UFOs, Alien Abduction & Consciousness — Paul Hynek (Son of J. Allen Hynek)

0:00 Speaker 1: Welcome back everybody.

0:01 Speaker 2: I am here on the last day of Contact and Desert twenty twenty five event Horizon, and I've been waiting for this specific.

0:08 Speaker 1: Interview probably since the minute I arrived.

0:11 Speaker 2: Actually, Paul Heinik is here with me, son of Jay Allen Heinik, famed scientist for Project Blue Book.

0:20 Speaker 1: Your family name is engraved in UFO lure in history.

0:25 Speaker 2: Big shoes to fill, I know, but I really wanted to sit down with you and talk about Pascagoula. Cool and what you know about you know about Pascagoula, not in terms of just what happened with Calvin Right and Charles Right, but the larger event that took place that you know, there's many more witnesses than where.

0:47 Speaker 3: We were keep coming forward over time, yes.

0:49 Speaker 1: And a hundred people.

0:52 Speaker 3: So is it?

0:53 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, what did your dad know? What?

0:56 Speaker 2: What What was your dad's overall opinion about the case in past Goula and what was his view on Charles in Calvin He.

1:04 Speaker 3: Thought the case was very convincing.

1:06 Speaker 4: But one time he was asked by a reporter, Doctor Heinik, did the events reported.

1:11 Speaker 3: In past Goula actually happened? And he said, how the hell should I know? I wasn't there, but because that's what a scientist would say.

1:19 Speaker 4: But I believe the witnesses believe it happened, and that's as far as a scientist would go.

1:24 Speaker 3: He found the case very compelling.

1:26 Speaker 4: And one of the things that's interesting to me that I found out from Calvin was that I don't know if I have all the dates lined up, but I think it happened on a Friday and or on the weekend. On Monday morning, Calvin told me that he was called to the HR office of the shipyard, I think where he worked, and my father was there at seven thirty in the morning in the HR office with somebody else.

1:54 Speaker 3: And Calvin didn't know who my father was.

1:57 Speaker 4: He wasn't into upology, so he didn't know, but he he was impressive. There's two gentlemen that were there at seven thirty in the morning. I never knew that. I knew my father had gone down there, but I didn't know that case occurring on a friday or the weekend, and he's there seven thirty on Monday morning.

2:13 Speaker 1: Right now.

2:14 Speaker 4: He traveled extensively for a lot of cases, but I think he must have been somewhere on or near the Gulf coast for other business.

2:22 Speaker 3: So that was something that was fascinating to me.

2:24 Speaker 2: Wow, well, and there was right around that time now and then this is something I've been looking too into separately, but right around that time, there's a real big wave of major sightings in that time period.

2:38 Speaker 1: And you know, I think that you're probably probably right.

2:41 Speaker 2: He was other you know, down there for other reasons, but I think they were most likely UFO based, because that that summer or that stretch of like four months, I plotted at least eleven major really well eleven major cases.

2:57 Speaker 1: All around that area.

2:59 Speaker 2: So and that all the way up to all the way up to the to the northern of the United States. So Pasco Gula for me, is just one of those things that the more evidence I'm seeing, it really is becoming beyond a reasonable doubt that something took place in Mississippi that those couple of days.

3:20 Speaker 1: And then even even after. So I want to talk about your legacy.

3:27 Speaker 2: How are you filling the legacy of your father in this world.

3:32 Speaker 1: We're here at contact in the desert.

3:34 Speaker 2: Obviously, your name is very well known, so how do you how do you keep up with that, and how do you live up to such a name?

3:42 Speaker 3: Oh, and you talked about big shoes. Yeah, so I'm not filling any shoes.

3:47 Speaker 4: My I never thought that I would have anything interesting to say. I'm just the son of somebody. But when the TV show Project Blue Book came out and I was a consultant on that, Oh did you my brother, they asked me to do publicity.

4:01 Speaker 3: So I started speaking in public and that sort of broke the damn.

4:07 Speaker 4: And then people ask me what is I like to grow up with the father and things like that, And then I started over time developing my own voice and my own sort of particular interests associated with the phenomena. And now I don't know how you cannot be interested in this. You may not think there's much to it, but once you look at it, there's just so much.

4:28 Speaker 3: Evidence that suggests that something's happening.

4:30 Speaker 4: But a lot of people will not lean into it because they'll say, well, I know there's evidence, and there's royal as well, and there's this and that, but.

4:39 Speaker 3: I don't know where they come from.

4:42 Speaker 4: And that's because there are two kinds of people in the world. Those who are okay with questions, they can't answer and those who are not okay with their answers being questioned.

4:52 Speaker 3: And I've been able and I had a debate with Michael Shermer, the founder of Skeptical magazine right now, a friend, and others. I've been able to win people over.

5:01 Speaker 4: And I've seen so many conversations where people say, what about this evidence and this evidence, and it just doesn't It falls on deaf ears. But once you can start to tease a part the weight of the evidence not needing an explanation to stand on its own, that helps a lot. So that's something I look at, and you know, my interests. My father was interested in other dimensions, perhaps as an origin as an origin, right, it could be a Chinese menu, extra trust, interdimensional, extra temporal shout out to Mike Masters, Yeah, oh that's great, Yeah, and other things, but interdimensional are really resonated with me.

5:40 Speaker 3: So that's the sort of avenue that I focus on.

5:43 Speaker 1: So do you think so? And then that's become more popular in recent.

5:47 Speaker 2: Years, interdimensional hypothesis, And I think things like, you know, I know I've done DMT, I've done ayahuasca. And when you look at something like that, it is very interesting because you know, I went to a different place. I know, it was different than this, and I met someone there.

6:07 Speaker 3: Right now, I.

6:07 Speaker 2: Can't explain where I went, who I saw, but it if more people had that experience, they could come back and be like, oh, there's definitely something else, right like, because when I came back, it was like a shot out of my body and then popped back into it and you know, I'd.

6:25 Speaker 1: Met this being. And I mean, do you think that like.

6:28 Speaker 2: DMT has a place for more of a recreational or even a medical use for people that are struggling with you know, certain PTSD or maybe even abduction, you know, induction.

6:41 Speaker 1: Syndrome after they come back and they're having.

6:42 Speaker 2: A hard time, you know, people, people are very traumatized by that kind of stuff.

6:47 Speaker 3: Yeah.

6:48 Speaker 4: Well, I'm hesitant to speak authoritatively on the therapeutic benefits of a powerful drug like DMT, but in my personal experience and that of facilitating for others, I've seen a lot of wonderful things.

7:03 Speaker 3: I think.

7:04 Speaker 4: You know, psychedelics were outlawed by the Nixon administration, not out of concern for the welfare of our children, but to demonize hippies and brown people. And now after cannabis we're seeing a resurgence of clinical prestige for psychedelics, and there are a lot of studies showing obviously ketamine with the clinics and although I don't know if ketamine is technically a psychedelic, but like psilocybin and MDMA, people see lasting effects for a depression and anxiety, et cetera.

7:37 Speaker 3: And I have seen those as well.

7:40 Speaker 4: And I want to get back to something you said about it feels real, and you see that that's a really constant report from DMT users, including myself, that it feels hyper real. There's a permanence of state. I may or may not have done a lot of drugs in my younger days and when I had super long hair, but I there was no intention Yeah, thank you, and there's no intentionality.

8:10 Speaker 3: It was just messing around. But for DMT it's a completely different story.

8:17 Speaker 4: And I started doing it because I thought this might be the dimension that my father and Jacques Role and others have been talking about.

8:27 Speaker 3: So that's why I started doing it.

8:29 Speaker 4: And so I have a research interest to help experiences of DMT and other things like ghosts, aliens, what have you. Should they wish to demonstrate the objective reality of their encounters.

8:42 Speaker 3: Some don't care, Some.

8:43 Speaker 4: Don't care what everybody else has to say, but some do. And I don't care about disclosure. Screw the US government. They're bad faith, corrupt, central actor and psychedelic s ccryptocurrency and UFOs.

8:58 Speaker 3: I believe that.

8:59 Speaker 4: If experiencer there's enough, experiencers can understand the language of science. My father was an astronomer more than just a UFO guy. That was a side hustle, right right, So I grew up comfortable scientists.

9:12 Speaker 3: I know how to speak their language.

9:13 Speaker 4: And what I want to do is enable experiencers to show evidence that science understands for their encounters. And if we can have more fruitful discussions between experiencers and scientists, we can push things forward, and then the US government can hop on the caboose that they.

9:31 Speaker 3: Want to come along for the run.

9:32 Speaker 2: So, and that's what I've been saying a lot of it a lot lately in my podcast and talks is citizen journalism, citizen science, citizen scientists.

9:40 Speaker 3: There you go, and just citizens.

9:42 Speaker 2: They're going to be the ones to mount the pressure, right, you know. And then whether or not the US government wants to hop on the train is there. You know, I think it would be a good option for them right optically.

9:51 Speaker 3: And there's a parallel here.

9:53 Speaker 4: It's bitcoin, and I want to get too far off the topic, but the US government, as other governments, have and we also have to remember that the US government is not one monolithic block working logically in cohesion. They're warring fiefdoms and territorial disputes. But by and large, the US government, like many other governments, has been antagonistic to bitcoin because they rightly view it as a threat to their corrupt financial monopoly.

10:19 Speaker 3: But they can't stop it.

10:21 Speaker 4: And so now the calculus is, how do we either slow it or exploit it, or tax it, et cetera.

10:28 Speaker 3: And that's I think the position we're in with UFOs.

10:32 Speaker 4: I mean, we have a lot of people lobbying effectively and working behind the scenes to get this information out. Danny she and Steve Bassett, Ron James doing so much good work in Washington and elsewhere to get this information out. So I leave that in their capable hands, and I'm going to do the end around. It's like the Andrew Gallimore land of trying to go to source and see if I can do that, then we get them in those bastards in a pincer movement.

10:58 Speaker 2: I love I love the the target of targeting of it, the way you just pinted a good picture in my in my head. I know we don't have too much longer, but if you had a gun to your head, and wow, okay, we're getting serious, getting dark, getting dark, gun to your head. One case you had to choose to bring in front of court to prove beyond a reasonable now that something weird is going on.

11:25 Speaker 1: What's the case you bring out?

11:28 Speaker 4: Pastool is a great one, right, because there are a lot of elements for that. And we talked about how over the years more and more witnesses come forward.

11:37 Speaker 3: That's not typical. You have added layers of corroboration.

11:42 Speaker 4: And as you know, I know, I knew Calvin Parker, yes, from when I was a kid. I took a phone call when he called, and he's just solid, salt of the earth guy who didn't want that stuff to happen. And I know, I'm sure you know that when they were in the police station being integrogated actually, and there's a tape recorder and the police left, and ostensibly Calvin and Charlie didn't know that the tape recorder was going wrong. Now we don't know for sure that they didn't know, but it certainly seems consistent because these are not actors, These are not media savvy folks at the time, and it just seemed to ring true given how they would feel after an incident of this magnitude.

12:36 Speaker 4: And that's something my father follow in very compelling, and so yeah, I'll ride or Die with Pastor Hula baby wow.

12:44 Speaker 2: And you know, because the audio tape, because I have I have a lot of the evidence which I'm going to be compiling, and when I listen to that tape, it gives me clear it's like the same one as the Randallsham audio tape. Yeah, you're when you're listening to it, you can feel that year. You can feel it in there. There's something so raw about it.

13:04 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, so past google Yeah, and you know, shout out to Philip Mantle because he's kind of like the archives or curator of this ongoing, living, breathing case, right, and.

13:16 Speaker 2: He's done in such a great job and just getting you know, people together and people.

13:22 Speaker 1: Talking about the case.

13:23 Speaker 2: And that's what's gotten the more and more people to come out because they're you know, the way he's finding these people are incredible. You know, it's in a comment they mentioned something like, oh my mom might have been there, that's weird, and then he.

13:36 Speaker 4: Follows up, Oh, I mean that's dog and detective work.

13:41 Speaker 1: And the guy is just like I was. Gonna says that he's a hound when it comes to pass.

13:45 Speaker 2: Gula in these certain cases. And he's a very skeptical person. People don't realize like he doesn't just you know, believe, because he wants to believe. He's considered this beyond a reasonable doubt. Yeah, And I think it's a perfect title, right, beyond a reasonable I think something extraordinary happened in past Gula. Uh And I think the I think the the Navy knows it. The navy was there.

14:10 Speaker 1: It was the Navy of the Air Force that went in after they were they were on the ships and they saw blue light under the water.

14:17 Speaker 2: So there's documentation, like actual military documents that seemed to have gone missing about you know, seeing a.

14:25 Speaker 1: Blue light underwater, and you know blue light.

14:28 Speaker 2: Is it seems to play a central theme in a lot of cases, this blue light that either and comes before or is the craft that they see and then they're either abducted or they wake up in their bed and later on they get progressed and find.

14:44 Speaker 1: Out that they were abducted.

14:46 Speaker 4: So this blue Light show, are you saying that we should market for potential abductees blue blocker glasses.

14:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, have a good idea. Yeah, yeah, Well I don't know if that would keep the craft away. I think they emanate that blue light.

14:59 Speaker 2: But I really you know, like I said, I'm convinced that Passable happened, whether it happened exactly the way that we think it happened. You know, there might be variation in detailed memories flawed, but when you have that many people, we have over forty witnesses to the event, to the initial event, two of the witnesses saw what they think was Calvin and Charles get abducted, right, and then they were abducted themselves, So very very odd, very odd case. So I'm glad you that's the one you bring up if you had a gun to your head.

15:34 Speaker 2: But I don't want to waste too much more time. I want to say thank you for doing this and thank you for being here. I would love to have you on the podcast long form. Maybe if you find yourself in Boston, or I can fly you in and bring you into the studio.

15:49 Speaker 1: We could sit down and do like a full length.

15:51 Speaker 3: You know, I just checked my calendar and I'm free that day.

15:54 Speaker 1: Okay, well you heard it here, guys.

15:56 Speaker 2: Thank you for everyone who came to contact the Desert, and thank you for everyone who will be watching these In the future, We'll be putting them out as episodes, but then also recutting some of the footage for documentaries that I'm working on. So Paul, I just want to say thank you again, and can I wish you the best on your your work, your research and that pincer movement, and all right, let's go.

16:20 Speaker 1: Thank you.

16:31 Speaker 2: M M