The Most Shocking Alien Encounter Story! "Intruders" With Deb Kauble!

0:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Total Disclosure. My name is Ty and I am the host. Today's guest is someone whose story has captivated the world and continues to shed light on the extraordinary. Deborah Jordan Cobble, also known as the real life Kathy Davis from Bud Hopkins groundbreaking book Intruders The Incredible Visitations at Coppley Woods. She is here with us. If that title rings a bell, you might also remember the CBS mini series based on her experiences pretty loosely, and trust me, her story is just as fascinating today as it was then.

0:50 Speaker 1: Debor didn't stop there. She's an author, investigator, and advocate for those navigating their own extraordinary encounters. Her latest Extraordinary Contact Life Beyond Intruders, dives even deeper into our journey and is a must read for anyone curious about the unexplained. Not only that, but she's also appeared on the National Geographics UFOs Investigating the Unknown. So yes, you can catch her on Disney Plus and Hulu right now. Beyond her personal experiences, Debra's been out on the front lines of paranormal research as a former move On investigator, co founder of Paranormal Underground, and cohost of Midwest Paratoc Radio and Voices of Contact.

1:37 Speaker 1: Whether she's speaking at a conference around the world or offering support to others through Saroh the Midwest Experience or Community, Deborah's mission is clear to break down the stigma and to push for truth and transparency in the UFO phenomenon. So buckle up. This conversation is going to take you places you never imagined. Let's give a warm welcome too our guest Nebra Jordan Gobble,

2:12 Speaker 1: super happy to have you on the show today. I became interested in UFOs around the age of eight or nine, when I have my own sighting, and from there I just immersed myself in the world. And your story was one of the first that I came across, aside from like Whitley Streeber's communion. But I knew you as a pseudonym, Kathy, So I have been waiting. This conversation has been some twenty five years for me in the making. Twenty years in the making for me. So I just want to say thank you for all the work that you've done in the community for experiencers.

2:45 Speaker 1: It's a very touchy subject. It's very people don't really want to touch it. And it frustrates me because again, you know, I was just in Congress for the hearings, and out of all the hearings that they've had, you know, abductions really don't cat mentioned. It's not something I don't think the world is ready to talk about. So maybe we could start off just asking, you know, a little bit about you and why you think abductions are so taboo.

3:10 Speaker 2: Well, I know, I'm in my own instance. When I first started to realize what was happening to me, I was like, no, this, you know, this makes no sense. This is some crazy shit, and there's got to be another explanation for it. And I tried really hard to find out, you know, figure out what that explanation would be.

3:36 Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, and I called a lot for years, I called a lot of my memories dreams because I didn't know how else to think of them, because they didn't fit in my world, you know, or in the my reality, and they didn't make sense. But like I said, at the end of the day, I couldn't blame a dream for the mark in the yard, the other people that witnessed Fay, the damage that was done to my dog, and my eyes, and you know, I eventually began to realize that indeed my memories were memories. Now I have theories and some things that I have opinions on what might have been, because my memories are still incomplete.

4:23 Speaker 2: But the things that I do remember, and I always try to make sure I specify to people when I am talking about that kind of stuff that that's my gut feeling or that's what I feel. But I could be wrong, you know, but there are certain things I'm not wrong about. And I'm not wrong about that mark in the yard. I'm not wrong about my eyes. You know, the other people around me that have experienced things with me, I'm no control over them. I say that my experiences are contagious because people who hang around me or my family, it's not just me, eventually end up either having an experience with one of us or have their own.

4:59 Speaker 1: So I had to come to your house, all nice, Well, okay, so so why do you think now? Or let me rephrase this. You know, as I watched the congressional hearings unfold and the talking government starts to happen, you know, the stigma at least is starting to fade away. You know in terms of UFOs, right, why do you are you? Does it aggravate you that abductions aren't talked about, or do you agree that maybe this is a good strategy that we need to get UFOs and that to be the first domino that falls.

5:38 Speaker 2: When I was younger, it did aggravate me because I was here, I was out putting myself out there to be humiliated and ridiculed and back. You know, this was in the eighties and nineties. Nobody want to be famous for this. I sure in the hell didn't want to be famous for it. I had a family to protect, little kids to raise, single mom, I had a job, and I you know, this is not how I made my living. This is what was just something that happened to me. I wanted to share with everybody, and I would try to talk to anybody who would listen.

6:10 Speaker 2: And I was very bashful. And if you go back to some of the old video that you can see of me on some of these TV shows I went on with Bud, you can tell I'm absolutely mortified and I can barely make myself talk. But I felt that internal drive that I had a job to do, that I was what I was saying was important to somebody somewhere sometime. Now we're in the future, and I couldn't not I could not resist the urge to open my mouth. And then a lot of times when I'd say something afterwards, I think, oh, my god, why in the hell did I just say that?

6:47 Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, you know, but it is what it was, And when I first you know, twenty seventeen is when really really things started to change after the Times article, you know, in the world, I myself have been fortunate, unlike most experiencers or people that have had these experiences with these nhi, I had the support of my family and neighbors, friends, co workers because they were all there in my life witnessing it, having their own experiences. They knew, you know, that I wasn't lying or right up because they were seeing it themselves, right.

7:26 Speaker 2: So I was more fortunate that I had that support. So in my mind, another part of me was like, I got to do this because I got to pay this forward, because there's for everyone there like me that's Scott support, there's ten thousand who don't don't yes, for everyone like me who's out in public telling their story and their truth, there's probably one hundred thousand with crazier stories than me that won't open their mouth. And if I'm out here doing this, maybe they will feel more comfortable and talk about it.

7:56 Speaker 2: And the stigma was much worse forty years ago than it is now. But like I said, I was fortunate because I had a lot more support than most. And in twenty seventeen when the article broke with the tic TAC videos and all that stuff, and then Congress started to get interested, and I honestly, I never thought I would live to see the day that there would be an article like that in a mainstream newspaper. And then as I sat and watched the hearings, the first ones, I watched every minute of them on c SPAN, and I kept thinking to myself, Oh Jesus Christ, I never thought I would live to see this day.

8:38 Speaker 2: And then you know, they didn't say anything about the witnesses like me, the experiencers that had these complicated contacts, but I knew. I mean, I'm no dummy, and I understand that if you haven't seen or experienced this consciously anyway, it's going to be really hard for you to accept or even and listen to. And I understood that there had to be a beginning to this and there had to be a gentle glide into it. I just look, I can't hear you.

9:16 Speaker 1: That was really well said. I really really couldn't have like, I couldn't express that that better. Yeah, So you've been You've been described now this is you know from your peers and from people around the community, but you've been described as one of the most compelling voices in the UFO and experience or community. So what was it like to have your story shared with the world in Bud Hopkins's book Intruders in that CBS mini series.

9:50 Speaker 2: Well, initially it was kind of scary when Bud first approached the family. And you know, like I said, again, it wasn't just me, it was my whole family. So as a family, we decided, okay, you can write the book. He approached us and at first he said, I think your story is important because there's so many different parts to it, and a lot of these stories don't have all these other parts like the trace cases and the witnesses and everything. And he said, I really think it's important and I want the world to know about it.

10:22 Speaker 2: I want to write a book and all of us at first, We're sitting around the kitchen table and oh yeah, I don't think so. The whole idea, the whole point of me contacting him was I was just looking for somebody to help me assimilate this into my life, help me to understand it, and I just wanted a normal life.

10:43 Speaker 1: You know, how did you know, how did you get in contact with Bud?

10:48 Speaker 2: I've I had gotten his book Missing Time out of the library several months before the June thirty eighty three incident. I'd picked it up in my library. You know, I was a single mom, and library were free entertainment. I had two little kids, so we'd go there every weekend and I'd bring home stacks of books and I picked up Missing Time. And as I started reading and I started having panic attacks, I never could finish it. I have assigned a copy of it from Bud now and I still haven't finished it.

11:16 Speaker 1: But oh wow.

11:18 Speaker 2: In the back of that book there was a place that said, if you think you've had this experience you want to talk to somebody about it, here's my address, And it was an address that you could write to him. So after the June thirty eighty three incident, and I saw the mark in the yard and all the memories started coming back. I went back to the library and I got that book out to get the address out of the back, and then I came home and I wrote him like this fourteen page letter with a bunch of polaroid pictures of the yard and kind of tossed my older sister under the bus because I told him about her experience in sixty five and I had didn't ask for permission to do it.

11:55 Speaker 2: I figured, well, she'll be mad at me, but she'll get over it forgiveness, right, Yeah, you have to like me. I'm your sister, that sort of thing. Can't be mad at me forever, right, I mean I was young, But so that's how. And he wrote back eventually, you know, I don't know how many weeks it took. It was a while, but eventually, actually he called. He called and we spoke, and from that point on, I think it was like a two or three year investigation. Even though Bud was an artist, you know, he wasn't a scientist or a doctor thing like that, but he was a brilliant He enlisted the aid of people like doctor Afrodite Klamar, the psychiatrist in New York.

12:40 Speaker 2: You know, he sent soil samples off the laboratories, he got doctors to do testing for me. I had psychological written in verbal psychological testing at the hospital in New York that he arranged. I don't know how he arranged it or who paid for it, because I certainly didn't have the money. And you know, so he knew how to reach out to the right people. And then also he as well, he connected me with somebody he had like a buddy system for people that had experiences, and he introduced me to a woman in New York who was a little older than me, who'd had more conscious awareness of her experiences than I did.

13:22 Speaker 2: And her and I talked. She was very kind and she would like she told me, you can call me anytime, day or night if something's happening or you're feeling weird, you remember something, I'm here for you. So he kind of hooked me up with a buddy. And I mean, you know, he at the end of all of this, I've been asked many times, if you could have your life all over again and not have this weird stuff happen, would you make it go away? And there might have been a point in my life very young that I would have said yes.

13:52 Speaker 2: But at this point now I'm sixty five, almost sixty six, and I'm like, no, I wouldn't change a thing because everything I've been through has created the person I am today. You know. So, But anyway, right, other buddy, and I credit Bud for that, can I ask.

14:10 Speaker 1: If you don't have to say it, I'd actually rather you didn't. This buddy that you were You're given was her? Was it her? It was a woman and very high profile case in New York.

14:28 Speaker 2: Actually, no, no, it's not who you're thinking it is. Oh okay, I'm already know what you're thinking. Another yeah, all right, all right, all right, it wasn't a high profile and she was a she was an executive in a company. Uh you know, but not not in the way you would.

14:45 Speaker 1: Think she Okay, she was.

14:47 Speaker 2: Just really god lover. I can't even remember her first name right now, it's been so many years ago, but she I just if she's listening, if she's even still around, you know, thank you.

15:00 Speaker 1: I'll say thank you because I think, like you said, it's the experiences that really, you know, because we're born and then you know, we're kind of brought up by our parents in different ways, but for the most part, you know, black and white, what's real. This is real, I could hold it right. So it's a black and white world that we're raised in, and you know, we kind of go along and discover that there's a lot more gray than we were ever told. And that's when you know. People have these you know, they have these encounters that literally challenge their reality and sometimes it breaks them and sometimes it makes them who they are.

15:48 Speaker 1: And you know, it looks like you become a better person because of what you've experienced.

15:54 Speaker 2: But you used to tell me when I got older, and he would say, don't ever give them credit for what you did them, meaning those non human intelligence right, And I'm like, yeah, I get that, I understand that. But you know, sometimes I wondered that when I got hit in June thirty eighty three, when that light hit me, I always said, like part of me was erased and a new part was installed, like deb two point zero, you know what I mean, Because it was from that point forward that I began to change physically and mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all of it.

16:34 Speaker 2: It began.

16:35 Speaker 1: Then that's super strange.

16:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, trust me.

16:42 Speaker 1: Well, it's almost like a synchronicity. And I'm sure you know about this community and synchronicities, but I'll tell you off air, because they can't tell you all air. But so for people who may wonder, I want to, I want before we dive deeper. For listeners of yours who may not be familiar with your journey, I don't know how to be possible, but can you give us a brief overview of your experience, Take us back to that that day, bring us back and kind of walk us through what happened. And uh, let's set the let's set the foundation.

17:28 Speaker 2: Okay, it's it's kind of a long, complicated story. But I've learned over the years. I've learned how to like streamline it where you know, it doesn't take away from the actual idea, you know, or the thought of it. But I was I was a single mother, had moved back home with my parents to you know, get my shit together basically, And one night, when I was getting ready to go leave the house for a little while, I noticed there was a strange light in the pump house swimming pool that we had out in the backyard that had one of those we called it the cement pond like the Beverly Hillbillies.

18:08 Speaker 2: And I noted that, and I told my mom, I'm like, there's something. There's a weird light out there and the doors kind of open. She's like, don't worry about it. Your dad will get it whenever it gets home. So I got ready to leave a few minutes later, and I couldn't stop thinking about it. Something just rubbed me the wrong way. So I decided to go. This house was the Try Level Sandstone Try Level, and it had this split driveway in the front. The driveway goes to the garage, but then there's a drive that went along the side of the house, and there was a turn around the back and then behind the pool, and that's where my dad's workshop was.

18:42 Speaker 2: And the workshop had a lot of expensive motorcycles. He restored Indian motorcycles and all kind of stuff back there. So I'm thinking, you know, I'm gonna just kind of whip around behind that just to check them, make sure that the shop is okay before I leave. I'm thinking burglars, not aliens. So I go back there and I checked everything looks fine. I did notice that the door to the garage that was attached to the house was open, which shouldn't have been. But instead of stopping, I just went to my friend's house because she lived one street over.

19:15 Speaker 2: It took like two minutes, and I called my mom and I told her. I hed, hey, the pedestrian door's open on the garage and she's like, well, don't worry about it. Your dad probably left it open. He can show it when he gets home. My mom, my mom was she was fearless, nothing bothered her ever. I said, okay. So I hung up the phone, and within you know, an instant after I hung up, the phone rang and it was her and she said, I need I want you to come home right now. And I said, what's wrong? You know, I could hear the panic in her voice, and I my friend's husband was listening to our conversation, and then he hollers over my shoulder, tell her to call the police.

20:02 Speaker 2: That's what we pay him for. And she heard him, and she said, I don't want anybody here but you. I'm like, okay, So to my friends, I'll be back in a few I'm gonna go check things out. And I went home, got there, pulled up the side drive, went into the side many. Uh. We called it the Florida Room. I picked up my dad's shotgun. Mom says, I know that's you know, that's not loaded, right, And I said, yes, I know, but whoever's out there doesn't so right, you know, because I'm thinking I get close enough to him to hit him with before they figure out I'm not gonna hell yeah, you know what I mean.

20:35 Speaker 2: And that's so weird too. That was out of character for me because I was not a brave person. Today, I wouldn't think twice about it, but back then that was a big deal that I even did that.

20:44 Speaker 1: So so in terms of fight or flight, you saw yourself more as a flight.

20:51 Speaker 2: Usually typically I would hide. I'm a hider, you know. I'm a head on three sixty swivel, watching everybody's body language and moves. I mean, just a survivor that way I always have been. But man, I was like, okay, come on, let's go bring it. I went out there, marched my happy asset by there with the and everything. I didn't see anything back there that disturbed me. I did find my dog under dad's ladder truck and she would not come out, So I'm like, fine, stay there, and so I headed to the garage, and I walked through the garage door, the pedestrian door into the garage, assuming that if there was anybody out here messing around, they'd have to be hiding in there, because I saw nothing anywhere else right.

21:36 Speaker 2: And about the time I was ready to look behind some mattresses that were leaned up against the wall, I felt suddenly like I was on fire. I felt like every my skin was burning, and I remember thinking, oh my god, I got to get out of here right now. And I turned to run through the pedestrian door. And as soon as I got to that open doorway, something hit me in the chest, like chest area, tummy, chest, so like the like right here, tlexus, Yeah, like right right here. It was like a light, a burst of light, and it was so bright and intense that I am I know, my eyes had to be closed.

22:18 Speaker 2: That's like the that's like the natural reflex. But I couldn't get away from it. I couldn't not see it, and I also could not move, and I started to shake. And when I started to shake, I thought, I remember thinking I'm dead. I'm dead. Yeah, I remember thinking I'm dead. And I don't know how long I was in that condition. I don't remember i've I've used the term before. People laugh at me. I said, time stopped. The reason I say time stopped is because I don't know how long I stood there. I have no I have no sensation of what was going on around me until I the shaking got so intense.

22:57 Speaker 2: It was like a vibrating and it was almost like every month, all acue of my body was independently vibrating, and I can feel every single one of them. And then it stopped and the light became much less intense, and I remembered I feel at one point feeling somebody pulled down on my shoulder, on my right shoulder from behind, and I heard a voice that said it was unfortunate that I'd felt pain. Also, at that point, I realized that I was no longer in the doorway. I was out on the patio, maybe ten feet or so.

23:31 Speaker 2: And I don't remember walking out there. I don't know how I got there. Also, at that point, I realized my eyes were jacked up. I couldn't see shit. It was like flash blast, like a flashbulb you ever, yes got, you know, it was like that. It was painful and splotchy but I could see movement in front of me, and I saw what looked to me like children, six kids, all all totaled, in my mom's backyard. And I'm thinking, what are these kids doing in my mom's backyard? And they seemed to come from different directions, and they all gathered up by the driveway at the quarter where the swimming pool is, and they kind of lined up, and then they just started to slide across the yard towards me, but not right at me.

24:20 Speaker 2: And I'm watching them. I still can't move, but I can see them, and I'm following them, and I don't see a lot of detail. I believe. I told Bud they were like bullet shape, but I thought they were kids, but I kept thinking they were bullet shaped because their heads were bigger than their little bodies. They kind of went down right, So

24:44 Speaker 2: it was at that point, as they got closer to me, that's when I realized there was this thing off to my left, maybe twenty twenty five. I'm sucky with distance. I'm too, I'm like almost dyslexic with right left north southeast west. I don't know why, but oh, I saw this thing. It was about the size of the pumphouse of the swimming pool was not very big, maybe ten feet tall. It was shaped like an egg, and it was sitting right there, and I could see like a basketball sized ball of white light off to the side of it, and that light went down really slow and came back up really slow.

25:27 Speaker 2: At that point, I lost track of where these little kids were. I never saw them go into that thing. I don't know where they went, because as soon as I saw that egg thing, I freaked out because I didn't want to look at it. But I didn't want to not look at it. If you could understand how I needed to know where it was in proximity to me, you know what I'm saying that kind of spear. And then at some point I remember thinking, oh my god, my kids, because they were in the house right here behind me, and what is all this shit going on in front of me?

25:58 Speaker 2: You know? And as soon as I had the thought my kids, my kids, the voice said, the same disembodied voice I didn't see anybody talk to me, said your children are okay, Okay, who the fuck is saying that? Hell, I don't know, I mean, I can't. I couldn't see anybody, and I couldn't turn around, I couldn't look, and I'm like, you know what.

26:21 Speaker 1: I'm not going to take your word for it, like.

26:24 Speaker 2: What is happening here? You know? And I'm and the next thing I remember, I kind of like black out. I come in and out of consciousness of something I don't know. But the next thing I remember, I hear my name, but this time the voice was different. I heard somebody say Debbie. And as soon as I heard my name, I immediately could move. I spun around on my feet and I started to walk toward it. And it was my mother. She was actually kind of hanging out the door where there's a the bottom patio, a set of steps and then another porch, and that's where where the kitchen door was.

27:01 Speaker 2: And Mom was kind of out the kitchen door a little bit, calling my name, and I said yeah, and she says, this is everything okay? And I said, yeah, everything's cool. But in my mind, I'm thinking, what is wrong with me? I just feel so weird and gross now, and I thought I don't want to sew anymore. And I don't know. I can't remember at this point whether I went back to my friend's house or I just called her. I'm like, hey, let's go swimming instead, you know, and she agreed. So her and her daughter was over at mom's house and we're walking back to the swimming pool across the yard where all this nonsense just happened that I don't remember, and her daughter steps on something in the yard and we thought maybe she'd stepped on a bee.

27:44 Speaker 2: You know, I had a stinger in her foot. We couldn't see it. So we got to the pool, couldn't see anything, and it's dark now by this time. It's stark outside, but the lights are on and the pool we have water lights in the pool. It was really cool. But we're all out there maybe ten minutes or so, and the we all start feeling kind of nauseated, kind of sick to our stomachs, and I'm getting a headache, and I'm starting to notice my eyes are burning, and I'm starting to also notice halos around the lights.

28:14 Speaker 2: You know, you when you were a kid, you ever getting humatism? Well, did you ever remember, like when you've got your eyes in the chlorine and you open your eyes too much and then your eyes would be all red and burning and you can see halos. That's what my eyes were doing, but I hadn't gotten my head, I hadn't got my eyes in the water, So I think that my friend comments suggested, Hey, you know, maybe if we let's go to White Castle and get some white some hamburgers, maybe we'll feel better. I'm like, I don't know about that, and I can't remember whether we actually did that or not.

28:47 Speaker 2: But eventually they went home and I went to bed. Next morning. When I got up, my eyes were swelled completely shut, and I was in so much pain that my mom took me to the emergency room in Indie at the hospital. When we were in the emergency room, I don't know why this is, but there was actually an eye doctor in there. I don't know if he was just visiting, passing through doing something, but he happened to be in the er somewhere. Somebody was able to get him to bring him to look at me, and he had my mom take me across the street to his office so he could closer examine me because he had more of his equipment there.

29:28 Speaker 2: So she did and they worked me in and the first thing he asked me was have you looked into the arc of a welders torch or the sun? And I'm like, at this point, I don't remember the light and the kids and that egg thing at that point, and I thought, to this guy, what the hell is wrong with you? Why you asked me some dumb shit like that. I'm thinking this. I would never say that to a doctor. I mean I might now, but back then I certainly wouldn't. But anyway, he was surprised that I hadn't had an any symptoms prior to when I woke up that morning, other than you know, I said, well, I didn't feel very good last night.

30:06 Speaker 2: They were burning a little bit, it was, apparently, he said, really bad. So I had drops and I some greasy vaseline gel stuff they put my eyes my eyes My vision changed instant immediately from that point forward in my life. I never wore glasses before, and all of a sudden, I'm extremely far sighted, so I'm like wearing plus two point fives when I'm you know, twenty four, and my eyes would even years later, my eyes would still all of a sudden start burning and water up and water real bad for an hour or two for no reason, and then go away.

30:44 Speaker 2: And before I get too distracted, I just want to say I was diagnosed with cataracts in my thirties and had to have both of my lens replaced. By the time I hit fifty, I think I might have been just at fifty. And also I was diagnosed with macular degeneration, Oh god, in my forties. Uh, age related macular degeneration in my forties. How do you? How does that work?

31:09 Speaker 1: But that's like a sixty year old Yeah, typically so even cataracts, you know, typically don't call that at thirty forty years old.

31:19 Speaker 2: Well, and that's why that's why I lasted till they resisted operating on and because of my age. But they were horrible. They were really bad. So but they finally did so they they.

31:30 Speaker 1: I mean for people who don't understand, it's almost like you sat to the doctor. What they're thinking is, did she sit and just stare at the song for ten minutes?

31:43 Speaker 2: I know, do you?

31:45 Speaker 1: Well, that's why I'm talking, dude, right, So so so what my I guess?

31:52 Speaker 2: Wow? So well, I need the story's not done yet. I just wanted to make point that out also, And you know, I have had some other health issues right since then as well. But I come home and the next day we're all out there a day or so we're all out there because it's the fourth of July and the family's over there for the fourth of July holiday. I don't know exactly the fourth of July, but my nephew brings it to our attention that there's this weird mark in the yard. So we all run out there and there's this mark in the yard and it's an eight foot diameter circle, and it has a swath going off of it that's forty nine feet long, goes all the way across the backyard to the driveway and ends in a perfect arc, and all the grass in it is just kind of a grays brown, and it just lays down right on top of this dirt that's now like a rock.

32:49 Speaker 2: And I'm looking at the mark. Mom's looking at it, and my mother kind of giggles and said, oh, that's where our UFO landed the other night. And when she said that, it was like somebody snapped a finger. And I remember turning around looking at her and thinking, what is wrong with you? And because she was laughing, then the kids were giggling. And then when I looked back in the mark, it was like someone slapped me in the face and woke me up, and I'm like, oh shit, I started. The first thing I remember was the light, and then I started remembering the kids.

33:23 Speaker 2: The thing the I hate to call it a craft because it's so little. Those six kids couldn't go in there and fly anywhere. I don't know what the hell it.

33:31 Speaker 1: Was, did you. I'm going to show you a picture, and it's a picture from a video that was just released on News Nation by this whistleblower apparently who worked on crash retrievals. And it's a craft being it's an egg. So I don't know if you could see this, but do you see what it's tethered?

34:00 Speaker 2: Yeah? I can see it on the end of that looks like it's in some kind of or something.

34:06 Speaker 1: Right, but so so the the witness says, that is an egg shaped craft. No surfaces, no doors, no nothing. Now does that look at all like what you saw?

34:18 Speaker 2: I mean, this is a The shape of it does for sure. I mean except for mine was sitting on its butt, like the big end on the ground and the pointy end on top right like that.

34:28 Speaker 1: But but so so so that so that egg shape, you know. Lani Zamura describes the shape that obviously we just saw they described that shape, and you you had your experiences with an egg shaped craft.

34:44 Speaker 2: Now. I remember seeing, or I think I remember seeing like little skinny legs coming out the widest part of it, but I wouldn't call them legs because they were like too little to like hold any weight. There was like four of them, and I don't know if they were just like trying to stabilize this because I told but I think at one point I almost wondered if it was actually touching the ground all the way, because it kind of bobbled a little bit. Have you ever looked at something through the heat of a fire, You know that little wavy It was kind of like that, Like, yeah, at something through the heat of a fire.

35:25 Speaker 2: It kind of wobbly. And I don't know that those little skinny things coming out the sides of it could actually support the weight of it. I mean, it was small, but those were pretty skinny, and I don't remember seeing them come out or go away. I don't even remember seeing the thing go away, right, It's like my mind just went completely blank after there.

35:44 Speaker 1: Was there was there's no discernible marks in the ground that would signify landing gear.

35:49 Speaker 2: There no there was a big crack on one side of the dirt and it was opened up.

35:57 Speaker 1: But no, no, not that.

36:00 Speaker 2: It's not that I remember. I mean it could have been. I mean it was forty two years ago. I don't. My main concern was just that thing. And I will tell you then after that, the mark in the yard lasted about three two or three years, maybe two. It didn't heal up for a full like three years. It's and the first winter when it snowed, snow melted off of it. What the fuck? And I mean there's pictures. I've got pictures on the web side of the mark. I've got pictures where the snow melted off. Bud had them.

36:33 Speaker 2: We sent them, like, what the hell?

36:36 Speaker 1: Even if you could say some of those, yeah.

36:38 Speaker 2: Sure, it's like even though the grass was laid down, you know what I mean in that area, there's been other places in the yard where the grass got mashed down with card tires or whatever and the snow didn't melt off of it. I did my own experiment with it, and I took I chunked out a hunk of it with a spade, and then I dug up some regular dirt elsewhere, and I put them in a cup of water overnight, and the regular dirt just turned into mud. But the stuff I was able to chunk out of the yard still was a rock.

37:10 Speaker 2: I still have samples of that that I saved. I chucked up a bunch of them. I don't know why I felt it was important. I don't know if there was anything after forty two years, but anyway, you know, and eventually Bud did. He did take some of the samples, and he did do I had the laboratory do it. I can't remember all that they found from it at the time, but it is written in The Intruders and in his book what they did with it. My dad and my uncle Jim had a Geiger counter from like World War two, and they swore up and down at worked.

37:42 Speaker 2: I don't know where the hell they got at, but they were out messing around with that Geiger counter for days and they could not get it to zero until they got like a half an acre away by behind the garage.

37:54 Speaker 1: So it was showing a radioactive signature.

37:56 Speaker 2: My dad said it was I cannot tell you that I know that. I don't know. I know what my dad said, but I mean, nobody came out to look. I even called the agricultural agent for the state of Indiana to ask them what could cause things like this in the yard. And I found people who could tell me what it was not, but I could never find someone tell me what it was right. And my father was a ham radio operator, so he had a big one hundred foot tower very close to this mark, and there's a coaxle cable running into the house that was attached to his radios, and within the coaxle cable, the metal itself was melted all together and wrecked.

38:43 Speaker 2: One of the transformer in the backyard by the poolhouse was damaged. I mean, there was a lot of things that happened that people aren't aware of. And like I said, my case was its forty some years old, and so a lot of people that are new to this don't don't know anything about it, don't know much about Bud. And then unfortunately, now both my parents are gone, the house has been sold. You know, I don't even know if the two neighbors that were witnesses that night are even still alive. I haven't talked to them in years and years, so, you know, Fortunately there's some documentation from Bud and some that I had.

39:25 Speaker 2: And that's about it. So when I tell my story to people, sometimes they look at me like, yeah, right, whatever, And I get it. Believe me. If I hadn't seen this shit by my own eyes, I would wonder, and I wondered myself sometimes, God, if I lost my mind? What the hell is wrong with me? You know? So you know I understand that. But yeah, and from that point on, after that night, I say, I had a nervous breakdown. I think I kind of did you know? I was terrified for my children. I had all kinds of weird memories coming back.

40:02 Speaker 2: I started having lucid dreams. There was a whole point in my life for like a year after that that I would have these I call them visions. I don't know how to explain it. It would wake me up in my sleep and I would see these shapes and numbers and ideas and words in my head, and it wouldn't leave me alone until I wrote it down. And once I took it out of my head and put it somewhere so that it didn't get lost, then I could go on about my business. I even started keeping a journal in a sketchbook in my car, and there was more than one time that I had to pull over because I couldn't even concentrate on my driving until whatever it was that came in my head that I wrote it down, and then I was okay, and I wrote down all kinds of weird stuff.

40:52 Speaker 2: Thankfully that only would happen about a year.

40:55 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I would very be I'd be very interested.

40:59 Speaker 2: Well, some of it I've published in the book, and some of it Bud had, and Bud had hung on to some he didn't make it public because I think partly it was because he wanted to use it as control, you know, to when other people came just you know, you know, when everything out there in the open, because some people were and some people were, you know, just susceptible to absorbing that stuff and taking it as their own. Not consciously maybe, but.

41:30 Speaker 1: That's a good point, but it's it's.

41:32 Speaker 2: You know, it's a lot of it's out there now. And now I'm to the point where I don't have physical contact. I had a few other times after that initial big blast that was my the pivotal point of my life and my you know, I'd had some strange things happened to me before that, and I've had a couple of strange things happened to me after that physically, but at this point in my life, what I experience now is more psychological. Uh, Like I have you know, I have lucid dreams, okay, and stuff, and the lucid dreams happens is weird.

42:16 Speaker 2: And a couple of times I've been awake and I've had some weird something weird happened to me when.

42:20 Speaker 1: I was awake, a vision.

42:24 Speaker 2: I was actually taking a walk out in the summer, I mean out in the sun. It was the fall. I was just trying to absorb some of that last minute good weather, right because I live in Indiana.

42:35 Speaker 1: Eh.

42:35 Speaker 2: Yeah. I have my headphones on, listening to my tune, making myself feel really thin and just real connected to the earth and just relaxed, you know. And all of a sudden, I hear a man's voice and he says, hey Dad. So I pull my headphones off and I turn around to see who that could be. I didn't recognize the voice. I didn't see anybody. And I heard him again, and I was like, Okay, I'm used to this, you know, I don't freak out about it anymore. I said, you know, okay, Yeah, who are you? Uh? And he says, do you know where Let's see if I don't want to say it wrong, I wrote it down.

43:20 Speaker 2: Do you know where I am? You look like a little ball of light just floating around in the darkness, what y'all? And I and he said, I look like a little ball of light floating around in the darkness to you from where you are, But I look just like you where I am to me And I said, I said, uh, are you dead? You know, because I've been doing the paranormal stuff and recording these disembodied voices, And I said, are you dead? And he said he laughed, and he said I'm just as alive as you are. And I said, are you one of those aliens?

44:01 Speaker 2: One of those gray guys? And he laughed again and he said no. He said, they're your future. What I and I that's what I said. I'm like, uh, okay, and that it was quiet, and I'm still walking. I continued my walk now because I didn't want to look like I was a crazy person standing in the road talking to myself. So I was continuing to walk, hoping people would think I was just talking to somebody on my head and set on my phone. Thank God for cell phones now, you know, right right.

44:31 Speaker 1: I was gonna say the bluetooth thing too.

44:33 Speaker 2: But it stopped and I said, Hello, are you still there? Nope, he's gone. So and you know, a normal healthy person would think, Jesus Christ, I've lost my mind. I am having you know, my mind is gone. I'm shot.

44:50 Speaker 1: I'm hearing voices.

44:52 Speaker 2: And I don't typically hear voices. You know what I mean that? I actually thought there was a person standing behind me. H And it wasn't any of my you know you have. I have a thought voice that talks to me. I read. When I'm reading something, I'm reading it in my head too. I'm visual and auditory. I'm both right. It is with no voice i'd ever recognized. I've never heard before. I didn't know who that was, but he apparently knew me as it called my name got my attention.

45:25 Speaker 1: And he didn't he didn't is your is a part of me for asking? But is is your full actual full name? Debra?

45:34 Speaker 2: Yes?

45:35 Speaker 1: So, but he called you Debb.

45:38 Speaker 2: Hey deb like I've got you. I know, I've got EVPs that I've recorded it a paranormal things that says, hey, deb How you doing what I know that my my one, my one paranormal group, well the first one I started out with. When I began to connect the two things and think there's something to this. And I don't think I'm always recording dead people. I think I'm recording people that live here with me, only I just can't see them, you know what I mean. Well there. They used to call me the antenna though, because my recorder would pick up the EVPs and nobody else would or maybe one other person we had.

46:20 Speaker 2: We did have one one time where my recorder picked it up and so did the camera that was videotaping the area also picked it up. This is so cool. We were doing a private residence in the first group that I was ever in, and the whole house was empty. The family complained about a little girl ghost that would run through the yard the house and wake them up at night, and there was no little girls in the family, so the family left. Our base station was set up in their garage, which was attached and the only thing in the house that it was alive was their little dog who and you know, every time she walked through the room, we'd always notate it, you know.

46:57 Speaker 2: Uh. For review purposes later. Right, So in one of the rooms, in the family room, I think my recorder was sitting on the table and we had a camera up in the corner of the room, but it also had a microphone on it. The dog walked into the room, walked past the end table, walked past the table with my recorder on it, and you very clearly hear a little voice say hi, Ginger, and the dog stops and lays down. Well, the dog's name was Ginger. Not only did we record it on my recorder, but the camera the microphone picked it up as well.

47:37 Speaker 2: So, I mean, and this it was phenomenal, That was amazing. And the very first EVP I ever recorded was like twenty five years ago, and it was the old man's voice and he said, are the spirits listening? And I had this epiphany. I'm like, holy shit, we're the spirits somewhere else, somebody's trying to listen to us.

47:57 Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah, oh my god.

48:00 Speaker 2: You know, once that thought came out of my head, it and nothing was going back in.

48:04 Speaker 1: Right right, So wow, would have thought that or or what an interesting thought that maybe it's not that we're that we're picking up you know, ghosts. Uh it just and and hear me out of this. I've always said that I think I really don't think ghosts really exist, because you know, if if you're if you're fluent in you know, uithology, we hear about these kind of like soul contracts, and you know that we choose to come here. Well, that doesn't really leave room for ghosts because that would mean that our our our souls are constantly transitioning.

48:46 Speaker 1: And I just don't think ghosts would be the right word for it. Now, could it be? Could ghost be real in a different sense, like more of an echo that maybe the land holds or you know, structures hold this resonant frequency of an echo, you know, could that be real? Yes? But what if what you just said is correct and we're just channeling or hearing a different dimension and they're hearing us.

49:18 Speaker 2: And I think that's an option. I think there's multiple things that are going on. Have you, I don't know, you're kind of young, do you know? Do you remember VHS tapes? Yes? Yes, I do, of course, Okay, you know, and we were cheap, so we would erase things and re record our shows and erase them and re record them a million times, but eventually, when you recorded your show, you might see a little ghost of an older recording that was left on the tape. And in my brain, I thought, Okay, I'm just seeing a recording of something that's been here before that's kind of left the kind of a ghost imprint on the whatever it is we live in, right That That was my That was my thinking on what some of that could be as well.

50:15 Speaker 2: I mean I could be wrong, of course, that.

50:17 Speaker 1: That's probably one of the and and again that kind of goes goes with what I said. It's like, I'm in I'm in Massachusetts. I grew up in a next to a haunted, haunted road that has ties to Salem in the Witch trials. And there's the Bridgewater Triangle. And the funny thing at all these locations is the atrocities that happened there. So does the land or does the world? Like you said, is it is it? You know, like a tape and what we're seeing is, uh, you know, the veil because fast almost I think.

51:02 Speaker 2: The paranormal word would be residual, right right right?

51:07 Speaker 1: That is wow, that is very interesting and I definitely want to get into that more. But so all right, so you have your experience, your mom mentions UFO, it kind of starts coming back to you at this time. What happens next? Do you do you seek regression? And and what plays out? How do we get to where we are?

51:37 Speaker 2: Well? I wrote a letter to Bud and he contacted us and the investigations started, and then I eventually I went to New York. I saw my warshroom dryer that I had in storage to get enough money for a bus ticket to go there, and then I about jumped off the bus halfway there because I thought, what the hell's wrong with you? You're going to see a man in the big city of New York, which panicked me, you know, oh yeah, and this guy wrote a book about aliens and UFOs. He could be an axe murderer and you're a mother, what is wrong with you?

52:10 Speaker 2: And almost jump I had a major panic attack on the bus, but I didn't. I went. I went through with it, and when I got there, he was very kind and he immediately immediately took me to doctor Klamar's office, the psychiatrist in New York. We went there before I think we even went to his apartment. We went straight there and in retrospect, he was probably, you know, making sure I wasn't an axe murderer. I didn't think about it at the time, but you know, the investigation began and a lot of Bud brought in a lot of professionals and scientific minds to look at things, and then he wanted to write the book.

52:53 Speaker 2: The book got written, it was picked up, became a best seller, and eventually the rights to it were so to Tracy Tourmae. For a while, the Intruder's Mini series was loosely based on our story. It's got the name, and maybe one or two of the scenes in it were from the book, but everything else was basically compilations of other cases and not actually people, you know, which was made me kind of angry at the time because then I'd have people come up to me and say, oh, remember in the in the movie that you did this, and I'm like, I didn't do that.

53:27 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, not real, you know. It didn't feel I felt bad, but yet it but also now in retrospect, i'm they did a very respectful job of it, which was very unusual for the time, and so and it did it did open a lot of people's eyes. So it served a good purpose in the end, and for that I'm thankful. Right. I went on to have you know, strange encounters with people and other weird experiences. More paranormal stuff started to happen. I began to develop different kinds of I don't know, call them gifts, because I feel like everybody can do some of the things that I did.

54:08 Speaker 2: And just you know, I started changing and growing and looking at life and people in a whole different way, and the compelling in the driving me to speak out and tell my story and make people listen God. Stronger and stronger. I started to feel like something was coming and that I needed to do my part to help people be ready for it. Like, you know, I'm not any I'm not like a big deal, I'm not special in any way. There are millions of people just like me in the whole wide world. I just wanted the I just noticed.

54:49 Speaker 2: Maybe first I paid attention more, you know,

54:54 Speaker 2: And so you know, I wrote the books that I wrote were mostly for my grandkids, my granddaughter, and for people like me who had the experiences like I've had so they didn't feel so alone because I was really I had a couple experiences with my mom after that, and some weird things happened with neighbors after that, you know, and other family members. They're just there's so many. That's why I took my journals. Basically, I write down every weird thing that happened, right, and then that turned into two books.

55:35 Speaker 2: Right. And then I have the website. I've had that website for twenty some years, and I posted stuff on there, you know, just to so the people know they're not the only ones. Yeah, I might, maybe I'm crazy. I don't know. I mean, they tested me in New York and they said I wasn't crazy. I've been tested. They said I was above average intelligence, not own too delusions, not schizophrenic, not any of that. But I did exhibit symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder and anxiety, which I've suffered from anxiety since I was at least preteen, right, and now now PTSD.

56:18 Speaker 2: Not just for the weird stuff that happened before I got that testing, but afterwards, life has lobbed a couple of cherries at me, cherry bombs. You know. I watched my late husband commit suicide, and then I had a tornado drop a house on me, and I lost everything I owned and you know what, I continue to come out of the shit. Like my mom always said, I was the only kid that she ever had that could fall into a bucket of shit and come out smelling like a rose. Every time I feel blessed, and even looking at the most tragic parts of my life, I look at those as gifts because they showed me who I was and what I was capable of.

57:05 Speaker 2: And I know everybody out here is just like me, and I want them to remember that. I want them to realize that the whole disclosure thing, I'm so happy to see it starting to happen, and government starting to listen and people starting to speak out right, but people like me experiencers and they're, like I said, millions and millions of us belong in that narrative. We are an important piece of that puzzle and you will never get the whole story or the whole truth without us. So when Leslie invited me to be a part of that documentary, I literally physically had a response to it that told me that's what you should do next.

57:52 Speaker 1: So that's amazing that that is simply simply amazing. And by the way, it's so good for anyone out there. I know I said it in the intro, But season two of UFOs Investigating the Unknown does feature deb and uh, I think it's in the latter two episodes.

58:14 Speaker 2: It's episode four and five.

58:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, and and it's that that's I loved it. It was so well, very well done, and you you did a great job. When mhm, what what what do you think is the end? Now this is obviously maybe some speculation mixed with I don't know if some information that you've ever received, But what do you think that the endgame for for these abduction programs are? Did you ever get told any info by you know, a non human intelligence interaction?

58:56 Speaker 2: What?

58:56 Speaker 1: What?

58:57 Speaker 2: What? What?

58:58 Speaker 1: What are they doing?

59:01 Speaker 2: I've had some memories of some kinds of communication with them, with whatever it was that I had contact with. I can tell you what I was told, and I can tell you what my theory about it was. But I don't mean that. That don't mean it's right, and that don't mean it's the truth, because I don't know if they told me the truth or they just you know what I mean. But the one conversation, I guess, for lack of a better way to put it, wasn't his mouth didn't move, but I could hear him. Uh he was. He couldn't understand why I was upset with him, because what they were doing was good for them and good for us humans.

59:55 Speaker 2: And in my mind I visualized, because sometimes it was visualizations put in my mind that was how I communicate, was being communicated with, not words. And I saw a little kid being taken to the doctor, screaming and kicking and getting a shot from the doctor, a vaccine that was going to protect them later down the road from something that could be harmful to them. And so that was the message that was being communicated to me by this guy calling this thing this man. That's not that's the that's the idea that was being communicated to me by him, that what was happening was gonna save me later and gonna help them.

1:01:00 Speaker 2: But my opinion is I think there's a whole there's more than one kind of life out here interacting with us. There's more than one species, there's more than one agenda. I can only speak to what I had contact with, but I have no idea what the rest of them want. I can tell you also that I felt protected by them, like they were going to keep an eye on me, or they were going to take care of me, you know, which is weird, but sounds like they have though well in a way. I mean, I have some health issues now that honestly, I have no proof, but I kind of connected with the con the contact that I had with them, you know.

1:01:54 Speaker 2: But I don't think it was intentional. I think it was just like a an inadvertent side effect of some things that happened, like the light and whatever other stuff. But so I don't think it was benevolent. And I, you know, I always have every time I hear the negative, oh we got to be afraid narrative, the threat narrative. I was listening to the some video the other night and I was I heard that, and I said, out loud, I said, we're more of a threat to ourselves in the sky than they are. They know how to get out of the way.

1:02:33 Speaker 2: That's some bullshit.

1:02:36 Speaker 1: That is the truest statement I've heard.

1:02:38 Speaker 2: They know how to get out of the way. They you know, how many times have you heard somebody fly into a UFO and crash, but how many times you hear other people, you know, playing And I thought that, and I said that out loud. I'm like, you know, dummy, You're more of a threat to yourself than they are to us. You know, if anything, we're the scary ones. And I thought, you know.

1:02:59 Speaker 1: That at least unhinged.

1:03:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was one of the like, one of the messages that I felt compelled, that I felt like I needed to pass through to other people was Look, I mean, I've had contact with them. I'm sixty six years old almost I'll be sixty six in a couple of weeks, and I'm still here. They didn't kill me. I had a decent life. They I should have been dead. There are a couple of times in my life when I should have been dead, but I didn't die. I even had an ND and I still came back. Okay, when I gave birth to my son.

1:03:38 Speaker 1: So do you mind if you.

1:03:42 Speaker 2: Want to hear about it?

1:03:43 Speaker 1: I fact, of course I do.

1:03:46 Speaker 2: But you know that, and I don't know. In the big picture, I think that it's all connected.

1:03:53 Speaker 1: Before you go into the ND, do you think that maybe just maybe this is where we get the notion of religion Guardian angels and oh sure, could that be?

1:04:08 Speaker 2: You know, I think we're just filtering all of what we're seeing around us with the culture that we have and the social social structure that we live in. I don't know how to say the words for good. I have the thoughts in the head, but I can't make the words come out good. But yeah, I mean I think that that's where I used to laugh and say Jesus was alien, you big dummy. He used to come and tell you know, I'm just being mouthy, so don't pay attention. But that thought would flat in my head sometimes.

1:04:45 Speaker 2: But you know, I mean, you're right, that's what I feel like, you know. And human beings, I mean, we're we're like I always say this, We're Adobe, We're tube type radio is in Adobe Digital Surround Sound world. Right, we are not made originally to receive a lot of the shit that's going on around us. And every now and then if something slips in, well it's got to be magic, or it's got to be God, or it's got to be Jesus, it's got to be something. I mean, I don't want to disrespect anybody's religion, but I am not a religious person.

1:05:19 Speaker 2: I was raised in the religious family. My family wasn't My immediate family wasn't religious, but my other family was. But there's a difference between religion and what I feel in spirit, you know, So I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm an atheist. I feel more like Deism and Buddhism combined, you know, Buddhism more way of life, just to respect life. But like I've got I'm squirreling you. I'm squirreling you. I'm sorry, but like I have, I have Wi Fi signals and TV signals, radio signals going through my room right now, but I don't know that because my brain's not manufactured to receive any of it.

1:06:05 Speaker 2: But my television is, my radio is my router, my computer is right. There's shit going all around us that lives with us. That's that knows, that's that's sentient, that's here, and we just can't see it yet, but some of us can. I feel like I got an extra wire harn. It's installed on June thirtieth, nineteen eighty three, and it's been it's been firing up ever since. You know.

1:06:36 Speaker 1: I love that, So, I really do. I love that.

1:06:39 Speaker 2: I'm weird as hell, but I say similar things. I'll talk to anybody that'll listen.

1:06:45 Speaker 1: I've kid you not. I've said almost not. I can't say verbatim, but very something very similar is you know, we talk about consciousness and what is consciousness? Is it, you know, a byproduct of the brain. I don't think so, I don't think. I think the brain is more of a receiver for consciousness. So you know, just like with the with the radio, you could smash the radio, but the signal is still coming, right, so the signal still exists. It's still there. But so so similar notions. Now, you know Leslie's is her show about I think it was called Surviving Death If I'm not mistaken, was the first time I'd ever really dove into near death experiences.

1:07:43 Speaker 1: It's very very it's dramatic, it's it's it's interesting to me, and I don't know where it falls, you know, on the non human intelligence scale and you know where it fits in. But yeah, i'd love to hear your nd and talk about some of the implications.

1:08:06 Speaker 2: My NDE was not a typical one. It was not typically one that you would hear. I didn't see a tunnel of light, and I didn't see Jesus and I didn't see the Devil. I didn't see anything, but I had I was pregnant with my first son, and I developed a clampsia and it progressed and with and resisted treatment. And this was forty five years ago. My son is forty five. Okay, so I should have been dead, but I was hospitalized. My liver and kidney functions began to slowly cease, and my mom and my husband were told they have to terminate my pregnancy, even though my son was still he was not due for six weeks, so he was six weeks premature.

1:09:04 Speaker 2: But if they didn't take him by cesare and early, I was going to die. I was already semi comatose at that point, and so my husband, because back then, your husband had to tell them what they could do with you, do it, you know, save my wife. And so they took him for an emergency sea section. And I remember there's two things that happened in this. They they gave they give you medication to paralyze you, and then they give you medication to unconscious you. And they gave me the medication to paralyze me.

1:09:42 Speaker 2: But they were a little I think light on the Yeah, it was. And I'll just tell you I've never seen a surgeon surgeon surgery before, but they don't just go whip. It was a pinch and a pool and a pinch and a pool, and it felt like a tear pinch, tear, pinch, tear as they got me open to take my baby out right, No, that's gross, I know. I tried to get their attention and let them know I could feel it. I tried to shake move myself, but I couldn't because I was paralyzed, and so my conscience was still aware, but my body was not was paralyzed.

1:10:17 Speaker 2: So anyway, at some point I think I did manage to get my legs to move enough that somebody noticed, and that I felt a strap go down tight on my legs, and then I was out. But at that point I was hearing the doctors talking about a sailboat at Geist Reservoir, okay, and there were several there was a bunch of people in the surgery. There's a bunch of people in that operating room when I had my baby, a bunch, And I heard somebody said something about Geists Reservoir and a sailboat, right, And then all of a sudden, all the noise in the chatter that I was hearing started to fade away, and it felt like I was moving into another room, it faded and faded and faded to the point where it was dead silent.

1:11:08 Speaker 2: And the moment that it became silent, I felt a disconnect and it was almost I could almost hear. It was like a pop, and I literally disconnected from my body and I am in my body. I think it's my body, but right now I exist. I am. I cannot see my hands, I can't see anything about me, but I am, and I'm trapped and I start pounding on this black wall in front of me, and I'm pounding with my fists and I am screaming at the top of my lungs. Let me out. I'm not dead, Let me out. And I'm pounding right and then I hear a voice, and in retrospect, I think it was a nurse that whispered in my ear during this time.

1:12:09 Speaker 2: But you know, that's my logical side, and it could very well be that it was a nurse, and if she was, she was an angel, because somebody whispered in my ear, you can't leave yet. Your baby needs you. You have a baby. And as soon as I heard her say you have a baby that needs you, I was like, ah, I have a baby. Because when I disconnected and started pounding, I completely forgot about the baby, all my life here or anything about me here, right. I just wanted out. I didn't want to be in this box anymore.

1:12:44 Speaker 2: Let me out. I forgot about my baby. And let me tell you what all I ever wanted to be was a mother. So as that woman said to me, that voice said, your baby needs you, I was like. And as soon as that happened, I reconnected and I could start to hear them again, but they and then they got louder and louder, and people were screaming and yelling, and there was banging and clanging going around. And then I realized I couldn't breathe, and I was like, you know, I was like, I can't breathe. And then I all of a sudden, I think somebody put a tube down my throat or whatever and started pumping oxygen into me.

1:13:28 Speaker 2: Because I remember, I don't know that that I'm assuming that's what happened. I didn't see it, but I as soon as that air started coming in my lungs, I was like, oh, thank god. And I started gulping it down like I was just swallowing big gulps of air and it felt so good, thank God, and I was just gulping it in right, And then I became somewhat consciously aware they were lifting my body off of the table and onto a stretcher. But then I blacked out again and I started shaping. I remember jerking, and then everything went black again, and then I woke up again.

1:14:12 Speaker 2: I was on the table again, and then they and the breathing and swallowing the air again and this time and they put me on the stretcher and they hauled me off and I went into the ICU. And I was later told and I didn't even know this when I was in the hospital, and then I was told this later that I went into cardiac arrest twice and had to be resuscitated twice in the operating room. Now, so that was my near death experience, which is not fancy and pretty, and frankly, it did two things. It made me realize when we die, we're not dead.

1:14:51 Speaker 2: But then I started having nightmare like, holy shit, what if I die and I can't get out. I actually I had another dream years later where I was told that when it's time for me to go, I'll be able to get out. I won't have to scream for help. It's freaking weird. I know you go from that, I mean Jesus Well, like I said, I came away from that having an entirely new respect for life. I came away from that. No, I'm afraid of pain, but death. No. I had a friend a few years ago that found out she was terminal with brain cancer and she called me.

1:15:33 Speaker 2: She's like, Debbie, I don't know what to do. I've never done this before. I said, what do you mean, what are you talking about? She said, I've never died before. I said, I said, you were dead before you got here, and you were pretty good with it. I said, you'll be fine. She's like, oh my god, I never thought of it that way. I know we don't die these bodies. I got a raggedy ass body. It ain't gonna last forever. But I am energy, you know what. I'm energy everybody. And that's another thing. I want people to realize people.

1:16:06 Speaker 2: I think I feel like people have forgotten who they are what they are. Human beings are powerful, energetic beings with powerful thoughts. Your thoughts are powerful. Look around you. Everything in this whole world began in somebody's mind as a thought, you have the power to change everything you do. Don't pass it off. Don't give somebody else that power that's yours. So and you know what I had I not had that experience in June thirtieth eighty three, I highly doubt that I would have been And I, like I said, I could be completely batshit crazy, but you know, I'm harmless than I try to help people.

1:16:45 Speaker 2: So well, after I moved out of my parents' house, after you know, I put myself through beauty school, and my mom, you know, god lover, she watched my kids while I went to beauty school, got a way to support everybody, you know, me and the kids, and got my own apartment. Moved into this apartment far east side of Indy and there's a lot of single moms there with kids. And there was a gal who lived in the apartment above mine who had a little boy about my kids's age, and we became friends, and eventually she heard about some of the weird stuff that happened to us because she'd come down hang around, and my mom would come over sometimes and we'd have coffee.

1:17:26 Speaker 2: And one day she came downstairs and she said, Hey, were you screaming? For help last night, and I said, no, why our bedrooms were hers was right above the mind. I'm like, no, why, what's wrong? She I don't know. I kept hearing you screaming, you are calling out for help. I kept hearing your voice. And I said, no, it wasn't me, you know, And I'm not prom to talk in my sleep or anything like that. And then she's then like the day or two later, she came back down and said, I woke up the other night and there was a bunch of little guys standing around my bed at the foot of my bed, and they all had hooded robes on.

1:17:57 Speaker 2: I'm like, I never seen nothing with no hooded robe on, so don't blame me. And then it was not too long after that she said that we our balcony. Her balcony had a metal railing around it. The balcony had metal railings around him. And she said she was awaken at night one night by the railing on her balcony rattling like mad. And she came downstairs and she's like, you know, weird shit never stopped, never happened until you moved in. What is that? What is up with? I don't know.

1:18:33 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I'm sorry.

1:18:36 Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because it followed a lot of us siblings. Where we moved to. People always thought, oh, it's the house that you lived in was like old burial ground or something like that, you know. No, No, the people that moved into mom and Dad's house after we moved out, eventually they found out about intruders and all the weird shit that happened in that house. And I heard through a mutual friend of ours that and the time that they have lived there since they have had nothing zero, nothing weird has ever happened there.

1:19:06 Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought you were doing something I don't know.

1:19:09 Speaker 1: But no, no, I accidentally hit a butt. How long was that?

1:19:15 Speaker 2: I don't know.

1:19:15 Speaker 1: Maybe, Oh my god, No, that's terrible.

1:19:19 Speaker 2: You're you can understand. You though that I was kind of cute. I thought it was a sound effect.

1:19:25 Speaker 1: It is a sound effect.

1:19:27 Speaker 2: A few minutes.

1:19:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, thank god, because I was like, how long did I just sound like a mouse?

1:19:39 Speaker 2: I thought it was I thought you were doing it on purpose. I'm like, okay, no, I have this thing.

1:19:47 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's different sound effects.

1:19:51 Speaker 2: Yeah right, I think Greg has like a but.

1:19:54 Speaker 1: There's this green one. And I was I must have touched this.

1:19:59 Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, sounds like you just sucked on a helium balloon. That's what it sounds like.

1:20:07 Speaker 1: Well, whatever, whatever, This is what happens when you do

1:20:14 Speaker 1: because I I I noticed the button was like lit up and I was like, wait a second, why is that? Why is that lit up like that? But yeah, that was pretty embarrassing. But when you don't have a producer that's listening and going, hey, dude, you sound like a goddamn chipmunk. She saw hooded.

1:20:34 Speaker 2: Little hooded guys. Yeah, hooded figures, little ones all around like little with She couldn't see their faces and they just like had capes and hoods on. And I'm like, I've never seen those guys before, so you can't blame me on that. I don't know what that ship's about. That. Yeah, And this is a gal who she had no no knowledge or even interest in UFO stuff back then when we met, but she thought it was interesting, and I mean, she knew me, and that's the same. That's the thing, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that are going to listen to me and have heard me for the last forty years and think bit's crazy.

1:21:15 Speaker 2: You know, Wow, she lost her mind. And you know what, that's fine. I understand and and you are entitled to your opinion. You don't know me, uh but I get it. It's okay. But I and I you know, I used to be a people pleaser and it used to really bother me and hurt my feelings with people thought I was lying because I didn't lie about anything and I didn't want to be thought of as a liar. But people did, you know, back in the day. But I felt like at now, I don't give a shit what people think. I am telling you my story and I'm trying to, you know, be clear when I'm telling you my opinion based upon you know, my things I saw.

1:22:00 Speaker 2: And the difference between my opinion and the facts is I know them. And all the people in my life that matter to me that I do care about what they think, they know the truth. They know me. You know. Here's an example. When I met my current husband thirty years ago, I felt like, Okay, I got to tell this guy about this weird shit. I'd gone on a date or two with him, and I'm like, I really like this guy, and you know, I would like for it to go further, but I this is kind of hard to hide. There's like a book written about my whole family, you know what I'm saying.

1:22:36 Speaker 2: So after like the third date, I gave him Bud's book Intruders, and I had already written the first book with my sister abducted. So I gave him these two books and I said, read this one first, and then read this one, and then if you still want to go out with me on that third or what or fourth date, call me. So he took him. He's like okay, So he took him home and he read them and I didn't hear from him for over a week, and I thought, damn it, I liked that one too. Oh well, you know, shit happens. I'll move on.

1:23:05 Speaker 2: But then the phone ring one day and it was him, and I thought, well, here we go. I said, well, so did you read the books? He goes, I did, and then he didn't say anything else. I'm like, oh shit, and I said, well what you think and he goes, well, I'll tell you. I feel like I know you well enough to know now that you're not a liar, and I don't think you're crazy. I really don't. So the only other option is something's happening to you and your family, and honestly, I want to know more. And I'm like, thank you Jesus you.

1:23:44 Speaker 2: And then you know, six months later we were married and we're going to be married thirty years this April. So wow. But so I'm so My point is people like the people like care Thank you, the people I care about, they know. So if you don't want to believe me, that's fine. Whatever makes you comfortable, that's fine.

1:24:04 Speaker 1: Well that's what I honestly find with most experiencers, you know, they the people that say that that that they're just past trying to convince anybody that their story is real.

1:24:22 Speaker 2: That you know, you've never been I have never my My whole goal has never been to try to convince people that I'm telling them the truth or tell my whole goal would be it was just to share what I remember and what I've seen that I just wanted people to know about it because I knew there were other people out there that knew that they'd had.

1:24:44 Speaker 1: It, right do you?

1:24:47 Speaker 2: Now?

1:24:48 Speaker 1: You you have been kind of if you want to call it a voice for experiencers, uh, with with what you've which with with which what you've done in talking to experiencers and kind of getting you know, a range of stories and experiences from people that confided in you. Would you think something that's talked about is this hybridization program taking eggs from women and you know, manipulating DNA. Is this something that you think could actually be happening. Is it something that you've heard.

1:25:33 Speaker 2: Of, Well, yeah, it's something I've heard of. I had a missing pregnancy that was pretty well documented in Intruders. I don't know why I told Bud about it to begin with. When I had that pregnancy disappear, we didn't speak about it for years in the family, and I went on to go ahead and marry the the fiance I had when I found out I was pregnant ahead and got married and then had two other kids. But for whatever reason, once I started to remember things in my past after I saw the mark in the yart on June thirtieth eighty three, that pregnancy came back to me.

1:26:17 Speaker 2: The memory of that and the memory of the events that happened prior to it, and it was something I couldn't stop think about or make go away. And then when Bud started the investigation, it might have been the second time he came to Indiana. I can't remember exactly when, but I had taken him to another home. I think it was in Greenfield, Indiana. There had been a similar event around the same time a few years before mine, I think. And then she had written to him, so I took him out there. I drove him out there to meet her and talk to them.

1:26:59 Speaker 2: And when we got home, I pulled him in the driveway and I remember I sat there for a minute and I looked at him and he I remember his face because he was looking at me, like what you know, And I said, you know, I had a pregnancy that disappeared, and I could see his face. He was like, what you know? And then he's like, well, I'm really sorry about that. I'm sorry to hear that. And then I busted out crying and I'm like, I have no idea why I said that to you. I feel like I'm more on right now. I feel like an idiot.

1:27:29 Speaker 2: I don't know why. And he took the information, and then when the book was written, he says he wanted to include that because I had I had a dream that I called a dream in November of the year before where I was with two other girls in a car out in the Boonies. We were stalking her boyfriend and we saw a UFO in the sky. I actually didn't remember it coming down to the ground. The girl driving actually did remember it coming down to the ground. I remembered our car being enveloped in this like black smokey missed and feeling as if I was being dragged out of the car by my feet.

1:28:11 Speaker 2: But and then I found out I was pregnant in like January of the following year. I had only I'd been with my boyfriend and we only had sex like on Christmas Eve, so I knew I know how I got pregnant, even though I was young, right, so I assumed it was his. And and then through a series of events, I went to the doctor and got the pregnancy confirmed. And then in March, I think it is in March, I had another dream where I saw the guys, the gray guys, and they did some kind of operation on me in some place I don't know how I got there.

1:29:00 Speaker 2: And I woke up. I was no longer on the couch, but I was on in my niece's bed. But in my mind when I woke up, the first thing I thought it, Oh my god, there's something wrong with my baby. I went to check and there was nothing going on down there, you know, and then went back to the got a pregnancy test and it was negative. Went back to the doctor and he gave me a pregnancy test and pelvic exam, and then he took my mom and me into his office and he says, we see this from time to time.

1:29:30 Speaker 2: You're young, you'll have other children. My suggestion to you is that you forget this ever happened. And I thought, I ain't never forget this. Even my mom said, well, does she need to have, you know, a DNC or something, you know, And he's like, no, there's nothing wrong with her. She's fine. So what the I mean? I know, well, I mean and this was forty How.

1:29:55 Speaker 1: Do you rationalize that though as a doctor saying.

1:29:59 Speaker 2: Well, he's I said that they already just forget about it. Well, first of all, this was in the seventies, but there was and I was a girl, right, I don't know. He said, we see this from time to time, and it happens. I didn't get any kind of a good explanation for it, but I wasn't about to confront him over it. Yeah, yeah, but I was a seventeen year old or well just turned eighteen year old. You know, girl in the seventies, you don't talk to men like that, especially a doctor.

1:30:35 Speaker 1: But you know, right right anyway, Yeah, that's a good place.

1:30:39 Speaker 2: And then I did also have a few dreams after that where I actually saw her with them and she was older, you know, And I always felt in my heart that that was my kid, even though I don't. I can't prove that, and it sounds like crazy shit, and I know that, I know it sounds crazy. But Bud started getting letters from women all over the place.

1:31:02 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you're not alone, you are far from it.

1:31:05 Speaker 2: So he starts showing me letters from people. And one thing I was concerned about is like, I've seen the headlines from weekly world news. You know, I had eight thousand alien babies and blah blah blah, b I'm not that girl. I got pregnant one time and it went away, it disappeared, and I don't know why. I'm not that girl, and I'm not going to be. I lost a baby period period, you know, all of the emotions that go along with that. I was dealing with you know, I didn't want to get pregnant, and when I found out I was, it was a shock to me and my boyfriend.

1:31:40 Speaker 2: And eventually we got used to the idea and started to love it, warm up to it, and then it goes away. You know. So I'm dealing with all that grief and loss, and so when you know, I didn't want to tell people about it publicly, and I'm like it, you know, I don't. It was embarrassing to me. It was hard, it hurt, it was embarrassing, and I just felt, you know, like I didn't want to add that. I didn't want that to be in the book. And Bud's like, look, here's all these letters, and he starts dumping these hundreds of letters on.

1:32:18 Speaker 2: He's like, there's other women out there that have been through this. They know there's a connection. I don't know what it is, but somehow there's a connection. And during that time that I saw that, like I said, when I saw the child older, remember when I told you earlier that I had a conversation of sorts with one of those creatures. That was when he told me this was good. He couldn't understand why I was angry because I wanted to take her home with me where she belonged, and he said, you can't feed her.

1:32:47 Speaker 2: She will die with you. I don't understand why you're so mad. This is a good thing. This is good for us, it's good for you. It's a good thing. And I'm like, I don't understand any of this, right, yeah.

1:33:01 Speaker 1: Ye, so, so so what do you what do you what do you take? What do you take from that that? What are they trying to blend in with us?

1:33:13 Speaker 2: I don't know. Here's these are theories of mine. They don't it's a theory. It's an idea. Doesn't mean shit. It's right, it's doesn't don't take it as fact because I don't know. After that conversation with him, and also later on, not just that one time I heard that disembodied voice, but I've had other times where I've had the lucid dreams where I've been told that the Gray guys are actually us in the future. My personal theory is they're trying to come back and fix something or modify something for themselves, frankly, but in a way for us, because they are they're.

1:34:00 Speaker 1: Us, right it almost yeah? Yeah, So it seems like and if you just take their appearance. It seems like they destroyed their atmosphere and or or or there was some sort of catagalismic event and something changes in us where I don't know.

1:34:24 Speaker 2: I don't know, And that's just my one contact. I mean, I've had contact with other things that look like people. You'd never know the difference. I've had weird things happen with what I thought were people, so uh and in retrospect pretty sure they weren't, but interesting. So but yeah, for just that, for the gray ones, and again that's just my yeah theory. It doesn't mean that's fact. I mean, it could be just some wild thing that my brain put together to make sense of everything. I don't know.

1:35:01 Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it's so far fetched to think, because I mean, if you look at if you look at the human and if you do you know, if you do believe in evolution as as a as a tool that that is used genetically to adapt to whatever in the future. I mean, we are the apex predator of the world. There is nothing that threatens us environmentally, so our next change wouldn't be like, you know, some some some sort of predatorial thing. It would probably be in our our consciousness or brain that would be.

1:35:48 Speaker 1: You know, our heads get bigger. We we nothing is attacking us. Our body gets a little bit more slender. It's it doesn't have to fend off attacks or or defend itself. I mean, we see the d genderification kind of happening right now.

1:36:05 Speaker 2: So if they live underground, they don't need as much light. Their eyes would be bigger, you know, in their eyes, right, I don't know, so it is.

1:36:13 Speaker 1: And my doctor Michael Masters, I don't know if you've heard of him, but I mean he he is one of the main purpose perpetuators or one of the main scholars that that really does think that this is these are future humans. This is all future humans. I don't necessarily subscribe to that, but it is what it is.

1:36:40 Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't think they all are, but I think there is some. I'm totally obsessed with time travel, by the way, And I had a dream that I met my great, great, great, great great like ten to the ends power grandson in a weird place. It was in the nineties, I think when I had early two thousand. When I had this dream, I wrote it down. I wrote the date down, but I woke up I woke up in this hospital and it was such a beautiful, bright, comfortable. The bed was comfortable, it like hugged you and you laid on it.

1:37:13 Speaker 2: The windows were huge, and the beautiful light was coming in and the outside was gorgeous. And I got up and I went to the bathroom and used the bathroom facilities and it was so high tech and like futuristic and very really neat. And I got back on the bed and then this young man walked in and he said, Hi, you're awake, and I said yeah, and he goes, how are you? And I'm telling you, I'm my fine. Who is this person? You know? And we have a conversation and he basically tells me that he's my grandson, only many times removed, you know, I mean into the future.

1:37:54 Speaker 2: And I said, really, why am I here? And he said I wanted to meet you and check on you. And I asked him about the toilet in the bed and he told me that the toilet, I know, I was fascinated with it. And he told me the toilet could tell him all about me, my health, could tell him what I needed more of in my diet, what I needed less of, what kind of things I had going on with my body. This toilet could tell him all kinds of things about my body when I used the toilet, and the bed was the same way. The bed could tell him different things about my body and my health.

1:38:31 Speaker 2: And I'm like, that's cool as shit, you know, And then I woke up that it was very very brief. See, I have weird These are the These are the lucid dreams that I have. Most of the time, I dream like everybody else, you know, an hour after I'm up, I don't even remember I dream. But every now and then, right the end of my sleep cycle, I have these incredible three D color visual I'm in them, dreams, uh that stick with me forever. And the longer I'm awake, the more detail I remember. And that was one of them, and.

1:39:07 Speaker 1: They become almost more like rather than dreams, they become memories.

1:39:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's so yeah there. I call them lucid dreams, you know what I mean? Because I can't prove their memories. I don't know, but I mean some of you are. You're still I still write it, yeah, I still write it down. I write them down in case my brain ever goes.

1:39:31 Speaker 1: To shit, right, you do you do have a family history with dementia, if I'm not mistaken.

1:39:38 Speaker 2: My dad had it and my sister has it, but she hers is because she's had like fifteen strokes. Ah, my dad's was. I don't know how and I do. I am followed by a neurologist because I have ocular migraines and I also have a condition called fibro muscular dysplasia in my arterial system that can like grow in my brain. It closes up your arteries. It actually closed up one of my kidneys, one of my renal arteries. They had to open it up with angioplusty. But it's it's genetic, uh, and you can't do anything about it except watch it.

1:40:13 Speaker 2: So I get MRAs and CTAs in my brain every five years, and I do have bright spots there, you know. But she tells me that that's normal for people my age.

1:40:28 Speaker 1: So right right right, I would say, you're I mean, and you look great for sixty sixty five?

1:40:34 Speaker 2: Uh, thank you, and yell, I'm older.

1:40:37 Speaker 1: You know, well, well you have you have energy in a in a demeanor of someone that is far younger.

1:40:45 Speaker 2: And it's because I'm so goofy I I act goofy when you're around me. Trust me?

1:40:51 Speaker 1: Well, shit, who cares? Right? Who cares?

1:40:55 Speaker 2: What if? What is life if you can't enjoy it and have a little fun even if you have.

1:41:00 Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about. We had a conversation and I can't I can't get into the specifics of why the conversation came up. But we're talking about Pasca Goula mm hm. And you knew Charlie? You knew did you know Charlie and Calvi?

1:41:23 Speaker 2: I knew Calvin and Charlie. I actually knew Calvin better than Charlie. I met cal I met Charlie a couple of times at conferences. And there's an I call I think it's an iconic picture actually because it's got Betty Hill and Charlie Hickson and and it's me, Betty Hill and Charlie Hickson sitting on a picnic. We're at some kind of think tank in Aspen, Colorado in the nineties. I think it was like ninety four or something. That's me and Calvin and Bud. I think we were in Florida at the time. Calvin and I. He's like, my, we have you ever met a person that you don't hardly talk to him very much at all.

1:42:05 Speaker 2: They lived somewhere else, but every time you get together, you're like.

1:42:10 Speaker 1: Past.

1:42:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, Calvin. Me and Calvin were like that. And his wife also went at and they last time I saw Calvin was at a conference. I think it was in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, might have it was either Eureka Springs or Penscole, I can't remember with but and I got a picture of it because he passed away maybe a couple of years after that. So and and his wife gave me a pair of ear rings that I still have. Uh, but they were both Charlie was. He was very I thought he was well spoken and very calm, you know, and very kind.

1:42:53 Speaker 2: He was a very kind and patient man with me and non John's metal, you know. And I heard him tell his story before for and it was always compelling and the details never changed. And as far as Calvin was concerned, Calvin was such a mild mannered guy, very sweet natured, who would give you the shirt off his back. He would give you the shirt off his back if you needed him for anything. And

1:43:21 Speaker 2: every time he told the story, you could almost watch him and it almost felt like he was reliving it again every time he told it. You know, you could feel his the way he felt that night and all that shit happened, and he was terrified. He was terrified. And I'll tell you of all of the UFO stories of the back in the day, of all of them, to me, Pascagoula is always going to be one of the strongest, just because I knew those guys, and I knew that they were telling the truth. You know. I feel so fortunate to have been able to meet them both, to spend time with them, especially especially Calvin.

1:44:05 Speaker 2: He was kind of like a He's kind of like a big brother to me. And this, Yeah, you're just the nicest man. He's just so kind. And he never sought out publicity, and he just.

1:44:17 Speaker 1: He ran from it.

1:44:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, he just wanted people to to listen to his story. You know.

1:44:23 Speaker 1: But and and and then that's again, you know, this, this Pastor Googla case means a lot to me. I can't explain why yet, but I've always had a fascination with that case. It's just in your opinion, in your like I said, in what with what you know, with what you saw the past, pascor Gula, you in your opinion, did it happen and is it being covered up? Is there a larger cover up of these incidents?

1:45:08 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think there's a larger cover up of all of these big incidences, and there always has been. And second of all, did it happen? Uh? Yeah, I feel very strongly that something extraordinary happened to these two men, something that they didn't understand, something scared the absolute shit out of them and changed them for their whole lives. Something that profound happened to these men. To me, there is no doubt about it, Absolutely no doubt about it.

1:45:41 Speaker 1: And you know, because there are similarities and stories of course, right floating like the now their beings are more robotic in but then they you know, once once we get to talk about the lady, she appears more humanoid. And again you've had interactions with what you say, Are they look just like us?

1:46:07 Speaker 2: Yep?

1:46:08 Speaker 1: So it seems like they have almost like an advanced artificial intelligence fused with like some sort of three D printed I don't know body that they can use robotics.

1:46:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the possibilities are endless. I feel like if you can imagine it in your mind, it exists somewhere. That's the way things are, you know.

1:46:31 Speaker 1: Exactly, Yeah, absolutely, so you know their abduction you know again, I think that is the part that people will always have the most trouble with. And you know, it sucks because it's kind of the last an experience. There is kind of like the last person now in this day and age that can say, you know, I was touched, I was taken and the police will kind of laugh at off right.

1:47:07 Speaker 2: No, not not anyone else in the.

1:47:09 Speaker 1: World could could walk into a police station and say that that they would not take seriously. But when you bring in this non human intelligence aspect, I mean, they're just like, yeah, I can't go there.

1:47:24 Speaker 3: Sorry, that's going to change, and mark my words, that is going to change, right Do you think I'm one hundred sure of that now?

1:47:34 Speaker 1: Something that was told to me a while back. God, I can't even remember how long ago is or who even told me this, But you said it as well. It was like you were getting ready for something, like you were like, there's a job that you're going to have in the future that well, what so and I And I'm kind of combining this with something that I think is happening because when you ask why because the New York Times article, Yeah, okay, right, it was big. It made people think the videos came out. But they could have just you know, let that simmer out and fade away and you know, just have it be another

1:48:26 Speaker 1: drop in the bucket for UFO people. But no, in twenty twenty they confirmed that they did have the program and then this kind of controlled disclosure starts. Do you think that they are letting us in because there's something coming? Could that be.

1:48:51 Speaker 2: Some sort of theory you mean they be in the government.

1:48:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, so or not? That not the government, because I think ninety nine point nine percent of people in government, they don't they just go to work their pension. They most of the time they want to do the right thing. But there's this deep state, right if you want to call it that, whatever it is, that the secret keepers quote unquote seem like they're drip feeding us information.

1:49:20 Speaker 2: I go over to the gatekeepers. Yeah, you know, because they're losing control, so they got to do something so they don't look like complete idiots. That's called cover your ass. Yes,

1:49:33 Speaker 2: you know, because at the end of the day, whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and they ain't gonna stop it. I'm just that's my gut feeling, and I feel like, yeah, cya time.

1:49:45 Speaker 1: Kids, Do you think we're ready?

1:49:51 Speaker 2: You know what, if we aren't ready by now, then we don't deserve whatever there is to come from it. I'm just saying, Uh, it's a good point. I am. I can't my observe. I am an observer of people, Okay, so I understand that I may see more than most people, but there are millions of people like me that can see. But hey, I always said I've gotten this message quote unquote before that when the world is new, it'll be for everyone, but not everyone will choose it. You have free will, Okay, So when things start changing, if people don't want to believe or see, then that's fine.

1:50:39 Speaker 2: They'll stay right where they are. But there's more and we're about to find out. Wow.

1:50:49 Speaker 1: You know one of these one of these things that gets thrown around is what this date. It's been mentioned by guys like Elizondo and others. David Grush even referred to it. It's kind of been passing. But then you know, cia guys like John Ramirez. I'm actually having Chris Bledsoe on the show on when this comes out. When this comes out, it'll be the next episode after this. I'm trying to like look forward into the future right now, and I can't do it. But yes, so I'm having blood so on, and I mean, it just seems like there's there's something on its either on its way or they've been you know, given a deadline like.

1:51:43 Speaker 2: Here, they've all it's always been here.

1:51:46 Speaker 1: Right, Like, get your people together. You need to let them know, like where coming, whether you like it or not.

1:51:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, there is no government on this planet that's gonna stop what's about to happen. And I'm not saying I'm trying to be I'm not trying to be an alarmist or anything like that, because I don't. I don't think. I don't feel anything negative for it. It's just different. And you know, but some people can't even good. Change is too hard for some people, right, it's all you know, And nothing stays the same forever. We have to for we have to remember that nothing ever, state, nothing lasts forever.

1:52:29 Speaker 2: Everything changes, right, you either learn to roll with it or you don't. I mean, the survivors are the ones that will adapt and adjust, and that's you know, and that's the part of yourself you have to tap into and just roll with it.

1:52:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't. I literally can't say it better. So, uh, we.

1:52:51 Speaker 2: Are we are, we are we all this time.

1:52:58 Speaker 1: We are going to start doing this segment to kind of keep things a little bit fresh and and fun. Uh. And I was thinking about I could I could remain doing the podcast because I'm a very serious person when it comes to interviewing and I want to make sure I keep that and but I also want to mix it up and have a little bit of fun. So I thought that you could be the first who does it does the segment with me. So I'm going to ask you four trivia questions about modern uiphology, and if you get all four right, I will send you a total disclosure shirt.

1:53:43 Speaker 1: You have you have to wear it, right, Yeah you can't. Just at least wear and take a picture send it to me so I can go. But if you get all four right, you get the shirt. If you don't, I'll probably still send you a shirt.

1:53:59 Speaker 2: But it's yeah, because I mean, I told you there's so many new names in this field anymore, I don't know who most people are.

1:54:08 Speaker 1: Well, here's what I did is I kind of so three of the questions kind of are centric to your case. I guess right. Then there's one that's not okay, So okay, here we go. Next up, we're gonna be playing uf O rivia. All right, Deb, The game works is such. I'm gonna ask you four questions you have you have to have a final answer on each and no phone of friends, nothing like that. You have as much time as needed. But I am going to ask that you don't use your phone.

1:54:55 Speaker 2: So what kind of thing of Okay, I'm gonna look at the camera.

1:55:00 Speaker 1: Yes, question number one. Bud Hopkins is considered a pioneer in UFO abduction research. What is the title of his nineteen eighty seven book that first brought national attention to the phenomenon of alien abduction.

1:55:17 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so bad. Intruders?

1:55:22 Speaker 1: Yes, of course, yes, the answer is, oh now, yeah, imagine you got the wrong I was like, this is a layup, but yes, intruders. The incredible visitations at Coppley Woods.

1:55:37 Speaker 2: All right.

1:55:38 Speaker 1: Second question, Deb Cobble's abduction experience was detailed in Bud hopkins book Intruders. What pseudonym did Bud Hopkins use for you in the book Kathy Davis. Correct. Correct, very very, very very proud of you. All right, all right, question number three. Your experience is often compared to other famous abduction cases, which nineteen seventy three UFO abduction, also in the state of Indiana's neighboring region, involved two men who claimed to be paralyzed and examined by beings with wrinkled skin.

1:56:22 Speaker 2: Pasca gula.

1:56:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so right now you're three. Are you ready for question number four?

1:56:35 Speaker 2: Lay it on me. Okay, I'll probably miss this one.

1:56:40 Speaker 1: What is the name of the Brazilian incident in nineteen ninety six were multiple witnesses, including locals and military personnel, reported seeing strange creatures and a crash UFO hint. It was a major James Fox documentary recently.

1:57:03 Speaker 2: I can't say the word. I always mispronounced bargas or something like. It starts with a V V. I don't know, I can't pronounce.

1:57:15 Speaker 1: You know what, I'm gonna give it to you because it's Virginia. Okay, Virginia. But there's so many people that that have that that same trouble you. I'm actually I'm very happy you got that question. So I so we'll talk.

1:57:33 Speaker 2: Obviously, I thought that was an interesting Yeah, that was an interesting story, and I saw most of the video.

1:57:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, congratulations. I don't know what button to hit. I don't know which one it is, Okay, is it the game?

1:57:55 Speaker 2: I used to have an airhorn. I used to annoy people with, well, you you.

1:58:00 Speaker 1: Are the first contestant and you are the first winner of Total Disclosure of trivia. So you'll get a total Disclosure shirt. I'll pay for it. I'll have the tent over to you. We'll talk off here about that. Thank you so much for doing that. By the way, you're welcome. It's kind of goofy, but I had fun kind of to wrap up here. What's next for you? I mean, are there any new projects on the horizon, appearances, you know, collaborations of the works.

1:58:32 Speaker 2: Right now, I'm on the UFO investigating unknown and I have been asked to speak at the move On International move On Symposium in July Yeaving in Kentucky, So I'm going to be speaking there. My talk will be centered around my June thirtieth eighty three incident and the investigation that Bud did on that.

1:59:02 Speaker 1: So that's so funny because I am going to be Rod James asked me to help film that, oh that three day symposium, So so.

1:59:12 Speaker 2: We'll get to meet in person.

1:59:13 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And actually that's awesome because I would love to interview you as we talked about for something else, So I think that might be an opportunity if oh god, it just hit puberty.

1:59:34 Speaker 2: Oh lord, So I'm gonna I keep my I'm still an administrator of the zero Midwest support group Facebook page, and I still do my website, Deb's home dot com and uh, you know, I've got the books there. And then my buddy Greg and I we do Midwest Para Talk radio live stream on YouTube and then uploaded later to all the podcast platforms. And that that's it on Thursday nights at nine pm Eastern Standard time.

2:00:09 Speaker 1: Awesome.

2:00:09 Speaker 2: And then also I co host it's a Facebook blog show with Mary Bassett, Dana Stricker, and Devin R. J Derus called uh Voices of Contact. It's an interesting show where we we listened to hypno therapy hypnosis tapes of the individuals with their permission, and then we we talk about the things that they remembered and what it could mean.

2:00:41 Speaker 1: So all right, that's interesting.

2:00:43 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I stay busy.

2:00:46 Speaker 1: It sounds like it. And and you're, like you said, you're You're someone who I think experiencers can go to and kind of it talked to and not be subject to ridicule because.

2:00:58 Speaker 2: Oh no, Yeah, they can write to me through my website. I get letters all the time from people that write to me through the website and just want to share their story with me. And what, you know, what, what you share with me stays with me. I just want to be there and be available.

2:01:14 Speaker 1: For well, all the links, Yeah, I'll grab all the links from you and I will include them in the description below. So for anyone who wants to follow Dev's work and tune into one of the various shows, check out our website, maybe even report your own experience, all those links will be in the description below. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. You are absolutely amazing and I really look forward to having future conversations with you. Maybe not in a chipmunk voice for half of it, so that would always be great.

2:01:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for doing this.

2:01:54 Speaker 2: And thanks for asking me. I appreciate it.

2:01:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we will catch you on the flip side. And for everyone who is watching listening, I want to say thank you. You can hang around after the credits roll, we'll say our party words. Guys. Make sure I like, share, subscribe, and if you're listening out one of those amazing podcast platforms you can review the show, follow and rate it. It really helps. It's all free, and if you want to help support monetarily, there's many ways you can do that, mainly become a member on YouTube. It really helps as well getting me to places and so I can keep continuing to make the content as best possible.

2:02:35 Speaker 1: With that being said, we'll see you on the other side and

2:03:18 Speaker 2: S