something.

34:18 Speaker 1: What drifting up the hill do you mean like, yeah, like levitating off the ground to a degree, or.

34:27 Speaker 3: That's that's correct. What the And they made no sound, you know, as far as i'm I think, you know, I'm just making the supposition is that they they were on some kind of.

34:44 Speaker 2: A vehicle, got it.

34:48 Speaker 3: And if you think about it, our Navy seals do that today. They ride on the tubes exactly.

34:54 Speaker 2: I was just I was literally just going to bring that up.

34:56 Speaker 1: And then, you know, I'm sure you heard about this case that you know, case in what was it Brazil, South America where the.

35:06 Speaker 2: Face peeler things that all not that story? Did you hear that?

35:13 Speaker 3: I'm not sure there's so many of them.

35:16 Speaker 2: Well this was recent, like really recent.

35:18 Speaker 3: Where like oh okay, I don't think I've heard that one yet.

35:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, the government tried to explain it away as mercenaries with jet packs. That was the official narrative that they put forward. It was pirates with jet packs. But these things were coming down and they were trying to take biological material from the the people there, and they called them face peelers. I mean, it's a but again, it kind of just drives me back to this notion that like on like on the Res and in South America, you know, in these places that have very rich and long history, especially history that incorporates their their maybe maybe religious or their creation uh lore, the more they're they're okay with this kind of thing and it doesn't completely shatter their paradigm.

36:22 Speaker 2: It's part of everyday life.

36:27 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct, And I'm going to digress just a little bit here. One of the things that we attempted to do is to investigate these cases in a thorough manner using the laws of legal evidence. What we uh look for in statements and everything else. Was to vet the people that we talked to. Some of the questions were very embarrassing, uh naturally, you know, and we would tell them upfront, these are going to be really embarrassing. But we'd ask them, Uh, do you use drugs, you know, recreational drugs, Do you use prescription medication?

37:15 Speaker 3: Do you use alcohol? When was the last time you had any of those? And what kind were they?

37:21 Speaker 2: Uh?

37:22 Speaker 3: During the event, And just like an interrogation, you read body language, and so we we would look for facial picks, expressions, the eyes, even the fuels dilating anything that would tell us that the person is making a misleading statement or or out and out, you know, lie to us. And so it was rather thorough. I was a Class three technical accident investigator, and when you investigate accidents, you don't immediately run to the public and say what did you see? Right, You look at the evidence that's on the roadway, and you interpret that evidence based on your knowledge, and you come up with what happened, and then you go see if the witness statements fit what you see on the roadway as skid marks and scuff marks and goalgees and things.

38:33 Speaker 2: Like that exactly.

38:36 Speaker 1: So you're again you're coming at this from the perspective of if I had to go to court, I could present my case and basically essentially prove beyond a reasonable doubt that something. Maybe you don't know exactly what it is, but you know something is happening.

38:57 Speaker 3: That's correct. You investigate, Uh, you put away personal biases. I mean you personally might think this person's nuts, right you You don't allow that to color uh, what you're investigating. You just let the facts need you and let the cards fall where they will.

39:19 Speaker 1: What is you you talked about that that obviously you talked about that case just a minute ago with the coming going up the hill?

39:30 Speaker 2: What what you know?

39:32 Speaker 1: Obviously we, like I said, we just spoke about the UFO sightings on Nava Hole land. But is there is there one that sticks out the most, something that was like that you could take to court and say we have enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this this occurred the way the witness is described.

39:55 Speaker 3: You know, I would say the majority of the cases that we work with, you could we can say that there were a tremendous number of what we classified as flybys. This is somebody that sees the UFO over on this side and they say, okay, you know it flew from here here to hear you know, over to here, and I saw it for maybe five seconds and yeah, so those yeah, we can't.

40:33 Speaker 2: Much.

40:33 Speaker 1: You can't do much with with And that's the thing, you know, with these sightings, and you know, fortunately the rise of technology and the ability of people to have a camera in their pocket, but even then we don't get, you know, as much evidence as we think we might. And nowadays we have a different problem, you know, with people faking things. But these flybys, Yeah, I understand that, you know, there's not much. There's not much you can you to investigate that unless you have a time machine, and you know, we don't currently, not that we know.

41:06 Speaker 3: We've also been asked by a lot of people, well how come they don't take cell phone pictures? And the thing is, when you see a UFO flying through the sky, it already looks like a dot, and you take a picture with a cell phone and you try to blow it up, it becomes pixelated.

41:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, for reference, And I didn't mean to cut you off. I think we're having a little bit of an Internet lag over each other, So I apologize for that. But I'll definitely want to be flying you to Boston or me coming there to have an in person discussion after this, because I could talk with you for hours. But like you had just said, next time, just go try to take a picture of the moon, and a clear picture of the moon on a phone.

41:59 Speaker 2: It just it doesn't work.

42:01 Speaker 1: Even though your eyes are seeing this hd beautiful large moon, your camera shows it as just like this small white, bright light.

42:13 Speaker 3: Right. So, like I said earlier, most officers that work on the Navela Nation have had experiences with skin walkers, with UFOs, with all of this bigfoot, and they just don't talk about it. The only difference is that Scan and I were assign these cases on top of our regular work, and we investigated them thoroughly, we wrote reports, and at the end we decided to talk about these things. And the purpose for us speaking about it was just to just to say these things are there as ours, we can tell they're real.

43:05 Speaker 2: Wow. So was there any at any Was there any point where.

43:14 Speaker 1: Leadership didn't want or didn't necessarily agree with you guys talking about it publicly, because obviously that has to come back on the Nava Nation as a as a sovereign, as a sovereign entity, as as a place, as a you know, a thing inside of the United States that has a reputation, and obviously trying to protect that. Did you ever face any like, hey, please don't do this.

43:48 Speaker 3: Well? At our division level, we had other program managers that would laugh and ridicule and stuff like that, but we were actually encouraged and ordered to do these cases, and we did, no matter how fantastical it might seem. I mean, you get somebody that said that they saw a ghost, you know, how do you handle that?

44:14 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, show me exactly.

44:17 Speaker 3: And yet we go do the interviews, take the case. And sometimes the things would happen right in front of us, and we'd go, there's no explanation for that. We had one case where janitors were working and they saw there's a two story building with stairs and up at the second landing there's metal railing, and they saw, you know, they're they're cleaning, so nobody should be in the building. And they saw a woman with a long dress and they said it was a light colored clothing, and she held her arms out at her side, turned sideways and fell through the railing to the floor.

45:09 Speaker 3: Whoa, and and the girl that was working screamed, and the guy came running in the other the other housekeeping, and there was nothing there on the ground. And so obviously they were pretty pretty freaked out after that. They would not work in a building after the sun went down. So this is that's how much. That's how much it affected them.

45:38 Speaker 2: Wow. And and I mean, so.

45:45 Speaker 1: We've okay, it's kind of interesting because in Navajo, like in the in the oral tradition, there are stories of star people, and I do you see the parallels between you know, the mythology and what you know the witnesses that you're talking about are seeing.

46:10 Speaker 3: Well, in the case of ghosts, we think that we we came up with the theory, a working theory for all of this that explains pretty much everything.

46:23 Speaker 2: So it's all all.

46:24 Speaker 1: That being connected because one thing I say a lot, and again I don't mean interject, but I think the UFOs, the cryptids, the paranormal, what we perceive as the paranormal, and the supernatural. I think it's I think they're all linked to some degree. I just don't know how and exactly why. But again I'm kind of with you that there there's there's there's things that overlap between all of them.

46:52 Speaker 3: Well, we started looking at the navel creation story, right, that tells of the navel people starting off in a world of darkness. They moved through several different worlds and into the worlds they described going through a hole in the sky into the next world, and then they end up in this world in which they call the Shining World. And we started looking at that and thinking, what if they're talking about going through a dimensional gate or a portal. And it started to make sense to us because it could account for UFOs popping into existence and disappearing or fading out.

47:44 Speaker 3: It could account for Bigfoot being tracked and the tracks disappear in tractable ground, and it could even account for stories of ghosts and pull their guys activity. And so we started thinking, maybe this is the answer. So we started coming up with that theory in two thousand and six. To this date, we haven't seen anything that tells us otherwise.

48:15 Speaker 1: And now you must you know, I know that there's like and we can get into this as well.

48:23 Speaker 2: I know there is a bit of.

48:27 Speaker 1: I don't want to call it tension, but maybe it is. Maybe tension is the best word. But there's a divide between the Navo, not all native tribes, I would say most Native tribes, and the United States of America. Like the actual entity the United States of America because of obviously how everything was handled in you know, I don't want to get too political or anything like that, but in the beginning, when when the white man first tried came came in, right, everyone knows the story, right, Christopher Columbia and sailed the ocean blue, and we invaded a land and took it over.

49:12 Speaker 1: Now we and then we've relegated, uh, these reservations and put the native people on them and said good enough, right, And the answer is obviously no, it's not good enough.

49:26 Speaker 2: It's a kind of thing makes me think about, you know, that.

49:30 Speaker 1: Story you told with the with the cryptid and the deal that they came to eventually, right, it's like, hey, we're both here. I won't bother you, don't bother me, and we'll just coexist. But that's not exactly how it went down. So you know, there's there's a divide. So is there is there any you know again again, I come back to this. Now, in US government, you're seeing David Grush testify that the US government has non human biologics and craft of non human origin. I mean, does that feel like some sort of vindication when you hear that?

50:14 Speaker 3: Well, everybody is waiting for something that they call disclosure, and everyone in the country is just sitting on the edge of their seat saying, when is the government going to fess up? Now? For myself and stand and for other native tribes, they are not waiting for disclosure. They've known for hundreds of years that these things exist, and so they don't need the government, you know, to tell them anything. And we have a very strong distrust of the US government because you know, of six thousand treaties being made since fourteen ninety two, and not one of them was ever kept.

51:04 Speaker 3: So you know, that's a pretty impressive track record for treaties. And so everybody complains, you know that the government isn't telling the truth. Well, we know that they're not telling the truth, and.

51:22 Speaker 2: It's never been straight with you guys. Yeah, that's right.

51:28 Speaker 3: So the thing is is that this stuff does exist. We have had visitations for hundreds and hundreds of years by star people. And I saw a picture earlier that you had of some dancers they're called Yevich and not that no, those are old Navajo's, but there was one that they had black masks on and yeah, there Now this picture is put up a lot of times and they say, oh, these are skin walkers. You see that on TV. If you get up on the internet. On the internet, this is the pictures you'll find. But these are Yeba dancers.

52:17 Speaker 3: The Yeba represent the Holy People that came to the Navajo to teach them how to live, how to have morals, how to do things, and give them wisdom. Now, the Yava are usually ten to twelve different dancers, and what's interesting about them is that the last one in the line of dancers they always called clown. The clown does everything backwards. He doesn't listen. If they tell him to do something, he does something else. He chases the girls in the crowd, and he's just totally irresponsible. Right.

53:05 Speaker 3: He actually represents the five fingered people, that's you and me. So this is a commentary by the holy beings saying that this is our people. We're the clown. We don't know how to listen, we don't know how to take construction, and we war with each other, we kill each other, We steal from each other and we should because that's not what the Holy people taught us.

53:36 Speaker 1: And we chase after things when it's detrimental to our you know, our path in life, And yeah, I mean that's so, and that in a lot of these oral traditions that have been passed, oral histories that have been passed down throughout the Native's native tribe. I mean a lot of that's not public information. We can't just you know, there's stuff that you know that we won't. We can't and we shouldn't know, and you keep it out of you And I say that sparingly.

54:13 Speaker 2: But the Navo.

54:15 Speaker 1: Do they think, do they protect this information because it's sacred to them, or do they protect it from people because they don't trust what they'll do with that information.

54:29 Speaker 3: Well, it's a combination of not trusting people with that information. And at the same time, you have to understand that from around eighteen sixty four, it was decided that the Native peoples in the United States would be stripped of their culture. There was a theory that America was a great melting pot and if we could just even though we gave me put them on reservation, if we could incorporate them, melt them into society, that these tribes would cease to exist and take over those lands. They found out that America was not a melting pot.

55:15 Speaker 3: It was a stew Pot and there were chunks. You go up to Minnesota, you'll find, you know, European people up there. If you go, you know, you'll find Puerto Ricans, you'll find Italians, you'll find Germans, you'll find you know, every type of ethnicity you can imagine. There's chunks of them in the United States. But we were told, even through religion, that we could not practice our traditional ways, that we had to give them up in the name of religion and learn to be white people. And so that's why they don't trust anybody this knowledge anymore.

56:01 Speaker 3: It's just not open and out there.

56:05 Speaker 2: Right right now.

56:06 Speaker 1: Back to back to the this this story, the creation story, the way you explained it, the way you kind of walked to me, walked us through it, and you said that they came through a hole in the sky, and it kind of the way I pictured it in my head was maybe, yes, maybe an interdimensional portal, but also

56:35 Speaker 1: could it be maybe that they were underground, under in the earth and then you know, coming up through different worlds or potentially you know, I we we hear these stories that.

56:48 Speaker 2: The the.

56:51 Speaker 1: Inside the earth, there's you know that that I don't I don't know I'm losing my train here, but uh, that there's something underneath that these things may be ultra terrestrial, meaning you know, they live amongst us without our knowledge, and could one of those other worlds be right under us and we not just we not know it.

57:15 Speaker 3: There are stories all Indian tribes have a an internal history that they recount of a flood. Now this is all around the world. And in the naval story, they climb up on the top of shipwreck and that saves the people. The Hopies have a story of being taken by the ant people underground and the entrance is sealed. So I think a lot of those stories probably come from different Indian tribes that may have been taken underground during this time. So there.

58:01 Speaker 1: So yeah, so even in Native American, you know, again it's it's not one size fits all. It's different regions, different tribes, different perspectives, different stories. But again, I like that you bring up the flood, you know, because in in school quote unquote, they taught us that you know, the Natives had no zero, had zero interaction with anyone from the other side of the world. That's the same goes with you know, the Mayans and you know, uh, Sumerians like those, They just they didn't they didn't mingle, there was there was no connection.

58:48 Speaker 1: Yet we see the same story about a flood told and you know, with your archaeology archaeological background, you must know this as well.

58:59 Speaker 2: In the fossil record, it.

59:02 Speaker 1: Shows that there is there's some sort of cataclysm that happened.

59:06 Speaker 2: It happened around.

59:08 Speaker 1: Thirteen thousand years ago and seems to be part of that younger dry Is impact. And I mean, what do you think about all that?

59:19 Speaker 2: Do you? I mean, is that something that you do kind of subscribe to and think is accurate.

59:28 Speaker 3: One of the things I've found from working in the archaeological field is that archaeologists go to college, their professor teaches them that this is the method, and this is what I ascribed to. And so in every archaeological report that they're doing where they're going to do a dig and they're putting this paper together, it usually has a sentence in there that says we expect to find And so they're talking about, you know, what culture they're they're digging up, and they already have a preconceived idea of the things that they're expecting to find based on what their professors taught them.

1:00:23 Speaker 3: If they find anything unusual in there, they don't you know, really put it down as a discovery to be investigated further. They'll just say religious object. Right, And but we have found, uh, the archaeologists have found domesticated turkeys with pens. They've found parents, now where the parents come from South America. They found a city from South America that has a greenish tinged to it that's only found around Mexico. They found pottery from South America and shells, so you know, there were trade routes, extensive trade routes going all through what is now the United States and Canada and South America and that.

1:01:24 Speaker 3: And then there's there's evidence, you know, even the Chinese anchors that were found off the coast of California that explained, you know, back a lot earlier that there was interaction and monolithic mounds that were built, you know, in in the areas of Florida all the way to to through the Gulf Coast area. So lots of information that looks at it and says there could have been a lot of interaction going on.

1:01:59 Speaker 1: And do you I mean it seems to me, you know, again, to me as a you know, traditional white man.

1:02:09 Speaker 2: Right.

1:02:11 Speaker 1: It seems to me that you know, we come into this world, at least us right now, We come into this world and we are taught from an early age that everything is kind of it's black and white, right, it's either it's either there or it isn't right. And it's not until it's not until you have one of these experiences, whether it be spiritual, whether it be otherworldly. It's not until you actually go up against something that you can't explain. And trust me, your brain does everything in its power to try to explain it away and try to rationalize it.

1:02:59 Speaker 2: But there's things that I it forces you almost to see.

1:03:07 Speaker 1: That there are so much more there's so much more gray than we were ever ever let to believe.

1:03:14 Speaker 2: And I think it almost was by design.

1:03:18 Speaker 1: Two, Because if everyone had psychic abilities, and if everyone had all the knowledge of of of of you know, this really rich and amazing free energy and all and and everything that we seem.

1:03:37 Speaker 2: To to uh to talk about in this community.

1:03:42 Speaker 1: It seems if we all had these you know, abilities, that the world would be a radically different place.

1:03:48 Speaker 2: Uh.

1:03:48 Speaker 1: And and you know, the there would be no power vacuum, right, So it seems like we're almost being cattle were heard, they're hurting the general population and after.

1:04:05 Speaker 3: We're we're being led by fear. You know. That's that's why you see terrible headlines in the in the in the news every day. If if you were to go to the UK, you'd get a whole different view of what the United States stands for. Yeah, and it's very different. And to a lot of people, we are the ugly Americans. Yeah, you know, there there's so much of this stuff that and we are, in effect, we are exactly what we've been taught and what we believe, and and a lot of times there's no changing that. We don't want to look up.

1:04:55 Speaker 3: People do not look up at the sky now in the cities, granted you can't see the sky because of all light pollution, but if you ever go out to the desert and see the sky, you know, it's amazing to understand that Navajo's in the past have Navaju names for consolations we cannot see with the naked eye.

1:05:21 Speaker 2: Wow, is that really? Is that true?

1:05:24 Speaker 3: Yeah? And they didn't have telescopes back then, so they have deep knowledge.

1:05:31 Speaker 2: Of this stuff right right.

1:05:34 Speaker 1: And and then I mean you talk about like the Dogon tribe, I said in the intro, the Dogon and the knowledge of the serious Star, serious b which isn't visible, like it's like.

1:05:47 Speaker 2: Who is coming down? Who is?

1:05:50 Speaker 1: Who's giving them this information? Who's and and then you start looking at these creation myths and you start to get the answer. And again it seems deliberate in nature, that deliberate in its nature that we're taught that none of these places ever talked to each other, they never had any interaction, because if they did, if they did, then it changes everything. It changes history, Everything needs to be written rewritten. And they build these same sort of structures every everywhere across the earth, and they seem to build it in hopes or in anticipation of something coming back, the thing that taught it right, like almost like what they would consider their god.

1:06:41 Speaker 1: You know, insert cultural god here, whether it's the sky people, the ant beings, the Anunaki, it's all seems to be something similar. It's a non human intelligence. So have we just does the word become blurred between God and what we call alien.

1:07:06 Speaker 3: That could very well be you know, we we look at anything that probably has a higher technology than we have. Everything they do seems like it's magic, yep, because we don't understand it. But you can draw a parallel and say, what if I went to a ant mount and I pointed to my digital watch here and said, let me explain to you how a digital watch works. There have no comprehension to start with with an ant mount. Maybe that's how the aliens view us, as you know, bacteria covering the earth.

1:07:56 Speaker 1: And yeah, I tend to not think that. I tend to not think that because I think now I'd really like to hear what the navo And you know, so what is consciousness? I I I this question is it's very hard to ask and to answer so in your best words with with given what you know in your background. Uh, consciousness seems to be something that's unique. Uh, and and you know doesn't. Yeah, I think it's special, right, I think all life is special. But I think again, Uh, we are conscious in a different way than say a dog is.

1:08:45 Speaker 1: That's not to say a dog is stupid either, but we you know dolphins, Some say dolphins are smarter than people. Well, they're not building cities as far as we know under under the water. So to get to a degree that we've gotten too. We've got to be special in some sort of way. And so what do you what do you think is consciousness and does it survive? Is it eternal?

1:09:10 Speaker 3: Well, we have we call it spirit exactly, and we and we have an ability to decide what we're going to do. You know that there's there's religions that teach that evil must be destroyed. The naval people and other tribes look at it as that evil exists along with good and it's up to you to have a moral compass and decide which way you're going to lean on that.

1:09:47 Speaker 3: So there is choice and in that choice, you know, one of the things that we found out because we had in doing ghost investigations, uh, there were a lot of questions, are these things just repeating what they did in the past? Can they actually interact with us? And we found evidence to suggest that they can actually interact with us. We also started looking at this idea that the spirit or what we call spirit or consciousness is energy. And interestingly enough, when you die, energy cannot be destroyed, nor can it can change state.

1:10:39 Speaker 3: But it can't be destroyed nor can it be created.

1:10:44 Speaker 2: So it always permits this right and it always.

1:10:50 Speaker 3: So this explains how places can be haunted because when people die, especially violent deaths, those energy leave and they attach to inanimate objects like geologic surfaces. They can attach to inanimate objects, you know, dolls and other things and just be in the vicinity. And so the NAVO they don't talk about things like that, right, yeah, just momentarily they don't talk about stuff like that because to even mention a deceased name is to invite them to come back. You don't go to the graveyard and cry, because that's telling them you want them to come home with you.

1:11:46 Speaker 3: So you know, you may go to the services themselves. You may go to the graveside is considered a taboo, and after that you don't speak their names ever again, because to speak their names is to invite them to come back.

1:12:04 Speaker 1: To invoke them in. Yes, right, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.

1:12:10 Speaker 3: There's a lot of practicality to it. Even with inevitable clans, and there's something like thirty something clans. Each clan had a group of people within the clan to handle the burials. You didn't touch the dead bodies by yourself. You had other people come in kind of like your clan funeral director right, you have specialized people to come in and handle that burial for you, and that's all they did.

1:12:45 Speaker 1: That's a really really so you know almost in a way that ties with something again that I think where you know you've been to Skinwalker Ranch a few times, yes, And you know I've had this theory bouncing around because I grew up in I am in Massachusetts. Obviously, you know King Phillip's War happened here between the natives and early the early settlers, So that happens then you know the Salem witch Trials happened. There's a place called the Bridgewater Triangle. There's obviously Salem where the witch trials took place.

1:13:32 Speaker 1: But witchcraft was I mean people were being accused of it throughout the region and you know where these atrocities occurred. It seems the land itself holds almost like a resonant frequency of like this really impactful event because you know, I've talked about this in the show before. But you know, there was even a study done where they spoke to water and the when they froze it. Anything that you know had a good connotation that they spoke to it because they spoke to it before they froze it, and anything that had a positive connotation the crystals would be very beautiful.

1:14:09 Speaker 1: Anything that had a negative connotation like hatred or war frozen. These really irregular, unnatural ways. So what they what their conclusion was is that your thoughts, your actions, and your intent they affect the matter around you. So in essence, your your your thoughts, and your intent matter literally they literally affect the matter around you. That's why so many people recall, you know, having dreams about the planes hitting the towers on nine to eleven, or premonitions of something like that.

1:14:49 Speaker 2: So there's definitely a connection somewhere.

1:14:54 Speaker 3: We can manifest things just by speaking. And you know, we often tell people that words have power, and that's why they call it spelling. You can create a spell just based on words.

1:15:17 Speaker 2: Holy shit.

1:15:19 Speaker 3: So if you think about it, you can manifest. But if you have ill intentions toward people, you can also manifest bad things for them.

1:15:32 Speaker 2: You just blew my mind.

1:15:35 Speaker 1: I'd never put that together, spelling a spell.

1:15:43 Speaker 2: Holy shit.

1:15:44 Speaker 1: I'm sorry for the abrupt, like what the fuck moment, but what the what?

1:15:50 Speaker 2: What the hell?

1:15:53 Speaker 1: What that is such a and that like witchcraft? Right, I'm sure you you dealt with this on the ranch, I mean on the on the the res.

1:16:03 Speaker 2: You know, there's this this show that I was watching.

1:16:08 Speaker 1: About It's It's Dark Skies and it's it's uh Leopold, Joliopold.

1:16:16 Speaker 2: And Jim Chi.

1:16:17 Speaker 1: Uh you remind me a lot of obviously Jim ch Uh in your ways. That show really got me back into wanting to talk to you. And uh so I will say that that show is kind of what like sent me on the path of trying to find you again because I had always been really fascinated with you.

1:16:35 Speaker 3: But yeah, we actually got uh Stan and the chief Ranger got to sit down with Tony Hillerman in person and meet with him, and the informed him that Jim Chi should have never been a police officer, never a ranger, because police officers. I've seen police officers literally turn the other way and walk away from something because it was an archaeological side or had some taboo with traditional Navil belief skinwalkers. You know, they won't even talk about them except amongst themselves. They'll tell you all kinds of amazing things and encounters, but you know, they generally keep quiet.

1:17:29 Speaker 3: So we've had situations like that, and so if you look at Tony Hillerman's last book that he wrote. In the forward he mentions the Navo Rangers, And you know, so I'm in the process of writing a book right now. And the title, the working title is called Navo Arranger. And underneath a really handsome picture of a ranger probably won't be somebody wearing us the bear hat, uh with his eyes shaded in a desert background. And underneath it'll say the true story of the real Jim Chee.

1:18:12 Speaker 2: That's a really yeah, that's really good. So you have.

1:18:18 Speaker 1: You you And because in that show, and I wanted to ask this because in that show, it's there.

1:18:26 Speaker 2: They like they just touch that line.

1:18:33 Speaker 1: They and they don't go over it, like the in both seasons. It seems like it got a little bit more in in in each season. But like that paranormal aspect, they they definitely imply with witchcraft a lot, but they don't overtly incorporate it in in in the overall story aside from like you just kind of knowing, like they like they gave you that wink like pay you know, pay attention to what's going on.

1:19:07 Speaker 2: So you know, that's what really like I really enjoyed.

1:19:13 Speaker 1: About the story, but I think they need to take a side because I mean either include because there was like a great opportunity.

1:19:19 Speaker 2: So did you ever come across like literal witchcraft?

1:19:24 Speaker 3: Oh yes, yes, Na, witchcraft is what we call it. So what I'm not I'm not referring to wickens, you know, which, which is a whole different subject. So don't don't get me wrong. We say witchcraft, but we're referring to naviho witchcraft. Or in the naval tradition, first man and first woman were taught by the Holy people how to shape change and uh. This allowed them to get close to h deer and other animals to take them for sustenance. Later on they used it in times of war to go spy on the enemy. Now somewhere later it became a source of negative we call it negative energy, where somebody just devotes themselves completely to this and people die and poisons are made.

1:20:36 Speaker 3: They're able to shape shift into other things, other animals, and is still prevalent to this day. In podcasts, we tell people do not go looking for them because if you do, you may find them and it's not going to be the outcome. Yeah.

1:21:00 Speaker 2: So skinkers are all skin walkers witches.

1:21:08 Speaker 3: Uh yeah, in the the idea of naval witchcraft, there's several different types. There is a somebody that just learns how to shape shift and that's all they do, okay, and you know, so they go out they terrorize whole communities. That that's a source of power. Uh. You have a type that are medicinal. They know everything about plants and how to make poisons and how to make healing things. There are others that do what we call frenzy witchcraft, which is much more involved. This involves curses on people.

1:21:55 Speaker 3: This involves digging up dead bodies and stealing the jewelry and so in the jewelry and border towns away from the reservation. And you know which is very very taboo.

1:22:09 Speaker 1: You know, right you said even going to the graves and right so if if and if you then you go start digging up the grave, I mean you you've got to be working. And and anyone like people get I get upset with people because if you don't think evil exists, like real pure evil evil, you can feel that when you walk in a place or you see you know this certain person, that the room changes literally or that evil you can feel if you don't think that's real, then you are living a lie. You're you're or you're you're happily naive about it.

1:22:58 Speaker 1: How many times, working, you know, with the rangers, did you go into a place and feel, this is not this is not a good place.

1:23:09 Speaker 2: I should not be here.

1:23:12 Speaker 3: There were many times that happened, and you know, we call it our sixth sense. When you're in law enforcement, you start to rely on it a lot. And what we found, I mean, I'm going down the hallway. This kid had shot a lot of you know, shot at a lot of people, trying to kill them, and we were after him, and he took off from the house and took off into the back country. So they had a big man hunt going. And I mentioned a couple of the other officers. I says, we need to check the house again. I just felt that he might have gone back to the house.

1:23:54 Speaker 3: So we're searching the house again and I'm going down the hallway to the bedroom. And as I got halfway down that hallway, something told me don't go there, and I started backing up and I got back to the end of the hallway and I mentioned, you know, when you're doing swat work, you do a lot of hand signals. Everything silent, and I told the other officers, I said, come up here, I says, I can't see. I've got something further up the hall. We got in there and we called to him by his name and told him, we know you're in there, come out and leave the gun behind it.

1:24:40 Speaker 3: You know, after a couple of minutes, that guy came out of the back room and he had been armed with a pistol,

1:24:51 Speaker 3: and we took him into custody. But if I had gone just beep popping down that hall and gone in there, I would have explore myself and what we call the fatal funnel, which is where the doorway is. If you want to ambush somebody, that's the place to do it, right, And so you know, I didn't want to get shot, even if I did have a vest. So, but things like that happen all the time, and you start to rely on that ability that you get just to just to survive.

1:25:29 Speaker 2: Sometimes, right, Right, So what do you take of you know, are you are? You did grow up?

1:25:40 Speaker 1: So you said you spent time off the res during the year, and then you spent summers on the res, right, So are you are you a religious man John.

1:25:55 Speaker 3: Actually I am. I grew up in a church. It was an independent church, but it was a native church in Los Angeles, and this church is more closely aligned with Southern Baptist Doctor. So after that, from nineteen seventy six to seventy eight, I went to a Bible school where I studied theology. I studied the Latin Vulgate, I studied the greep subject to it. So I did a lot of study in that area. All the people I went to school with became preachers, and I went into law enforcement instead. So I do have a background.

1:26:48 Speaker 3: And it's always fun because I hear people say in the comments sometimes you need Jesus Christ you're going to have

1:26:59 Speaker 3: And you know, I could argue doctor, and I could go into apologetics, and you know, and and the reason that I still I'm born again Christian is because I cannot refute two things. And if you wanted to destroy Christianity, all you have to do is refute two things. Number one, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Number two, the conversion of Saul of Tarsus to the apostle Paul on the road Damascus. If you can refute either one of those, you will have destroyed Christianity mhm, and nobody can refute it.

1:27:47 Speaker 3: They've had people like doctor Simon Greenley, who puts Harvard Law School on the map, take his own money and do his own research and came back and said evidence such as the resurrection of Christ cannot be disputed in any court of law. And he ended up becoming a Christian because of his work. So I look at that kind of stuff and that's you know there, there's there's nothing there now. Doctrine wise, you can get into a lot of different arguments right now. Every every group has you know, every group has a different doctor.

1:28:33 Speaker 1: Does it conflict does does does your do your religious beliefs? Do they conflict with Navajo tradition or anything like that.

1:28:48 Speaker 3: I am very respectful a naval tradition because I've had to work within those confines for so long. Ah, I do not put it down. There's a lot of it that's practical. I will use smudging and smoke myself. I will carry arrowheads for protection. I have turquoise on my bracelet on my ring for that purpose. Turquoise protects traditionally in navoculture. So there are a lot of things Smudging, if you notice that even the Catholic Church does a form of that. They have an altar boy walking down the middle of the aisle carrying an urn on chains and he swings it back and forth with the smoke.

1:29:46 Speaker 3: So smudging has been used all through history, through different cultures, and now they're finding out that sweet grass, sage, and cedar have a medicinal property there anti microbial. I just like the smell. But but I pray and and I use an eagle feather to just smudge with. And when I'm done, I say, in the name of Jesus Christ.

1:30:18 Speaker 1: So you're you're it's it's like your you.

1:30:23 Speaker 2: You're bringing it together and you're Yeah. I like that. I do.

1:30:28 Speaker 1: I like that because I think again, I think there's what people what people often will do is say it's either you have to be one or the other. I don't think that that that's the case. And I don't think that if you know, I've had my own UFO like that's in bolt UFO sighting, right. But then when I was in the room when my mother died, I had what you definitely call or label something more of a paranormal supernatural experience, and uh, you know, I'm grateful to have had both of those because you know, again it tells me that, uh again, the world.

1:31:14 Speaker 2: Isn't black and white, right, and I was.

1:31:16 Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to grow up in that kind of environment where you know, I wasn't shaped into some something or someone that was unable and unwilling some some people are just unwilling to allow for the idea of anything other than the paradigm they live in. So the thought of of angels or demons or aliens, all of that is quote unquote nonsense, when in fact it's it's it's quite the opposite. It's not nonsense. It's talked about by every culture. It's talked about. I mean, it's there's so much, there's so much, so much I could get into, But.

1:32:08 Speaker 3: Is it.

1:32:09 Speaker 2: Do you think.

1:32:13 Speaker 1: These beings that have have come here that they are are responsible for us being here, like like in a way that they played a direct role in our creation to some degree.

1:32:34 Speaker 3: If you really think about it. They came here to provide knowledge, moral knowledge, knowledge of how to live, h knowledge of what not to do. There's just so much and that stuff you can't gain it just by yourself, you know, you just can't look up in the sky and say, I suddenly know everything it has to be built on. And so I think that there was a long, long period of time where this knowledge was possessed and it wasn't just one one meeting, It was a whole series of stuff. And you know, I'm thinking about what you were talking about earlier.

1:33:27 Speaker 3: One of the reasons I think that governments do not want to talk about, you know, entities is that in some ways we rely on flags and countries and we go to war with other countries because we had political aspirations, and war is politics carried out by other means. So, you know, we have this situation in the world today where we have enemies that are traditional enemies, and if we if there was suddenly some other race of people coming from outside of our world, all these countries would disappear.

1:34:24 Speaker 3: We would all be united.

1:34:26 Speaker 2: As a white.

1:34:32 Speaker 3: You know. So it's it's a way of control to say that there are no other enterities out there other than us. Where where it? You know?

1:34:44 Speaker 2: And yeah, top of the food team we are.

1:34:48 Speaker 3: I think that is a doctor and aside, right.

1:34:52 Speaker 1: Right, right right, and you know, one of the and that's one of the things I was getting at was the fact that like so I don't understand why governments or whoever began, whoever is in indeed in like responsible whatever entity, whether that was the Vatican and the Church from the beginning, you know, which I do think there there's a strong possibility that the Church had something to do with with it.

1:35:28 Speaker 3: And you know, putting the not only the Catholic Church, you had the Church of England, you had uh, you know, and and a lot of people with with all all the political stuff going on now they say, oh, we're a Christian nation. You know, we're an evangelical Christian nation. But if you really look at the history, our founding fathers were what they called Deus agust Is, somebody who believes that God set everything in motion and then stepped back and said, it's all up to you, guys.

1:36:07 Speaker 2: Now let it be right, right, right, let it be.

1:36:11 Speaker 3: And that's our nation was founded by a group of diasts and it had nothing to do with evangelical Christianity. That came much later. So, and I always laugh about there's there's this long joke that was done by a comedian where he sees the guy ready to jump off the bridge and he starts trying to have a conversation, and he says, well, you know, I'm Christian, how about you? And the guy says, I'm Christian too, you know, oh what time Catholic Protestant? You know. And they keep going down the line until they find out that they're both Baptists and what convention of Baptists and what you know, just all the way down to the needing gritty and at the end he asks them, you know or you know what, what group are you with?

1:37:07 Speaker 3: And he tells him and he pushes them off the bridge and says, die heretic. Oh, And that's kind of what our country is, you know. We we look at it and we say, well, you got to believe like I believe, right, that's not true.

1:37:26 Speaker 1: That yeah, that's that's been it's becoming a very big problem in the country, is that we are no longer able to have discussion with contention now because if you believe, if you have a differing belief than I do, then you are no longer my equal, You're my opponent, right, And that I grew up at least I remember growing up in a world where discourse was part of life, where you know, you might have been a domestic democrat or Republican or navo or uh, you know anything. You could be You have any affiliation, but you could have a discussion and walk and you might not agree in that discussion.

1:38:13 Speaker 1: You might not even agree walking away, but you walk away after a handshake.

1:38:18 Speaker 2: That's no longer the case.

1:38:20 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, unfortunately, you know. But it's it's like a pendulum. The pendulum is swinging one way and it'll eventually start swinging back the other way. Equal one opposite is physics.

1:38:34 Speaker 1: Teaches, absolutely so. And getting back to some some of the some of the more weird stuff as we round out, is there was there a case that sticks out to you as one that maybe changed the course of your life or had an packed.

1:39:00 Speaker 2: On you more so than any other.

1:39:05 Speaker 1: Well maybe even an experience after the fact after you were out, like was there any is there any moment like that for you?

1:39:17 Speaker 3: Yeah? There, I get asked that a lot. And the story that I relate is how I was leaving early in the morning before Suna. I travel north and I'm going forty seven miles to Kaykotsmithy, which is called New Arribi on Hopie Reservation, and then I go west to Tuba city another sixty eight miles, and I have a routine where I go to the local drug through restaurant and I get a cup of coffee in my breakfast sandwich, and I had just enough time to go across the street and park and wait for gate to open up.

1:40:02 Speaker 3: On the way, the sun is just it's pre dawned, so the sun is showing on the horizon sunlight, but not the sun yet. And I looked in front of me, and I got straight road for miles and miles. I look in the rearview mirror, miles and miles behind me, a straight road. And I blinked, and when I opened my eyes, I was fifteen more miles down the road coming to a sharp left turn. Now you have to understand that that road goes up and down, it goes around curved, it goes along cliffs and back. Then there are no guardrails.

1:40:44 Speaker 3: And I don't know how I made that fifteen miles. And at first I thought, did I just zone out completely? And I'm just on autopilot. I got to the city and I went through the drive there, got my sandwich, got my coffee. I'm sitting at the gate. I was forty five minutes early, instead of waiting there just for a few minutes and having them opened the gate at eight. So I cannot and there's no time change at that time, I cannot say what happened. I had people say, oh, the UFO snatched you, and they put me back in the wrong time.

1:41:33 Speaker 3: I've had another person, very scientifically minded, that said I hit the event horizon of a microscopic black hole and it changed time for me.

1:41:47 Speaker 3: Still still skeptical. I went to the Snippy conference and a gentleman approached me after I told that story at the end, and he says, I know what happened to you, And he proceeded to tell me that I basically teleported, and so far that's the only explanation that I found. And in looking at this idea of teleportation, I found out that you can have variations in time. And now I tell people that it's just like doctor who, time is this you know, wibbly wobbly timey whinmy stuff that we don't understand.

1:42:32 Speaker 2: It's not it's not linear.

1:42:35 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not linear. And that really brought me to the cusp of understanding that there's much much more out here than we realize and if we just opened up our eyes and let our curiosity lead us, you might get some answers.

1:42:56 Speaker 2: There's no telling what are United Humanity couldn't do. I'd be hard pressed.

1:43:04 Speaker 3: You know.

1:43:05 Speaker 1: It reminds me of the story of the Tower of Babbel, Right, United Humanity, you know, it gets too close to the gods, and it needs to be you know, struck down a peg and separated and divided by language, divided by culture. But I think one of the biggest messages that I've tried to send throughout conversations with you know, experiencers, members of Congress, scientists, academics, is that if we all stepped back and put our let our biases be right, leave that check that at the door for a moment, and step away and look around.

1:43:56 Speaker 1: Because I think we all have a piece of the story, and we're just like you said, we need to open our aperture up a little bit so that we can get the full picture.

1:44:09 Speaker 3: Yeah. I truly believe that what I found in my journey is that I had to look inside myself bingo, and I had to decide, you know, how I was going to live from here on out, And you know, and you look at everything how you think just every aspect of your life and how you relate.

1:44:45 Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely.

1:44:49 Speaker 1: There was one question that I had, Oh man, now I just completely blanked on it because I went another way in my head.

1:44:58 Speaker 2: If oh, that's right?

1:45:00 Speaker 1: Have you you know, I think most people will know the story of the skin Walker, right and how it how it came to be the curse of the skin Walker, at least in that Utah area.

1:45:14 Speaker 2: Is that the the the thing that you know.

1:45:19 Speaker 1: Struck why Skinwalker ranches the way it is and in terms of its location because of the curse that was put on it, you know, through contention between tribes, you know, and and one puts a curse on the other.

1:45:37 Speaker 2: But so is that.

1:45:42 Speaker 1: It kind of seems like an oversimplification of it. But have you first off, what is a skinwalker? Like I said, We've talked about it already a little bit, but what is that the right definition of a skin walker? And have you ever come actually face to face with one of these things?

1:46:03 Speaker 2: Ever?

1:46:06 Speaker 3: I've come to face to face with them many times, and I've investigated them. I've found out in at least eight cases who they were, their identities, and in one case I put word out in the community that if you continue terrorizing people, I'm going to din you out to the community and let them know who you are. In the natural tradition, if you find out the identity of the skin walker and somebody goes up to them and say I know who and what you are, that person will be dead within three days. And I've seen that happen before.

1:46:49 Speaker 3: The person that knows the person you know the person who is the skin walker, because just yeah, unlike what you see on TV, they are not avatars. They are not these spirit things that run around. There are people just like you and me, flesh and blood, and they learn this stuff and they get together and teach each other all these secrets. My grandfather was a medicine man early on in his life, and my grand grant one of my grandmother's brothers, and he became a Christian in his young life, probably about twenty five twenty six.

1:47:37 Speaker 3: He was taught as a child to be a medicine man. And he told me that when you're taught to be a medicine man, you're taught the good things and the bad things. So he says, you're taught everything because you have to know how the curses are constructed in order to uh do something.

1:48:01 Speaker 1: With them counter it, and so you have to understand the curse to be able to you know, reverse engineer it.

1:48:12 Speaker 3: Right. So with that said, you know, he just told me be very careful, be strong in your faith because that's what's going to protect you. And so, like I said, I pray, I smudge myself, I take all the precautions. I've been just going to walk a ranch about four or five times now, and I've never had anything negative happen to me. The last time I went up there, I felt like I was literally in a clear bubble of some kind and that nothing was going to come and bother me. So interesting, But getting getting back to the question, my arsenal research has found that there's a romantic story that goes around that's repeated off.

1:49:08 Speaker 3: It says that when the Navajos were being rounded up by the cavalry in eighteen sixty four, they were force marched to Bosco Redondo, New Mexico, and a lot of them died. It was kind of like the Batan death March. And

1:49:28 Speaker 3: by the time they got there, there were march different directions. Some of them went through Santa Fe and were marched down the city streets put on display. Some of them were just marched through the desert, and at the end of that thing they were interred for four years. Supposedly, the government said that Navajos are raiding and causing a lot of depredation and stolen livestock and all this other stuff.

1:49:57 Speaker 3: The real story behind it, I believe, is that in eighteen sixty three gold was discovered in Prescott, Arizona. A military assayer was on its way back to Washington and reported that the Navo nation has land up there that could contain gold. Oh no, and so the government had to find a way, just like the Black Hills, to get rid of the natives, and so they sent a punitive military operation to do that. Now, the Utes actually come into this because they provided scouts for the military. Now in those days, in the eighteen sixties, that was an honorable job to be a scout for the military.

1:50:47 Speaker 3: So the youths rounded up the Navajos with the military and hunted them down. But you have to understand that the Utes and the Navajos were traditional enemies, and so the Navajos supposedly took this as an affront that the Uths were giving them payback, and after the Navajos got done at Mosco Redondo in eighteen sixty eight, signed the treaty and were allowed to come back. The story is that they put a curse on the Ute land and said you're going to have skinwalkers from now on. Now, with that story being out there, what I found out because remember I've had a career in archaeological law enforcement, so I had to learn about archaeology.

1:51:41 Speaker 3: And you had the Fremont people up in that area along with the Utes, and when I went up there, I found sites near the ranch that were set up as religious locations, and it occurred to me that all these sites circle that ranch area. However, what I found out is that the Fremont had been there and the Youthes had been there, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years, and they were already practicing protection for their tribe by having these ceremonies at these locations to hold back whatever evil that they were experiencing.

1:52:36 Speaker 3: So I'm going, okay, it doesn't match up with the dates the you know the and then later on, if you really look at Navu history, you find out that after they got back in eighteen sixty eight, for nine years, there was a round up a suspected of skin walkers all over the reservation that were put together kind of like Salem witch trials.

1:53:07 Speaker 2: I was just gonna, oh, my god, you read my mind a little bit.

1:53:10 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, sounds exactly like the witch trial.

1:53:14 Speaker 3: So, you know, did they have that big of a problem with Navajo witches? I don't think so. What I read between the lines and looking at the history is that there was a faction of Navajos that wanted to go to war with the United States after the treaty was signed, because they said that the treaty was not in the best interests of the Navajos and they should never have signed it. So there was a political faction that was active after they came back and Manulito, Gnado, Mucco, all these chiefs signed onto that treaty basically hunted them down, said you're a witch, and killed them.

1:54:06 Speaker 3: They said over nine years around forty, which is around up and killed.

1:54:13 Speaker 2: But there was an ulterior motive.

1:54:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm looking at the politics and thinking, how how else what better way to get rid of your political rivals, right than to stamp it out and execute them.

1:54:29 Speaker 2: So that's what.

1:54:32 Speaker 1: And that's what I mean, because that's the it's very similar what happened in Salem.

1:54:36 Speaker 2: It was.

1:54:38 Speaker 1: Oftentimes it was either land grabs or political opponents or.

1:54:44 Speaker 2: You know, a woman that.

1:54:48 Speaker 1: You know there were there was ulterior motives of the people accusing the accused, And like, does the does the land itself hold some sort of memory? Because we talk about time being not linear? Could that be what ghosts are?

1:55:05 Speaker 2: Is it? Is it replaying.

1:55:08 Speaker 1: You know, some some event that had a a really you know, tragic or terrible atrocity on it, And could the land hold some sort of like a memory of that and that that's where the poltergeist activity.

1:55:24 Speaker 2: Comes from and stuff like that.

1:55:26 Speaker 1: I think, you know, that could be one way to look at it, obviously, But someone asked a great question.

1:55:32 Speaker 2: Someone asked a great question.

1:55:34 Speaker 1: Now in like in the Catholic Church, with demons, there is such thing as.

1:55:44 Speaker 2: You know, how did essentially.

1:55:48 Speaker 1: Out the demon right to to do exercise exercise the demon from the individual. Now, a skin walker is a little bit different, right, because it's not something that's inhabiting it or is it? And can they be exercised quote unquote.

1:56:10 Speaker 3: With skin walkers, you have to have a traditional practitioner, new ceremony, and that ceremony will protect the people. I've had it done for myself, you know, protect individuals that will protect places and there are you know, rules and things to abide by doing this. This is just for Navo. Every tribe in the United States has some type of shape shifter. So when we talk about shape shifters, you have them all over the United States. You have them in New Zealand and Australia, in Africa and Europe, so it's in an Asian countries.

1:56:57 Speaker 3: So it's nothing new there out there.

1:57:03 Speaker 1: So they can a skin walker be redeemed?

1:57:09 Speaker 2: Can they? Can they repent?

1:57:12 Speaker 3: Redemption? Redemption is there for everybody. Uh, it's up to the skinwalker to decide. I actually interviewed a skin walker. Was a young kid that wanted to talk to me, and he told me a story that he was taught with two of his buddies how to do this stuff and they would shape change and go run out into the community. That's another holy person there. Yes, not a skin walker.

1:57:41 Speaker 1: Not a skin walker. There's no real pictures apparently no.

1:57:47 Speaker 3: But they were taught to do this so they would go out and have fun because that's all they knew how to do. And at one point, this kid's walking through a border town and he walks by a church and here's the church music going and everybody's singing. So he says, oh, I'm going to go in and check it out. And he slid into what every church member calls the backslider row, you know, right at the end of the church, right next to the exit. And he sat there and watched, and he's wearing a backpack and he says he keeps his skin in their kyote skin.

1:58:25 Speaker 3: And as he watches this thing, he suddenly decides, I want to become a Christian. And so he went up when they when they did the uh you know, they asked everybody to come up, and he accepted Jesus. So he goes back home and that night his buddy's come over and says, come on, let's go change. Let's let's let's go have some fun. And he says, they all started to chant and they all started to sing, and they were going through your system of affecting the shape change, and he says that his buddy's changed.

1:59:08 Speaker 3: He says, you leave the door open so you can run out right, And he even told me that when that happens, you know, when you change, everything gets blurry, there's a red shift in the color spectrum, and you're thinking becomes more animalistic.

1:59:27 Speaker 2: Animally, I was gonna say animalistic.

1:59:31 Speaker 3: Yeah, he says, you don't think like a human anymore. And uh, he says that his buddy's changed shape and ran out the door, and he says he tried and tried, and he couldn't change shape. Then he sits there and he says, I guess that's what it means when you become a Christian, that you can't do those old things anymore. Right, So, uh, you know, then I spoke to a guy that had a really, really seriously bad background and and uh, he ended up becoming a Christian. I don't know if he's still alive today, but he was saying that some of the stuff that he did were if there was no redemption for him at all.

2:00:19 Speaker 1: Right, I can probably imagine some of the things that he might have been involved in.

2:00:24 Speaker 2: But yeah, so there.

2:00:27 Speaker 3: Are Yeah, It's it's again, it's up to the individuals.

2:00:35 Speaker 2: Right.

2:00:35 Speaker 1: It's almost like you have to if you are if you aren't a narcissist, right, if you aren't a you know, psychopath.

2:00:43 Speaker 2: Uh.

2:00:44 Speaker 1: And and you do feel some sort of remorse and and you allow forgiveness for yourself, then salvation.

2:00:55 Speaker 2: Is can be for you. Right, But you have to be willing.

2:00:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be willing to to pretty much give yourself up in in many facets. You know, it's physical, spiritual, and mental.

2:01:11 Speaker 3: It's just it's just like an alcoholic. Your your family can't put you in a treatment center and expect you to not be an alcoholic when you get out.

2:01:21 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, right, absolutely I can. Yeah, I can, Uh, I can, I can relate to Yes, I can relate.

2:01:33 Speaker 2: To that, I should say.

2:01:35 Speaker 1: And and you know what's funny is and this is something we're kind of now a little bit over time. And I don't mean to keep you too long they call you know, Uh, I'm pretty open about it, you know. Uh, Because again I think my path was was kind of meant for me. It was meant to bring me to this seat right now.

2:02:02 Speaker 2: Talking to you. Right.

2:02:05 Speaker 1: Everything had to have happened the exact way it did for me to get here to talk to you. So I try not to be I try not to live too much in in in in fear of my past or like, you know, I'm not beholden to it anymore.

2:02:27 Speaker 2: For a long time.

2:02:28 Speaker 1: For a long time, I was, you know it, you don't exactly, And so where I was going with this is, you know, I am pretty open about it. Uh, but they call they called I learned this in the treatment facility, actually, and I've been so I haven't had a drink in almost I'm going on six years. And my mom, you know, she was always a really big supporter of mine. Hollywood obviously didn't help, you know, the lifestyle I was living just didn't. I was putting myself in these scenarios. But they call liquor, they call it, and I'd never really I'd never really thought about it until it was kind of like today when you put when you said the spelling thing.

2:03:17 Speaker 1: But when you go to a liquor store, there's a reason it's called wine and spirits, right, because in this liquor bottle is a spirit, and you become a different person. You are essentially possessed.

2:03:32 Speaker 2: When when you're drinking.

2:03:34 Speaker 1: Like my father, you know, when he drank and he took substances, he became a different and a violent person.

2:03:47 Speaker 1: When I drank, I became a very isolationist i'd be, you know, and I had swore to myself that I would never become my father, And there I was exactly like him, you know, trait wise, not not you know, I wasn't violent like him. But I have my own way of being. And there, like I said, there is a reason they called a spirit. And I think alcohol. I think alcohol is one of the the most, if not the most dangerous drug on the on the face of the planet.

2:04:16 Speaker 3: Sure, because it's legal.

2:04:19 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, and it's so readily available, right, and it's so socially acceptable, it's built in to our norms. Like you know, as a sober person, I'm always conscious of being invited to a wedding with an open bar, right, Like, those are things I start thinking about. I'm like, you know, it's the situations that were put in. And then you're watching the Super Bowl half the commercials for fucking bud light, right, or or some tequila or liquor imagine if they imagine if on your TV pop an ad for Heroin, right, some guy fix it up, fix it up?

2:04:58 Speaker 1: And uh, you know Byfizer Heroine? Uh what if that that?

2:05:04 Speaker 2: Like, what are we doing?

2:05:07 Speaker 1: And you know, I guess that's why I've always kind of related to certain Native people, and I I do.

2:05:15 Speaker 2: I have a couple friends.

2:05:17 Speaker 1: That are native, uh To their their families are Native, and I always really like I would I loved listening to their parents, particularly, I liked I liked the wisdom, the the way that they shaped the world and this, you know, how they talked about things. It just fascinated me.

2:05:41 Speaker 1: What is if there's one message that you can tell people through all of the work, all of the stuff that you've done, everything, If there's one message you could give to people, what would it be?

2:05:59 Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good one. I will tell you that we live in a much stranger world than anybody thinks, and it's there, it's all around us, and we can close our eyes and put the blinders on and go through our lives, or we can accept it that you know, we may not believe in them, but they believe in us.

2:06:29 Speaker 2: And that yep, exactly exactly.

2:06:34 Speaker 1: So you know, uh, of course I won't have so many I've there's I could talk to you for literally days, you know, I think you're such a unique individual and the things that you've been through, you know, how do you how do you, how do you balance it? How do you balance your cultural heritage and uh, spiritual beliefs and investigative mind and dealing with with with the unknown?

2:07:04 Speaker 3: You know, I don't try to force that on anybody. The whole reason that we got involved in speaking about this stuff is just to let everybody know this is what we've experienced. You know, you may not believe in everything that that I believe, but you know, like I said before, you know, you didn't see what I saw or you didn't see what I investigated. So that being said, there there's there's a lot of stuff out there. We just need to open our eyes to be able to see it.

2:07:42 Speaker 1: Right absolutely, Where can where can people? You know, I know you said you're right, So it sounds like you're writing a book.

2:07:51 Speaker 2: I know you're so. You you had a partner, stan Stanley, right, Stanley Milford here he is pictured.

2:07:59 Speaker 1: He wrote The Paranormal Ranger. You're writing a book, Paranormal Ranger, And uh, you know, where else can people find you? And when?

2:08:11 Speaker 3: When?

2:08:11 Speaker 2: When do you think that book will make its way on the shelves.

2:08:16 Speaker 3: I'm about a third through it. I've got twelve thousand words written so far. But there's but there's forty seven chapters, so it might be a true parter. Yeah, and it doesn't just talk about the paranormal. It talks about everything that I did. I mean, I was an em G, going to traffic accidents, you know, technical rescue of people that were stuck on ropes and things, just all kinds of stuff. And you know, I don't miss the work. I missed the people that I used to work with, right, And and then after that I actually had a whole different career and got involved in medical manufacturing and we were making peripheral artery stents and aeror extents, and then I got into maintenance and calibration and metrology and too and repair so highly you know, skill trade stuff.

2:09:24 Speaker 1: And I was gonna say, you have such a wide range of skill set.

2:09:31 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then finally decided, Okay, that's enough. I'm going to grab my Soli security and get out of here.

2:09:39 Speaker 1: I love that, and now write in this book. You also have a podcast that you do fantastic by the.

2:09:47 Speaker 3: Way, Yeah, that will be The Paranormal Rangers. You can find it on.

2:09:53 Speaker 2: YouTube, absolutely absolutely, but that's.

2:09:57 Speaker 3: That's your kg R A digit broadcasting, right.

2:10:02 Speaker 1: So it streams on that as well as on podcast platforms for anyone. And I'll include I'll include all the links for the that stuff in the description below in the post. So John, I I I, like I said, I could go on for hours and hours and hours, like I said to Part two, yeah, and a part three and four. I want to come out there. Now, what is do you live on the reservation right now?

2:10:30 Speaker 3: Yes? I do?

2:10:32 Speaker 1: Okay, Now you said it was like coming to this is like, uh, this is the post credit stinger if you will, uh, because the formal interview part is over.

2:10:42 Speaker 2: But what is the what do you have to get permission to come on to the land, Like what's that like?

2:10:51 Speaker 3: No, you don't need to have permission, you don't need a passport, but you are considered a guest and so you know, once you come out there, we hook up, we'll give you the Nickel tour, take you around a little bit of navol Nation is twenty seven thousand square miles, covering literally four states up in the Four Corners area. It's about the size of the state of West Virginia, so a lot of land to cover. Well, we'd only see a little portion of it.

2:11:32 Speaker 1: And and that's where these like these pictograph stuff, that's that's where that is so.

2:11:39 Speaker 2: And again we didn't even get into that.

2:11:42 Speaker 1: But you know, people don't carve things in the way that and those aren't even parts of those aren't even carvings.

2:11:48 Speaker 2: Those are something else.

2:11:51 Speaker 1: So you know, people don't I would assume that the Native, like the original Native, they wouldn't be you know, doing something like that if they did not want us to know or the like. That's how they wanted to communicate what they were seeing. And again, just on a brief couple pictures, I mean these you see these beings and you know, I just grabbed these really quick before we started, but I mean you can tell that like there's a goat there or a sheep there right, or a ram like it's very defined the animal and then the human and then there's something else there.

2:12:37 Speaker 1: And again, if you got you start asking your questions in your head, like they clearly know how to accually, accurately represent something. So why in that same reference would they draw this alien looking being right a wacky if it didn't actually exist the way that's how they saw it. So that that's fascinating.

2:13:01 Speaker 2: How many about how many? How many pictographs. Have you guys found or know about.

2:13:07 Speaker 3: I've personally been to probably a thousand of them.

2:13:10 Speaker 2: And that's all on Navajo nationland.

2:13:14 Speaker 3: Yeah, and many that were off off the reservation. I mean there. I think they estimated that there are three hundred thousand known archaeological sites on Naval reservation. There may be another two point five million that we don't know about.

2:13:35 Speaker 1: Oh my god, wow, wow.

2:13:40 Speaker 3: It's it's actually illegal to go to an archaeological site on the reservation. There's only three people that are allowed. Number one an archaeologists, number two a medicine man, and number three a navagal ranger.

2:14:03 Speaker 2: How fitting? How you? How fitting you? You? You almost.

2:14:11 Speaker 1: You know, you're that's really interesting. So there's clearly a reason for that, and a very I that makes a lot of sense, And there's there seems to be like a real hierarchy there just to the to the locations to the information. Now, one last thing before I let you go, because it just popped into my head. Now, obviously people die when there's a transferm transfer. Transfer of information is someone picked early on and then you know, kind of groomed to be able to take over the information payload, and you know that that's the cycle continuing or they don't.

2:14:59 Speaker 1: Just it's not like and you become president, right, like you just get it all right?

2:15:03 Speaker 2: There couldn't.

2:15:05 Speaker 3: Well, I think what we're talking about here is medicine men. And for medicine men there in the old days, they were kind of like a general practitioner. You were taught everything from a very early age into adulthood. Okay, nowadays you have a different situation and you have what I would call an I knows and throat specialists. You have medicine men. Now they are only practiced and just a few of the things. So it's very different. Yeah, because they haven't done this their whole lives. They can't learn everything and then so it's very different nowadays.

2:15:49 Speaker 3: Right, but it still exists.

2:15:53 Speaker 2: Right, But the the but the sacreds, like the sacred.

2:15:57 Speaker 1: Information, the the or history. I mean that's going to be someone's got to get that and then hold it. Someone's gonna Yeah, so is there someone is that like the chief of the Navajo is there, president of the Novo.

2:16:13 Speaker 3: It's handed down to everybody. It's just up to us if you want to listen. So, but the rule is that we had an oral tradition, which means that everything that is told you has to be repeated exactly. You cannot change it. Your fish can't get bigger and bigger every story. It has to be told exactly the same way every single time.

2:16:44 Speaker 1: So yeah, because that's what a lot of people pull to, is like, Okay, maybe these stories, like at the game of Telephone, they've changed, you know, through through various interpretations and wanting to you know, the human thing is to want to make a story more into sting, so you know, putting their own little details in there. So you're saying that that's there is that rule of like no alterations.

2:17:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, for a medicine man, I'm doing a single ceremony over three nights, calls an enemy waite ceremony. They would have to sing over two hundred and forty songs over three nights and you cannot make a mistake. Otherwise that whole ceremony is negated. And people are paying big, big money for these ceremonies. I mean, whole families pitch in. So if you better believe that they're watching waiting for the medicine man to make a mistakes so they can say I'm not paying you.

2:17:49 Speaker 2: If you missed it up, fudge, you fudged up. Wow. So there's there. So okay, all right that see this stuff.

2:17:58 Speaker 1: I could literally I could like question just after question after question after question. But John, you are so such a really really interesting guy, and there's so much more that we just didn't even get to touch on. And that's just in two hours, right, So uh, definitely have to do a part two. And I'd really love to talk about coming out there as soon as possible.

2:18:22 Speaker 2: And and.

2:18:24 Speaker 1: I really really respect what you do and uh from the total disclosure audience and uh, you know program, you have an open door uh here. So with that being said, everyone make sure to like, share, and subscribe as well as check out the Paranormal Rangers podcast on kg are a digital uh and on any podcast platform that you can find.

2:18:50 Speaker 2: All the links for that will be in the description.

2:18:52 Speaker 1: Blow, we thank you and we'll see you on the.

2:18:56 Speaker 2: Other And.

2:19:00 Speaker 3: The entertaining everything that the coating, that interpreting that Patna