New England's Darkest Secrets: Cryptids, Haunted Roads, & The Bridgewater Triangle with Peter Muise

0:00 Speaker 1: What is it about stories? As humans? We are fundamentally

0:16 Speaker 1: driven by stories. Since the very first time that we

0:20 Speaker 1: gathered around a fire, we've been whispering about the shadows

0:24 Speaker 1: dancing just beyond the light, that right alongside the world

0:29 Speaker 1: of the living, there is a parallel reality, a world

0:33 Speaker 1: of non human entities and what we call unexplained phenomena.

0:39 Speaker 1: We want so desperately to believe that we aren't alone,

0:44 Speaker 1: but we're also terrified of that notion itself. Now. I

0:48 Speaker 1: grew up a stone's throw from Dudley Road in bill Reckam, Massachusetts.

0:55 Speaker 1: If you know that road, then you know it. It

0:59 Speaker 1: isn't just a street or an eerie corner. It feels

1:03 Speaker 1: like a boundary line between our everyday world and something else.

1:08 Speaker 1: Living in New England means living on top of centuries

1:12 Speaker 1: of ghost stories, cryptids, and the general unexplained. It's in

1:18 Speaker 1: our blood. But where does the myth end and terrifying

1:22 Speaker 1: reality begin. I've seen first hand that it's closer than

1:27 Speaker 1: you could ever possibly imagine.

1:29 Speaker 2: If UFOs are a thing, I don't think they're from

1:32 Speaker 2: another planet. I think it is more of a spiritual,

1:35 Speaker 2: psychic whatever thing. Their shape is very suggestive of like

1:39 Speaker 2: religious imagery. Right, the sphere, the orb, the halo, like

1:43 Speaker 2: all of it's very like religious. Look at Carly Jung

1:46 Speaker 2: talking about UFOs is a symbol of the soul. All

1:48 Speaker 2: these things. I will tell you. I once had a

1:52 Speaker 2: dream when I was I was an adult, when I

1:54 Speaker 2: had to stream where I was you like the stream.

1:57 Speaker 2: I was walking down the street and I was sucked

1:59 Speaker 2: up backwards. It's into this large cubical, cubic like structure

2:04 Speaker 2: floating in the sky. And I was sucked up into

2:06 Speaker 2: the bottom of into this giant room, and inside was

2:08 Speaker 2: like a large human, like a large muscular human, and

2:11 Speaker 2: then like sasquatch inside this flying object. And I walked

2:15 Speaker 2: up like wh On.

2:17 Speaker 1: This episode, join me as we tug on the thread

2:21 Speaker 1: between the known and the unknown. My guest is Peter

2:25 Speaker 1: Muse is an author, the creator of the long standing

2:29 Speaker 1: New England Folklore blog, and a man who has quite

2:32 Speaker 1: literally written the book on these mysteries, including incredible deep

2:37 Speaker 1: doves into regional legends. Let's map out dark from the

2:41 Speaker 1: bizarre high strangeness of the Bridgewater Triangle to the creeping

2:46 Speaker 1: dread of the Salem Witch Trials. Cryptids Haunted stretches of asphalt,

2:51 Speaker 1: and the very real possibility that the things that lurk

2:56 Speaker 1: in the shadows of night, well they might just be

2:58 Speaker 1: looking right back at us places like the Marianas Trench.

3:02 Speaker 1: So to say that we know it's not I think

3:06 Speaker 1: is very very It's what the humans love to do

3:11 Speaker 1: because we hate the fear of the unknown. This is

3:14 Speaker 1: total disclosure.

3:51 Speaker 3: M m H.

4:47 Speaker 1: Today, we welcome mister Peter muse. How you doing today, Peter.

4:51 Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here, Tyler. Very excited weird things

4:54 Speaker 2: with you today.

4:55 Speaker 1: Well, what I usually don't get to do often is

4:59 Speaker 1: talk about my own backyard, right, And I think we

5:01 Speaker 1: said I said this to the on the phone to

5:03 Speaker 1: you is that's what I was really excited about. Is

5:07 Speaker 1: you're not really like an You're not an experiencer per se.

5:11 Speaker 1: You're more of an investigator of researcher, historian into the

5:17 Speaker 1: stories that i've you know, my mythologized to England.

5:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think to myself, maybe as a story collector,

5:26 Speaker 2: I like to collect the stories as many versions as

5:29 Speaker 2: I can, just tell all these different stories.

5:30 Speaker 3: Yeah.

5:31 Speaker 1: So I mean, first off, I got to ask what

5:33 Speaker 1: got you into this collecting these types of stories that

5:38 Speaker 1: are off the beaten path, or you know, local to

5:41 Speaker 1: this place, in this place, what sparked your interests there?

5:44 Speaker 2: I think, you know, it comes from a bunch of

5:48 Speaker 2: different places. When I was a kid, I grew up

5:50 Speaker 2: in the seventies. I was born in late sixties, grew

5:51 Speaker 2: up in the seventies. In the nineteen seventies, there was

5:53 Speaker 2: a lot of this resurgence or interest in paranormal things

5:56 Speaker 2: suddenly appeared. They didn't call it paranormal then, but things

5:59 Speaker 2: like the In Search of show with Leonard nimoy I

6:01 Speaker 2: came on. When I was a kid, there were movies

6:03 Speaker 2: like In Search of Bigfoot, in Search of Noah's Ark,

6:05 Speaker 2: which I saw, which is not a great movie, but

6:07 Speaker 2: I saw it as a kid. So that was sort

6:09 Speaker 2: of in the media at the time. Bigfoot started to

6:11 Speaker 2: appear a lot in TV shows like The Bionic Man

6:14 Speaker 2: had a bionic Bigfoot appear in one of the shows.

6:16 Speaker 2: So Bigfoot started to appear. And I had an older brother.

6:19 Speaker 2: I still have an older brother who was really into

6:22 Speaker 2: like UFOs and that sort of stuff, and so I

6:26 Speaker 2: absorbed some of it from him because he had like

6:29 Speaker 2: the books that I was maybe too young to buy.

6:31 Speaker 2: But he had like these creepy books by Arthur C. Clark,

6:33 Speaker 2: Abou Arthur C. Clarke, Mysterious, Universal this stuff. So that

6:36 Speaker 2: was one way it kind of came from, like just

6:38 Speaker 2: being a kid in the seventies Atlantis, the Bermuda Triangle.

6:41 Speaker 2: Like when I was a kid, everybody was very concerned

6:43 Speaker 2: about the Bermuda Triangle and somehow it's not a big

6:46 Speaker 2: thing these days, right, but the time, everyone was afraid,

6:48 Speaker 2: you're I would disappear. I was very afraid I would

6:49 Speaker 2: disappear into Bermuda Triangle somehow when I was a kid,

6:51 Speaker 2: though I never went to Bermuda, so that was one stream.

6:56 Speaker 2: I think. I also was really into like mythology and

6:58 Speaker 2: folklore as a kid, like mythology, Norse mythology, you know

7:02 Speaker 2: the mythology books for kids there out at the time,

7:07 Speaker 2: And so I sort of when I went to college,

7:09 Speaker 2: I got a degree in anthropology because it was really

7:11 Speaker 2: interested sort of that folklore mythology aspect of things. And

7:15 Speaker 2: it's only really when I was out of college and

7:17 Speaker 2: living in Boston did I realize that I didn't know

7:19 Speaker 2: much about the actual mythology and folklore of the place.

7:21 Speaker 2: I lived my whole life, right, you said, in our backyard.

7:23 Speaker 2: So I did not really know much about the mythology

7:26 Speaker 2: of the place I lived really since I was a kid.

7:29 Speaker 2: So I just started to investigate, like what stories could

7:31 Speaker 2: I find? And I've just been doing it ever since.

7:35 Speaker 2: I've been writing my blog for about I think it's

7:37 Speaker 2: eighteen years and I've writing that blog. And I started

7:39 Speaker 2: out doing it every week when I first started, and

7:41 Speaker 2: I'd do it maybe once a month. But it's been

7:43 Speaker 2: eighteen years.

7:44 Speaker 1: Wow, wow, And yeah, I have the link for I'll

7:47 Speaker 1: put that link for your blog in the description blow

7:50 Speaker 1: for anyone wants to check it out, because I think

7:51 Speaker 1: it's amazing. I grew up next to Dudley Road. Yeah yeah,

7:57 Speaker 1: right next to Bill Rica. Yeah. So you know, whether

8:00 Speaker 1: we want to say or we want to agree with

8:03 Speaker 1: what the story is, take that part out for now,

8:07 Speaker 1: whether whether it is true or not. I grew up

8:11 Speaker 1: right next to it, and it was something that was

8:14 Speaker 1: passed down like generationally right right, And it was almost

8:19 Speaker 1: like in a weird way, it was almost like Santa Claus.

8:22 Speaker 1: Like my parents would use it as like a don't

8:25 Speaker 1: be bad, right, don't be bad, or we'll take you

8:27 Speaker 1: to Deadly Road and leave you at the nuns and

8:30 Speaker 1: like that was enough, man, because it was. It freaked

8:33 Speaker 1: us out. But for people who don't know the Dudley

8:35 Speaker 1: Roads story, we'll probably get into that because yeah.

8:38 Speaker 2: I mean we might not tell it right now. It's

8:39 Speaker 2: a good story.

8:40 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean I grew up right next to it.

8:42 Speaker 1: I grew up literally, like I could hit it with

8:45 Speaker 1: a stone from where I grew up. And the Dudley

8:49 Speaker 1: Road story, I mean, she would be the story telling.

8:51 Speaker 2: I mean, the Deadly Road story is that in sometime

8:53 Speaker 2: in the nineteenth century, these nuns who are in a

8:56 Speaker 2: convent near Dudley Road were kind of bored with being

8:59 Speaker 2: good Catholic nuns kind of decide to experiment with a

9:01 Speaker 2: little bit of Satanism and black magic and witchcraft, and

9:06 Speaker 2: so in particular, they would leave the convent at night

9:09 Speaker 2: and go to this particular house on Dadley Road where

9:11 Speaker 2: they would conduct their satanic rituals, and the neighbors could

9:13 Speaker 2: hear them chanting and all this stuff, and supposedly the

9:16 Speaker 2: house where they were doing their magic was slowly sinking

9:20 Speaker 2: into the earth because it's so weighted down with evil rights.

9:24 Speaker 2: Like you can see the house sinking to the earth.

9:27 Speaker 2: So the story goes on to say that the neighbors

9:29 Speaker 2: in that area were not happy about these satanic nuns.

9:32 Speaker 2: You know, they're intolerant, I guess or whatever, and so

9:34 Speaker 2: they I know, those nuns, so they hanged them from

9:39 Speaker 2: a tree. And the ghosts of the nuns supposedly haunt

9:42 Speaker 2: the road to this day and and other things let

9:45 Speaker 2: people see other ghostly figures there also, And so the

9:49 Speaker 2: story about the nuns is not true. I mean, no

9:52 Speaker 2: one was hanged nuns in bill Ricca in the nineteenth century.

9:55 Speaker 2: I mean, the convent is real. I think it's now

9:57 Speaker 2: just a religious retreat center, but it's there, and the

10:00 Speaker 2: that they supposed to be conducted their rituals in is

10:02 Speaker 2: there also. But it's really not a house that's sinking

10:06 Speaker 2: into there. It's just a house that was built with

10:08 Speaker 2: very low walls. It's sort of like a storage building.

10:10 Speaker 2: It's not a full house. But if you look at

10:12 Speaker 2: it quickly, you can see, oh, okay, it looks like

10:14 Speaker 2: it's going into the earth, but it's not really the case.

10:16 Speaker 1: On the surface. Like it's driving past it on a

10:19 Speaker 1: Halloween night, which is when most people travel to Dudley Roads.

10:23 Speaker 1: You know, it's a pretty and it's a pretty crappy road.

10:26 Speaker 2: It's not country road.

10:28 Speaker 1: It used to be dirt, but they've since paved it.

10:31 Speaker 1: But the paved they've paved it once. Yeah, and it's

10:34 Speaker 1: just like you go down it and you're like this

10:36 Speaker 1: the whole time and you're just rocking back and forth.

10:39 Speaker 1: But I've had some weird experiences down there. What I

10:43 Speaker 1: will say about the house that's sinking is you're right.

10:45 Speaker 1: It was built into a hill, like it was built

10:48 Speaker 1: into a The land was like wavy. It's it's very

10:55 Speaker 1: very suburban, you know, farm farmland, horses around there. So

11:02 Speaker 1: it was the way that they built house. And even

11:04 Speaker 1: as a kid, part of that story never fit to

11:07 Speaker 1: me because if I was a nun, and I think

11:10 Speaker 1: I said this to you on the phone, if I

11:12 Speaker 1: was a nun, you're married to God, right, what's the ultimate.

11:17 Speaker 2: Treason cheating on God?

11:20 Speaker 1: I get cheating on God, specifically with the devil right

11:24 Speaker 1: and black magic. And if I was doing that as

11:26 Speaker 1: a nun, I wouldn't go to a house that they

11:29 Speaker 1: could see from the retreat. I would disappear into the woods, right,

11:35 Speaker 1: and I would conduct to my witchcraft there, so the

11:42 Speaker 1: legend lives on, right right. I disagree a little bit

11:48 Speaker 1: with you. I don't think that it didn't happen. I

11:51 Speaker 1: think something happened something. I'm not quite sure exactly what

11:57 Speaker 1: it was. I think it involved none, but again, who

12:02 Speaker 1: you know. I've interviewed so many people.

12:04 Speaker 2: And also will say I think that the people who

12:06 Speaker 2: live on Dudley Road probably wouldn't even want us to

12:09 Speaker 2: talk about it because I think they sometimes they get

12:11 Speaker 2: tired of tourists.

12:11 Speaker 1: And people like I've had a gun pulled on me.

12:13 Speaker 2: Yes, clearly, Like I'm not telling people to go to

12:15 Speaker 2: Dudley Road.

12:16 Speaker 1: But yeah, don't go, don't go. H the gentleman pulled

12:19 Speaker 1: a gun on me the last times I was there. Yeah,

12:22 Speaker 1: he didn't pull it on me, but he showed it

12:24 Speaker 1: to me that he had it, and I was like,

12:26 Speaker 1: all right, dude, and we get it. Yeah. Looking into him,

12:28 Speaker 1: by the way, interesting interesting character, interesting character, that guy.

12:34 Speaker 1: But again I found things in the woods that quite

12:38 Speaker 1: don't quite make sense. I explored that area so heavily

12:45 Speaker 1: as a child, and that is what kind Dudley Road.

12:47 Speaker 1: And the reason I bring it up is that's part

12:50 Speaker 1: of a big part of why I do this, which

12:55 Speaker 1: I didn't really think about because I always thought it

12:57 Speaker 1: was just my UFO siding and my mom's death. Those

13:00 Speaker 1: are the two catalysts. But Dudley Rowe was a huge part.

13:04 Speaker 1: Me and my friends, we'd always be down there and

13:07 Speaker 1: we did see some weird stuff. I've interviewed people that

13:12 Speaker 1: have have no reason to lie, right, and they've seen

13:16 Speaker 1: weird stuff. So is it almost like we cursed the

13:21 Speaker 1: land by believing it's cursed.

13:24 Speaker 2: I've always worked. I always believe people's experiences, like people

13:30 Speaker 2: do have weird experiences all the time, Like, yeah, everyone

13:32 Speaker 2: has weird experience and everyone a lot of people are

13:34 Speaker 2: weird experiences and those experiences are true, Like you actually

13:36 Speaker 2: have these experiences. I guess where I have some skepticism.

13:40 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just the explanation, Like you have these legends

13:42 Speaker 2: about these places, which you look into the history of

13:44 Speaker 2: the town, you'll see that's not quite true, right, Like

13:49 Speaker 2: no nuns were murdered, no nuns were hanged, nothing of that.

13:51 Speaker 2: The house was built that way. On record, we'll sound record, right,

13:54 Speaker 2: there's no proof, there's no physical proof.

13:55 Speaker 1: Right, but the house part is yeah.

13:58 Speaker 2: Undred percent, and so but still people go there will

14:01 Speaker 2: have this strange experience. So like, is it the something

14:05 Speaker 2: in the land that makes you have the experience? Is

14:06 Speaker 2: it just something in you that allows you to have

14:09 Speaker 2: its experience, something in your mind or whatever, and you're

14:12 Speaker 2: open suddenly to like whatever.

14:13 Speaker 1: I think there's a huge element to that. Have you

14:17 Speaker 1: ever heard of a tulpa? So it's something that's created

14:20 Speaker 1: by belief in it, right, So I think there might

14:26 Speaker 1: be an element there to that and to a lot

14:28 Speaker 1: of these places, at least hot spots where the paranormal,

14:33 Speaker 1: the otherworldly, the just the mystical seem to converge on

14:40 Speaker 1: these places. And I think there is an element to

14:44 Speaker 1: how people react or think about that place that does

14:48 Speaker 1: play a part in what they experience when they're there.

14:52 Speaker 2: And I think you could be right. And I also

14:54 Speaker 2: think often even just like suddenly that place has a

14:57 Speaker 2: reputation like suddenly, oh Deadley Roads on Hunt Place, more

15:00 Speaker 2: people go to Dudley Road, and then for more people

15:02 Speaker 2: to talk about Douadley Road, more people talk about the

15:04 Speaker 2: experiences they have, then more people go to Dudley Road.

15:06 Speaker 2: So kind of the snowballs. So you have certain places

15:08 Speaker 2: where all the attention gets focused, like Dudley Road, or

15:11 Speaker 2: of course like the Bridgewater Triangle here or those you know,

15:15 Speaker 2: various places. When I was a kid, was the Bermuda Triangle,

15:17 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So it's like these certain

15:19 Speaker 2: places get all the attention, and the more attention you

15:22 Speaker 2: pay to the space, the more weird things you're gonna notice.

15:25 Speaker 1: So that story from your childhood, the one about the

15:28 Speaker 1: Bermuda Triangle, Yeah, I'm sure you looked into it. The

15:32 Speaker 1: Bermuda Triangle. I mean, it is a weird place.

15:35 Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's a weird place. I just don't think

15:38 Speaker 2: when we were younger, it would just really push like, oh,

15:42 Speaker 2: all the planes, all the boats that go through the

15:44 Speaker 2: Bermuda Triangle disappear, like a higher rate of disappearents there.

15:47 Speaker 2: There are movies about it, right, horror movies about the

15:49 Speaker 2: Bermuda Triangle, and I've seen something. They're actually kind of spooky.

15:52 Speaker 2: But I don't think the percentage of boats or plans

15:55 Speaker 2: that disappear there is actually any higher. Like someone somehow

15:59 Speaker 2: thought it was the case, but it didn't turn out

16:00 Speaker 2: to be the case.

16:01 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, when you're only focusing on missing ships, right, right, yeah,

16:05 Speaker 1: you're you're gonna find I mean, I see what you're saying,

16:10 Speaker 1: But I mean there are a lot of weird documented

16:14 Speaker 1: ships that have gone missing, planes that I've gone missing,

16:18 Speaker 1: that have gone through that area, which I do find in.

16:21 Speaker 1: Like again, maybe Bermuda Triangle is like overplaying it, but

16:26 Speaker 1: what is it about that area that has this happened

16:29 Speaker 1: in the first place? I mean, do you know how

16:31 Speaker 1: offhand how many ships actually have gone missing down I

16:35 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe someone can look it up.

16:37 Speaker 2: Just it was interesting me. That was very That was

16:39 Speaker 2: a really big topic when I was younger, and now

16:41 Speaker 2: it's not a big topic, Like no one talks about

16:43 Speaker 2: it as much to talk about others like oh, Skinwalker

16:45 Speaker 2: Ranch or Bridgewater Triangle or something like that, but not

16:49 Speaker 2: so much Bermuda Triangle.

16:50 Speaker 1: It's right, right, What do you think the difference between

16:54 Speaker 1: folklore and the like paranormal investigation is? Oh?

16:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean folklore. Yeah, that's a hard word to

17:03 Speaker 2: define for me, but I will say it's like for me,

17:06 Speaker 2: like folkalos are the story that people tell about places,

17:09 Speaker 2: but they don't necessarily always have to believe the story,

17:12 Speaker 2: right Like you people may say, oh, yeah, Dudley Road

17:14 Speaker 2: is haunted, or they may say people say Dudley Road

17:18 Speaker 2: is haunted, right, right, but they don't necessarily go there

17:21 Speaker 2: to experience the haunting versus people now like the legend

17:25 Speaker 2: trippers or people want to go to a place to

17:28 Speaker 2: actually experience it themselves. A different thing, right, So it's

17:32 Speaker 2: sort of like, Oh, Dudley Road, my aunt says some

17:37 Speaker 2: nuns were hanged there and they come back as ghosts, versus, Oh,

17:40 Speaker 2: Dudley Road. I went there at midnight with my friends

17:43 Speaker 2: and we saw the ghost of a nun.

17:45 Speaker 1: Right.

17:45 Speaker 2: It's like somebody said it versus I'm trying to experience

17:48 Speaker 2: that ghost myself. Like that's the difference.

17:50 Speaker 1: I forgot that there was one thing about Dolly Road.

17:52 Speaker 1: I forgot to tell you. I don't think I've ever

17:54 Speaker 1: said this on camera.

17:55 Speaker 2: Yep.

17:56 Speaker 1: Oh there was one night, and I have several witnesses

18:02 Speaker 1: to this, several which I can call right now. I'm

18:06 Speaker 1: not sure if they answered, but I could call them.

18:10 Speaker 1: We were exploring the woods, ye random night, not Halloween,

18:15 Speaker 1: because we were there all year round and we were

18:19 Speaker 1: in the woods in it. I've been there since, and

18:23 Speaker 1: like the people that hike those woods, they'll tell you

18:27 Speaker 1: don't be in here after dark. The woods seem to

18:29 Speaker 1: turn your turn, play tricks on you, right, People get

18:33 Speaker 1: lost in the woods even though they're they know them

18:36 Speaker 1: like the back of their hands. Like trails seem to

18:38 Speaker 1: switch like a train track switches, you know, you know

18:41 Speaker 1: how a train track will like the go over to

18:44 Speaker 1: the other track. It's almost like that. And we were

18:48 Speaker 1: back there one night and I don't mean to point

18:50 Speaker 1: it to you, but something, Yeah, witchcraft, get them get

18:57 Speaker 1: We have another room for that. It's downstairs. But the dungeon.

19:02 Speaker 1: We were back there and we me and my friend

19:05 Speaker 1: and one other we came across this really dilapidated house

19:10 Speaker 1: and it was in the middle of the woods. It

19:12 Speaker 1: didn't seem like anything crazy, just like a shack. But

19:17 Speaker 1: once we left it, I've never since found it, and

19:22 Speaker 1: no one, nobody agrees with me that there's a house

19:27 Speaker 1: back there. Yeah, everyone who goes there or knows the

19:30 Speaker 1: woods is like, there's nothing. There's nothing like that. The

19:33 Speaker 1: only thing is the convent, right, And they were like,

19:36 Speaker 1: maybe you came across someone's shed and you just didn't know.

19:40 Speaker 1: But I know where I was that night. We were

19:42 Speaker 1: in the middle of the thicket. Right, and then a

19:45 Speaker 1: house was there, and then it wasn't right. So again,

19:50 Speaker 1: and I think preparing for this conversation has brought a

19:53 Speaker 1: lot of that those random nights out there, right, and

19:59 Speaker 1: I can never I've never found that house again.

20:02 Speaker 2: It's very weird. It's weird. It is weird. I will

20:05 Speaker 2: say that you go out in the woods around here,

20:07 Speaker 2: and for people who are not from Massachusetts, New England

20:10 Speaker 2: may not know this, but like right now Massachusetts like

20:14 Speaker 2: covered by like seventy percent tree covers something like, it's

20:18 Speaker 2: very heavily forested, Massachusetts, heavily populated. Most at heavily forest

20:22 Speaker 2: It's like either a house or it's a tree, right,

20:24 Speaker 2: pretty much. But in the past, this was all farmlands.

20:27 Speaker 2: All the cheese were chopped down, this is all rolling

20:30 Speaker 2: farmland whatever, until maybe mid nineteenth century, you mid eighteen hundreds,

20:35 Speaker 2: where people realized there was better farming elsewhere, so people

20:38 Speaker 2: started to go to New York, Ohio whatever. And also

20:41 Speaker 2: people start to move from the farms into the mill

20:43 Speaker 2: towns like Heyroll, Lawrence, Lowell, places like that, New Bedford whatever, right,

20:47 Speaker 2: and so these farms became abandoned. So if you go

20:49 Speaker 2: out in the woods now here you will find like

20:52 Speaker 2: cellar holes. Maybe you'll find the old walls everywhere, Maybe

20:55 Speaker 2: find old cemeteries just in the middle of the woods,

20:57 Speaker 2: because these used to be farms ville whatever that just

21:00 Speaker 2: now have been overtaken by the woods. You know you're

21:03 Speaker 2: telling me that story reminds me of this story that

21:06 Speaker 2: I had my book which is in Warlocks and Massachusetts,

21:09 Speaker 2: where it's about a woman named Caroline Howard King. It's

21:14 Speaker 2: from the nineteenth century. She was a wealthy woman from Salem.

21:17 Speaker 2: She wrote this great book called When We Lived in Salem.

21:19 Speaker 2: It's like her memories of her childhood. So her family

21:22 Speaker 2: lived in Salem at the time, and they decided to go.

21:24 Speaker 2: They used to vacation in Beverly, Massachusetts. That which it's

21:28 Speaker 2: not like you feel it now. It's like ten miles away,

21:30 Speaker 2: but at the time it was like imagine that you

21:32 Speaker 2: didn't have a car or anything. It's like it was

21:34 Speaker 2: a lot longer trips. They go from Salem to Beverly.

21:36 Speaker 2: Had this house in Beverly on the on the beach,

21:39 Speaker 2: and where they lived in Beverly was an area called

21:42 Speaker 2: Witches Woods. And all the neighbors who lived there said, oh,

21:46 Speaker 2: you know these woods are haunted. It is like they

21:48 Speaker 2: said there was a headless ghost, et cetera in these woods,

21:51 Speaker 2: which is woods, wood witch is woods. And they said

21:56 Speaker 2: there was a haunted farmhouse in these woods, the called

22:00 Speaker 2: the Homestead. And so one day Caroline Howard King and

22:05 Speaker 2: her cousin and their maid go for walking the woods.

22:08 Speaker 2: So they walking through the woods, are gonna go have

22:09 Speaker 2: a picnic whatever. They kind of get a little bit lost,

22:13 Speaker 2: and they find this abandoned farm. They find like a

22:15 Speaker 2: cellar hole and like the doorstep and like all these

22:18 Speaker 2: overgrown big lilac bushes and a like a un abandoned chimney. Now,

22:22 Speaker 2: and they think, oh, is this the homestead?

22:24 Speaker 1: Right?

22:25 Speaker 2: Is this the haunted farm? But there's nothing happening, So

22:28 Speaker 2: they wander on. They walk up to the top of

22:29 Speaker 2: this hill trying to find their way back to the

22:31 Speaker 2: beach where they're staying. They look down where they had

22:34 Speaker 2: just been, where the abandoned farm was, and they see

22:36 Speaker 2: a house and it's inhabited. It has a roof, there's

22:40 Speaker 2: smoke coming out of the chimneys, it has walls. They

22:43 Speaker 2: see a woman come out and she spreads like chicken

22:45 Speaker 2: feet on the front stoop and it has these little

22:47 Speaker 2: lilac bushes, and they're like, oh, this is a little freaky, right,

22:51 Speaker 2: this is a little freaky for us, And so the

22:53 Speaker 2: two girls stay up the top of the maid goes

22:55 Speaker 2: down to try to see, like, oh, maybe the woman

22:56 Speaker 2: of that house can tell us how to get back

22:58 Speaker 2: to the beach. Well, obviously, is it not gonna happen.

23:01 Speaker 2: She goes back down to the farmhouse and there's nobody there.

23:03 Speaker 2: It's abandoned farmhouse. Again. It's just like a cellar hole,

23:07 Speaker 2: a chimney, you know, the big giant lilac bushes, and

23:10 Speaker 2: that nobody's there, and so the maid is freaked out.

23:12 Speaker 2: She goes back to the top of the hills. She's like,

23:14 Speaker 2: you know, there's no farmhouse there, it's just a ruin.

23:17 Speaker 2: And they realize that this is the haunted farmhouse that

23:19 Speaker 2: they've heard about in witch Is Woods. And somehow it

23:21 Speaker 2: is if you want to think about it's like almost

23:23 Speaker 2: a drift in time somehow, right. It's like they're seeing

23:26 Speaker 2: the past, but it's not really there. And so they're

23:29 Speaker 2: all really freaked out, and they managed to finally find

23:32 Speaker 2: like a stream. They follow the streaming it leads to

23:34 Speaker 2: the ocean there go back home and so whoa and yeah,

23:38 Speaker 2: it's in her book and just in her membery. She

23:40 Speaker 2: just tossed it out there, like and here's something where

23:42 Speaker 2: that happened. I was like fourteen blah blah blah blah blah,

23:45 Speaker 2: and she just like, it's just a story in the

23:48 Speaker 2: Bostor in the book. Yeah. And so she was friends

23:50 Speaker 2: with the famous writer James Russell Lowell I think his

23:54 Speaker 2: name was, and he later wrote about this and claimed

23:57 Speaker 2: it had happened to him, but she's like, no, it

23:59 Speaker 2: didn't happen to him, it happened at me in her book.

24:01 Speaker 1: So essentially, if I'm getting this correct, they walk down,

24:08 Speaker 1: they come upon the homestead or the farmstead right, it's

24:13 Speaker 1: in ruins. They get back to the hill, they look

24:16 Speaker 1: back down and it's almost like they're seeing back into

24:20 Speaker 1: the past and there's this ripple this, you know, whatever,

24:25 Speaker 1: there's ripping. Let's I mean, if it's true. If it's true,

24:29 Speaker 1: it begs the question because I've heard this type of

24:32 Speaker 1: story before too. This is not an uncompion.

24:34 Speaker 2: I've heard people like farmhouse in Vermont somewhere to every

24:38 Speaker 2: well also just.

24:38 Speaker 1: People walking and then all of a sudden, they're they're

24:42 Speaker 1: they're like in the past, and then they're freaking out,

24:47 Speaker 1: and you know, then they walk you know there, whatever

24:51 Speaker 1: happens happens, and you know, eventually they hit a barrier

24:56 Speaker 1: and then they're back into their present time. But it

25:00 Speaker 1: it begs the question, we've been told that the world

25:05 Speaker 1: is black and white, yeap, what if there's a lot

25:09 Speaker 1: more gray than we've ever we can ever anticipate, right,

25:15 Speaker 1: And that maybe is it completely insane to think that

25:21 Speaker 1: they might have walked through space time or a rip

25:24 Speaker 1: in space time.

25:25 Speaker 2: It's interesting because since it's written in like the eighteen hundreds,

25:29 Speaker 2: she doesn't have any of these any of this terminology

25:31 Speaker 2: reference points. She's just like, oh, it was the haunted farm.

25:34 Speaker 2: I saw the haunted farm in which is woods, and

25:35 Speaker 2: this is what it was like. So for us, it's like, oh,

25:37 Speaker 2: it's a time warp or whatever you want to think about.

25:40 Speaker 2: For her, she's like, it was just a haunted farm

25:41 Speaker 2: and I saw it and I'm glad I go inside

25:43 Speaker 2: or whatever.

25:44 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a wild story.

25:46 Speaker 2: It's a wild story. It's not really well known. It's

25:48 Speaker 2: just in her little book, which is a like her memoirs.

25:51 Speaker 2: Which is not widely available.

25:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, well this is why we got you here today

25:55 Speaker 1: because story for stories. I love this stuff and G

26:00 Speaker 1: and I, Geene and I are part of something that

26:01 Speaker 1: he created called Wicked Alien Radio and it's really like

26:06 Speaker 1: a New England focus. So I thought it was a

26:09 Speaker 1: perfect marriage of calving you here today for that kind

26:13 Speaker 1: of thing. So like, really, thank you. Someone actually asked

26:18 Speaker 1: me to bring this up to you, so I want

26:21 Speaker 1: to do it because if not, I'll probably forget. Can

26:25 Speaker 1: you tell me about He made me write it down

26:28 Speaker 1: as one of my coworkers, the Cape ann sighting, hundreds

26:34 Speaker 1: of people saw or he made Cape and Sea Serpent,

26:39 Speaker 1: the Sea Serpent. Yes, the it keeps turning on me.

26:43 Speaker 2: The Gloucester Sea Serpent, the Cape and Sea Serpent.

26:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, he made me write three dates, sixteen thirty nine,

26:47 Speaker 1: eighteen seventeen, eighteen nineteen. I'm not sure which is the

26:50 Speaker 1: right one.

26:50 Speaker 2: I mean, it's always been. It's been seen multiple times, right, Oh,

26:53 Speaker 2: so it's been. The Sea Serpent was seen up and

26:56 Speaker 2: down Cape and up and down really the Massachusetts coast

26:59 Speaker 2: for like couple of centuries. I think the first one,

27:02 Speaker 2: if we're talking about the sixteen hundreds. People see this

27:06 Speaker 2: sea serpent and they say it's like one hundred feet

27:08 Speaker 2: long and it's as big as a barrel around. It's

27:10 Speaker 2: like this big monstrous thing just lying on the beach,

27:12 Speaker 2: and they of course do not go near it because like, oh,

27:14 Speaker 2: that's a big sea serpent. We're sticking, We're keeping away

27:16 Speaker 2: from that giant sea serpent. So there are some stories

27:20 Speaker 2: in it that are kind of these older hearsay stories.

27:23 Speaker 2: Like there's also some stories about people like being attacked

27:26 Speaker 2: by mermaids and things like that, which you see early

27:28 Speaker 2: from the sixteen hundred and seventeen hundreds, right, So they

27:31 Speaker 2: around and you don't see a lot of mermaid attacks

27:33 Speaker 2: these days, but back then, I guess back then was

27:35 Speaker 2: something to be concerned about.

27:37 Speaker 1: But but sorry to interject here, Yeah, what if mermaid? Right?

27:43 Speaker 1: And I understand how they're depicted, but what if it

27:46 Speaker 1: just means being from the water.

27:48 Speaker 2: Right, it could be some other and human I don't know,

27:51 Speaker 2: from the deep or something.

27:52 Speaker 1: Well, I know like that right here. I don't know

27:54 Speaker 1: if you know this, but like Congressman Tim Burchett, people,

27:59 Speaker 1: I hate to say his name, but a velbe all

28:02 Speaker 1: these people right now have been talking about how they

28:08 Speaker 1: think that these extraterrestrials are coming from the water. So

28:14 Speaker 1: what if the vernacular has changed. Mermaid is the only

28:18 Speaker 1: reference pressure that they ad So I think it's important

28:23 Speaker 1: to say these things out loud because to preface the

28:26 Speaker 1: story before it's told. Because again, if you like Jacques

28:31 Speaker 1: vlais right, from fairies what they called fairies we now

28:36 Speaker 1: call you just switch a couple of words and now

28:39 Speaker 1: it's an extraterrestrial or an alien? Right, So is could

28:44 Speaker 1: that be what we're dealing with?

28:45 Speaker 2: And sorry, oh, so you know, I think it's an

28:47 Speaker 2: interesting question. We'll get back to the sea serpent shortly.

28:50 Speaker 2: But I feel like I understand what you're saying, and

28:55 Speaker 2: you do hear these stories about like mermaids, triton, whatever

29:00 Speaker 2: you want to call, Mike, humanoid creatures that live in

29:02 Speaker 2: the ocean going back century century centuries, like the Greeks

29:05 Speaker 2: had it, the Babylonians had these creatures called like Coolulu, right,

29:09 Speaker 2: and if you think of that name is a little

29:10 Speaker 2: bit like Clulu, which is extra creepy to people, right,

29:12 Speaker 2: all this stuff, Like I think these very old mermaid

29:16 Speaker 2: like beings are seen even in like the Anuma Elish,

29:19 Speaker 2: which is one of the oldest stories written. So then

29:23 Speaker 2: people thought talk about Dagon and all this sort of stuff, right,

29:26 Speaker 2: so it's sort of like what is it? And you know,

29:30 Speaker 2: there's never been no one's ever found a body of

29:33 Speaker 2: a mermaid or a triton or anything like that. So

29:36 Speaker 2: that's what I always come back to, like this no

29:37 Speaker 2: physical thing.

29:39 Speaker 1: But if they're looking for the wrong thing, may looking

29:41 Speaker 1: for the wrong thing.

29:42 Speaker 2: But maybe it's a spiritual thing you're having as well. Right,

29:44 Speaker 2: maybe you're like experiencing the spirit of the water or

29:47 Speaker 2: the energy of the water, and this is how you're

29:49 Speaker 2: man it's you're manifesting it, or it's you're seeing it,

29:52 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I think of like if

29:54 Speaker 2: you don't know, if you know. The horror author HP

29:56 Speaker 2: Lovecraft from Rhode Island, right talked about the Deep Ones,

30:00 Speaker 2: which in his stories, which he says he always says

30:03 Speaker 2: his stories are fiction, right, That's always important. HP Lovecraft

30:05 Speaker 2: always says his stories are fiction. You know. He talked

30:08 Speaker 2: about these humanoids that live in the ocean and they're

30:11 Speaker 2: very like amorously interested in humans and all this sort

30:14 Speaker 2: of stuff. Sot of like mermaids were also interested in humans.

30:18 Speaker 2: But then after he died, some occultists sort of thought,

30:22 Speaker 2: you know, maybe HPO Lovecraft was right, maybe this stuff

30:25 Speaker 2: is real. And so there have been people who have

30:26 Speaker 2: done rituals around deep ones, trying to summon them. Some

30:29 Speaker 2: people say successfully, some people say unsuccessfully. But sort of

30:32 Speaker 2: this more of a spiritual approach to a mermaid or

30:36 Speaker 2: a sentient humanoid in the ocean versus a more physical one. Right,

30:41 Speaker 2: So I feel like to me sometimes that's another lens

30:45 Speaker 2: to put on when you look at these stories, like

30:47 Speaker 2: do you want to how literally do you want to

30:49 Speaker 2: take the story versus how like spiritually do you want

30:51 Speaker 2: to take the story versus how much of it is

30:53 Speaker 2: just like a hoax or a misidentification. I think those

30:55 Speaker 2: are four different ways of like it's a hoax, someone

30:58 Speaker 2: just outright lying, it's a misidentify vacation. Maybe someone saw

31:01 Speaker 2: a seal, right and think of that. Look at that thing,

31:03 Speaker 2: it's a it's a mermaid. It was a little bit

31:05 Speaker 2: of seal versus a spiritual thing, Like I saw a

31:08 Speaker 2: mermaid in a vision that I had while I was

31:10 Speaker 2: on the beach. Verstas there was a physical being that

31:14 Speaker 2: has the body of a human and the legs of

31:16 Speaker 2: a fish that is in the ocean right at this moment. Right, So,

31:19 Speaker 2: so different lenses to take. I think we're talking about.

31:21 Speaker 1: These spores, right, So back to the serpent.

31:24 Speaker 2: Sea serpent.

31:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was prolific through So it.

31:28 Speaker 2: Was seen, you know, in the sixteen hundreds other places,

31:31 Speaker 2: but in the eighteen hundreds, I don't remember the exact dates.

31:34 Speaker 2: It was around the Civil War era. I think a

31:37 Speaker 2: sea serpent is seen in Gloucester Harbor and it is

31:40 Speaker 2: seen many, many times by multiple people. So and it

31:45 Speaker 2: was written up in the newspapers. It was well documented,

31:47 Speaker 2: like respectable citizens saw this sea serpent. People on boats

31:51 Speaker 2: saw the sea serpent. Women on sar and with telescope

31:54 Speaker 2: saw the sea serpent right and they saw it. Said

31:56 Speaker 2: it was like very long, I had had humps, it

31:59 Speaker 2: had a head like a horse, all these things. So

32:04 Speaker 2: they see it and what is it? No one was

32:06 Speaker 2: quite sure. Somebody, someone at the time, a sea captain says,

32:09 Speaker 2: I've captured everyone comes see my sea serpent. And people

32:11 Speaker 2: go and see it's as a giant fish. This is

32:14 Speaker 2: not the sea serpent we were promised. They were happy.

32:17 Speaker 1: Oh I'm glad to know there was grifters back then.

32:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, there always been grifters, always grifters some And then

32:22 Speaker 2: also at the same time, this little boy in Gloucester

32:25 Speaker 2: finds a black snake on the beach and has these

32:28 Speaker 2: big lumps on its body similar to what they had

32:31 Speaker 2: seen in the ocean of the giant sea serpent. So

32:34 Speaker 2: this group of Boston naturalists, like scientists studying you know animals,

32:38 Speaker 2: are very excited thinking, oh, this is a baby sea serpent. Right,

32:41 Speaker 2: We've found a baby sea serpent. We found a new species.

32:44 Speaker 2: This is gonna be amazing, And so they stake their

32:47 Speaker 2: reputation kind of on this thing. And then when they investigate,

32:50 Speaker 2: it's just a regular black snake that had been effective

32:52 Speaker 2: with some sort of like virus or something of fungus.

32:55 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it's not a sea serpent either.

32:57 Speaker 1: Yeah. God, there's so many gene will know, there's so

33:01 Speaker 1: many parallels into these stories as to what's like going

33:04 Speaker 1: on now. It's like the hoaxes of like Ivy I

33:08 Speaker 1: don't want to say his name, but like the mummies

33:11 Speaker 1: down in South America. Oh, like they sold tickets and

33:15 Speaker 1: they were like, come see our aliens. And it's like

33:18 Speaker 1: the same story of like, come see our sea service.

33:21 Speaker 2: And it was just not it was Yeah, I mean

33:24 Speaker 2: there's it's always been happening. There was some I love it.

33:28 Speaker 2: So the sea serpent kind of disappeared after while, but

33:30 Speaker 2: no one ever figured out what it was. So it

33:33 Speaker 2: shows up again in other times too. I think one

33:35 Speaker 2: of the last times it seems like nineteen sixty three

33:39 Speaker 2: or something like that.

33:40 Speaker 1: Do you find it a little odd that it's not

33:45 Speaker 1: just seen in New England? Of course, locked nests right

33:51 Speaker 1: all over the world. This idea of a creature and

33:58 Speaker 1: I don't even like using that word because I think

34:00 Speaker 1: it connotates like a monster. But this thing that was

34:06 Speaker 1: very large, larger than they'd ever seen before, which could

34:12 Speaker 1: capsize boats and you know, if it wanted to. I

34:17 Speaker 1: don't even know if friendly is the word. Indifferent could

34:20 Speaker 1: have been what it really was, just like a whale

34:23 Speaker 1: is indifferent right until you encroach, then you know it

34:30 Speaker 1: it will need to do what it needs to do.

34:32 Speaker 1: But these things have been talked about for as long

34:38 Speaker 1: as humans could right story like right and keep record

34:42 Speaker 1: right from the vikings all the way to right right

34:47 Speaker 1: even earlier. And that's what I find interesting. Could it

34:52 Speaker 1: have just been giant squid. I probably that's one of

34:55 Speaker 1: the things, right, But we know more.

34:57 Speaker 2: About the loom something swimming together how to say, Right,

35:00 Speaker 2: you see something undulating? Is that one thing? It looks

35:03 Speaker 2: like one thing. Maybe it's a whole school of whales

35:05 Speaker 2: or porpoises or whatever or something.

35:07 Speaker 1: Right, And what I was getting to is it's it

35:16 Speaker 1: is hard right with no physical evidence to like get

35:21 Speaker 1: But we know more about the surface of the Moon

35:25 Speaker 1: than we do what's in at the deepest parts of

35:29 Speaker 1: our ocean. So and they've evolved as what is it

35:33 Speaker 1: invertebrate is when it doesn't but when the pressure won't

35:37 Speaker 1: affect it right, right, so they don't have like skeletons

35:43 Speaker 1: that would just be pressure, you know, destroyed just like

35:46 Speaker 1: that the capsule that went down, Right, Like, it's it's

35:53 Speaker 1: easier to get to the Moon than it is to

35:55 Speaker 1: get to the bottom of our ocean because the pressure.

35:58 Speaker 3: Is so.

36:00 Speaker 1: It's so intense that it just crushes things. But there

36:08 Speaker 1: are animals that or creep beings in the ocean that

36:11 Speaker 1: have adapted and evolved to be able to live under

36:15 Speaker 1: there with no light no, because the light from the

36:18 Speaker 1: sun doesn't even reach down there. In like places like

36:21 Speaker 1: the Marianas Trench. So to say that we know it's not,

36:26 Speaker 1: I think is very very It's what the humans love

36:31 Speaker 1: to do because we hate the fear of the unknown, right,

36:34 Speaker 1: we need to know everything. No, there possibly couldn't be

36:37 Speaker 1: a sea serpent down there, but then we find a

36:39 Speaker 1: giant squid and they're like, oh Jesus, that's big, right,

36:43 Speaker 1: that thing could do some damage if it wanted. So

36:48 Speaker 1: your thoughts on the sea sarpent as you probably mis identified,

36:52 Speaker 1: but could be some truth.

36:55 Speaker 2: Thing you've probably misidentified. But who knows, right, I guess

36:58 Speaker 2: I feel like there are things in the ocean we

37:00 Speaker 2: haven't seen. But are there giant snake like monsters down there?

37:03 Speaker 2: Or is it just variants of things that already exist?

37:06 Speaker 2: Like we know what a squid is like, so is

37:10 Speaker 2: it just another Like a giant squid is not that

37:12 Speaker 2: different from our regular squid, it's just much bigger versus

37:14 Speaker 2: we don't There are no gigantic scaly monsters swiming around there, like,

37:18 Speaker 2: no giant snake like monsters in the ocean, right DC.

37:21 Speaker 2: So they may have been in the past, but there

37:22 Speaker 2: are now.

37:23 Speaker 1: In the right right, So what is moving into kind

37:30 Speaker 1: of like the greatest hits of New England folklore. If

37:35 Speaker 1: someone had never heard of a single New England legend before,

37:40 Speaker 1: what are the first, say five stories that you you

37:44 Speaker 1: tell them.

37:46 Speaker 2: Well, the first one is probably just like Salem witch

37:48 Speaker 2: trials is like for massaters. That's the thing, right, witchcraft

37:53 Speaker 2: is like the big thing here, hundreds of stories about

37:56 Speaker 2: which is here Selmwich trials the most famous, right sixteen

38:01 Speaker 2: ninety two, nineteen people executed, one person crushed to death

38:05 Speaker 2: during torture, and then several other people died in jail.

38:08 Speaker 2: So that was the biggest witch trial in North America.

38:12 Speaker 2: And that sort of was the end of the witch

38:13 Speaker 2: trials also because I think when that happened, even I

38:17 Speaker 2: as it was going on, there were people like, this

38:19 Speaker 2: does not seem right to us, and then by the

38:21 Speaker 2: time it was over, people like, oh, this is really

38:23 Speaker 2: not right. Like there was a lot of skepticism always

38:25 Speaker 2: about it, but when it was over, it was people

38:27 Speaker 2: were really turned against the whole concept of accusing people

38:30 Speaker 2: of witchcraft in court. They didn't stop be living in

38:32 Speaker 2: witchcraft necessarily, they just realized you couldn't prove it in court.

38:36 Speaker 2: And so even after the Sem witch Trials are over.

38:37 Speaker 2: You do see these stories about witches appearing throughout New

38:41 Speaker 2: England for hundreds of years, so it'd say Sem witch

38:43 Speaker 2: trials is like a biggie like that's one of the

38:45 Speaker 2: big ones, right, and all the sort of legends and

38:48 Speaker 2: stories that kind of circulate around that, like ghosts that

38:51 Speaker 2: haunt places associated with Selm witches and all that stuff.

38:53 Speaker 2: It's huge.

38:54 Speaker 1: I assume you've been to Salem.

38:55 Speaker 2: Yeah many times.

38:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, people report that when they enter Salem it feels

39:03 Speaker 1: like they've entered like once they cross into Salem, it's

39:09 Speaker 1: like a bubble that they enter into. Have you ever

39:12 Speaker 1: heard this before? Just how many times have we heard it?

39:18 Speaker 2: Quite a bit, so who knows, maybe more witchy and

39:22 Speaker 2: something like I'm just I'm coming home.

39:24 Speaker 1: Like producer producer Producer Jean says that he feels like

39:37 Speaker 1: he's walking into a tourist trap. And you know what,

39:41 Speaker 1: isn't it ironic that these days if you go to

39:46 Speaker 1: Salem there it's witch shop after which, and I don't

39:50 Speaker 1: like every time I'm there, You're right, Gene, I'm almost

39:53 Speaker 1: like I don't know if this is right, like practice,

39:58 Speaker 1: like everyone's practicing quote unquote witch the holistic witchcraft at

40:02 Speaker 1: the place where a bunch of people were accused of

40:06 Speaker 1: witchcraft falsely for greed, power, land grabs and other petty,

40:12 Speaker 1: petty differences between your neighbors, right, and now they like

40:19 Speaker 1: celebrate witchcraft and every like.

40:21 Speaker 2: Is that disrespectful, here's my opinion. So one thing, it's

40:25 Speaker 2: been going on there since eighteen fifty one. In eighteen

40:28 Speaker 2: fifty one, Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote The House of Seven Gables,

40:31 Speaker 2: who was a huge national best seller and the country

40:33 Speaker 2: wasn't as big in eighteen fifty one, but was still

40:35 Speaker 2: a big best seller set. And it's about the Salem

40:37 Speaker 2: witch trials and all this stuff. It's a huge hit.

40:40 Speaker 2: And so people started to come to Salem to see

40:42 Speaker 2: the places he had written about. From around the country.

40:44 Speaker 2: They would go to Soem like, we want to see

40:46 Speaker 2: the House of seven Gables. Oh, we want to see

40:47 Speaker 2: the graveyards. Oh, we want to see all these things.

40:50 Speaker 2: And so eighteen fifty one people in Salem started to

40:53 Speaker 2: like say, oh, this is really cool. We can make

40:55 Speaker 2: some money off these tourists. And so they started to

40:58 Speaker 2: like market to tourist even in eighteen fifty one, like

41:01 Speaker 2: eighteen ninety two was a two hundred year anniversary right

41:06 Speaker 2: of the witch trails, and the town like produced a

41:08 Speaker 2: map of local sites to see about the witch trials.

41:10 Speaker 1: Oh my god, they waited two people. They waited two

41:14 Speaker 1: people until they started monetizing it.

41:17 Speaker 2: Two centuries. Two centuries.

41:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, two people. Yeah, let's just say the average person, right,

41:23 Speaker 1: one hundred years. Yeah, they waited two people before they.

41:28 Speaker 2: They had a you know, Pep Parker Brothers put out

41:30 Speaker 2: a game called the Witchcraft Game. People would sell soap,

41:33 Speaker 2: witch soap. So it's not new, it's been going on

41:35 Speaker 2: for a long time.

41:37 Speaker 1: You know what I find fascinating about Salem is we

41:40 Speaker 1: went there. We have a good relationship with a shop

41:45 Speaker 1: called Pentagram.

41:46 Speaker 2: Oh that's a great store, and they're.

41:47 Speaker 1: Right next to the memorial. What a lot of people

41:51 Speaker 1: don't realize is that memorial is not where they're buried.

41:54 Speaker 2: Some of them. So they're not No one knows where

41:56 Speaker 2: they're buried, right, Their bodies were thrown in some unmarked.

41:59 Speaker 1: Gray of something. Yeah, so do you have an idea

42:05 Speaker 1: of where they're buried, of where the actual hangings took place?

42:09 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, it's Gallows. It's Gallows Hill is marked. Now

42:12 Speaker 2: there it was only the last ten or fifteen years.

42:16 Speaker 2: I think. I can't remember when they figured out where

42:18 Speaker 2: it was. And it's how do they think the walmreens.

42:22 Speaker 2: It's just like they sort of knew the neighborhood always

42:26 Speaker 2: they were, and then they started to read people's diaries

42:28 Speaker 2: from the time, and someone was saying, oh, I could

42:31 Speaker 2: see you know, I saw the wagons carrying the people

42:35 Speaker 2: go by my house and the and they figured out

42:37 Speaker 2: where the house was that this person lived in.

42:39 Speaker 1: So it's like a friend's like deep, yeah.

42:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, very deep, very very detailed where it is so

42:44 Speaker 2: that it is a park. Now I think there's a

42:45 Speaker 2: small park there, but they're not. Really, it's not in downtown.

42:48 Speaker 2: It's further out. It was behind the shopping plaza.

42:51 Speaker 1: And no one actually goes there. No, it's most people don't.

42:55 Speaker 2: Go, but it's further it's a longer walk.

42:56 Speaker 1: Yes, so they go to this memorial.

43:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is. I mean.

43:07 Speaker 1: It's a tourist thing.

43:09 Speaker 2: It's it's a will say it's put it this way right, Yes,

43:12 Speaker 2: it's memorial. It's memorial.

43:14 Speaker 1: It's become a tourist thing.

43:16 Speaker 2: It's become a tourist thing. But you can think at

43:18 Speaker 2: it this way, like the town that town executed. You know,

43:25 Speaker 2: these nineteen people killed one through torture, et cetera, et cetera,

43:28 Speaker 2: et cetera. Right, did terrible Giles, Corey Giles Cory Terrible

43:31 Speaker 2: things happened to these people? So is this just kind

43:35 Speaker 2: of karmic payback that this town is now like which city,

43:40 Speaker 2: which capital? And they embraced the witch for ass like

43:43 Speaker 2: saying we're going to kill the witches, Like have they

43:45 Speaker 2: just learned a lesson? Like Okay, hey, witchcraft is cool.

43:48 Speaker 2: We're just gonna like.

43:50 Speaker 1: But what about the people now say go surreal, yea,

43:54 Speaker 1: let's let's suspend our you know what I mean. I'm

44:01 Speaker 1: not even sure because we've had some weird shit happened

44:03 Speaker 1: in here too, and uh, you know, at this point,

44:06 Speaker 1: I just let's say it, like, let's say it's all

44:09 Speaker 1: it's all there, right, and you were crushed to death, crushed,

44:15 Speaker 1: you weren't even hung, you didn't get that liberty, You

44:19 Speaker 1: got crushed, and then you come back as a ghost

44:23 Speaker 1: and a couple hundred years later they're like it's witch

44:28 Speaker 1: shitty and they're celebrating witchcraft and you do you the

44:31 Speaker 1: reason you're a ghost is because right, Like do you

44:36 Speaker 1: think that maybe like maybe some of those people resent

44:39 Speaker 1: to the idea.

44:41 Speaker 2: Or are they excited to be remembered? Right?

44:44 Speaker 1: You know what's good?

44:45 Speaker 2: Excited to be remembered and celebrated or are you sad

44:49 Speaker 2: to be monetized that is a good pay for our ghost?

44:53 Speaker 2: Maybe like psych everyone remembers what.

44:55 Speaker 1: Does everybody want? Legacy? I mean, it's at your legacies.

45:00 Speaker 1: He got crushed to death.

45:02 Speaker 2: But Giles Corey is an interesting person, Like everyone remembers

45:06 Speaker 2: that he was crushed to death, which is a terrible

45:07 Speaker 2: way to die. He was a rough character, like if

45:12 Speaker 2: you read about him, he had beaten one of his

45:15 Speaker 2: servants to death, unfamiliar and so he was not convicted.

45:19 Speaker 2: But everyone in Salem was like, Giles Corey is trouble,

45:21 Speaker 2: Like we want to get rid of Giles Corey if

45:23 Speaker 2: we can, and so that yeah, so I think that

45:28 Speaker 2: was in people's minds that they accused him, like, oh,

45:32 Speaker 2: this is a he's a violent birds person and he

45:37 Speaker 2: so people don't know this story. He was his wife

45:39 Speaker 2: had been accused of a witchcraft, and he's like, oh, yeah,

45:42 Speaker 2: she's a witch. She's totally a witch. And then he

45:44 Speaker 2: was accused of being which is like a crap, I'm

45:47 Speaker 2: you know. He suddenly the finger was pointing at him. Uh,

45:52 Speaker 2: and he I suppose he realized that the whole thing

45:55 Speaker 2: was a scam at this point because he knows he's

45:57 Speaker 2: not a witch. Because he's not a witch, and so

46:00 Speaker 2: he is interrogated ask these questions. He refuses to answer,

46:05 Speaker 2: and people suspect it was because he if he had answered,

46:08 Speaker 2: he would have been convicted or whatever, and then they

46:11 Speaker 2: would have confiscated his property, and they were leaving the

46:13 Speaker 2: property to their children, right, And so he didn't respond

46:19 Speaker 2: to any questions. And according to Massachusetts law at that time,

46:22 Speaker 2: if you didn't answer questions while being interrogated, they were

46:25 Speaker 2: allowed to torture you by putting a board on you

46:27 Speaker 2: and compiling rocks onto your body until you spoke. And

46:30 Speaker 2: so they stretched him out in a field, tied him

46:32 Speaker 2: to the ground, put a board on him, and dispiled

46:34 Speaker 2: on these rocks until they hoped he would speak. And

46:38 Speaker 2: they kept saying, Giles Corey, do you have anything to say,

46:40 Speaker 2: Giles Corey, do you have anything to say? As they

46:42 Speaker 2: put them more and more rocks, and they put on

46:44 Speaker 2: these rocks and finally these only words were add more weight,

46:46 Speaker 2: and they put them more weights and he died. So

46:49 Speaker 2: he was he was hardcore or he was hardcore. He

46:51 Speaker 2: was a murderer, but he was hardcore murderer again, but he.

46:54 Speaker 1: Took the punish, Yeah, he took punishment.

46:58 Speaker 2: The place where he was killed is now a cemetery.

47:00 Speaker 2: It's Howard Street Cemetery, which is kind of a little

47:02 Speaker 2: bit off the beaten track. Be you can go, which

47:04 Speaker 2: just in the residential neighborhood. People say his ghost can

47:07 Speaker 2: be seen there if you want to go look for

47:09 Speaker 2: his ghosts there.

47:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, it smoked a joint.

47:11 Speaker 2: Did you see his ghosts?

47:12 Speaker 1: I didn't see his ghosts, but I mean the joint

47:14 Speaker 1: could have impaired me that thy Yeah, I'm not sure.

47:17 Speaker 2: And people all say his ghost has appeared in Salem

47:19 Speaker 2: when something bad is going to happen. So there was

47:21 Speaker 2: a big, big an omen. So there's a big fire

47:24 Speaker 2: in nineteen eleven which burned down a lot of the

47:26 Speaker 2: business district, and his ghost appeared before that. And people

47:29 Speaker 2: are like, oh, if you see draws Krey's ghost and Salem,

47:31 Speaker 2: that's bad news for the city.

47:33 Speaker 1: Interest He's like.

47:35 Speaker 2: An omen of bad things. Happening.

47:37 Speaker 1: So moving past Salem witch trials. You know, one last

47:43 Speaker 1: thing I'll say about this is a lot of a

47:45 Speaker 1: lot of people I've talked to when I asked them, hey,

47:48 Speaker 1: how many how many people do you think died in

47:50 Speaker 1: the witch trials in Salem? Specifically, they think thousands? Can

47:57 Speaker 1: you just again reiterate?

47:59 Speaker 2: So it was nineteen were executed, one was died through torture,

48:02 Speaker 2: and then several died in prison.

48:03 Speaker 1: Okay, it is not thousands. Guys, might be thousands worldwide.

48:09 Speaker 2: I don't The numbers of people who died in witch

48:11 Speaker 2: trials is a topic of a lot of scholarly discussions.

48:15 Speaker 2: Say it's hundreds of thousands, probably right across Europe. Someplace

48:20 Speaker 2: in Europe there were huge witch trial like Germany and

48:22 Speaker 2: France had these massive witch trials. I think those are

48:24 Speaker 2: the biggest witch trials are in Germany and France.

48:27 Speaker 1: Probably, Yes, I just I wanted to address that.

48:31 Speaker 2: It was nineteen people executed, one died of torture, and

48:34 Speaker 2: then people died in prison. There were hundreds of people

48:36 Speaker 2: were accused, and there was a weird fluke of their

48:41 Speaker 2: of how the system was set up, like normally in

48:45 Speaker 2: the Puritan era, if you wanted to bring charges against somebody,

48:49 Speaker 2: you had to pay to do it. You had to

48:50 Speaker 2: pay a fee. And this was to prevent nuisance lawsuits.

48:54 Speaker 2: You couldn't just.

48:55 Speaker 1: Accuse him, bring back.

48:57 Speaker 2: You had to pay to do it.

48:58 Speaker 1: We should bring that back, we should, right.

49:01 Speaker 2: But the judges in the film, which I was like, no,

49:03 Speaker 2: we're gonna wave that because we want to get as

49:05 Speaker 2: many witches as we can. So that was one thing

49:07 Speaker 2: they did which is not good. Uh. They also accepted

49:10 Speaker 2: what they called spectral evidence. So spectral evidence this idea

49:14 Speaker 2: that witches can send their souls out to cause trouble

49:18 Speaker 2: and the only people can see these souls of the

49:19 Speaker 2: people they're attacking. So like your audience right now can't

49:23 Speaker 2: see that my soul is attacking Tyler, but Tyler can

49:25 Speaker 2: see it. And Tyler's like, Peter's a witch. His soul

49:27 Speaker 2: is attacking me, right, spectral evidence. You have to listen

49:30 Speaker 2: to Tyler and believe him even though there's absolutely no

49:31 Speaker 2: proof my souls leave my body.

49:33 Speaker 1: He's a witch.

49:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a witch.

49:35 Speaker 1: Hang them, yeah, and that I might have to edit

49:40 Speaker 1: that out. I just said, hang him anyway.

49:45 Speaker 2: Is that bad for you too?

49:47 Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh if i'm even though it's a joke, it's

49:50 Speaker 1: a joke. Yeah, that's fine, we'll just keep it up.

49:53 Speaker 1: He's a witch, a witch.

49:55 Speaker 2: So and the last thing these judges did also was

49:58 Speaker 2: if you pled guilty to being a witch and named names,

50:01 Speaker 2: they let you live. But if you pled innocent and

50:03 Speaker 2: did not name names, that executed you. Oh, so there

50:06 Speaker 2: was an incentive if you were accused of being a

50:08 Speaker 2: witch and name say witches, I'm a witch, and know

50:10 Speaker 2: who else is the witch? Tyler and Gina witch is too?

50:13 Speaker 2: Their witches also. Then they'd bring you in and you'd

50:14 Speaker 2: be like, yeah, I'm a witch, and also's my mother,

50:16 Speaker 2: and so's my sister, and says my neighbor, they're witches too.

50:18 Speaker 2: They bring them and they accuse people. So just would

50:21 Speaker 2: grow and grow and grow. So the only people who

50:23 Speaker 2: are executed are the people who said they were innocent.

50:25 Speaker 2: People said I am not a witch were not hanged,

50:27 Speaker 2: where the people said I am not a witch were

50:29 Speaker 2: the only people who were hanged. Wow, So they became

50:32 Speaker 2: this weird dichotomy or screwed up system where you were

50:36 Speaker 2: this incentive to lie and say you're a witch and

50:38 Speaker 2: name names. Otherwise you were going to be executed.

50:40 Speaker 3: Wow.

50:41 Speaker 2: So that's why so many people were accused, like one

50:43 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty people were accused. But that's why so

50:44 Speaker 2: few people were killed, because because everyone was lying to

50:48 Speaker 2: say and said they were witches, so they would live.

50:50 Speaker 1: You almost have a little bit more respect for the

50:52 Speaker 1: people that say, no, I won't conform, I will not

50:56 Speaker 1: say I'm a witch. Yeah that's interesting. Yeah, so what's

51:01 Speaker 1: the next.

51:03 Speaker 2: Boy, So we're talking top five, top five? Yeah, top five.

51:07 Speaker 2: I guess. Let's say Bridgewater Triangle is really popular these days.

51:10 Speaker 2: People like to hear about that from the nineteen eighties.

51:13 Speaker 2: That shut up, Like nineteen eighty one. I think Lauren Coleman,

51:16 Speaker 2: famous cryptozoologist. He actually founded the word cryptozoology, which is amazing. Like, yeah,

51:22 Speaker 2: here's a weird story. I was in my neighborhood. There

51:26 Speaker 2: was a drag show around gay Pride and it was

51:28 Speaker 2: called Cryptid Night. So the drag queen's a dressed like cryptids.

51:31 Speaker 2: And I thought Lauren Coleman started this in nineteen in

51:34 Speaker 2: the eighties, Like somehow these people are like, yes, the

51:38 Speaker 2: term cryptid has become so embedded in society, and Lauren

51:41 Speaker 2: Coleman started that, right, So anyway, it's crazy, right, right.

51:44 Speaker 2: So Lauren Coleman sort of noticed that there was a

51:47 Speaker 2: lot of reports of strange things in this area in Massachusetts,

51:51 Speaker 2: southeastern Massachusett, the Bridgewater Triangle and oh, he's still love.

51:56 Speaker 2: I think he's turning eighty.

51:57 Speaker 1: We gotta find him.

51:58 Speaker 2: He's in Bangor, Maine.

52:00 Speaker 1: We're gonna find him.

52:02 Speaker 2: And so he dubbed this area in southeastern Massachusetts the

52:05 Speaker 2: Bridgewater Triangle, like the Bermuda Triangle, but in Bridgewater.

52:09 Speaker 1: Uh.

52:10 Speaker 2: And since then, I think because once you name something,

52:13 Speaker 2: people kind of focus in on it. The more people

52:16 Speaker 2: look at it, the more they see. As we've mentioned, right,

52:18 Speaker 2: so people are seeing like bigfoot, UFOs, giant birds, giant snakes, ghosts,

52:23 Speaker 2: paquaji's all these things in the Bridgewater Triangle, which you

52:26 Speaker 2: see those things everywhere in New England, but particular in

52:29 Speaker 2: the Bridgewater Triangle. People like, oh, it's in the Bridgewater Triangle.

52:31 Speaker 2: It's centered on a big swamp, the Hackamock Swamp.

52:34 Speaker 1: Which I find interesting because what does hawka mock mean?

52:38 Speaker 2: People say it means place of spirits, but I don't

52:40 Speaker 2: know if that's the right answer. There's some ideas that's

52:42 Speaker 2: a mistranslation. It made me like hook shaped swamp also

52:45 Speaker 2: or something like that. So it could mean place of spirits.

52:48 Speaker 2: It could not mean place of spirits.

52:49 Speaker 1: Well if it why I mean, and.

52:55 Speaker 2: I think also there's intro it's there's a possibility people

52:59 Speaker 2: got Hawk contrued with Hobamock. And Hobomock was sort of

53:04 Speaker 2: the local indigenous deity of swamps, snakes, disease, and darkness,

53:10 Speaker 2: so he was like an important ally for Shamans, like

53:13 Speaker 2: if you want to cure disease, you gotta be friends

53:16 Speaker 2: with Hobamock because he is the god who controls diseases, right,

53:19 Speaker 2: that gods. So hobam Hackamocks is kind of like a

53:22 Speaker 2: little confusion. But there was the King Phillips War that

53:27 Speaker 2: engulfed southeast Cape cod southeastern mass everywhere, right all of Massachusetts, right.

53:32 Speaker 1: Right all up the up the the the coast there,

53:37 Speaker 1: and there's this belt, this this swamp and the belt.

53:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, swamp and belt.

53:45 Speaker 1: I think right, that was taken. And again I'm not

53:50 Speaker 1: as familiar with the story, but the the from what

53:57 Speaker 1: I've gathered, and we went down there, we spent we

54:01 Speaker 1: spent how many nights, we spent about four nights in

54:05 Speaker 1: the middle of the Bridgewater time, and we stayed in

54:09 Speaker 1: one of the oldest houses, the oldest house in Easton,

54:12 Speaker 1: which is also haunted. We went to the Random Dog Track.

54:19 Speaker 2: Have been by the Random Dog Track that night.

54:22 Speaker 1: I will admit, I will admit this. The investigators we

54:27 Speaker 1: were there with I'm gonna I'm gonna give a real

54:30 Speaker 1: big exclusive kind of probably shouldn't say this here, but

54:34 Speaker 1: I'm going to. We went to the Random Dog Track

54:38 Speaker 1: that night was in credible, in credible, probably the closest

54:50 Speaker 1: brush I've ever had with what you could call the

54:54 Speaker 1: quote unquote paranormal, where I felt something on almost trying

55:00 Speaker 1: to take me over, Like something came up the base

55:04 Speaker 1: of my spine and like I could feel it. It

55:07 Speaker 1: was almost like it was trying to take me and

55:10 Speaker 1: it was like I had to fight. And I know

55:13 Speaker 1: it sounds crazy, I really do. Jess was there, there

55:17 Speaker 1: was other people there, and I felt I just felt

55:19 Speaker 1: super uncomfortable and I felt like not myself. And it

55:27 Speaker 1: was interesting because we weren't even gonna go out that night.

55:31 Speaker 1: They came to the front door and it was like

55:33 Speaker 1: eleven or twelve already. No, it was like it was

55:37 Speaker 1: like ten or eleven already and they were like, we're

55:39 Speaker 1: gonna go to the rain dog Track. Do you guys

55:41 Speaker 1: want to come? And my first set I literally said no.

55:45 Speaker 2: And then something, you want to go to the haunted

55:47 Speaker 2: dog Track.

55:48 Speaker 1: No.

55:48 Speaker 2: The answer should always be no when someone says that, right, But.

55:53 Speaker 1: The moon caught my eye because we were at the

55:56 Speaker 1: front steps, so they were outside on the steps. I

56:00 Speaker 1: was inside with Jess and we were kind of wrapping

56:03 Speaker 1: up and just getting gearing up for what we were

56:05 Speaker 1: going to do the next day. Something told me when

56:07 Speaker 1: I saw that moon, I need to go. So I

56:11 Speaker 1: was like, Jess, get your stuff, let's go. We're going.

56:14 Speaker 1: And we went out and it was probably the best night,

56:17 Speaker 1: full brightest full moon hanging in over the horizon, and

56:23 Speaker 1: you know when the moon's just extra bag.

56:26 Speaker 2: It was a.

56:26 Speaker 1: Super And the first night we were there, right and

56:32 Speaker 1: we're walking through the dog track and just things are

56:36 Speaker 1: it was just eerie. And then the whole time, the

56:41 Speaker 1: whole time after that, I was trying to recapture that

56:45 Speaker 1: first night, right, and it just never lived up to it.

56:49 Speaker 1: And even to the point we're one of the investigators.

56:53 Speaker 1: I'm not going to name them or her tried to

56:58 Speaker 1: get me to fake something for the documentary, and that's

57:03 Speaker 1: where the documentary got killed. Was when he did that.

57:06 Speaker 1: They did When he or she did that, that's when

57:10 Speaker 1: I was like, you know what I was like, and

57:12 Speaker 1: I believe Jess was right there. I was like, no,

57:14 Speaker 1: I'm not doing no, like I'm not That's not what

57:17 Speaker 1: I'm here for.

57:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been through Random.

57:21 Speaker 1: I'll admit it's a creepy place.

57:23 Speaker 2: And we were going to a friend's birthday party at a

57:24 Speaker 2: Chinese restaurant down the street from the dog Track or something,

57:27 Speaker 2: and we're driving down the road whatever that road is

57:30 Speaker 2: just like fog blowing across the road like it was

57:32 Speaker 2: a horror movie, Like, oh this is wild, Like this

57:34 Speaker 2: low fog like blowing blown like this is really I

57:37 Speaker 2: can see why people are spooked by this area.

57:41 Speaker 1: And again I got that feeling. Yeah, when I went

57:46 Speaker 1: into the Bridgewater Triangle, Yep, that that like bubble feeling again, right,

57:53 Speaker 1: And the only places I've had that are Salem, Bridgewater

57:57 Speaker 1: and Dudley. Okay, so what is it about? And that's

58:01 Speaker 1: why I set out to make that documentary about what

58:03 Speaker 1: connects these places? And we found tons of through lines

58:07 Speaker 1: to each of them. We're gonna actually I'm not gonna

58:11 Speaker 1: say this doesn't matter, but we are going to revive

58:15 Speaker 1: that documentary. But we're just gonna leave some people out,

58:18 Speaker 1: if you know what I mean.

58:20 Speaker 2: I've been Have you been to the Freetown State Forest,

58:22 Speaker 2: which is yeah, we went down there, right, So this

58:25 Speaker 2: is my this is my big Bridgewater Triangle story. My

58:27 Speaker 2: husband and I went to Freetown State Forest. We're gonna

58:30 Speaker 2: find the assonet ledge, right, a soannt ledge and I

58:33 Speaker 2: used to think it was ass in it, but no,

58:34 Speaker 2: it's not. It's a sonic, not ass on it. It's

58:36 Speaker 2: a sonnet. And so we drove down there to Freetown

58:40 Speaker 2: the State Forest. We park and the entrance we parked

58:44 Speaker 2: near was near a gun range, right, So we got

58:48 Speaker 2: out of the car. Immediately we hear gunshots, which is

58:49 Speaker 2: always like a soothing thing to hear when you're in

58:52 Speaker 2: someone shooting. So like, okay, this is not great. I

58:53 Speaker 2: hear gunshots. As a city person, I hear gunshots. It

58:56 Speaker 2: makes me nervous. Right, So we hear gunshots walking down

58:59 Speaker 2: this road and all the trees are dead. It's like

59:01 Speaker 2: pine trees. They've all been killed by pine borer beetles.

59:04 Speaker 2: So we're walking down a road with gunshots and dead

59:06 Speaker 2: trees around. It's like, okay, this is a good creepy

59:09 Speaker 2: start to the experience. Right, We're walking, walking, walking through

59:12 Speaker 2: these woods. I think we had a map of some kind,

59:17 Speaker 2: and the landscape is really odd in that forest, Like

59:20 Speaker 2: the paths were really sunken into the ground low, like

59:23 Speaker 2: I guess because it's very sandy or soft, right, So

59:26 Speaker 2: you're kind of walking knee deep in the ground right

59:29 Speaker 2: with these little troughs, which was weird to me. And

59:32 Speaker 2: it was early March. All the trees were leafless, but

59:34 Speaker 2: they're still They were blowing against each other in squeaking.

59:37 Speaker 1: So it was like squeak, squeaks, squeak.

59:38 Speaker 2: I was walking like, oh my god, this isn't right.

59:40 Speaker 2: It can creepier and creepier. We haven't seen anybody for

59:44 Speaker 2: like an hour, and then suddenly we see these teenagers

59:48 Speaker 2: wearing hoodies who were all like high out of their

59:50 Speaker 2: minds in the middle of the was like this is

59:52 Speaker 2: always good too, like a bunch of high teenagers. I'm like, okay,

59:56 Speaker 2: should we just turn the horror? Right? When do we

59:59 Speaker 2: just turn back? When do we just turn back, and

1:00:02 Speaker 2: finally we get to this pond and on the other

1:00:04 Speaker 2: side of the pond is the Assnet ledge. We go

1:00:07 Speaker 2: to the top of the ledge, which is supposed to

1:00:08 Speaker 2: be this and the ledge is a place where supposedly

1:00:12 Speaker 2: people see ghosts and also supposed to wear a puck wedge.

1:00:15 Speaker 2: Will talk about puck wedges in a bit, will push

1:00:17 Speaker 2: you off the ledge, right, So it's a spooky, spooky place.

1:00:19 Speaker 2: We get to the top of ledge and they were

1:00:21 Speaker 2: like school children having a picnic up there, right, So

1:00:24 Speaker 2: all the spooking is just like evaporates, Like, here are

1:00:26 Speaker 2: a bunch of kids playing games, having a picnic on

1:00:29 Speaker 2: this ledge by the water, having great time. So it's

1:00:31 Speaker 2: like spooky, spooky, spooky, spook oh children having a picnic

1:00:35 Speaker 2: the end, right, So I can see how the spooking

1:00:38 Speaker 2: is started. But we luckily didn't come to spooky conclusion

1:00:41 Speaker 2: for us.

1:00:41 Speaker 1: Yeah, we visited that ledge as well. Yeah, I attest

1:00:47 Speaker 1: to what you what you experience. Yeah, you know it's creepy,

1:00:51 Speaker 1: but again, it was like broad daylight when we were there, right.

1:00:54 Speaker 1: So then when we got up there, there was like

1:00:57 Speaker 1: dirt bikers up there. Yeah, exactly, I was like, oh, okay,

1:00:59 Speaker 1: that held the mood right right right.

1:01:01 Speaker 2: Not everyone knows it's supposed to be a beautiful view.

1:01:04 Speaker 1: They have a great view, but they say the lady

1:01:05 Speaker 1: in white or a page like try to like get

1:01:10 Speaker 1: you to and I will admit, and I think this happens.

1:01:15 Speaker 1: I think this is like a cuman a human thing

1:01:17 Speaker 1: because it doesn't just happen there. But people like when

1:01:22 Speaker 1: they're up on something high, they get this like have

1:01:24 Speaker 1: you ever had that gene where you're up on something

1:01:26 Speaker 1: eye and you're just like, what if I just jumped?

1:01:28 Speaker 2: No, No, I don't either. I stand back a phenomenon

1:01:32 Speaker 2: that people do that.

1:01:35 Speaker 1: But you've never had it. And when I was you're smarting.

1:01:40 Speaker 4: And things like that in the military, I would get

1:01:43 Speaker 4: nowhere near the ledge unless I was tied off to something.

1:01:48 Speaker 4: If I'm scared of anything is I have a horrible

1:01:52 Speaker 4: fear of heights when I'm not.

1:01:54 Speaker 1: Secure, secure, right, I could be there, a.

1:01:59 Speaker 4: Good good there.

1:02:04 Speaker 1: I got up to that ledge, looked over and sure

1:02:09 Speaker 1: as shit, sure as shit, this washed over feeling came

1:02:14 Speaker 1: over me to jump. I don't know what it was. Again,

1:02:19 Speaker 1: I'm not giving credence to it. I think it is

1:02:21 Speaker 1: because I've had that other places too, where I'm like,

1:02:25 Speaker 1: you know, what if I just drove off this bridge

1:02:28 Speaker 1: and then I know that sounds like a psycho thing,

1:02:30 Speaker 1: but I know the other it's it's intrusive thoughts, right.

1:02:34 Speaker 2: Like kind of little OCD, A little ancient.

1:02:36 Speaker 1: Yeah, anyone who knows me knows all the above.

1:02:40 Speaker 2: So interesting, like the assnic ledge. There is a legend

1:02:43 Speaker 2: that like a Native American ghost are seen like that

1:02:46 Speaker 2: people they would throw themselves off there. But it's relatively recent.

1:02:50 Speaker 2: Apparently that pond is a quarry used to be a quarry,

1:02:53 Speaker 2: so it's not that old really, it's a relatively from

1:02:55 Speaker 2: like nineteen hundred nineteenth century. So up, oh boy, I

1:03:01 Speaker 2: got it.

1:03:02 Speaker 1: So how is Loo he been a top three? And

1:03:03 Speaker 1: then we'll move on.

1:03:04 Speaker 2: Let's talk about we can talk about a puck Wedgies.

1:03:06 Speaker 2: I guess yeah, yeah, like that's something.

1:03:08 Speaker 1: By the way, I want to I want to preface this.

1:03:12 Speaker 1: I just put out it. We did an interview with

1:03:16 Speaker 1: Bill Russo, Oh he's great.

1:03:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got his story. But I watch you and

1:03:20 Speaker 2: all that stuff.

1:03:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, watch it's very right, and so we just put

1:03:25 Speaker 1: that one out. I just put that one out because

1:03:27 Speaker 1: that one stuck with me.

1:03:29 Speaker 2: It's a great story.

1:03:30 Speaker 1: And he won't say it's a puckwadgie, but he said

1:03:35 Speaker 1: that matches the description. Yeah, right, So what is a puckwadgie?

1:03:39 Speaker 2: Well, it's I just I think it's interesting for us

1:03:42 Speaker 2: that Bill doesn't say it's not doesn't say it's a

1:03:43 Speaker 2: puck wadgi because people have experiences. If we said, right,

1:03:48 Speaker 2: people have all these weird experiences and then later you

1:03:52 Speaker 2: can try to put them into the categories. So he

1:03:55 Speaker 2: had that experience and now everybody else tries to put

1:03:57 Speaker 2: it in this category, and he's like, I don't know

1:03:59 Speaker 2: if that's the category it should be in, which I

1:04:01 Speaker 2: can totally understand. Right. And in when you and I

1:04:06 Speaker 2: talked in the phone, I think we talked about the

1:04:08 Speaker 2: woman Mona Kempka. I think her name was who Oh.

1:04:12 Speaker 2: She was a nurse who lived in Framingham, Massachusetts. She

1:04:15 Speaker 2: since passed away, and I first saw her on a

1:04:17 Speaker 2: UFO show like America's Weirdest UFO Stories or something like that.

1:04:21 Speaker 2: She lived in Framingham and one night she's in her

1:04:24 Speaker 2: bedroom and she sees this mysterious pink light appear in

1:04:27 Speaker 2: her bedroom, like a pink orb appears inside and there's

1:04:30 Speaker 2: a pink myst around it too, and inside of it,

1:04:32 Speaker 2: she sees this gigantic muscle bound lizard, like a humanoid

1:04:35 Speaker 2: muscle bound lizard monster. And she just sees it, and

1:04:39 Speaker 2: she's freaked out, obviously, and then it disappears, and so

1:04:43 Speaker 2: she goes in this UFO show it says, you know,

1:04:45 Speaker 2: I think it was a reptilian alien. It was a reptoid.

1:04:47 Speaker 2: It was whatever. I don't know why is my bedroom,

1:04:49 Speaker 2: but that's what it was. But then a few years

1:04:52 Speaker 2: later she's online another place she says, no, it wasn't

1:04:56 Speaker 2: a reptoid al, and I think it was a demon.

1:04:58 Speaker 2: It was Zozo the weed demon, right, who is a

1:05:01 Speaker 2: specific demon you see kind of showing up with the

1:05:03 Speaker 2: two thousands people seeing this Wuigi demon. And so I

1:05:06 Speaker 2: guess the question is, like, she has this experience, she

1:05:08 Speaker 2: sees a giant musclebound lizard monster in her bedroom, but

1:05:10 Speaker 2: then how do you explain it? So she's trying to

1:05:12 Speaker 2: explain it different ways, right, she got these different is

1:05:16 Speaker 2: either was it a repertoid alien, was a Wuigi demon?

1:05:19 Speaker 2: And if she still was with us, would he even

1:05:20 Speaker 2: later maybe think it was something else, trying to figure

1:05:22 Speaker 2: out what the heck was this that I saw? Like,

1:05:24 Speaker 2: how do I explain what I saw?

1:05:25 Speaker 1: Right, she's throwing different lenses on d.

1:05:27 Speaker 2: And where's Bill Russo? You can see like he has

1:05:29 Speaker 2: his experience and he's not going to put the lens

1:05:31 Speaker 2: on it, like he just had the experience and he

1:05:33 Speaker 2: has the experience, and this is what it was, right.

1:05:35 Speaker 1: And it's a remarkable because that guy wants nothing to

1:05:41 Speaker 1: do with Like he doesn't want money, he doesn't want anything.

1:05:45 Speaker 1: He lives in Florida, like or maybe I shouldn't even

1:05:48 Speaker 1: say that, but he lives in he lives in the South,

1:05:51 Speaker 1: like he just wants to retire, like live his life. Yeah, right,

1:05:56 Speaker 1: but he does like telling the story right, and these

1:05:59 Speaker 1: things but they mimicked language, right, you know in ways

1:06:03 Speaker 1: that they were a little off right, like he want

1:06:07 Speaker 1: you right, we want you right. It was almost like mimicking.

1:06:13 Speaker 1: And I always asked him if he didn't have his

1:06:16 Speaker 1: dog with him that day, Granted, he probably wouldn't have

1:06:20 Speaker 1: been out there, he wouldn't be walking his dog because

1:06:26 Speaker 1: he was walking his dog. He did it every day.

1:06:29 Speaker 1: Arguably he wouldn't have been out there, but let's just say,

1:06:32 Speaker 1: and I asked him this point blank is, let's just

1:06:34 Speaker 1: say you were out there without the dog and you

1:06:37 Speaker 1: saw this. The dog kept him away because the dog

1:06:43 Speaker 1: was having a very visceral like I need to get

1:06:46 Speaker 1: away from this thing. If the dog wasn't there, what

1:06:51 Speaker 1: would you have done? And he said I would have

1:06:52 Speaker 1: walked right up to it. And he's like, I don't

1:06:55 Speaker 1: know if I would have been here today, I can't

1:06:57 Speaker 1: say that, but it was it was a pot lead

1:07:00 Speaker 1: cute like stuffed animal guy saying you want you and

1:07:04 Speaker 1: he's like, I was curious. But his dog, Stephanie, was like, no, dude,

1:07:11 Speaker 1: we got to get the out of here, right like thee.

1:07:16 Speaker 1: So he had that bio sensor his dog, and he

1:07:23 Speaker 1: trusted that dog enough to be like, Okay, let's get away.

1:07:28 Speaker 1: And who God they say say they lure you in.

1:07:32 Speaker 1: That's the lure, right, they lure you in, and then

1:07:36 Speaker 1: once you cross the threshold, no nobody knows what happens, right,

1:07:42 Speaker 1: So I find that interesting. It's like, what would have

1:07:45 Speaker 1: happened had Stephanie not been there? Samantha, Sorry, step not

1:07:51 Speaker 1: thank you dog? Right? So sorry Bill? Because he loves

1:07:57 Speaker 1: that dog.

1:07:59 Speaker 2: So if like, you know, the Puckwajies. It's interesting because

1:08:03 Speaker 2: you can trace where the term came from. It's not

1:08:07 Speaker 2: a local New England term. Originally, it's from the Ojibwa people,

1:08:11 Speaker 2: which is Native American group in the Upper Midwest, and

1:08:15 Speaker 2: it appears in their mythology and folklore, and it was

1:08:17 Speaker 2: that their folklore was kind of written about in the

1:08:20 Speaker 2: nineteenth century and Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, the poet, he wrote

1:08:25 Speaker 2: a song of Hiawatha. It's an epic poem. And this

1:08:28 Speaker 2: is in nineteenth century people like poetry more than they

1:08:30 Speaker 2: do now. So he wrote this poem about Ojibwa legends

1:08:32 Speaker 2: and the hero Hiawatha. It was super popular. And in

1:08:36 Speaker 2: the poem there's a section about Puckwadgies where puckwages, you know,

1:08:40 Speaker 2: kind of destroy this hero. They kill him and things

1:08:44 Speaker 2: like this. They not Hiawatha, but it's another character. They

1:08:46 Speaker 2: kill him, these little mischievous fairy like beings called Puckwadgies

1:08:52 Speaker 2: from ojib from the Ogibal lore. So Wadsworth Longfell lives

1:08:57 Speaker 2: in Cambridge, Massachusetts. He writes this poem. It's very popular. Later,

1:09:02 Speaker 2: probably the early twentieth century, or so somebody in southeastern Massachusetts.

1:09:09 Speaker 2: I remember it's Norton, in which town it is, writes

1:09:11 Speaker 2: a history of Norton, Massachusetts, and he takes the part

1:09:15 Speaker 2: of the song of Hiawatha about puckwadgies and he sets

1:09:17 Speaker 2: it in southeastern Massachusetts. Said, oh, this happened here in Norton, Massachusetts,

1:09:20 Speaker 2: even Norton or East in one of those towns. Right,

1:09:23 Speaker 2: he takes it and puts it there, said, there were

1:09:24 Speaker 2: puck wedgies here in Norton, Massachusetts, and they did this thing.

1:09:28 Speaker 2: It's really really he was just plagiarizing Longfellow's poem, but

1:09:31 Speaker 2: he puts it in there so that it becomes history

1:09:33 Speaker 2: in that area. In the nineteen thirties, then a woman

1:09:38 Speaker 2: named Elizabeth Renard. She's a writer. She's collecting folklore on

1:09:42 Speaker 2: Cape Cod. She collecting Cape Cod folklore. She talks with

1:09:46 Speaker 2: these wampanogh men to get some of their legends. They

1:09:49 Speaker 2: tell her stories about puckwadges and puckwadges and the giants

1:09:53 Speaker 2: right the most shop, who is this giant kind of

1:09:58 Speaker 2: demigogue figure who creates landscape features and things like this,

1:10:02 Speaker 2: And the little puquagis kill him and they don't well,

1:10:05 Speaker 2: they kill his children. Then he leaves the area, and

1:10:07 Speaker 2: so that's how kind of puquadgis kind of get to Massachusetts.

1:10:11 Speaker 2: There's a popular book called The Good Giant and the

1:10:14 Speaker 2: Bad puckwagis the children's book that came out in the eighties,

1:10:17 Speaker 2: and so from there kind of really spreads around the area.

1:10:21 Speaker 2: So that's how the term gets here. But if you

1:10:25 Speaker 2: look at like Native American legends from New England, there

1:10:28 Speaker 2: are lots of stories about little hairy creatures that live

1:10:31 Speaker 2: in the woods. They aren't called puckwagies because that's not

1:10:34 Speaker 2: that's the term is not from this area originally, but

1:10:36 Speaker 2: they have names like the makiawasag and things like this,

1:10:39 Speaker 2: which are hard terms for me to say, but generally

1:10:42 Speaker 2: they're like short covered, long hair, don't like to be seen,

1:10:46 Speaker 2: they'll steal things from you, they don't like to be

1:10:50 Speaker 2: spoken about, things like that. And on Cape Cod they

1:10:56 Speaker 2: have a leader of the woman figure who leads them

1:10:59 Speaker 2: with a woman named Granny Squat Granny squantt and that

1:11:02 Speaker 2: name actually comes from a very old Algonquin term for

1:11:06 Speaker 2: like the woman's goddess squat unit or something like that.

1:11:08 Speaker 2: She was the goddess of women. Uh so that name

1:11:12 Speaker 2: you can see has kind of come into the folklore. Also,

1:11:14 Speaker 2: Granny Squants is basically this goddess figure who's now kind

1:11:17 Speaker 2: of like a fairy figure kind of associated with Puck

1:11:20 Speaker 2: Wedgies a little bit, and she's the wife of mo

1:11:21 Speaker 2: Shop in some stories. Also. Wow, So it kind of

1:11:24 Speaker 2: it's it's old and I'm new at the same time.

1:11:27 Speaker 2: It's a mix of old, new native and kind of

1:11:29 Speaker 2: more traditional local American stuff all kind.

1:11:31 Speaker 1: Of right, It's like a blender of all.

1:11:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so people do see Puck Wedgies, right, so

1:11:37 Speaker 2: what are they seeing? I guess is always the question, Well,

1:11:38 Speaker 2: have you heard of like the Dennis Ovans, Yeah, the

1:11:41 Speaker 2: early it's a it's a small, small cre like Commonida.

1:11:48 Speaker 2: And it's like, is it crazy to think that something evolved,

1:11:53 Speaker 2: you know, in that way, and like do we just

1:11:56 Speaker 2: you know.

1:11:56 Speaker 1: It coexists. And then then the reason I bring up

1:12:00 Speaker 1: was just because like these are seen across the globe, right,

1:12:06 Speaker 1: and whatever word you want to use for paquaji this,

1:12:09 Speaker 1: whatever that word was, I can't pronounce that.

1:12:13 Speaker 2: Something like that.

1:12:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like abomina almost snowman yetti Bigfoot. It's they're

1:12:19 Speaker 1: the same thing, it's just a different name and a

1:12:22 Speaker 1: different culture, right, So I just find it interesting that

1:12:27 Speaker 1: that people do see these things across the globe and

1:12:31 Speaker 1: throughout a lot of our ancient cultures are where these

1:12:37 Speaker 1: beings kind of originate from, and it's disseminated through and

1:12:42 Speaker 1: it the legends persist. What do you think We'll take

1:12:48 Speaker 1: by one more question, then we'll take a break, finish out,

1:12:51 Speaker 1: and then we'll do the members only section. But what

1:12:56 Speaker 1: do you think it says about the people of New

1:12:58 Speaker 1: England that we've allowed these legends to thrive?

1:13:06 Speaker 2: Oh?

1:13:07 Speaker 1: Like, what does it say about people?

1:13:09 Speaker 2: What the story in New England? Like that they live

1:13:15 Speaker 2: someplace old? Right? I think people are kind of proud

1:13:20 Speaker 2: of some of the weirder stories, right, Like people in

1:13:23 Speaker 2: the Bridgewater Triangle are excited to live in the Bridgewater trying,

1:13:27 Speaker 2: but they will definitely tell you it's a spooky place

1:13:29 Speaker 2: to live and they love it, right, they love it.

1:13:31 Speaker 2: You people in Salem are excited to live in Salem,

1:13:33 Speaker 2: which city?

1:13:33 Speaker 1: They like it except on Halloween, except on Halloween.

1:13:36 Speaker 2: And I have friends, I have friends who even like

1:13:39 Speaker 2: it on Halloween. Uh, you know, it's New England has

1:13:45 Speaker 2: a reputation for weird things, right, like this idea, is

1:13:49 Speaker 2: New England weirder than other parts of the country. It's

1:13:52 Speaker 2: hard to like, how do you kind of quantify weirdness?

1:13:54 Speaker 2: But I do like to think that the three most

1:13:57 Speaker 2: prominent horror writers all came from New England. Edgar Allan

1:14:00 Speaker 2: Poe was born in Boston.

1:14:02 Speaker 1: HB.

1:14:02 Speaker 2: Lovecraft is born in Rhode Island. Stephen King's from Maine, right,

1:14:04 Speaker 2: And they're all from New England, and they all kind

1:14:06 Speaker 2: of like why do they all grow up here and

1:14:08 Speaker 2: have the weird experiences? I don't know, but they.

1:14:10 Speaker 1: Did, right, Well, I've never thought about that.

1:14:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, Poe didn't like Boston. He left when he was young,

1:14:14 Speaker 2: but he grew up here and was served in the military.

1:14:17 Speaker 2: Heroes he was on.

1:14:18 Speaker 1: Wow, I never thought about it.

1:14:20 Speaker 2: That I think is a station.

1:14:22 Speaker 1: You are absolutely right.

1:14:23 Speaker 2: Someone else wrote that and I have just remembered it.

1:14:26 Speaker 2: But yeah, so it's an interesting fact.

1:14:27 Speaker 1: That is a really interesting yeah, And.

1:14:31 Speaker 2: So I think that's what And I don't know if you.

1:14:33 Speaker 2: I think that's why kind of in a lot of

1:14:35 Speaker 2: the media, like New England towns are spooky, right, like

1:14:39 Speaker 2: like if you're watching the show Widow's Bay which is

1:14:40 Speaker 2: on right now.

1:14:42 Speaker 1: I didn't know if I could should bring this up

1:14:44 Speaker 1: to you.

1:14:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good, I mean not. I have only watched

1:14:46 Speaker 2: three episodes, so I haven't watched the whole show. But

1:14:48 Speaker 2: it's good. I like it is a main very interesting show.

1:14:53 Speaker 2: The fog rolling in and the sea hag and all

1:14:55 Speaker 2: this stuff and the curses and.

1:14:57 Speaker 1: The yeah death. Let's keep this for the members only

1:15:00 Speaker 1: section because I think Gene might have a hard out

1:15:02 Speaker 1: time today. But but do like a rapid fire, so

1:15:07 Speaker 1: say like it's such a good job.

1:15:08 Speaker 2: People in New England are I think, proud of the

1:15:11 Speaker 2: weirdness if it exists. They're proud of it, and they

1:15:13 Speaker 2: like the history. Some people like the history. Some people

1:15:15 Speaker 2: like the weird history. I think.

1:15:17 Speaker 1: So, why do you think people have such a hard

1:15:19 Speaker 1: time with the notion of beings from another planet UFOs?

1:15:30 Speaker 1: If the same civilism or the same society that when

1:15:36 Speaker 1: you're in court you have to swear on a Bible, right,

1:15:40 Speaker 1: which I find odd because the tradition, right, but you

1:15:47 Speaker 1: swear on a bible in the Bible they talk about,

1:15:52 Speaker 1: you know, all of these deity, the deity the angels

1:15:56 Speaker 1: and demon. You know, I think demon is an act.

1:16:00 Speaker 1: We mention isn't semantics at this point. But the ideas

1:16:04 Speaker 1: that come from the Bible, right, just inherently right, and

1:16:07 Speaker 1: these these these books of of of religion. We that

1:16:17 Speaker 1: holds like a certain weight. But once you start talking

1:16:21 Speaker 1: about life outside of earth or a UFO or Bigfoot

1:16:26 Speaker 1: or Puquadji, everyone's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no,

1:16:31 Speaker 1: you're crazy, You're you're one of those, You're a conspiracy.

1:16:36 Speaker 1: Why is it that we embrace it in one way

1:16:39 Speaker 1: and then completely stigmatize it in another.

1:16:42 Speaker 2: That's a good question. I don't know if I have

1:16:44 Speaker 2: an answer, but I will say that I think religion

1:16:46 Speaker 2: has like our.

1:16:49 Speaker 1: The world.

1:16:49 Speaker 2: Religions have like thousands of years of history behind them, right,

1:16:52 Speaker 2: and all this institutional structure behind them as well, right,

1:16:57 Speaker 2: And they are organized and they have certain goals like

1:17:01 Speaker 2: you know, morality, raising children certain way, raising families certain ways,

1:17:04 Speaker 2: and you may or may not agree with it, but

1:17:06 Speaker 2: that's what they have, right. So they're like organized and

1:17:08 Speaker 2: structured and they have this and they'll tell you how

1:17:10 Speaker 2: to live your life. Whereas I think UFOs, Bigfoot, Puquadgies

1:17:15 Speaker 2: are kind of random experiences people have which aren't folded

1:17:20 Speaker 2: into an overarching worldview. Maybe necessarily so that's just off

1:17:25 Speaker 2: the top of my head, but it's not as if.

1:17:27 Speaker 2: And a lot of some churches probably try to incorporate

1:17:31 Speaker 2: some them some don't you know, in some that they

1:17:33 Speaker 2: are just not concerned to one of them. I feel

1:17:34 Speaker 2: like the Catholic Church's like, you know, we're not really

1:17:36 Speaker 2: that concerned about aliens right now, that's not there. They're

1:17:38 Speaker 2: not okay concerned about it. You know, some churches maybe

1:17:41 Speaker 2: are more concerned about it.

1:17:43 Speaker 1: Right, But like I mean, are you a religious person?

1:17:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose in certain ways.

1:17:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you believe in a and you don't have

1:17:53 Speaker 1: the answer if you don't want to, Do you believe

1:17:55 Speaker 1: in a supreme being?

1:18:00 Speaker 2: Probably? Yeah? Probably, Yeah, I don't know. Let's yeah, team forces,

1:18:06 Speaker 2: let's say.

1:18:07 Speaker 1: But there's something, there is something, And do you think

1:18:12 Speaker 1: that people that may have grown out of that notion

1:18:19 Speaker 1: and are purely scientific and what they can see touch, right,

1:18:26 Speaker 1: do you think those are the people that have maybe

1:18:28 Speaker 1: lost touch with you know, how big and vast the

1:18:34 Speaker 1: universe is, how magical it is just and I.

1:18:38 Speaker 2: Don't know, I don't I think science is really important

1:18:47 Speaker 2: and really valid, and I think you should always take

1:18:51 Speaker 2: science into a company making important decisions. Actually, yeah, so

1:18:54 Speaker 2: I feel like that's my baseline of science.

1:18:56 Speaker 1: But it's either one or the other for people. Most

1:19:00 Speaker 1: of the time, it's either one or the other. You

1:19:02 Speaker 1: can be spiritual, but you can't, you know, it can't

1:19:06 Speaker 1: be bold. There's a marriage.

1:19:08 Speaker 2: I think there are scientists who believe in God certainly,

1:19:12 Speaker 2: and who go to churches and things like that, and

1:19:15 Speaker 2: certainly doctors, which is a very logical, science based thing.

1:19:19 Speaker 2: Many of them are religious. I don't think there's necessarily

1:19:21 Speaker 2: where you're talking about Jesuits, for instance, that whole branch

1:19:25 Speaker 2: of the Catholic Church is really like logic focus. We're

1:19:27 Speaker 2: looking at logic right where. And they're great, important teachers

1:19:31 Speaker 2: and academics. So I don't know. I don't think that

1:19:33 Speaker 2: dichotomy is as big as people say. I don't like

1:19:36 Speaker 2: to think of it as being a war between the two.

1:19:38 Speaker 2: Some people do, and I know sometimes I think people

1:19:42 Speaker 2: in sort of the paranormal community get upset when scientists

1:19:44 Speaker 2: like this is all you need more proof, You need

1:19:46 Speaker 2: more proof, And I think, you know, right, that's where

1:19:51 Speaker 2: some of that comes from they and the scientists do

1:19:52 Speaker 2: they just they have different standards of proof than other people,

1:19:55 Speaker 2: which is good.

1:19:56 Speaker 1: And then again it is good, but you also need

1:19:59 Speaker 1: to be able to work with these very very you know,

1:20:06 Speaker 1: not everything's exactly repeatable with these things, right, So you

1:20:10 Speaker 1: also have to give and take, right, It's a give

1:20:12 Speaker 1: and take. It can't be just one or the other,

1:20:14 Speaker 1: you know. I understand that the scientific method exists, right,

1:20:19 Speaker 1: but is it the end all be all for how

1:20:22 Speaker 1: science should be conducted. I think it should be evolved,

1:20:25 Speaker 1: it should continue to evolve, and I just think we

1:20:28 Speaker 1: need to leave open that some things aren't repeatable necessarily, right, right.

1:20:34 Speaker 2: And I would say for me, I think if I

1:20:36 Speaker 2: do think, like, I am more likely to listen to

1:20:39 Speaker 2: somebody who says that they saw Like if someone said, oh,

1:20:46 Speaker 2: I encountered a demon, They're like, oh, maybe they did

1:20:48 Speaker 2: encounter a demon, Versus someone who said, I encountered a

1:20:51 Speaker 2: physical alien being in a metallic spacesuit in my backyard.

1:20:58 Speaker 2: I mean, like, did you or me? Maybe that was

1:21:00 Speaker 2: something more spiritual? Like I think I think a lot

1:21:04 Speaker 2: of people, there's some people maybe are having spiritual experiences.

1:21:09 Speaker 2: Couch in the language of science right, they're seeing In

1:21:13 Speaker 2: the past, you would say that divine Being was an angel,

1:21:15 Speaker 2: and now I'm seeing it as a UFO. But I

1:21:18 Speaker 2: think that's more of a spiritual experience maybe than a physical,

1:21:20 Speaker 2: scientifically provable experience.

1:21:23 Speaker 1: To me, I agree, Yeah, I agree, because I've been

1:21:27 Speaker 1: in that situation where I felt that it was for

1:21:30 Speaker 1: just me right, where times slowed down right like time.

1:21:35 Speaker 1: Have you ever had have you ever had an experience

1:21:40 Speaker 1: like over experience?

1:21:42 Speaker 2: I think I told you when I was a kid,

1:21:43 Speaker 2: I told maybe told you a story on the phone

1:21:45 Speaker 2: that when I was a kid. I don't know how

1:21:47 Speaker 2: I was little. I was probably like five or six

1:21:50 Speaker 2: or something like that, very small, and I was playing

1:21:53 Speaker 2: in the backyard of my brother and my friend Wayne,

1:21:56 Speaker 2: who lived behind us. This was Harol in the seventies,

1:22:00 Speaker 2: and it's the summer outside, it's late at night, it's dark,

1:22:03 Speaker 2: and something bright comes down from the sky and it

1:22:06 Speaker 2: was like, I don't know what it was. We were

1:22:09 Speaker 2: terrified because we're like, oh my god, it's a UFO.

1:22:11 Speaker 2: It was like a big bright light came down behind

1:22:13 Speaker 2: a hill or something, and we were just like freaked out.

1:22:17 Speaker 2: So we ran inside the house. We were like, mah,

1:22:19 Speaker 2: we saw a UFO. We saw yf Like did you

1:22:21 Speaker 2: see a UFO? Like yes, we thought we did. But

1:22:24 Speaker 2: I mean it was definitely a feeling like oh wow,

1:22:28 Speaker 2: like holy crap, like here's this.

1:22:30 Speaker 1: How big was the light?

1:22:31 Speaker 2: It was big?

1:22:33 Speaker 1: Well, okay, give me could you block it out with

1:22:35 Speaker 1: your fist?

1:22:37 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I mean I had a small fist.

1:22:39 Speaker 2: I was a little kid back then, so right, but

1:22:41 Speaker 2: uh yeah, and you.

1:22:43 Speaker 1: Said it descended upon behind behind a hill, behind a hill.

1:22:46 Speaker 1: How close was that hill from you?

1:22:48 Speaker 2: I know, it's probably half a mile away or something.

1:22:50 Speaker 2: It's very hilly area. Haveril is what color was light white?

1:22:55 Speaker 1: It was a bright white.

1:22:56 Speaker 2: Bright white light. Yeah, so it could have been many things,

1:22:58 Speaker 2: but that's as a kid, we thought was UFO. And

1:23:01 Speaker 2: I was like so freaked out by it. I remember

1:23:03 Speaker 2: being quite scared, so fear enveloped. You, yes, because I

1:23:07 Speaker 2: was six years old and we had been watching all

1:23:09 Speaker 2: these spooky alien things in the seventies, you.

1:23:12 Speaker 1: Know, right. So it's hard to say whether media informed

1:23:18 Speaker 1: your decision to be scared or it was something that

1:23:21 Speaker 1: was caused externally by the experience itself.

1:23:25 Speaker 2: Right, And even my interpretation as a UFO was different

1:23:28 Speaker 2: caused by the media, right, and my brother and our friend,

1:23:31 Speaker 2: because that's what we thought would come down. If you

1:23:33 Speaker 2: see a bright thing coming down from the sky, it was.

1:23:35 Speaker 1: A UFO, right. So I had almost a completely opposite experience,

1:23:40 Speaker 1: whereas I saw mine in broad daylight, and when I

1:23:44 Speaker 1: ran into my mother, I said, I don't know what

1:23:48 Speaker 1: I just saw. She didn't put a box on it.

1:23:51 Speaker 1: She called it a UFO. She didn't say I saw God,

1:23:55 Speaker 1: she didn't say I didn't say anything at all. She

1:23:58 Speaker 1: believed me, and she said, you saw UFO. So she

1:24:03 Speaker 1: let me know that we didn't have all the answers.

1:24:08 Speaker 1: I think that was one of the best gifts she

1:24:10 Speaker 1: ever gave me. And we'll talk a little bit about

1:24:15 Speaker 1: her a little probably a little bit later, but there

1:24:17 Speaker 1: was one more experience where I was in the room

1:24:21 Speaker 1: and you know, she's watching and she's around. So but

1:24:27 Speaker 1: she really was a catalyst for you know, one of

1:24:30 Speaker 1: the things she always told me. I told you on

1:24:32 Speaker 1: the phone was you have to find your question, the

1:24:36 Speaker 1: question you want answered, and then you got to go

1:24:40 Speaker 1: get it right. Then that's happiness is you got to

1:24:45 Speaker 1: know what you want and you got to go get it.

1:24:49 Speaker 1: I always find it a little odd that she used

1:24:51 Speaker 1: the wording like that that I needed my question.

1:24:56 Speaker 2: Not an answer, but a question, and.

1:24:58 Speaker 1: To chase the answer right. She almost almost like she

1:25:02 Speaker 1: knew that what I was going to be chasing didn't

1:25:05 Speaker 1: have an exact answer right. So I always find that

1:25:09 Speaker 1: to be interesting. But yeah, she was a delightful woman

1:25:13 Speaker 1: and just didn't put a box on things. So when

1:25:17 Speaker 1: I ran into her, she was like, you saw UFO.

1:25:22 Speaker 1: She trusted me about eleven or twelve. So, and I

1:25:28 Speaker 1: didn't watch I was terrified of like X Files, all

1:25:32 Speaker 1: that stuff. I watched Disney. I can't even admit it.

1:25:36 Speaker 1: I believe I'm admitting this on camera. I watched Nickelodeon

1:25:39 Speaker 1: and Disney up until the year before I entered high

1:25:43 Speaker 1: school because I didn't like that kind of stuff on

1:25:45 Speaker 1: at nighttime. So I wasn't watching X File. My mom

1:25:52 Speaker 1: would watch it, but I had no real reference point.

1:25:55 Speaker 1: And when I saw what I saw, it was tree

1:25:57 Speaker 1: top level and it was oscillating. It was a classic

1:26:00 Speaker 1: silver disc came right over my head from the from

1:26:05 Speaker 1: south to north, you know, it might have been east

1:26:08 Speaker 1: to west, depending on what direction it really was. Coming,

1:26:11 Speaker 1: but for me, it was you know, relative to me.

1:26:15 Speaker 1: It came from the back of my head over me,

1:26:17 Speaker 1: so I caught it right about here and then it

1:26:21 Speaker 1: just it was oscillating and moved over me, and I

1:26:24 Speaker 1: just was locked. And I remember seeing the ball that

1:26:27 Speaker 1: I had just thrown because my eyes were facing up

1:26:30 Speaker 1: because I threw the ball up onto the top of

1:26:32 Speaker 1: the roof for it to come back down, so my

1:26:35 Speaker 1: eyes were already to the sky. And then this thing,

1:26:38 Speaker 1: just a glint caught my eye and then I was locked,

1:26:42 Speaker 1: and I remember hearing the ball go boom boom pass

1:26:44 Speaker 1: me and I just couldn't move, and it was like

1:26:47 Speaker 1: I was that experience was for me only. I've never

1:26:51 Speaker 1: seen any I've never I've tried to find people who

1:26:55 Speaker 1: say they saw something around that time, you know, twenty

1:26:59 Speaker 1: years ago, to do you anyone see anything in bill

1:27:01 Speaker 1: Ricca Handsome Air Force Base is right there, Dudley Rhodes

1:27:04 Speaker 1: right there, and there was also a raytheon the weapons

1:27:09 Speaker 1: development lab right there. So I just don't know, but

1:27:14 Speaker 1: it set me off. And I think these experiences, you

1:27:19 Speaker 1: either get to this community one way or another, trust

1:27:23 Speaker 1: in someone else's experiences, or you have your own right,

1:27:28 Speaker 1: But we'll take a break here. When we come back,

1:27:31 Speaker 1: we'll finish off. We'll finish off with the last hour,

1:27:35 Speaker 1: going through a lot of these really great stories, definitely

1:27:40 Speaker 1: having I'm having so much fun, so we can. I

1:27:45 Speaker 1: just want to say thank you to everyone who has

1:27:47 Speaker 1: been helping the show. The listening numbers are just fantastic

1:27:53 Speaker 1: on the YouTube and the video side. It's it's a

1:27:56 Speaker 1: steady growth. It's one that we're tackling. We're taking more seriously,

1:28:01 Speaker 1: you know, doing these in studio shows, which are absolutely amazing.

1:28:05 Speaker 1: I just feel electricity in the room. It's so much

1:28:07 Speaker 1: better than the remote stuff better and I get to

1:28:11 Speaker 1: hang out with Gene and uh the whole team behind

1:28:14 Speaker 1: the behind the cameras. So thank you to the to

1:28:18 Speaker 1: the legends behind the keys, Gene and Jess, to Peter

1:28:22 Speaker 1: here for for being here. You live in Brookline, Yeah,

1:28:25 Speaker 1: so you're still in mass Judas. Okay, Yeah, well i'd

1:28:29 Speaker 1: love we'd love to keep you know, we'll talk about

1:28:31 Speaker 1: this off here, but uh, thank you to everyone like

1:28:35 Speaker 1: share subscribe. We're gonna go to a quick break from

1:28:39 Speaker 1: the sponsors and then we'll be right back. All right,

1:28:44 Speaker 1: we're here, back from the break, I'm sitting with Peter

1:28:49 Speaker 1: muse Uh who is an author of multiple books and

1:28:54 Speaker 1: uh the New England Folklore blog, which I will have

1:28:59 Speaker 1: the links in the discrepe for all of it. Again,

1:29:03 Speaker 1: make sure to like, share, subscribe. It really is the

1:29:06 Speaker 1: best way you can help the show grow and get

1:29:08 Speaker 1: seen by a broader audience. That way, we can literally

1:29:11 Speaker 1: keep the lights on. And if you want to go

1:29:15 Speaker 1: a step further, please become a member or consider becoming

1:29:18 Speaker 1: a member. It's pay what you want. Everyone gets the

1:29:21 Speaker 1: same thing, early access, ad, free shows and bonus content

1:29:27 Speaker 1: with guests that we have here in studio, and you

1:29:30 Speaker 1: can also submit questions. All you have to do is

1:29:32 Speaker 1: email me and get the guest list for the month.

1:29:35 Speaker 1: So with that being said, let's jump back into the episode.

1:29:38 Speaker 1: Peter again, I've been having such a fun discussion with

1:29:41 Speaker 1: you so far. Your amazing wealth of knowledge, so I

1:29:44 Speaker 1: really want to start tapping into that. Okay, okay, I'm

1:29:49 Speaker 1: going to start here. What do you think is the

1:29:51 Speaker 1: most underrated New England legend?

1:29:54 Speaker 2: Oh? Wow, underrated New England Legend? These are tough questions.

1:30:01 Speaker 2: I really like the pig Man of Northfield, Vermont. See

1:30:04 Speaker 2: I see your face. You don't even know this one.

1:30:05 Speaker 2: The pig Man. He's amazing, right. This story I first

1:30:09 Speaker 2: learned about from a guy named Joseph Cicro. Joseph Citral

1:30:12 Speaker 2: lives in Vermont. He writes really good folklore books. He's

1:30:14 Speaker 2: been writing them for years, and so in nineteen ninety

1:30:19 Speaker 2: nine he was traveling around Vermont. He was in Northfield.

1:30:21 Speaker 2: He was giving a presentation and he said, oh, does

1:30:23 Speaker 2: anybody in this audience have any weird stories they can share?

1:30:26 Speaker 2: And this guy named Jeff Hatch stood up and said,

1:30:28 Speaker 2: I have a story about the pig Man. Everyone the

1:30:30 Speaker 2: audience was like, oh, yeah, the pig Man. Joseph Sitro

1:30:32 Speaker 2: was like, what the hell is the pig Man. So

1:30:35 Speaker 2: Jeff Hatch tells the story how in the seventies he's

1:30:39 Speaker 2: at a high school dance and these kids come running

1:30:44 Speaker 2: in from there into the gymnasm. They're out back smoke

1:30:47 Speaker 2: and said, oh my god, we're smoking out back by

1:30:49 Speaker 2: the sand pit, and we saw this hideous creature. It

1:30:52 Speaker 2: had a human body and it had like a pig

1:30:55 Speaker 2: what And so Jeff Hash and the other kids right

1:30:57 Speaker 2: outside try to find it. They don't see the pig man.

1:30:59 Speaker 2: They see it looks like the bushes have been knocked

1:31:01 Speaker 2: down by something that was like running away into the trees,

1:31:04 Speaker 2: so they freaked out. So anyway, other people in the

1:31:07 Speaker 2: audience also tell stories about the pig Man as well,

1:31:10 Speaker 2: and so there were a few different specific legends about

1:31:14 Speaker 2: the pig Man, like he said to live in a

1:31:17 Speaker 2: place called the Devil's wash Bowl, which Tony, my husband,

1:31:21 Speaker 2: and I have been to visit.

1:31:22 Speaker 1: Uh.

1:31:22 Speaker 2: So you go up to Northfield, Vermont, and then there

1:31:26 Speaker 2: is this road called the Devil's Washbowl Road, which when

1:31:30 Speaker 2: we went at the sign had been stolen, because obviously

1:31:32 Speaker 2: that's a cool sign you want to have in your

1:31:33 Speaker 2: dorm or whatever if you're a student. So you drive

1:31:36 Speaker 2: on this road and it's very rural, and I asked

1:31:41 Speaker 2: her sister, how will you know when you hear the

1:31:43 Speaker 2: Devil's Washball. He's like, oh, you'll know. So at first

1:31:45 Speaker 2: you pass the little bits of wild I'm gonna say, oh,

1:31:47 Speaker 2: is this the Devil's Washbowl? No, because Devil's Washball is

1:31:50 Speaker 2: like a huge rocky waterfall cascading down to this like

1:31:55 Speaker 2: bowl like space bound down at the bottom of the

1:31:58 Speaker 2: road spelled the pig Man lives down there. In a cave,

1:32:03 Speaker 2: and I was tempted to go down into the washbowl myself,

1:32:06 Speaker 2: but it was like a long climb and there's a

1:32:08 Speaker 2: lot of poison ivy and either I end up with

1:32:09 Speaker 2: a broken leg or poison ivy, so I didn't do it.

1:32:12 Speaker 2: But we were up there and it was very quiet.

1:32:14 Speaker 2: There's nobody up there, and we noticed this big piece

1:32:18 Speaker 2: of animal scat on the road suddenly, like a big

1:32:21 Speaker 2: piece of animal poop basically on the road, Like, okay,

1:32:24 Speaker 2: either it's a bear or it's the pig Man, and

1:32:28 Speaker 2: either way, we don't want to see what it made it.

1:32:30 Speaker 2: So we got in the car and we left. So

1:32:32 Speaker 2: the pig Man supposed to lives in the Devil's wash Bowl,

1:32:35 Speaker 2: but there are various legends about his origin. So some

1:32:38 Speaker 2: people say that the Pigment is like the offspring of

1:32:40 Speaker 2: a lonely pig farmer and a pig, which, of course,

1:32:44 Speaker 2: scientifically we know that's not how nature works, right, right,

1:32:46 Speaker 2: that's probably not true. There's a story that he was

1:32:49 Speaker 2: a kid named Sam Harris, and he went out the

1:32:57 Speaker 2: night before Halloween to cause mischief in Northfield and never

1:33:01 Speaker 2: came home. He didn't come home for like two years,

1:33:05 Speaker 2: and then when he finally does come home, like two

1:33:06 Speaker 2: years later, the night before Halloween, his mother is at

1:33:09 Speaker 2: home like, oh, poor Sam, we haven't seen him in

1:33:11 Speaker 2: two years. She hears this noise and she thinks, like

1:33:13 Speaker 2: a raccoon is in the garbage can. So she goes

1:33:15 Speaker 2: out to look. But it's not a raccoon. It's her son.

1:33:17 Speaker 2: He's naked, he's covered her hair, and he's eating like

1:33:20 Speaker 2: garbage and he has these insane, flaming red eyes. She

1:33:24 Speaker 2: is freaked out, and according Glennen, she later kills herself

1:33:27 Speaker 2: because she's so distarts seeing her son in this best

1:33:29 Speaker 2: she'll state, right, So she has a good story. It's

1:33:31 Speaker 2: very good story. And so some people say, this kid

1:33:35 Speaker 2: Sam Harris has become the pig Man. He's now like

1:33:38 Speaker 2: out there in the woods doing his thing because maybe

1:33:41 Speaker 2: that night before Halloween he did some sort of ritual

1:33:44 Speaker 2: or something and is now possessed by whatever spirit. There's

1:33:49 Speaker 2: also stories about people going camping near the Devil's wash

1:33:52 Speaker 2: bowl and being attacked by the pig Man and things

1:33:54 Speaker 2: like this. Now these are all stories, probably, but they're

1:33:57 Speaker 2: great stories, right, And with a pig's head, who's a

1:34:01 Speaker 2: monster living in the woods terrorizing people is just like

1:34:03 Speaker 2: that is like folklore gold, Like that's really gold, really

1:34:07 Speaker 2: really good, really really good. So if you ever go

1:34:09 Speaker 2: to the Devil's wa Washbawl, I will say it is

1:34:10 Speaker 2: in the middle of the woods. It's a little spooky

1:34:14 Speaker 2: and like, you don't want to climb down those rocks.

1:34:16 Speaker 2: It doesn't look safe to me. But I'm a city

1:34:18 Speaker 2: person that I've said, so I must you'll probably get

1:34:20 Speaker 2: ticks on you.

1:34:21 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a crazy one. Yeah, yeah, that's a

1:34:24 Speaker 1: crazy one. Yeah. What do you think The strangest story

1:34:28 Speaker 1: that you've ever researched is?

1:34:30 Speaker 2: Oh, oh, you know this one? I haven't researched, but

1:34:33 Speaker 2: I found it in a book and unfortunately I don't

1:34:35 Speaker 2: remember the name of the book, and I don't you

1:34:38 Speaker 2: remember the name of the author. But it's a bigfoot

1:34:40 Speaker 2: story from Connecticut. It's really good. Uh. A woman is

1:34:44 Speaker 2: in her backyard hanging up laundry on her clothes line. Right,

1:34:48 Speaker 2: she's hanging up for laundry. It's a beautiful day's hanging

1:34:50 Speaker 2: up for laundry, totally dry, and suddenly a black helicopter

1:34:53 Speaker 2: appears above her house, treads flying, flying, flying. It comes

1:34:57 Speaker 2: down and who comes out of the helicopter but Bigfoot,

1:35:02 Speaker 2: and Bigfoot comes the clothesline, pulls her clothes off the clothesline,

1:35:07 Speaker 2: throws them on the ground. The ones like, what are

1:35:09 Speaker 2: you doing? Leave my clothes alone. Then Bigfoot gets back

1:35:11 Speaker 2: in the black helicopter and flies away, like what that's

1:35:16 Speaker 2: one of my favorite crazy stories, Like that is an

1:35:17 Speaker 2: insane story. Well, and I don't know why Bigfoot's in

1:35:21 Speaker 2: the helicopter, why you cared about her laundry, But that's

1:35:22 Speaker 2: the story.

1:35:23 Speaker 1: Well, I might say this, Yes, gentlemen that were or pilots,

1:35:30 Speaker 1: pilots specifically that were flying black ops technology at the time.

1:35:37 Speaker 1: It was like the SR seventy one Blackbird, if they

1:35:41 Speaker 1: were passing a commercial airliner. Yeah, in this classified, you know,

1:35:47 Speaker 1: under development or secretive government plane, they would put a

1:35:54 Speaker 1: gorilla mask because then anyone in the commercial airline or

1:35:58 Speaker 1: in the you know, in the two seater airplane that

1:36:05 Speaker 1: spotted them. Oh I saw this futuristic.

1:36:11 Speaker 2: Gorilla and people like, no, you're crazy, that can't be true.

1:36:14 Speaker 1: Right, So my my first inkling is to jump there. Right. However,

1:36:21 Speaker 1: what Bigfoot in a helicopter?

1:36:24 Speaker 2: It's good. I wish I can remember the name of

1:36:26 Speaker 2: the book and the author. That's a weird So.

1:36:29 Speaker 1: Bigfoot just came down, attacked her laundry and then went

1:36:32 Speaker 1: repelled up.

1:36:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, he flew back into the helicopter.

1:36:34 Speaker 1: God, he really was pissed off. She used a certain brand.

1:36:37 Speaker 2: I guess maybe it was allergic to it.

1:36:38 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a weird one.

1:36:41 Speaker 1: But yeah, pilots of like the SR seventy one Blackbird

1:36:46 Speaker 1: and and the other classified like Lockheed like things they

1:36:51 Speaker 1: would put gorilla mass on to discredit anyone who saw them.

1:36:55 Speaker 1: So interesting thought. Interesting thought, is at story that you

1:37:00 Speaker 1: can't believe that isn't more famous than New England given

1:37:04 Speaker 1: what is famous? Like, is there a story from this

1:37:07 Speaker 1: area that you think maybe doesn't get as much merit?

1:37:11 Speaker 2: Oh that is not what was widely known or something.

1:37:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not widely known that maybe should be.

1:37:17 Speaker 2: I like that Pigment's story. I like some of the

1:37:25 Speaker 2: witchcraft stories from the like nineteenth century. Like if you

1:37:30 Speaker 2: look in nineteenth century town histories and things, often they

1:37:33 Speaker 2: have a chapter of like, these are the weird things

1:37:35 Speaker 2: our ancestors believe, right, the weird things that were done

1:37:38 Speaker 2: in this town? In the past, and usually you'll find

1:37:41 Speaker 2: some witch stories, some ghost stories. And I found in

1:37:45 Speaker 2: the town of Westerly, Rhode Island, there's a great story

1:37:48 Speaker 2: about these two young women. It's like are staying at

1:37:54 Speaker 2: this house in the summertime. It's them an older woman

1:37:57 Speaker 2: who owns the house or in the house, and the

1:37:59 Speaker 2: two young women board. It's the summer. It's like eighteen whatever,

1:38:03 Speaker 2: fifty five. They don't have anything to do. So the

1:38:05 Speaker 2: two young women like, oh, let's do a little magic

1:38:07 Speaker 2: to try to laura husband right. And so there's certain

1:38:12 Speaker 2: spell you see in old folklore books where usually women

1:38:16 Speaker 2: take a ball of yarn, they throw it over their shoulder,

1:38:19 Speaker 2: and usually they throw it into a well or down

1:38:21 Speaker 2: into a cellar, right, and then they pull the yarn

1:38:25 Speaker 2: up and as they pull the on up and say, wind, unwind, unwind,

1:38:30 Speaker 2: my true love to find, Unwind, unwind, my true love

1:38:33 Speaker 2: to find, unwind, unwind, my true love to find. Right.

1:38:36 Speaker 2: So you do this little spell, and then your husband

1:38:39 Speaker 2: or the person you're gonna marry is supposed to show up, right,

1:38:41 Speaker 2: So it's sort of like a way to find out

1:38:43 Speaker 2: who you're gonna marry. You throw this ball of yarn over.

1:38:45 Speaker 2: You're surely to do this little spell, and your husband's

1:38:47 Speaker 2: supposed to do it. You're supposed to appear at some point.

1:38:51 Speaker 2: So these two women at this big house in western Lee,

1:38:53 Speaker 2: Rhode Island, are board. They go out, they throw the

1:38:55 Speaker 2: ball of yarn down the well and they pull it up,

1:38:57 Speaker 2: and you know, I wind I wind my love to find.

1:39:00 Speaker 2: I wind I whind my true love to find. Right,

1:39:02 Speaker 2: that's the correct word. I wind I wind my true

1:39:04 Speaker 2: love to find. So doing this, nothing happens, like, Okay,

1:39:07 Speaker 2: this is just a fun game whatever. So then as

1:39:12 Speaker 2: they're going into the house, they see something coming out

1:39:14 Speaker 2: of the woods towards them, and it's just like this

1:39:17 Speaker 2: big humanoid thing with claws on its hands and like

1:39:21 Speaker 2: a big head with flaming eyes and giant fangs. And

1:39:25 Speaker 2: the women are terrified, like, oh my god, what did

1:39:27 Speaker 2: we do. We're messing around with magic and accident, we've

1:39:30 Speaker 2: summoned a demon. And so they run into the house

1:39:33 Speaker 2: and they lock the doors, and the demon or whatever

1:39:36 Speaker 2: it is is pounding the door has to come and

1:39:37 Speaker 2: get ah me in type of thing that two women

1:39:40 Speaker 2: are terrified. The owner of the house, who's the like

1:39:45 Speaker 2: married to the older woman. Finally he's coming up and

1:39:47 Speaker 2: he sees the demon pounding there, and he says a prayer,

1:39:49 Speaker 2: and the demon runs off into the woods, and the

1:39:52 Speaker 2: older woman in the house is so tart trauma that

1:39:55 Speaker 2: she actually has a heart attack and perishes, according to

1:39:57 Speaker 2: the story, right by these two girls playing with magic.

1:39:59 Speaker 2: So that's that's the story. There's a little bit of

1:40:01 Speaker 2: a sequel where a neighbor a sequel, A little bit

1:40:04 Speaker 2: of a sequel where a neighbor says, you know what,

1:40:09 Speaker 2: he comes up with a story like fifty years later

1:40:10 Speaker 2: when he's much always says, you know, I was playing

1:40:12 Speaker 2: a prank on those two women. I knew what they

1:40:14 Speaker 2: were doing. And I put like a pumpkin on my head,

1:40:17 Speaker 2: and I had like a bare skin on me, and

1:40:18 Speaker 2: I was pretending to be a demon. And I didn't

1:40:21 Speaker 2: realize it would be so traumatic and terrifying for everybody,

1:40:23 Speaker 2: But I was the actual demon. Right That's that's in

1:40:26 Speaker 2: the history of Westerly Rhode Island. I found another version

1:40:29 Speaker 2: of that story in a book of a Native American

1:40:33 Speaker 2: folklore from Massachusetts called Spirit of the New England Tribes.

1:40:40 Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of the author. He's an

1:40:41 Speaker 2: anthropologist wrote it, so you collect all these Native American stories.

1:40:45 Speaker 2: So it's a Wampanog story from Martha's vineyard where there's

1:40:47 Speaker 2: a Wampanogg minister. He's a you know Christian ministers.

1:40:50 Speaker 1: Are you seeing a theme by the way, I am.

1:40:53 Speaker 2: Well, well, let me finish the story the thing to

1:40:54 Speaker 2: see what theme is. So he he has three young daughters.

1:40:58 Speaker 2: He's like, I have to go in business. You just

1:41:00 Speaker 2: stay in the house and don't get in any trouble.

1:41:02 Speaker 2: The girl's like, sure, dad, well won't get into any

1:41:03 Speaker 2: trouble at all. So he goes away for his business.

1:41:07 Speaker 2: And there's three young girls like, okay, now, let's do

1:41:08 Speaker 2: a little magic see who our husband will be. And

1:41:11 Speaker 2: their magic somehow doesn't involve with the yarn, but involved

1:41:14 Speaker 2: like hanging their undergarments by the fireplace or something very

1:41:17 Speaker 2: racy for the eighteen hundreds, right, So they do their

1:41:20 Speaker 2: little magic spell and then the same thing happens, like

1:41:23 Speaker 2: they have this demon appear, which is pounding. They'll try

1:41:26 Speaker 2: to gain ack like, oh no, we've someone a demon

1:41:28 Speaker 2: by a mistake with our magic. And their father comes home.

1:41:31 Speaker 2: He's like, he says, the Lord's prayer and the demon

1:41:33 Speaker 2: runs away. And in this case there's no sequel where

1:41:35 Speaker 2: a neighbor says like, oh, it was really me in

1:41:38 Speaker 2: this case, really it just was a demon outright, Like

1:41:40 Speaker 2: this was just a demon. So it's like the same

1:41:42 Speaker 2: story two versions. One of them has sort of a

1:41:45 Speaker 2: rationalization like, oh, it's just a neighbor in a disguise.

1:41:48 Speaker 2: In one version where there's no rational relation, No, it

1:41:51 Speaker 2: was just a demon trying to get these And then

1:41:52 Speaker 2: you can see like their warnings like young women, do

1:41:55 Speaker 2: not mess around with magic. Magic is bad for you,

1:41:57 Speaker 2: don't play with it type of thing.

1:41:59 Speaker 1: I was almost going to say, because that's one of

1:42:01 Speaker 1: the themes I picked up on, is this cautionary tail,

1:42:05 Speaker 1: right of trying to either glimpse your future.

1:42:13 Speaker 2: Or influence influence it.

1:42:16 Speaker 1: But the also the other thing is coastal towns.

1:42:20 Speaker 2: Well, so much coastal towns in New England.

1:42:23 Speaker 1: Right right, But water, that water is always there. And

1:42:29 Speaker 1: that's the thing that we see in the UFO community.

1:42:31 Speaker 1: In these UFO cases, a lot of either proximy proximity

1:42:36 Speaker 1: to either nuclear or water or both.

1:42:41 Speaker 2: Have you looked into this water.

1:42:44 Speaker 1: Well, they need cooling, just like these data centers are

1:42:48 Speaker 1: going to need cooling with water. So I'm wondering, you

1:42:51 Speaker 1: know what we might see there because.

1:42:54 Speaker 2: That oh yeah, yeah, yeah right. So George's Islands if

1:43:05 Speaker 2: people don't know, Yeah, So George's Island, So if people

1:43:09 Speaker 2: don't know, is a island out in Boston Harbor which

1:43:13 Speaker 2: has a large fort on it, a large fort which

1:43:16 Speaker 2: like a five sided fort or something, Fort Warren, and

1:43:20 Speaker 2: you can go there. You take a ferry out. It's great.

1:43:22 Speaker 2: You can have a picnic, and it's got tunnels and things.

1:43:24 Speaker 2: It's very cool. If you've never been to Georgia's Island,

1:43:25 Speaker 2: I highly recommend it. And a lot of legends about

1:43:30 Speaker 2: George's Island. There's an interesting one. We'll get to the

1:43:32 Speaker 2: White Lady in a second, but there's one I love about.

1:43:35 Speaker 2: You know, in then, like eighteen hundred or seventeen hundred

1:43:40 Speaker 2: people are stationed out there. Soldiers are stationed out there

1:43:42 Speaker 2: in that fort, and one of them goes into Boston

1:43:44 Speaker 2: to get a hair cut. So he gets his hair

1:43:46 Speaker 2: all styled up and they put like this greasy stuff

1:43:50 Speaker 2: that smells really sweet in his hair, like you know,

1:43:52 Speaker 2: like a gel or something. Whenever you would have in

1:43:54 Speaker 2: the seventeen hundred. They gell his hair back with all

1:43:56 Speaker 2: this sweet smelling stuff. He goes back to the fort

1:43:59 Speaker 2: on George's Island. He falls asleep and then he wakes

1:44:03 Speaker 2: up and all his hair has been eaten off by

1:44:04 Speaker 2: rats who are attracted by the smell of the greasy

1:44:07 Speaker 2: stuff that, oh, this smell is really good, We're gonna

1:44:08 Speaker 2: eat it. So I don't think that story is true,

1:44:10 Speaker 2: which is a good story. So the White Lady, though,

1:44:12 Speaker 2: was a ghost who haunts George's Island. I've also heard

1:44:17 Speaker 2: that she's sometimes a lady in black there. But she

1:44:22 Speaker 2: supposedly her husband was a Civil War prisoner, like he

1:44:28 Speaker 2: was a Confederate soldier. He is brought to that island

1:44:32 Speaker 2: as a prisoner because they were keeping prisoners there, and

1:44:35 Speaker 2: she decides that she's gonna try to break him free,

1:44:38 Speaker 2: and so she ghosts the island and you know, tries

1:44:43 Speaker 2: to break him free. She doesn't succeed, I don't think,

1:44:45 Speaker 2: and she's hanged and he's hanged, right, and so her

1:44:47 Speaker 2: ghost still haunts the island. Some people say it's a

1:44:50 Speaker 2: man disguised as a woman that tried to do it

1:44:52 Speaker 2: and was hanged and still haunts, but I guess is

1:44:55 Speaker 2: in drag or something like that. So but ghost and drag,

1:44:59 Speaker 2: why not? But supposely there is a ghost there. White

1:45:03 Speaker 2: ladies are interesting because that's a common form of ghosts

1:45:08 Speaker 2: to see a white lady, woman in white, women in white,

1:45:11 Speaker 2: and you know, people are often like, is it a

1:45:14 Speaker 2: ghost or is a woman in white something else? Entirely.

1:45:18 Speaker 2: I was just reading about like Walnut Cemetery in Havel

1:45:20 Speaker 2: where I grew up, which is haunted by a woman

1:45:22 Speaker 2: in white, but no one knows exactly who the woman

1:45:25 Speaker 2: in white is, Like she's there, but whose ghost is she?

1:45:28 Speaker 2: Is she even a ghost? Or she just like the

1:45:31 Speaker 2: guardian spirit of this particular cemetery or something like that,

1:45:33 Speaker 2: And so was the woman in white maybe like the

1:45:35 Speaker 2: guardian spirit of Georgia's Island.

1:45:37 Speaker 1: It's hard to say, right, right.

1:45:39 Speaker 2: Because women in white show up all over the world.

1:45:41 Speaker 1: Back to widows. Yeah, right, it's just it's interesting, Yeah,

1:45:48 Speaker 1: it really is interesting. And Bridgewater Triangle has a yeah

1:45:51 Speaker 1: the lady in white. Lots of places, lots of towns

1:45:56 Speaker 1: have that has a variation on that, right, So definitely

1:46:00 Speaker 1: something that's very very interesting. But yeah, I mean I

1:46:08 Speaker 1: know that maybe UFO isn't really like something you focus

1:46:11 Speaker 1: on super like yeah, in trick it ly in, But

1:46:17 Speaker 1: do you have any UFO stories that you like from

1:46:21 Speaker 1: this area.

1:46:23 Speaker 2: Betty and Barney Hill is interesting to me, Like that

1:46:25 Speaker 2: UFO story is a classic.

1:46:29 Speaker 1: Tell it.

1:46:30 Speaker 2: I won't do a great job at it. I'll get

1:46:31 Speaker 2: the dates wrong. But Betty and Barney Hill are a

1:46:34 Speaker 2: mixed race couple, right. Betty is white, Barney is black.

1:46:37 Speaker 2: They're both involved in the Civil rights movement. They lived

1:46:39 Speaker 2: in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, early nineteen sixties. They're driving back

1:46:43 Speaker 2: from Niagara Falls, Canada someplace yep, and they're driving south

1:46:49 Speaker 2: down Route ninety three in New Hampshire and they see

1:46:52 Speaker 2: a light in the sky and at first I think

1:46:55 Speaker 2: it maybe it's a star or an airplane, but the

1:46:57 Speaker 2: light keeps following them, and finally it lands in front

1:47:00 Speaker 2: of them and it is a craft. And then they

1:47:02 Speaker 2: lose all memory and the next thing you know, they're

1:47:05 Speaker 2: driving further south and they've missed like several hours of time.

1:47:09 Speaker 2: They're kind of haunted by this image that they've seen

1:47:13 Speaker 2: of this craft, also by the amount of time they've lost,

1:47:16 Speaker 2: and they go to a hypnotherapist who helps them to

1:47:21 Speaker 2: remember what happened to them, and they remember being brought

1:47:24 Speaker 2: up into this craft and the things that happened to them, examinations,

1:47:27 Speaker 2: things like that, and so it's sort of the first

1:47:29 Speaker 2: real UFO abductee narrative, I think you get. And so

1:47:32 Speaker 2: they're very famous for.

1:47:33 Speaker 1: That, especially being an interracial couple right during the Civil

1:47:38 Speaker 1: rights it's like, why bring that attention on, right, Why

1:47:44 Speaker 1: you don't want a spotlight.

1:47:45 Speaker 2: On And they would tell it, and they were telling

1:47:47 Speaker 2: the story in like churches and places like that, and

1:47:49 Speaker 2: no one's really giving it much credence until it was

1:47:51 Speaker 2: written up I think in the Boston Herald.

1:47:53 Speaker 1: Yes, it was that. It was never supposed to make

1:47:56 Speaker 1: the paper, right, They wanted to keep it on the

1:47:58 Speaker 1: down low, right, right, They didn't want to put that

1:48:01 Speaker 1: spotlight on themselves. And then the story gets leaked to

1:48:05 Speaker 1: a reporter, then it runs in one of the papers,

1:48:09 Speaker 1: and then it explodes.

1:48:11 Speaker 2: It's a book and it's a movie. Yeah, this stuff.

1:48:14 Speaker 1: I actually know that they. I know they're Kathleen Martin.

1:48:18 Speaker 1: I know their their ancestor who was a kid at

1:48:22 Speaker 1: the time and remembers because she's now older, herself and

1:48:30 Speaker 1: the so Barney. Barney was always quite reserved with what

1:48:35 Speaker 1: he was willing to say, right, but as as it

1:48:40 Speaker 1: drew near and near to the end, he opened up

1:48:44 Speaker 1: a little bit and he.

1:48:45 Speaker 2: Died quite he quite pretty young versus Betty, he'll live

1:48:48 Speaker 2: for much long.

1:48:49 Speaker 3: Like for.

1:48:52 Speaker 2: I don't know if you watched American Horror Story that show,

1:48:56 Speaker 2: but the second season is set in an insane asylum

1:48:58 Speaker 2: in Massachusetts and one of the inmates is a white

1:49:03 Speaker 2: man whose black wife. They both experience a UFO experience,

1:49:08 Speaker 2: and so it's sort of like an inverse of Betty

1:49:10 Speaker 2: and Barney Hill, but they put it in this show.

1:49:12 Speaker 2: So it's really interesting in that I thought that they

1:49:14 Speaker 2: were kind of drawing on that a little bit there.

1:49:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually love that's when they do that kind

1:49:18 Speaker 1: of stuff. Yeah, when they pull from real world lore

1:49:20 Speaker 1: and either put a spin on it, or it seems

1:49:24 Speaker 1: like they did. I'll be honest. They probably did that

1:49:27 Speaker 1: to for IP because because there are movies being made

1:49:34 Speaker 1: about it. Obama's making a Betty and Barney Hill movie

1:49:37 Speaker 1: documentary and there's another one being worked on. So there

1:49:41 Speaker 1: was probably some contractual like thing where they had to,

1:49:44 Speaker 1: like it's almost like whatever.

1:49:46 Speaker 2: And ben Betty Hill, interestingly, I mean she saw the

1:49:49 Speaker 2: star map.

1:49:50 Speaker 1: Yes, she saw this star map. So while in the

1:49:54 Speaker 1: craft after regression, she talks about this star map that

1:49:58 Speaker 1: she saw, and they showed her where they were from,

1:50:04 Speaker 1: and then she drew it out. She drew the star

1:50:07 Speaker 1: map later on after you know, after regression and all this,

1:50:11 Speaker 1: and an astronomer worked to verify if there was any

1:50:19 Speaker 1: known constantly starr and they found a perfect match. What

1:50:26 Speaker 1: was it? Do you remember? The star system was Ata Reticuli.

1:50:30 Speaker 1: It was Zeta Reticuli. Was an exist the way she

1:50:33 Speaker 1: drew it, And there's no way at this time she

1:50:36 Speaker 1: would have knowledge of astronomy like that of deep astronomy

1:50:40 Speaker 1: like that, because it wasn't until years later that they

1:50:43 Speaker 1: were able to use the technology to like pinpoint like

1:50:46 Speaker 1: put her drawing on top of it and it matched

1:50:49 Speaker 1: every single thing that they showed her.

1:50:52 Speaker 2: I was going to say that she after you know,

1:50:59 Speaker 2: Barney died and she sort of became like a somewhat

1:51:02 Speaker 2: low key celebrity and like paranormal UFO experience world right, Yes,

1:51:06 Speaker 2: and she there's a really weird book called The Psychic

1:51:09 Speaker 2: Sasquatch by Jack Laprositis Psychic Sasquatch, where it's about people

1:51:15 Speaker 2: who have like psychic connection to sasquatch and talk to

1:51:17 Speaker 2: them and things like that. But there's a big section

1:51:19 Speaker 2: in it where it's a Betty Hill tells Bigfoot stories

1:51:23 Speaker 2: from Massachusetts, which is wild, Like these are stories that

1:51:27 Speaker 2: people came to Betty Hill because they knew who she

1:51:30 Speaker 2: was and they knew that she'd be a sympathetic ear

1:51:32 Speaker 2: to their weird stories. And so people were telling her

1:51:34 Speaker 2: these big foot stories that took place in Massachusetts. And

1:51:37 Speaker 2: Betty Hill then tells them to Jack Lapprisiitis and he

1:51:40 Speaker 2: puts them in his book Psychic Sasquatch. So if you

1:51:42 Speaker 2: ever see a copy of that, it's not it hasn't

1:51:43 Speaker 2: been in print for a long time. But that's always

1:51:45 Speaker 2: an interesting and weird book.

1:51:47 Speaker 1: Interesting.

1:51:48 Speaker 2: And so she talks about like there was like a

1:51:51 Speaker 2: you know, a woman sees footprints behind her house. A

1:51:55 Speaker 2: lot of it takes place near Springfield, Massachusetts. I can't

1:51:59 Speaker 2: remember the exact time, and agon woman plays like that

1:52:01 Speaker 2: button near Springfield, a woman sees like a big a

1:52:04 Speaker 2: UFO landing site in the woods behind her house. Uh

1:52:10 Speaker 2: So she's like the whatever like the big burned area

1:52:12 Speaker 2: or something on the ground. And then she's one gigantic

1:52:14 Speaker 2: big footprint outside the UFO, like Bigfoot put one foot out.

1:52:18 Speaker 2: It was like, oh, it's too cold or something getting

1:52:20 Speaker 2: back in the UFO, right, And so she sees this

1:52:25 Speaker 2: and she wants to get get she sees it, She

1:52:28 Speaker 2: goes back company thinks, oh, that's weird. I want to

1:52:29 Speaker 2: get a plaster cast. She goes to take a plaster

1:52:32 Speaker 2: cast and she's a black helicopter and she freaks out

1:52:34 Speaker 2: and goes home. Right, Like that's that type of story,

1:52:36 Speaker 2: like weird paranoid things or like that touches on so

1:52:41 Speaker 2: much too, it does, right.

1:52:43 Speaker 1: Because so the association between Bigfoot and UFOs and UFOs

1:52:47 Speaker 1: and then some sort of shadowy government.

1:52:51 Speaker 2: Right something something something right.

1:52:54 Speaker 1: Which is really like, are you seeing what's happening in

1:52:58 Speaker 1: the news right now?

1:52:59 Speaker 2: The UFO, oh release stuff?

1:53:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, and people on record like no, no, no, I

1:53:04 Speaker 1: don't want to like commit you to it, right, I

1:53:08 Speaker 1: don't believe everything they tell me either. Right, These are

1:53:10 Speaker 1: all d D approved sentiments, right right. This all went

1:53:15 Speaker 1: through dd pre publication. It's it's a controlled disclosure. It

1:53:18 Speaker 1: seems I'm not putting taken with a grain of salt,

1:53:22 Speaker 1: But are you at least like watching it and going,

1:53:25 Speaker 1: this is crazy that this is happening.

1:53:28 Speaker 2: I think it's uh. I feel like the government puts

1:53:32 Speaker 2: these things up because people want them, right the government,

1:53:34 Speaker 2: the American citizens, like, we want information about UFOs. The

1:53:37 Speaker 2: Government's like, here's what we have. I honestly don't think

1:53:40 Speaker 2: they have any secrets. I really don't. I think they

1:53:42 Speaker 2: have these videos that they're sharing with us, which are

1:53:44 Speaker 2: always very inconclusive. Right, here's some lights, here's something flying

1:53:48 Speaker 2: over the water. I don't, personally, I don't think the

1:53:51 Speaker 2: government has any big secrets with UFOs. I really don't.

1:53:53 Speaker 2: I feel like that's your genuine thing thought. Yeah, I

1:53:57 Speaker 2: don't think they do. I think there's just as puzzled

1:53:59 Speaker 2: anybody else by it.

1:54:01 Speaker 1: I respect that.

1:54:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they just are like, we don't know either.

1:54:04 Speaker 2: Hope somebody figures it out.

1:54:05 Speaker 1: But yeah, I'll say I respectfully disagree, right of course, respectfully. Yeah, Well,

1:54:17 Speaker 1: no one can disagree anymore without having to be enemies.

1:54:20 Speaker 1: This is a crazy, weird world right now. But I

1:54:24 Speaker 1: but I respect that because it's make you know, I

1:54:28 Speaker 1: see why that would why that might be something that

1:54:31 Speaker 1: someone believes and I can empathize that situation. Do you

1:54:37 Speaker 1: think there is a connection between Bigfoot and UFOs. Some

1:54:42 Speaker 1: people have said that we live on like a prison planet,

1:54:45 Speaker 1: or that you know these UFOs, like the Bigfoot is

1:54:49 Speaker 1: almost like the security right, yeah, right.

1:54:56 Speaker 2: Got rough us up or something. I guess. I always

1:55:01 Speaker 2: go back to people have weird experiences.

1:55:05 Speaker 1: So.

1:55:08 Speaker 2: You know, people see bigfoots, people see UFOs, people see ghosts.

1:55:13 Speaker 2: It all blurs right, like what I think. There's a big,

1:55:16 Speaker 2: murky like weird stuff you experienced and then you're trying

1:55:19 Speaker 2: to parse it out like what it is. So it

1:55:22 Speaker 2: doesn't surprise me that people associate bigfoot with UFOs. I

1:55:29 Speaker 2: and I if UFOs are a thing, I don't think

1:55:33 Speaker 2: they're from another planet. I think it is more of

1:55:35 Speaker 2: a spiritual, psychic whatever thing. Their shape is very suggestive

1:55:40 Speaker 2: of like religious imagery, right, the sphere, the orb the halo,

1:55:44 Speaker 2: like all of it's very like religious, ok At Carl

1:55:47 Speaker 2: Jung talking about UFOs is a symbol of the soul,

1:55:50 Speaker 2: all these things. I will tell you I once had

1:55:54 Speaker 2: a dream when I was I was an adult, when

1:55:56 Speaker 2: I had to stream where I was you like this stream.

1:55:59 Speaker 2: I was walking down the street and I was sucked

1:56:01 Speaker 2: up backwards into this large cubical, cubic like structure floating

1:56:06 Speaker 2: in the sky, and I was sucked up into the

1:56:08 Speaker 2: bottom of it, into this giant room, and inside was

1:56:10 Speaker 2: like a large human, like a large muscular human, and

1:56:13 Speaker 2: then like sasquatch inside this flying object. And I walked

1:56:16 Speaker 2: up like what, like, really that was wild?

1:56:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got sucked backwards into.

1:56:22 Speaker 2: A cute like a big flying like it was like

1:56:25 Speaker 2: a big flying UFO type thing.

1:56:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was rectangular or cube like a like

1:56:29 Speaker 1: a big Walmart in the sky exactly right.

1:56:32 Speaker 2: But the sasquatch was in there, like oh there he

1:56:34 Speaker 2: was at like the control panel. I was like, Jesus, So.

1:56:37 Speaker 1: Do you ever think that that could be more than

1:56:39 Speaker 1: a dream?

1:56:40 Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe, but I don't think it's a

1:56:42 Speaker 2: physical thing that happened to me, I would say, hopefully.

1:56:46 Speaker 1: Right. You talked earlier about human initiated contact. Yep, yeah,

1:56:53 Speaker 1: you're it was off camera, off camera. But consciousness is

1:56:59 Speaker 1: a very interesting thing, right, right. Do you believe that

1:57:06 Speaker 1: if it is some sort of spiritual encounter, that maybe

1:57:13 Speaker 1: the way to see it through is to see it

1:57:17 Speaker 1: through inside, to go inside sure to connect with whatever

1:57:24 Speaker 1: it is.

1:57:25 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say I think like our conscious mind

1:57:32 Speaker 2: is a very small part of our mind, right, and

1:57:36 Speaker 2: there's a lot going on behind the scenes that you're

1:57:38 Speaker 2: just incapable of seeing. Right. The eye cannot look at itself,

1:57:41 Speaker 2: that whole idea. You can't actually see your own consciousness

1:57:44 Speaker 2: because you are consciousness. And so what's going on behind

1:57:47 Speaker 2: the scenes is a big mystery, I think. And so

1:57:50 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, things can kind of pop up

1:57:52 Speaker 2: out of there and just surprise you all the time,

1:57:55 Speaker 2: whether you're asleep or you're having a half awake hypnagogue

1:58:00 Speaker 2: thing or whatever, sleep paralysis, or even just during the daytime.

1:58:02 Speaker 2: I think like things suddenly will pop out of and

1:58:04 Speaker 2: be like, oh, I didn't know that was in there.

1:58:06 Speaker 2: But sometimes it may seem like it's coming from up

1:58:08 Speaker 2: there or out through the woods or whatever. But I

1:58:10 Speaker 2: often think it's coming from like whatever is going on

1:58:12 Speaker 2: behind your eyes, Like there's a lot going on back there.

1:58:15 Speaker 1: As my approach, right, I mean, we know that we

1:58:18 Speaker 1: only I mean, we've evolved. If you're if you believe

1:58:21 Speaker 1: in evolution or creation or whatever, it's again semantics, it's

1:58:26 Speaker 1: just insert word here, insert lens here. But we only

1:58:31 Speaker 1: see like twenty percent of the light spectrum right right,

1:58:35 Speaker 1: We've evolved to see what we need to to survive.

1:58:40 Speaker 1: There's all this other stuff around us that we can't see,

1:58:43 Speaker 1: Signals all around this room right now, that we don't

1:58:46 Speaker 1: need to see, right. So I just I find it

1:58:49 Speaker 1: weird that we pretend that we have all the answers

1:58:52 Speaker 1: and that we know every single like facet of reality.

1:58:56 Speaker 1: And again part of me, you know these stories. What

1:59:01 Speaker 1: what do you think? Why do you think people like telling?

1:59:05 Speaker 1: Why why do you think people love a good story?

1:59:08 Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. Like use definitely was a

1:59:11 Speaker 2: phase when I, like family and friends would tell me

1:59:15 Speaker 2: their weird stories, right like, oh, Peter, you love this

1:59:17 Speaker 2: story about the time I was working in the cancer

1:59:19 Speaker 2: ward and blah blah, and I saw a ghost or

1:59:21 Speaker 2: whatever it was happening. Like those sorts of stories that

1:59:23 Speaker 2: I would hear from people.

1:59:26 Speaker 1: Well, it's almost just like the Betty Betty, Yeah, like

1:59:28 Speaker 1: they know.

1:59:29 Speaker 2: I would listen sympathetic, Like I had a coworker who

1:59:32 Speaker 2: lived in an old house in when she was growing up,

1:59:35 Speaker 2: an old house in southeastern Massachusetts. Uh And there was

1:59:39 Speaker 2: like an old graveyard in the woods behind her house,

1:59:43 Speaker 2: and she and her brothers would go out there and

1:59:44 Speaker 2: play in the graveyard and whatever. And once they went

1:59:46 Speaker 2: out there and they like knocked over a gravestone, and

1:59:49 Speaker 2: that night she said that they saw like a what

1:59:51 Speaker 2: looked like a Civil War soldier in their bedroom. They

1:59:54 Speaker 2: were freaked out. And I don't blame her, like that

1:59:56 Speaker 2: would be freaky too, you know. So uh so, but

1:59:59 Speaker 2: so so people like to tell those stories that I'm

2:00:01 Speaker 2: not sure, Like that's a good question. Why do I

2:00:04 Speaker 2: like these stories? I think you know, our lives or

2:00:11 Speaker 2: most of the time we spend doing very like normal

2:00:13 Speaker 2: day to day things, which as it should be, like

2:00:15 Speaker 2: you're feeding your family, you're doing your job, you're paying

2:00:17 Speaker 2: the mortgage, you're like going the doctor, all the stuff

2:00:20 Speaker 2: you should do to have a normal functional life. And

2:00:24 Speaker 2: then I think these add a little hint that there's

2:00:27 Speaker 2: more to life than that, right, a little like whisper, like, hey,

2:00:31 Speaker 2: there might be more here.

2:00:33 Speaker 1: Right, Remember when you were a kid and the world

2:00:36 Speaker 1: seemed a little bit more magical.

2:00:38 Speaker 2: Because you didn't have a job then, right, yeah, right.

2:00:40 Speaker 1: The world seemed a little bit more magical. Nothing. There

2:00:44 Speaker 1: was so much to learn still, right, right, I think

2:00:47 Speaker 1: that's what these stories give us as adults, is they

2:00:51 Speaker 1: give us that magic back.

2:00:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, right right, They re enchanting the world people talk

2:00:57 Speaker 2: about a little bit, right.

2:00:58 Speaker 1: Right, Well, hear me out on this, right. As a kid,

2:01:00 Speaker 1: you're told, depending on where you live, of course, culturally,

2:01:04 Speaker 1: you're told all these mythical creatures exist, right, Santa Claus,

2:01:08 Speaker 1: the Easter Bunny, all these lies that your parents tell

2:01:13 Speaker 1: you for the greater good, they say. But I think

2:01:18 Speaker 1: it's something something else, maybe to make money for the corporations. Right,

2:01:24 Speaker 1: maybe it started off a different way. But anyway, we

2:01:29 Speaker 1: lie to our kids essentially, and I'm boiling it down

2:01:33 Speaker 1: of course, right, but we lie to our kids for

2:01:36 Speaker 1: the first six to ten years of their lives. We

2:01:40 Speaker 1: pull the rug out. Eventually, somehow the rug gets pulled out.

2:01:45 Speaker 1: You learn Santa Claus is bullshit, the Easter Buddies bullshit.

2:01:49 Speaker 1: All of it's bullshit except Jesus. Jesus is real. All

2:01:54 Speaker 1: of it's faith.

2:01:54 Speaker 2: I will say that I still leave up cookies for

2:01:56 Speaker 2: Santa and I'm like fifty nine, so.

2:01:58 Speaker 1: Like the Santa Claus isn't real? But Jesus. But son,

2:02:04 Speaker 1: trust me on this. We're still going to church. Jesus

2:02:07 Speaker 1: is real. The Santa Claus thing I was telling you

2:02:09 Speaker 1: is bullshit, but Jesus is real. Right. You see how

2:02:14 Speaker 1: a kid might be like, wait, fuck you, fuck you.

2:02:19 Speaker 1: Jesus is real, Santa Claus isn't real. You told me

2:02:22 Speaker 1: all of it, like.

2:02:24 Speaker 2: And then or you could take the opposite approacha, it's

2:02:27 Speaker 2: all real, right right?

2:02:28 Speaker 1: Okay, what fifty year old do you know that believes

2:02:31 Speaker 1: in Santa.

2:02:31 Speaker 2: Sam still leave out the cookies form every Christmas so

2:02:34 Speaker 2: you never know.

2:02:34 Speaker 1: You guys are all lying. No, you might leave out cookies,

2:02:38 Speaker 1: but you do it for your kids. You do that whatever. Okay,

2:02:43 Speaker 1: but you see what I'm saying though, Like we pull

2:02:46 Speaker 1: the magic away from kids, we insert it, we pull

2:02:51 Speaker 1: it away. Yeah, and then we wonder why we get

2:02:54 Speaker 1: stuck in this black and white world. No one's willing

2:03:00 Speaker 1: to go outside the box, where if you do go

2:03:05 Speaker 1: outside the box, you're laughed at, you're ridiculed. You're the

2:03:10 Speaker 1: guy in your family where oh you'll like this story

2:03:13 Speaker 1: because you're crazy, because that's what they're really thinking.

2:03:16 Speaker 2: Well, maybe they do think him crazy, but that's okay,

2:03:18 Speaker 2: but not.

2:03:19 Speaker 1: You because you haven't really diven into it. But I

2:03:21 Speaker 1: mean you haven't, like I said, I believe it all.

2:03:24 Speaker 1: You leave a healthy skepticism there. But most people still

2:03:30 Speaker 1: the stigma is fading away. But it's kind of fading

2:03:33 Speaker 1: away for like the UFO stuff. They're not having hearings

2:03:35 Speaker 1: about Bigfoot or ghosts.

2:03:38 Speaker 2: Or I want to go to that. I want to

2:03:40 Speaker 2: go to the Bigfoot hearing.

2:03:40 Speaker 1: I think, I don't think it's ever happened about it.

2:03:43 Speaker 1: But if we knock down this UFO, one sky's the limit.

2:03:49 Speaker 1: So that's there, and then there's this intercommunity, like the

2:03:53 Speaker 1: Bigfoot people don't want to be associated with the UFO people.

2:03:56 Speaker 1: It's like crazy to me, and it's but but it's

2:04:02 Speaker 1: something that I've struggled with, is that notion of having

2:04:09 Speaker 1: this black and white world right and not being able

2:04:12 Speaker 1: to look at the gray because we're too busy. What

2:04:16 Speaker 1: work in a nine to five job that we hate,

2:04:19 Speaker 1: that we despise going to paying paying bills that we like.

2:04:25 Speaker 2: And I like my job.

2:04:26 Speaker 1: Okay, there are exceptions to the rule, of course. I

2:04:30 Speaker 1: like my job too, I do, But you see what

2:04:34 Speaker 1: I'm saying. Most people get caught in this just day

2:04:38 Speaker 1: to day where it's like they I just don't they

2:04:43 Speaker 1: lose that spark because there's there are other things happening,

2:04:48 Speaker 1: and then they're weighted down by the news and all

2:04:52 Speaker 1: the bad stuff that's happening around us that how can

2:04:55 Speaker 1: you even start to think about these stories? But I

2:04:59 Speaker 1: do think that's why people like him is because it

2:05:01 Speaker 1: gives them like a release.

2:05:02 Speaker 2: And I think, uh, you know, you have people who

2:05:07 Speaker 2: go to the places you have, those legend trippers or experiences,

2:05:09 Speaker 2: who want to go and actually have that experience. And

2:05:12 Speaker 2: even if you don't have an experience, like even going

2:05:18 Speaker 2: there is an experience. Right. You get in your car

2:05:20 Speaker 2: with your friend, it's dark, You go to the road,

2:05:22 Speaker 2: the haunted road or whatever haunted road you're going through.

2:05:24 Speaker 2: There are so many of them. You drive around, you

2:05:26 Speaker 2: try to see a monster. Maybe you don't see it,

2:05:28 Speaker 2: maybe you see something. It's exciting, it's fun, right. I

2:05:31 Speaker 2: remember when I was in high school, I want my

2:05:34 Speaker 2: friend Christine and this guy named Sazar, we went to

2:05:37 Speaker 2: see a Nightmare on Elm Street when it first came out.

2:05:41 Speaker 1: I am we saw in.

2:05:42 Speaker 2: The theater the first time, so we see the scary

2:05:44 Speaker 2: movie about teenagers being ripped apart, like, oh, let's keep

2:05:47 Speaker 2: up the scares. We want to go to. We went

2:05:49 Speaker 2: to this haunted place in our town called the Countess's grave,

2:05:55 Speaker 2: and it was this is Havel Messages and so in

2:05:58 Speaker 2: Rocks Village in Hayble, to the little neighbor rural neighborhood

2:06:01 Speaker 2: up by the river, there was this tombstone surrounded by

2:06:06 Speaker 2: an iron cage. And of course, as teenagers, we're like, oh,

2:06:11 Speaker 2: they keep her that, there's a cagere on that grave,

2:06:13 Speaker 2: to keep her in right, to keep her inside that grave.

2:06:17 Speaker 2: And I knew kids who had grown up in that neighborhood,

2:06:20 Speaker 2: and they said, like, at Halloween night everyone gathered to

2:06:22 Speaker 2: try to see if she would come out of her

2:06:24 Speaker 2: grave and stuff like this. This countess, and she actually

2:06:26 Speaker 2: was a countess. She had married a French nobleman and

2:06:29 Speaker 2: they lived in Havel of all places in the seventeen

2:06:32 Speaker 2: hundredth then she died. So there's this grave of this countess.

2:06:35 Speaker 2: So we drive there in my friend Christine's car. We're

2:06:38 Speaker 2: driving to this cemetery and it's dark and it's spooky,

2:06:40 Speaker 2: and suddenly we hear this noise in the roof like

2:06:42 Speaker 2: someone scratching, scratching, scratching the roof and we stopped, like,

2:06:45 Speaker 2: what the hell is that? I don't know. We drive

2:06:47 Speaker 2: close to the grave. We're here to dance. Scratching, scratching, scratching,

2:06:49 Speaker 2: and then we hear Seesar laughing in the back seat

2:06:51 Speaker 2: because he was like, you know, we slp, you know whatever,

2:06:53 Speaker 2: God damn it, right, So you know how but it

2:06:56 Speaker 2: was just fun and it's memorable. Right, We were scared

2:06:58 Speaker 2: and then we weren't scared and were after they went home.

2:07:00 Speaker 2: So I think that's part of it. It's like a

2:07:02 Speaker 2: fun thing to do. It turned out we didn't know

2:07:07 Speaker 2: this history, but the Countess's grave had a iron cage

2:07:10 Speaker 2: around it because in the nineteenth century, this poet John

2:07:15 Speaker 2: Greenleaf Whittier had written a poem about the countess and

2:07:17 Speaker 2: it was a very popular poem about like that her

2:07:20 Speaker 2: love for her husband, how she died tragically and all

2:07:22 Speaker 2: this stuff, and so people used to come to her

2:07:25 Speaker 2: grave and they would chip pieces off it as a

2:07:27 Speaker 2: souvenir in the nineteenth century, so they put this cage

2:07:30 Speaker 2: around it to keep tourists from chipping away to her gravestone.

2:07:33 Speaker 2: Oh that was long forgotten by the time we were there.

2:07:36 Speaker 2: So we thought the cage was to keep her in, right,

2:07:38 Speaker 2: and you hear Countess and your kid, You think count

2:07:40 Speaker 2: count Dracula, right, you think.

2:07:42 Speaker 1: Of any word association story.

2:07:44 Speaker 2: Now it's just totally gone. I think they've taken her

2:07:46 Speaker 2: tombs and put inside a building.

2:07:48 Speaker 1: So wow, do you think that there's a story that

2:07:55 Speaker 1: could that deserves a movie? Oh?

2:07:58 Speaker 2: Boy, huh, that's interesting.

2:08:02 Speaker 1: A movie? A movie? A movie.

2:08:04 Speaker 2: I had heard they're supposed to be a Bridgewater Triangle

2:08:06 Speaker 2: TV show. I don't think that is happening like a

2:08:09 Speaker 2: fiction show, right. I thought Noah Hawley or something like

2:08:11 Speaker 2: that was gonna do it. There's a good movie filmed

2:08:15 Speaker 2: in the Danvers State Hospital. Have you ever seen Session

2:08:18 Speaker 2: nine about the Haunted Insane Aslium filmed in a real

2:08:21 Speaker 2: haunted in.

2:08:23 Speaker 1: I was I got a chance to go in there.

2:08:25 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're lucky with it?

2:08:26 Speaker 1: Yeah? Before Oh yeah, So I tell you a story.

2:08:33 Speaker 1: We were in there and there was this ball, but

2:08:42 Speaker 1: it wasn't a ball, like I don't really not explain it.

2:08:45 Speaker 1: It was it was like it seemed like something maybe

2:08:51 Speaker 1: someone would have to like squeeze, like if they were

2:08:55 Speaker 1: like getting electro shocks or something. So it wasn't a ball,

2:08:58 Speaker 1: so to say, but it like had weight to it.

2:09:04 Speaker 1: It wasn't it didn't roll, it wasn't like a circle.

2:09:06 Speaker 1: It was like more like oblonged and blocked, but like

2:09:10 Speaker 1: almost like anyway, we're walking down this hallway and someone

2:09:19 Speaker 1: picked it up and just went, oh, that's interesting and

2:09:24 Speaker 1: kind of just threw it. I can't remember if they

2:09:27 Speaker 1: threw it forward or threw it into a room or whatever,

2:09:30 Speaker 1: but like three minutes later we were walking down the

2:09:34 Speaker 1: same so we had curled around and then wait and

2:09:37 Speaker 1: made our way back to that same spot where the

2:09:40 Speaker 1: staircase was, and we started going down the staircase and

2:09:44 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, this ball just and there wasn't

2:09:47 Speaker 1: a ball again. It started rolling down the stairs with

2:09:52 Speaker 1: us as we're walking down. Three minutes had passed since

2:09:55 Speaker 1: we had thrown it, and then it just started rolling.

2:10:00 Speaker 1: Like I remember looking next to me and seeing it

2:10:02 Speaker 1: roll down the stairs and being my and I looked

2:10:05 Speaker 1: up at my cousin Nick and Paul Mollett, who was

2:10:09 Speaker 1: there with us, and I went someone fucking with me,

2:10:14 Speaker 1: and they were like they had this ghost white look

2:10:17 Speaker 1: on their face and they just tailed it down the stairs,

2:10:20 Speaker 1: so I've you know, I tailed it back right, But

2:10:24 Speaker 1: I had all this stuff on camera at one point

2:10:28 Speaker 1: on camera because that was how I love filming. From

2:10:33 Speaker 1: when I picked up a camera, I started filming haunted

2:10:35 Speaker 1: places like Dogtown.

2:10:37 Speaker 2: Yeah, Dogtown is great.

2:10:38 Speaker 1: Talk to me about Dogtown, Okay.

2:10:39 Speaker 2: Dogtown is a rocky plateau between Rockport and Gloucester on

2:10:44 Speaker 2: Cape Ann in the north shore, right, and Dogtown was settled.

2:10:51 Speaker 2: I am going to get the daytrong. I always do

2:10:54 Speaker 2: set them like seventeen nineteen or something. It's so Gloucester

2:10:58 Speaker 2: at the time was all by the harbor because that's

2:11:00 Speaker 2: where the fishing was, That's where the boats would come in.

2:11:02 Speaker 2: Gloucester was a fishing town. It's still as kind of

2:11:04 Speaker 2: it's still as a fishing town. Yeah, And so they

2:11:07 Speaker 2: wanted to get more people to settle there, so they

2:11:09 Speaker 2: opened up this rocky plateau for settlement and they called

2:11:13 Speaker 2: it the Common Settlement at the time. And so it

2:11:16 Speaker 2: wasn't it was bad land for farming. You couldn't farm

2:11:18 Speaker 2: up there, it was too rocky. But like blacksmiths would

2:11:21 Speaker 2: live up there, barrel makers like craftsmen would live up there.

2:11:25 Speaker 2: And so craftsmen were living up there. Everybody was happy

2:11:28 Speaker 2: for quite a while. But then there were some changes,

2:11:30 Speaker 2: like the Revolutionary War came, a lot of men were

2:11:33 Speaker 2: drafted away from the common settlement. And then also Gloucester

2:11:38 Speaker 2: moved its church. And if at that time like church

2:11:42 Speaker 2: was super important and so ground well also it was

2:11:46 Speaker 2: like the community center, right, and so people in the

2:11:49 Speaker 2: common Settlement needed to go to church on Sunday. But

2:11:52 Speaker 2: the church moved like four or five miles away or whatever,

2:11:55 Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh boy, now we have like twice

2:11:56 Speaker 2: as far to go to church. Why did they move

2:11:58 Speaker 2: to church? So this neighborhood became incredibly undesirable because it

2:12:02 Speaker 2: was far away from the center of activity. Now, so

2:12:05 Speaker 2: it became a bandon. Basically, there were very few men there.

2:12:09 Speaker 2: People could live closer to the church or closer the town,

2:12:11 Speaker 2: move closer to town, and so Dogtown then just became

2:12:14 Speaker 2: basically a lot of elderly widows lived up there and

2:12:20 Speaker 2: their dogs. People say that's how they got it his

2:12:23 Speaker 2: name the dog. It's a lot of name dog Town.

2:12:25 Speaker 2: There are other places named Dogtown also around the country.

2:12:27 Speaker 2: I feel like Dogtown just means like kind of a

2:12:29 Speaker 2: bad place rh But these widows who lived up there,

2:12:33 Speaker 2: many of them decided to make their living as calling

2:12:36 Speaker 2: themselfs witches basically, so they would, you know, they would

2:12:40 Speaker 2: read your fortune using tea leaves. They would concoct the

2:12:43 Speaker 2: herbal cures and things like this, and some of them,

2:12:46 Speaker 2: the scarier looking ones, would curse people right there was

2:12:50 Speaker 2: They were like a woman named Tammy Younger lived near

2:12:54 Speaker 2: you do know this one. She lived near a road

2:12:56 Speaker 2: in this old house, and if she heard a wagon coming,

2:12:58 Speaker 2: she would like opened the shutters. She was like very

2:13:02 Speaker 2: people said she was really really ugly, and she like

2:13:05 Speaker 2: cursed the wagon, like you are cursed. Everyone in your

2:13:08 Speaker 2: wagon will die unlast you pay me. And of course

2:13:10 Speaker 2: people would pay her, and so that's how she made

2:13:12 Speaker 2: her mind. He was like cursing people in collecting payment

2:13:14 Speaker 2: to reverse the curse, as we say here in Boston,

2:13:18 Speaker 2: And so that works on two levels.

2:13:20 Speaker 1: Good job.

2:13:20 Speaker 2: And so this went on for quite a while until

2:13:24 Speaker 2: those women died.

2:13:26 Speaker 1: Imagine getting cursed by some hag and then having a payer.

2:13:29 Speaker 2: Well, better that than risk the crist I guess so right,

2:13:33 Speaker 2: And other people live in dog I mean, the witches

2:13:34 Speaker 2: are the most famous, but they like freed slaves would

2:13:37 Speaker 2: live up there.

2:13:39 Speaker 1: So it ends up becoming abandoned, abandoned, right though.

2:13:43 Speaker 2: Everyone dies and the last person lived there was a

2:13:45 Speaker 2: guy named Cornelius Finsen.

2:13:48 Speaker 1: Imagine being the last person.

2:13:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was a freed slave and he they

2:13:52 Speaker 2: found him in a cellar of somebody's house trying to

2:13:54 Speaker 2: find buried treasure which was not there. And then they

2:13:57 Speaker 2: brought him back into Gloster and he froze to death.

2:13:59 Speaker 2: He died.

2:13:59 Speaker 1: I think he just froze today.

2:14:01 Speaker 2: He was freezing. Definitely, brought him to Gloucester and then

2:14:03 Speaker 2: he died. Oh, okay, die.

2:14:05 Speaker 1: God just threw the guy in the ocean and he

2:14:08 Speaker 1: froze to a block.

2:14:09 Speaker 2: He was freezing when they found him in doctor Oh,

2:14:11 Speaker 2: then he died. I had the order rung. So then

2:14:13 Speaker 2: it becomes it becomes abandoned like Dogtown becomes completely abandoned.

2:14:19 Speaker 1: And nature starts to tach over.

2:14:21 Speaker 2: Nature starts to take over, but in a weird way,

2:14:23 Speaker 2: in a weird way.

2:14:23 Speaker 1: Quick.

2:14:24 Speaker 2: And this guy named Roger Babson, who was a financier,

2:14:29 Speaker 2: very wealthy person in Gloucester. He predicted the Great Depression.

2:14:32 Speaker 2: He founded Babson College. He hires Stonemasons to carve motivational

2:14:39 Speaker 2: slogans into boulders in the middle of this abandoned village

2:14:42 Speaker 2: known for witches. But he thought, like he didn't like

2:14:45 Speaker 2: the witch stories, Like people shouldn't remember this for witchcraft.

2:14:47 Speaker 2: They should remember it for those original craftsmen who lived

2:14:50 Speaker 2: here in Seven Night seventeen nineteen.

2:14:51 Speaker 1: So they're like he was trying to like reclaim it.

2:14:54 Speaker 2: Yes're like they're thirty bolder. I don't remember the guy number.

2:14:56 Speaker 2: Like a lot of boulders scattered through those woods that

2:14:58 Speaker 2: say things like beyond time, work hard, you know, just

2:15:03 Speaker 2: like invest your money. They have all these like really

2:15:08 Speaker 2: just work hard type of motivational things.

2:15:10 Speaker 1: It's like almost like rock like advertising. Yes, like like

2:15:15 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's a billboard essentially, And it's.

2:15:18 Speaker 2: Really weird because nature basically has reclaimed that whole air

2:15:21 Speaker 2: and now it's really dense forest and you're wandering fund

2:15:24 Speaker 2: this dense forest. Certainly come up big bullets as like

2:15:27 Speaker 2: obey your mother.

2:15:28 Speaker 1: You're like what is You're like, what the fuck because

2:15:31 Speaker 1: it's all like mossy and you're like, obey my mother,

2:15:34 Speaker 1: What the fuck are you talking to you?

2:15:36 Speaker 2: It's a really strange.

2:15:37 Speaker 1: Place, super strange. I will say, out of all the

2:15:43 Speaker 1: places that I've been to, that one gave me the

2:15:47 Speaker 1: most uncomfortable feeling. It's a weird uncomfortable just like I

2:15:53 Speaker 1: never saw anything, nothing ever spooked me. We filmed there

2:15:56 Speaker 1: just so many times that it almost became like second nature,

2:16:02 Speaker 1: like to be there because we were going to places

2:16:05 Speaker 1: like the abandoned uh mansion and Wakefield on one on

2:16:09 Speaker 1: Mansion Drive we were going to we were just hitting

2:16:12 Speaker 1: all these places all the time, so it just became

2:16:14 Speaker 1: almost second nature. I wasn't scared anymore. It was more

2:16:18 Speaker 1: like we're searching, right. But I always every time we

2:16:22 Speaker 1: went to Dogtown, I would have this really weird like uncomfortability.

2:16:27 Speaker 2: It's a weird landscape too. It is a weird landscape.

2:16:30 Speaker 2: It's very you can see why it was not the

2:16:34 Speaker 2: first place people wanted to live in.

2:16:36 Speaker 1: Gloucester because no, it's it's very not convenient.

2:16:39 Speaker 2: It's hard to walk on some places like tiny sharp

2:16:42 Speaker 2: rocks and your big boulders. Like it's a weird landscape.

2:16:46 Speaker 1: And yeah, so yeah, I again, I lost a lot

2:16:50 Speaker 1: of that footage most actually all of it.

2:16:55 Speaker 2: Have you been there, I've been there a few times.

2:16:57 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, all right, after all these years, as

2:17:02 Speaker 1: we wind down for the main episode here because I'd

2:17:05 Speaker 1: love to have you back as well. You're so this

2:17:07 Speaker 1: is fantastic. After all these years researching ghosts, witches, monsters

2:17:12 Speaker 1: and fairy fog, haunted places, strange encounters, You've wrote two

2:17:17 Speaker 1: critically acclaimed books.

2:17:19 Speaker 2: The two books, I don't have crity claimed, but I

2:17:20 Speaker 2: wrote two books.

2:17:21 Speaker 1: As far as New England, it's pretty pretty.

2:17:24 Speaker 2: They got got some good reviews in Amazon.

2:17:26 Speaker 1: Yeah. After all that, is there any story that still

2:17:32 Speaker 1: bothers you you can't quite figure out?

2:17:36 Speaker 3: Oh?

2:17:40 Speaker 2: You know, there's stories I always want to go back to,

2:17:43 Speaker 2: like that I write about over and over for some reason,

2:17:45 Speaker 2: like that, I always write about the pig Man. I'm like,

2:17:46 Speaker 2: I've written about the Pigman like four or five times.

2:17:49 Speaker 2: I just really like that story. Something about it just

2:17:53 Speaker 2: resonates in my brain. I like some of the classic

2:17:58 Speaker 2: witch stories. Like witch stories are very repetitive from the

2:18:02 Speaker 2: nineteenth century. It's always like, you know, farmer Smith noticed

2:18:06 Speaker 2: that his pig was acting strangely, then he cut his

2:18:10 Speaker 2: pig's ear off, and then the old lady down the

2:18:13 Speaker 2: road was suddenly walked down the road. You know, she

2:18:15 Speaker 2: had a bandage on her ear, so therefore he knew

2:18:17 Speaker 2: she was the witch. And that story is repeated like

2:18:20 Speaker 2: a hundred times, like you see it over and over

2:18:23 Speaker 2: and over.

2:18:24 Speaker 1: And I'm sure the guy who cut the pig's ear

2:18:25 Speaker 1: off isn't the witch.

2:18:26 Speaker 2: No, No, the people are really cruel to animals, that's

2:18:28 Speaker 2: one thing you learned, Like people are really mean to

2:18:30 Speaker 2: their animals. Like, but it's over and over, like, oh,

2:18:33 Speaker 2: farmer Jones noticed that his cow was acting strangely, so

2:18:36 Speaker 2: he you know, cut its tail off, and then a

2:18:40 Speaker 2: few days later he knows old the old lady down

2:18:42 Speaker 2: the road was walking down she had a big bandage

2:18:44 Speaker 2: on her butt because she you know, because she was

2:18:46 Speaker 2: the witch and she had been bewitching his cow. Like

2:18:48 Speaker 2: it's the same story over and over and over. It's

2:18:50 Speaker 2: kind of amazing to me that and the stories like

2:18:54 Speaker 2: we read it now was like, oh, it's a story

2:18:55 Speaker 2: about a witch, which it is, but it's also was

2:18:58 Speaker 2: an instructional story for people to figure out to tell

2:19:00 Speaker 2: who a witch was, Like you're trying to people would

2:19:03 Speaker 2: tell the stories. Tell like kids, if you're you think

2:19:05 Speaker 2: your cow is bewitched. This is how you figure out

2:19:07 Speaker 2: who the witch is, Like, cut its ear off, yeah,

2:19:11 Speaker 2: or cut off its hurt it. If you hurt your animal,

2:19:14 Speaker 2: which we don't do these days, that pain will be

2:19:16 Speaker 2: transmitted to the witch who was bewitching your cow.

2:19:19 Speaker 1: Well, if I find out that little Timmy is hurting

2:19:22 Speaker 1: his his pig, I'm gonna have to pay little Timmy

2:19:25 Speaker 1: of is this and it's not gonna be pleasant.

2:19:28 Speaker 2: But do not hurt that goddamn for humans, right, for humans,

2:19:32 Speaker 2: you couldn't. Like, let's say we think we think Tyler's bewitch. Right,

2:19:35 Speaker 2: you're twitching around your foaming at them out, you're barking

2:19:37 Speaker 2: like a dog. Ord like, oh, Tyler's bewitch. We're not

2:19:39 Speaker 2: gonna cut Tyler's ear off, right, We're not gonna do that.

2:19:42 Speaker 2: But what we might do is this will be gross.

2:19:45 Speaker 2: We would take some of Tyler's urine and put it

2:19:48 Speaker 2: into a jar. And in that jar we would put

2:19:51 Speaker 2: like all sorts of sharp things, like nails in particular,

2:19:54 Speaker 2: and so like, the witch is connected to your body

2:19:57 Speaker 2: and also the products of your body. Yeah, and so

2:20:00 Speaker 2: therefore when we put those nails in that jar, you're

2:20:03 Speaker 2: that which is gonna feel pain, right, and they're going

2:20:05 Speaker 2: to show up at the house where you are and

2:20:07 Speaker 2: be like, oh, Hi, what's happening with Tyler? I'm here Hello,

2:20:10 Speaker 2: And they really just want to see, like where's that

2:20:11 Speaker 2: jar with the nails? And they want to get that

2:20:13 Speaker 2: jar with the nails. So once we do that, we'll

2:20:15 Speaker 2: know who the witch is.

2:20:16 Speaker 3: That is it?

2:20:16 Speaker 1: That's a very fun uh like the home craft.

2:20:20 Speaker 2: Project, you can do yeah, right, And sometimes like in

2:20:25 Speaker 2: the worst case, they like would put that jar full

2:20:29 Speaker 2: of urine and nails into the fireplace and heat it

2:20:31 Speaker 2: up till it exploded if you really wanted to get

2:20:34 Speaker 2: the witch bad like you right, right, So imagine the market.

2:20:38 Speaker 1: You here at the market and your head's blown off.

2:20:40 Speaker 1: You're like that the got you got?

2:20:45 Speaker 2: You fascinated by those stories a little bit, Like they

2:20:49 Speaker 2: just come up over and there's very repetitive.

2:20:54 Speaker 1: Is there any story that you can't explain away?

2:20:56 Speaker 2: Oh I don't even know, Like I don't always try

2:20:58 Speaker 2: to explain the story. Sometimes just tell the story and

2:21:01 Speaker 2: let it be.

2:21:01 Speaker 3: Let it be.

2:21:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like you know, okay, I'm not a debunker.

2:21:06 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I don't like to, but just I know,

2:21:09 Speaker 2: I'd also I'm not.

2:21:09 Speaker 1: A but you leave room for skepticism, right, I get that.

2:21:13 Speaker 1: I get that. Do you find it like the ancient

2:21:19 Speaker 1: Native cultures? Are there any stories you can tell me

2:21:24 Speaker 1: from like stories that they had, because you know, it's

2:21:30 Speaker 1: when I think about the Native cultures and cultures that

2:21:32 Speaker 1: came before even like a look at all the distractions

2:21:38 Speaker 1: around us, right, we've only continued to have more distraction,

2:21:43 Speaker 1: and it seems we've gotten further away from like being

2:21:46 Speaker 1: one with the earth, right, knowing what she needs.

2:21:50 Speaker 2: Right.

2:21:50 Speaker 1: The Natives didn't, like a lot of ancient cultures, they

2:21:53 Speaker 1: only took what they needed, right, they or it's not

2:21:56 Speaker 1: that they just took what they needed, but they didn't

2:21:58 Speaker 1: have really the means to take everything. Now we take

2:22:03 Speaker 1: everything from the earth and we don't give a lot back.

2:22:06 Speaker 2: Right, it's not gonna end well if it keeps going on,

2:22:09 Speaker 2: if it keeps.

2:22:09 Speaker 1: This way up. Right, do you think that like our

2:22:13 Speaker 1: our natives or ancient cultures were more in tune with

2:22:19 Speaker 1: the world around them and these phenomena because they were

2:22:25 Speaker 1: closer with it because they had less distraction.

2:22:29 Speaker 2: That's a good question. And I you know, I'm not

2:22:31 Speaker 2: Native Americans, so anything I say take with a big

2:22:33 Speaker 2: grain of salt, right, Like, I'm not a Native American person,

2:22:36 Speaker 2: and there are still like still plenty of Wampa Nogu

2:22:38 Speaker 2: people on Cape Cod Martha's vineyard, So there there's still

2:22:41 Speaker 2: living cultures.

2:22:41 Speaker 1: Like experience met a lot.

2:22:45 Speaker 2: I don't know. I suppose they were closer to the

2:22:49 Speaker 2: land right when the English came. They brought animals that

2:22:52 Speaker 2: were not native to this area, of pigs, cows, horses,

2:22:55 Speaker 2: like chickens.

2:22:56 Speaker 1: All these bugs like mosquitoes.

2:22:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, all the stuff they brought. The worms we see

2:23:00 Speaker 2: now or not the original worms that were here even right,

2:23:02 Speaker 2: all this stuff, the honey bees were never originally here,

2:23:05 Speaker 2: so they kind of and they basically changed the land

2:23:08 Speaker 2: to try to make it like the place they were from.

2:23:10 Speaker 2: So I think we have that disconnect inherently. Like you

2:23:14 Speaker 2: walk around, the weeds we see are not the weeds

2:23:16 Speaker 2: that were here when, like dandelions, all these things were

2:23:19 Speaker 2: not local, right, they were brought here to.

2:23:21 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's I've never thought about that part

2:23:24 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, Like they even changed the species.

2:23:29 Speaker 2: I know that they do not, maybe not even on purpose,

2:23:32 Speaker 2: but they did, right, Yeah.

2:23:33 Speaker 1: But they introduced things that weren't natively here they did

2:23:37 Speaker 1: change they and maybe that's where things like this starts, right,

2:23:42 Speaker 1: you start changing things around and digging and doing things

2:23:46 Speaker 1: like altering the land, right, and then you rile something up.

2:23:52 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe maybe, but yeah, I've I've always found that

2:23:57 Speaker 1: interesting like that, I mean, are all of our ancient

2:24:00 Speaker 1: cultures they talk about beings that descended from the sky

2:24:05 Speaker 1: or came from the earth inside the earth and taught

2:24:09 Speaker 1: them the ways of civilization, you know, from agriculture to mathematics,

2:24:16 Speaker 1: to science, to alchemy, well alchemy being the predecessor to

2:24:21 Speaker 1: modern day science, but more morality, all these things. Then

2:24:29 Speaker 1: they leave, but vowed to return. We see this across

2:24:34 Speaker 1: all civilizations. They all have the same sort of architecture, right,

2:24:41 Speaker 1: these pyramids that they build that are mathematically astrology astrologically

2:24:48 Speaker 1: or astronomically i should say, per so precise and done

2:24:54 Speaker 1: with such precision. And whether those those monolithic structures outlast everything.

2:25:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to Egypt years ago, which is a

2:25:12 Speaker 2: great trip. Like it was amazing to see and you

2:25:16 Speaker 2: can see like how the pyramid evolved, like as you

2:25:19 Speaker 2: do the tours, Like here's like the original Mastaba, which

2:25:22 Speaker 2: is like this single platform but then you see like

2:25:25 Speaker 2: two mastabas on top of each other three and it

2:25:26 Speaker 2: kind of becomes this slowly looks like a step pyramid.

2:25:29 Speaker 2: They smoothed it up, becomes like the pyramids that we know.

2:25:32 Speaker 2: And then when they made those pyramids, it like it

2:25:36 Speaker 2: was like a beacon for grave rubbers, like this giant

2:25:39 Speaker 2: stone structure. All the good stuff's buried in there. So

2:25:42 Speaker 2: they they made the pyramids and like, you know what,

2:25:44 Speaker 2: we have to start hiding our tombs and they can

2:25:45 Speaker 2: move to the Valley of the Kings and like much

2:25:47 Speaker 2: more subtle tomb structures after that. So it's interesting to see.

2:25:51 Speaker 2: And they even we go to the they showed us

2:25:53 Speaker 2: a quarry where you could see they had carved out

2:25:56 Speaker 2: some of the obelisk, but they had broken or hadn't

2:25:58 Speaker 2: finished them. So it's really fascinating see this stuff.

2:26:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, because once there was an imperfection, they couldn't use it,

2:26:04 Speaker 1: so they were just willing to leave it there.

2:26:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing.

2:26:06 Speaker 1: Why would they just be willing to leave it there.

2:26:10 Speaker 1: I don't know, because it was broken.

2:26:13 Speaker 3: I don't know.

2:26:14 Speaker 1: I think it's because they could maybe they could they

2:26:19 Speaker 1: could make something that breaks and being like yeah, that

2:26:22 Speaker 1: took us twenty years to make, but we'll just abandon it. No,

2:26:26 Speaker 1: I think that abundance and technological advancement allowed them to

2:26:31 Speaker 1: just make those kind of choices.

2:26:33 Speaker 2: But I will say, I don't know where we're going

2:26:36 Speaker 2: with this, but I will say I don't think aliens

2:26:38 Speaker 2: to taught people to do this. I feel like it's

2:26:39 Speaker 2: all like humans are super smart. We just don't realize

2:26:42 Speaker 2: how smart people can be across the world.

2:26:44 Speaker 1: But we're taught in we're taught in school that none

2:26:47 Speaker 1: of these cultures ever had any any communication with each other, right,

2:26:55 Speaker 1: but yet they all didn't. Some did, some didn't, most didn't.

2:27:01 Speaker 1: That that that is what we're taught.

2:27:04 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, so if you're talking about lake, but.

2:27:06 Speaker 1: They all yet they build the sale almost.

2:27:08 Speaker 2: In Africa, and then we got the like the Mayans,

2:27:10 Speaker 2: the tull Text pyramids.

2:27:12 Speaker 1: But on every continent. There are pyramids, every single continent.

2:27:16 Speaker 2: But I think if you look at how you if

2:27:18 Speaker 2: you just pile stones on top of each other, they

2:27:20 Speaker 2: make a certain shape, and people like, let's how do

2:27:23 Speaker 2: you build up before you can build a skyscraper, it's

2:27:25 Speaker 2: going to be a pyramid, right, all right, Okay, I'm saying.

2:27:30 Speaker 1: Agree to disagree. I'm not saying aliens came down and

2:27:32 Speaker 1: showed them how to do it. But I'm thinking, you know,

2:27:37 Speaker 1: what if these are What if this was some sort

2:27:40 Speaker 1: of like we talk about Tesla, how we wanted to

2:27:43 Speaker 1: like warning Cliffe Tower and that this idea of pulling

2:27:48 Speaker 1: from the ether. What if these are some sort of

2:27:52 Speaker 1: evidence of a global a global civilization that was around

2:27:56 Speaker 1: at one point, and then the predynastic Egyptian they inherit

2:28:02 Speaker 1: the great Pyramids and then they try to replicate them,

2:28:05 Speaker 1: but they can't. They don't get them perfectly right, right,

2:28:09 Speaker 1: That's why the bent Pyramid and all that, all those

2:28:12 Speaker 1: ones they never they never They're not as precise. Why

2:28:17 Speaker 1: are the Why are the newer pyramids shittier than the

2:28:20 Speaker 1: oldest pyramids? It doesn't make sense.

2:28:23 Speaker 2: Like why are our new houses not as nice as

2:28:25 Speaker 2: our old houses?

2:28:25 Speaker 4: Here?

2:28:26 Speaker 2: Like you live in a Victoria now, is it's amazing,

2:28:27 Speaker 2: like beautiful woodwork, beautiful stonework. Then you buy a house

2:28:30 Speaker 2: built in like the nineteen fifties, like it's not so great.

2:28:33 Speaker 2: House in the nineties and the seventies, like it's not

2:28:36 Speaker 2: so Like I get it. There's craftsmanship exists in certain

2:28:41 Speaker 2: cultures for certain reasons, then it fades away. I think,

2:28:43 Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to short change our Egyptian

2:28:46 Speaker 2: in our mind access I feel like they did a

2:28:48 Speaker 2: great job. And if you like, if you even go

2:28:50 Speaker 2: to like a museum of Fine arts or something like. Okay,

2:28:52 Speaker 2: here's a weird example. There was an exhibit at the

2:28:55 Speaker 2: Beast Boston College Museum of artifacts from the fringes of

2:29:00 Speaker 2: the Roman Empire. Right, these are like Syria, North Africa,

2:29:05 Speaker 2: places that were not the central part of the Roman Empire,

2:29:07 Speaker 2: with the fringes of the Roman Empire. And they had

2:29:11 Speaker 2: fabric things like clothing which had survived in these places

2:29:14 Speaker 2: because it's so dry, like Siria's really dry. So they

2:29:17 Speaker 2: had this vest which had been they said, had been

2:29:19 Speaker 2: made for child and the craftsmanship was wild, like it

2:29:24 Speaker 2: looked like it was made of firb was actually made

2:29:25 Speaker 2: of flax. Wow, And you could see it had tied

2:29:27 Speaker 2: every single strand of flax this tiny net like.

2:29:33 Speaker 1: Amazing.

2:29:34 Speaker 2: And no one's gonna be able to make it these

2:29:35 Speaker 2: days because they we don't have the time. But they

2:29:37 Speaker 2: had like just they had time, and they had bodies

2:29:39 Speaker 2: and they had hands like people you're making that vest

2:29:41 Speaker 2: let's go, right, So it's kind of fascinating to see

2:29:44 Speaker 2: like what people in the past could do that to

2:29:46 Speaker 2: us and now were like how did they do it?

2:29:47 Speaker 2: But they just knew like they just knew how to

2:29:48 Speaker 2: do these Well.

2:29:50 Speaker 1: That's my original point is I think they were well,

2:29:53 Speaker 1: they were more connected to like their surroundings, and they

2:29:57 Speaker 1: were able to manipulate their surround like to what we

2:30:01 Speaker 1: would call it technology today, right what if you know

2:30:05 Speaker 1: what I mean? I just think they probably had something

2:30:09 Speaker 1: more that we don't understand, Like have you ever seen

2:30:11 Speaker 1: like the Baghdad battery.

2:30:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard of.

2:30:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting. I'd look into that. But listen, where

2:30:20 Speaker 1: can people find the blog? We're gonna end the main

2:30:24 Speaker 1: episode here, We'll do a quick ten minute.

2:30:26 Speaker 2: New England Folklore. It's New England Folklore dot blogspot dot com.

2:30:31 Speaker 2: I've been doing it for like eighteen years, so there's

2:30:34 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff on there. If you know, in

2:30:35 Speaker 2: a horror movie someone opens up that old dusty book,

2:30:38 Speaker 2: my blog is like, but it's a blog. It's an

2:30:40 Speaker 2: old dusty blog, so you can find weird stuff in

2:30:42 Speaker 2: there for eighteen.

2:30:43 Speaker 1: Years, so I love it. And then you have two books.

2:30:46 Speaker 2: I have two books, Legends and Lore of the North Shore,

2:30:49 Speaker 2: which is stories from the North Store of Massachusetts, so

2:30:52 Speaker 2: from the towns between, like Revere and New Hampshire. Then

2:30:57 Speaker 2: I have Witches and Warlocks of Massachusetts, which is just

2:31:01 Speaker 2: someone of witchcraft stories, like sixty or seventy different witchcraft

2:31:05 Speaker 2: stories from across different towns in Massachusetts.

2:31:07 Speaker 1: Wow, amazing. All the links for that guy's will be

2:31:11 Speaker 1: in the description below. I want to say again, thank

2:31:15 Speaker 1: you so much. Peter. Definitely would love to have you

2:31:20 Speaker 1: back for another another one, and we'll get to the

2:31:24 Speaker 1: Patreon segment, the YouTube member segment. Uh, then we'll get

2:31:27 Speaker 1: you off on your way back to Brookline, which I

2:31:30 Speaker 1: love Brookline. The convenience, it's amazing. I was a summer

2:31:35 Speaker 1: I lived in Somerville for a while.

2:31:36 Speaker 2: Yeah, and.

2:31:39 Speaker 1: I love it. I love the convenience of like the

2:31:42 Speaker 1: subway and you know, you can drive if you want,

2:31:45 Speaker 1: but you don't have to, And it's just I love

2:31:48 Speaker 1: being able to just get up and just be like,

2:31:50 Speaker 1: you know what, I just want to go downtown today,

2:31:52 Speaker 1: Like I love it. So it's a little different being

2:31:56 Speaker 1: a little further away, but I still love it. Massachusetts

2:32:00 Speaker 1: you know, every time I leave, it's weird because we

2:32:03 Speaker 1: always like hate our hometown and then we grow older

2:32:06 Speaker 1: we love it, right.

2:32:08 Speaker 2: But it's only when we leave, Yeah, you realize what

2:32:11 Speaker 2: you had.

2:32:12 Speaker 1: That that we realize how beautiful it is here, how

2:32:16 Speaker 1: how storied because there's not just the paranormal stories, but

2:32:21 Speaker 1: there's like America formed here, So there there, I mean,

2:32:25 Speaker 1: this is just a storied, storied part of the land.

2:32:30 Speaker 1: It's it's where the modern United States began, right, it's

2:32:36 Speaker 1: where it all started. And you know, look left or

2:32:40 Speaker 1: right and you're gonna see something historic. So we need

2:32:43 Speaker 1: to keep preserving that. And you know, doing what you

2:32:46 Speaker 1: do is as modern day. It's keeping record of legend

2:32:51 Speaker 1: and passing it off. So I really respect what you do,

2:32:56 Speaker 1: my friend, and I've been paying attention for years, So

2:33:00 Speaker 1: keep doing what you're doing. Yeh, everyone, thank you so much.

2:33:19 Speaker 1: This has been total disclosure in the Thank you Jane,

2:33:23 Speaker 1: Thank you Jeff for for doing everything behind the scenes,

2:33:26 Speaker 1: behind the keys. Uh couldn't ask for a better group

2:33:29 Speaker 1: of people. We are over and outstay humble, stay kind,

2:33:33 Speaker 1: and most importantly, stay vigilant. We'll see it next time.

2:33:52 Speaker 3: Mtend pretend to detect the h