Veteran Timothy Short: “Disaster MissionTo Indonesia” Michael Herreras fellow Marine Speaks out!

1:15 Speaker 1: All right, welcome back to Total Disclosure.

1:17 Speaker 2: Everybody.

1:18 Speaker 1: My name is Ty and I am the host and creator of the program. Today. I want to start off with a couple dedications. This week, Unfortunately, we lost one of my favorite people in the community. I've done a lot of work behind the scenes with Congress and the Nuclear Witnesses, mainly Bob Salice, Robert Sallie and his wife. Marilyn has passed away a couple of days ago.

1:56 Speaker 2: She was like a damn.

2:01 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't mean for this to start off sappy and sad. I called her. I called her my UFO community mother. She'd remind me to eat, she would send me nutrition like facts. She was a real, real health nut. I dedicate every episode going forward to her, to my own mother. I hope they are looking down with much more answers than we have here, and I hope that they are somewhere, somewhere better. So Marilyn was a rock to Bob, she was a rock to many people. Her voice could calm calm anything. It could calm a storm, it would defeat an army.

2:51 Speaker 1: She she was just that person. So not being said today, we have a pretty great, amazing show for you today. In the mid two thousands, following one of the deadliest natural disasters in modern history, US marines were deployed to Indonesia on what was officially described as a humanitarian aid and that camera just went out already and disaster relief mission. But years later that mission would become the center of one of the more controversial whistleblower claims in modern UAP history. Marine Michael Herrera had gone on record has gone on record stating that during this operation his unit was ambushed not by simple insurgents or a foreign military, but by an elite, unidentified paramilitary force wearing no insignia, all black uniforms, advanced weaponry, advanced technology, and Herrera claim these men were These men disarmed his team with so much ease that it felt all too unfamiliar for these marines.

4:06 Speaker 1: And what they were guarding was not just human technology actually at all. What they were guarding was a craft and it was hovering, silent, and it was open underneath cargo trucks moving in and out. Now on TDP for the first time, we are joined by another marine who says that he was on the same mission. Marine veteran Timothy Short is here to give a tell all account of what he says really happened in Indonesia, What lies I'm off, what lines up with her ERR's story, what doesn't, and what as rarely if ever then said publicly until now.

4:57 Speaker 1: That is so without further ado, make sure to like, share, subscribe all that stuff.

5:03 Speaker 2: This is total disclosure.

5:07 Speaker 3: Mmm.

5:22 Speaker 1: I was a little off there. I didn't I didn't expect to get as emotional about Marylyn. I apologize for that, but thank you, thank you so much for being here.

5:33 Speaker 2: No, I mean it's uh, it's great, you know, Like, yeah, it's hard when you lose people that you care about, and uh, you know, this week's sucks.

5:46 Speaker 1: This week was terrible for me. It was just gut punch after gut punch. I told you about the studio and the apartment situation. That plus I mean, it's just been it's been a shitty we but you and I have been trying to get together for I don't know, Uh it was before I went to d C. I know that we had plans to do this, to do this episode. And I want to say this right out front, just to make it very very clear. I interviewed Michael Herrera. I genuinely like to stay neutral. When he told his story in front of the National Press Club, I was intrigued.

6:31 Speaker 1: His story, I Will not lie definitely stuck out amongst the rest of all of the rest of them. His intrigued me in a way that others didn't, So I knew I had to talk to the guy. I talked to him, and and honestly, I was like, I was kind of impressed, But I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't hear everything out. You've you've you've sent me pictures of you and him. He's never given me those types of things. So at first I wanted to start off, can you introduce yourself a little bit better maybe than I did, and just let me know you know a little bit about yourself and and and why you're doing.

7:13 Speaker 2: What you're doing. Well, you know, I thought you introduced me pretty well.

7:18 Speaker 3: You know.

7:19 Speaker 2: I like that video. It really slaps in my base here in my headset. But uh uh, my my name's tim Timothy short Uh. I was an three thirty one attached to second second Platoon, Echo Company two five. I was there on the USS Denver with my machine gun team, working like right alongside the three elevens. Who was Michael Herrera and Nathan Labram, Mendez, a couple other guys. Yeah, that that picture. So the picture of me that's on the smoke deck of the USS Denver as we were sailing to Indonesia. Those are some pictures I took of Herrera and another guy.

8:07 Speaker 1: I got a question, is this Herrera too?

8:10 Speaker 2: No, that's actually a picture of Booth, who A lot of people who have followed this, uh carefully right, Booth was in one of the photos Nathan Labram put forward that he had taken of Herrera and Booth flying into the mission. So when I started first started working with Joey, he was telling me that he had spent all this time trying to get a hold of Booth, and nobody seemed to be able to get a hold of him or whatever to ask him his account. So I was able to pull him up on Facebook and chat with him with Booth and so, you know, some of these pictures of the pictures that I had sent to him, and so I included that picture of myself and Booth, you know, as kind of like a lateral way of saying like, hey, I was there with Booth and her Ara and everything.

9:09 Speaker 1: So yeah, you know that was so so you guys, what happens like what happened in Indonesia and why you guys get called out.

9:24 Speaker 2: Well, So, originally we were actually in the Philippines. A little known part of this story is that we actually started in the Philippines. We were there on a training mission at what used to be Fort Clark is kind of a decommissioned army base from like Vietnam that they had decided not to staff anymore. And we were there training with the Filipino Marines when a hurricane had hit the Philippines when we showed up. So our original humanitary mission was in the Philippines. And essentially the way I was told is that two kind of hurricanes hit each other and kind of blasted Manila out.

10:12 Speaker 2: So the first day that we were there, you know, me and my team, we rode with the fire truck from Subic Bay. I have a T shirt somewhere from that fire crew that we rode with to Manila. But we weren't in Manila long when we everybody in second platoons, so it's weapons attachments, my team, you know, obviously Herrera's team. Anybody who's in the second platoon was told to load up, grab all their gear and head back to the Denver. So the Denver was the ship that we were staying on while the rest of two five was on the Essex because they you know, they you know, we were split up amongst the ships because we had different functions.

10:59 Speaker 2: The Denver so we were a track company and the Denver was a track ship. I'm pretty sure I sent you a picture of those tracks loaded on the back of the Denver. But we loaded all our gear up on the Denver and we sailed down to Indonesia like that's it. Those are tracks, So like that's actually the back end of the Denver and it pops down like that and all of the armored tracks like sailing through the water, ah, colecting the bottom of the ship. Interesting, So that was actually us loading the the amphibious vehicles on the Denver right there to head out.

11:41 Speaker 1: So okay, and I gotta, I gotta, I want to jump in here. What what were like the official what what were the official orders?

11:51 Speaker 2: Like?

11:51 Speaker 1: What were you armed?

11:53 Speaker 2: Like?

11:53 Speaker 1: Like what you know, you're not going into a war zone, so I have to assume your you're gear might not be the same like what you're bringing in, what you're carrying in might not be the same as if you were deploying to like say Afghanistan at the peak or Iraq at the at the you know, during the invasion, what what was like some of your personal gear that you had that that you were going to carry into the field every day.

12:23 Speaker 2: Well, we, you know, as an infantry company, we did have like our full battle rattle obviously, like everywhere that we went, we would have our full you know armor. I was a machine gunner, so I carried a two forty, but we would have you know, our rifles, pistols, what have you. They were just on the armory and the ship and then we would take them out as needed because obviously you don't really want to like just be walking around with weapons, you.

12:53 Speaker 1: Know, safe to say you had comms and everything.

12:57 Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. So Actually, so this is kind of like been debated in this whole thing before. But and I had mentioned it when I was talking with Joey, is that the first day that we rolled out on these operations, we had our full complement of weapons. But every other mission we did after that, we didn't have weapons anymore. And so the missions that we did up into the hills where Herrera claims to have seen this craft. He didn't have any weapons. We didn't nobody had any weapons. So right off the bat, you know, in his story he claims that his team, he was leading a team, and that they all had weapons.

13:49 Speaker 1: Which were then you know like I guess, you know, well, and.

13:53 Speaker 2: We'll get there.

13:53 Speaker 1: I'll do a little retelling of like the Herrera story. But you know, essentially this like paramilitary group just you know, without them even really realizing what's about to happen, they're just you know, surrounded and then you know, like disarmed, you know, put to their knees, like essentially like like you're about to die, like on your knees in a firing squad. That's what That's what he made it out to be like. So going back, I just that's what.

14:28 Speaker 2: I wanted to know.

14:29 Speaker 1: What kind of equipment you guys were carrying into the junk, you know, into this into this relief mission.

14:36 Speaker 2: Well see that's what makes this, uh such like an interesting story, right, because if you were attacked by these paramilitaries, right and all you had on you was a pistol and nothing else, it would make sense how they could overcome six six six trained US Marines, right if all you had was a pistol, because you're doing this humanitarian mission, you don't have your battle rattle or whatever, that would make more sense. And yet every time that he's told the story, he had his saw on him, he was in full battle rattle, he had like all his weapons.

15:17 Speaker 2: So it doesn't make sense to me. And no time when I was ever trained, or anybody I know was ever trained, do you just give up your weapons to unknown forces you die? You have the oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean.

15:33 Speaker 1: Because okay, and and this is like this is big for me, and I guess maybe now I'm kind of like, oh shit, because I mean I come from a marine family, you know, And maybe that's what's always like never felt right to me, is from what I've been I'm not. I'm not. I was never in the military. I did think about it for a while, but I have crones. So I was disqualified because I had a pre existing like chronic illness. Yea, But I know that the Marines are usually first in, last out. They're the they're the the they're the the the dog, you know, like they they they are very very well trained.

16:20 Speaker 1: You know their land and like almost amphibious, you know, almost a combination of the Navy in the army, the best of both worlds. Like I've always known Marines to be, you know, the number one slot, like you know right before like you get to your special forces and stuff, just in terms of training. So the way that these guys kind of just like took over and took them down, that never felt right to me, But I mean it is what it is.

16:54 Speaker 2: That's a real you know in the um J right and are uh you know marine codes as well. You know, surrender is your last resort at all times, like your absolute last resort. So if his story was correct where he had six marines, which that it's not even true. But anyways, even if we're saying history is correct, which is not, if he had six marines full AMMO rifles and their squad automatic weapons and they surrendered first, it doesn't even make sense like logic to me, you know.

17:38 Speaker 1: So Okay, going going back, I think I got a little off track there when I went off on the little tangent.

17:44 Speaker 2: Let's talk. Okay, what year is this? Uh, this is two thousand and nine and nine.

17:52 Speaker 1: You touched down, you're there you get you get to where you need to be right talk now, I want to hear it.

18:00 Speaker 2: I want to be there with you. Okay, So we all so we all roll up on the Denver, right, and the Denver has a short flight deck on the back and it has like that large cargo area with the tracks in it yep, and then it's kind of a smaller ship. You know, we're pretty much kind of in tight quarters. So on the half day that we're rolling in. On the half day we're rolling in, they start giving us like intel briefs of like who are locals in the area, which the main one is Jemia Islamia. They're like a HU branch.

18:48 Speaker 2: So that was like our main like, hey, you know these guys are in the area. You know, this is two thousand and nine, so it's the height of you know, the global war on terror. So obviously, you know our main threats are you know, radical right Islam.

19:08 Speaker 1: To maybe take advantage of the situation, ambush you know whatever.

19:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, they tell us about those guys and then they start laying out this plan. So essentially what had happened in Indonesia, right, because you know, let's be honest. Third world country. It's not the most developed country on the planet. We were first going to head out and drop some engineers and some other people and drop supplies off at their local air Force base first. That that was gonna be our first mission. And their air Force base is now International Airport, it's not even a base there anymore.

19:53 Speaker 2: But our plan was to load up, head out to the airport, and and then once we had supplied their local troops, we were going to get clear kind of mission parameters because obviously, so when you do these humanitarian missions, I did a bunch of them. I was in Japan, you know, after the earthquake in twenty eleven. Obviously the one of the Philippines this one. So you're there as guests. You're there as guests of the nation, right, so like you're kind of at their beck and call. You're not just running your own operations, right Like they kind of just say, hey, this is where we need help, this is the kind of help that we need, and you just go do the best that you can to help them out, right.

20:49 Speaker 2: So when we flew out on that mission to the airport, we loaded all four birds. It was pretty much all as second platoon and my team was actually split up amongst the birds. So as a machine gunner, we carry all the heaviest stuff, right, so they choose kind of the biggest dudes and training to become machine gunners because you got to carry, I mean you you sometimes you got to manually carry, like, you know, the big machine guns, you know, fifty pound M two's on top of them, on top of the.

21:24 Speaker 1: Rutsack.

21:25 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so uh, suffice to say, machine gunners, we can move heavy stuff. So we were split amongst the four birds, because my team was four people, we were split amongst the four birds, and we were going to be the unload offload kind of, we were going to do the grunt work. Why the elevens did the security on site, right, So at that time, everybody though was armed. So just so it's clear, I want to like lay out this timeline of armed versus unarmed, Right. This is where people who have tried to like either pick apart the story or defend the story or whatever.

22:06 Speaker 2: This is kind of one of those pain points if you will, of like the story. So that first mission to the airfield, not out into the jungle at all, to the airfield, everybody had their weapons on them. Except for the machine gunners. We left the machine guns in the armory. We just had our pistols. So we flew out to the airfield started offloading supplies, and that's when we met our on site contact, who was a Indonesian colonel general. You know, I don't really know their ranks. He was extremely high up and he when he showed up on the airfield and started coming our way.

22:53 Speaker 2: I remember I was there, and this dude looked like he was lit on fire. Like the guy was yelling in Indonesian. Nobody could understand what he was saying. His arms are flapping like yeah, but I mean he was. He was heated though, and what he was heated about was that we had our weapons. Like he was so offended that we had brought on everything to the airfield because he had said, like, hey, you guys look like an invading force. We called for help, and you guys are here like looking like you're gonna, you know, take over our country, which I mean we probably could have, let's be honest, but uh, you know, to do it.

23:42 Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, he was super offended that everybody had weapons. So he was trying to say, get all these people out of here. Get all these armed troops out of here, right and if you guys, if you guys come back, I don't want anybody to have weapons on them. So essentially we had unloaded, everybody loaded back up, and we flew back to the Denver. And while we were there on the Denver, there was like a leadership meeting and at the time, my squad leader, he didn't want to run. He was what we call terminal lance.

24:22 Speaker 2: He kind of had senior itis. This was his last deployment and then he was done in the Marines. He didn't really he was kind of packing it in, if you will. So he had sent me and David Johnson, my best friend, to be like the representatives for the machine gun team at all the meetings. And that's how I kind of have this knowledge of the meetings, Whereas like Nathan when he gave his testimony on like Vetted or some of these other places, he didn't really know too much of like the in depth because of like his position.

24:57 Speaker 4: Right.

24:58 Speaker 2: So that's what I feel like, is you know, good about me coming out to tell this story is because I'm like, I have some of these operational details that I can.

25:13 Speaker 1: You can fill in some of the gaps. Yeah, because so when you come back, When you come back, obviously you guys regroup and you're like, all right, we have to kind of go about this a little bit differently. How do we how do we help but not look like a bad guy?

25:33 Speaker 2: You know?

25:33 Speaker 1: How do we so I can I can wrap my head around that. But you guys are still not going to go in there unprotected for.

25:42 Speaker 2: Lack obviously not. So the compromise became the guys who are going out to do site security, they wouldn't wear their battle rattle. And that's why in those pictures of Booth and Labraham that Joey had showed, none of them have actual armor on, but they pretty much emptied. We emptied the armory of pistols, and everybody who went out used pistols, but we only had about five or six of them. So what we had to do is we had this structure the groups of who's going out there by how many pistols we had, because we didn't want to have like, we didn't want to send an entire squad of twelve guys out and only have half of them armed that the other guys are just standing there with their you know, hands empty like like it's Stalingrad.

26:36 Speaker 2: Like one guy's a pistol, one guy doesn't like you know. So what I had mentioned to Joey is that it so it became this rotational like setup. Right, So we we ran a mission in the morning, and then we would run a mission in the afternoon, and in between we would have the low the birds. So essentially, like all the ships like warships, you see all along the bottom of them, like in the holes of the ship, right, they have like tons of supplies, tons of supplies, food, what have you. Those were our birds that we were on.

27:21 Speaker 1: And I love this picture. Man, I don't know, I don't know why. It just elicits a reaction.

27:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that that was them swinging in supplies pretty much like but we had supplies that that bird had supplies on the bottom that they had rigged, and then there was supplies in the top. So what they would do is they would drop the drop the supplies and then park the bird and then unload the supplies that are actually in it. But so then we had this rotation where it was like one squad would go out in the more I mean, one squad would do chores on the ship one squad would rest and it would rotate like that, and mostly our chores on the ship was either working in the galley, which was like the cat cuffterior on the ship.

28:16 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, or we were moving stuff on like we were. So the supplies, they can't be taken to the flight deck easily. There's no like elevator or whatever, so you'd have to like work it up through the ship like box by box, people passing stuff in like a line, like yeah, literally a line of like people just moving stuff on the ship to get it up to the flight deck. So for me though, my machine gun team, though we were on every rotation because we were gonna be like the cargo guys, we were gonna load an offload.

29:00 Speaker 2: So it didn't matter which mission, whether it was Herrera's mission or any of them. I was there because because of what you did loading and unloading. And that also meant I spent a lot of time in the air right on a helicopter just looking out the window. So it'd be kind of hard for me to miss a three hundred foot UFO rising out of the tree line and flying off.

29:26 Speaker 1: But or a team being fucking put to their knees and you know, held at gunpoint like that would have probably that would have been a big story, would.

29:39 Speaker 2: It not be?

29:41 Speaker 1: Uh?

29:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, we would have went in, got our weapons and burned that whole.

29:45 Speaker 1: Fucking jungle to the ground.

29:48 Speaker 2: That's pretty much.

29:49 Speaker 1: So talk to me, what do you and again we'll get I'm trying to build this in a crescen crescendoing way. What what was a normal operation? Not like you guys go out in the morning, right, yeah, what does normal What does a normal operation look like? What are you doing there? Aside from giving supplies? Like are you are you grabbing people up? Are you are you getting them to safety? Is it Katrina like? Is it like that?

30:19 Speaker 2: No? No? So uh. There was a lot of search and rescue ops in Jakarta City, which was next to us. But essentially what that Air Force colonel or admiral general, whatever he was, what he wanted us to do was use our bird power or or helicopter power to deliver supplies up into some of these remote areas because what it had happened is the earthquake had like their roads are not very good, so the earthquake had completely mid mudslide out all of the roads going out of the city, so they couldn't bring supplies to anybody up in kind of these remote areas with any other trucks.

30:57 Speaker 2: And we couldn't use our tracks because we could have used our tracks. We could have really gone in force and like carried a lot of load, but we couldn't use trucks. They couldn't use trucks. We couldn't use our tracks, right, because all of these country roads were just completely collaps bud blud caved out right. So, and you know, that goes into somewhat of his story of him saying that these guys that captured them, they were moving humans on big F one fifty or F three fifties or whatever.

31:31 Speaker 1: To be fair, he didn't say humans originally. That came half yeah, that yeah, he didn't know what was in the boxes. He was told later by Jake Barber that it was human beings and that they were most likely, you know, this left handed male type of person, because that's the best psionic asset. So the story stretches with multiple people, and this is where I want to eventually talk about that, but yeah, I'll defend Mike here. He did not originally he never said human beings. He said he thought it was like he didn't know, he thought it was drugs originally.

32:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, either way, those trucks, how are they driving their F three fifties if the road is way too mud slid out for us to bring our tracks or our trucks or the Indonesians bring their trucks up there they deliver supplies. Why did they specifically need us the helo supplies up there? And the reason it was the roads were too bad? So how are they driving around in F three fifties or whatever if the roads were too bad, is what I'm saying, right, So.

32:50 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, fair enough, fair enough, that is an interesting point. Interesting point, however, I don't think it's that's not I don't know. Maybe that's like add that to the list of like, huh, that's that's weird.

33:08 Speaker 2: Sure, I understand it's a nitpick, but I'm trying to weave this quilt, if you will, of information.

33:18 Speaker 1: So but but let's let's continue down that road.

33:23 Speaker 2: So okay, So yeah, in the morning, we would load up one helicopter uh with the crew that was going out, right, so the Marines that were going out, So it would have been uh a team essentially, so each squad is like three teams. It would be a team that would go out. They would be loaded with pistols and nothing else.

33:49 Speaker 1: Under any circumstance would you go out with no comms.

33:53 Speaker 2: No, everybody had comms. So the officer on site he has a radio operator. Are radio operator was a little guy named Zavala. And then each team leader in person had their black gear, which is kind of like a smaller radio. It's not like so the green gear is like the big, huge radio that the radio operator carries and can like broadcast hardcore. And then like the black gears what we called it is is called like it's kind of like a walkie talkie, glorified walkie talkie, if you will. Like so it's more of like.

34:36 Speaker 1: You're not calling in air strikes, right, You're just you're your community. It's literally communication, Like that's what it's just there for is to communicate. Again, you're not there calling in you know, air raid like air strikes, you're not. There's not that kind of need. So and it saves you space.

35:00 Speaker 2: You know, everybody having them carry huge radios.

35:02 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And it's it's a kind of a small place, so you don't need this huge range radio. So that makes sense. So how about how many people per team?

35:16 Speaker 2: I would say that there was a about six give or take per team, which technically is considered a team plus under the breakdown for us, Like, so any team is supposed to be four people and then four. Our three teams of four become a squad, right, But we had six pistols. So usually when they went out, they had the officer, they had the radio operator, and then they had the four guys who were gonna work that morning shift. Right, So Herrera would have been one of the four. If you've seen that picture of him and Booth flying out, it's him Booth, Nathan's taking the picture, and then you just don't see the fourth guy on the heat on the helo.

36:00 Speaker 2: But essentially that first helo would fly out mostly with crew, not supplies, yep. Those so like the helo would fly out and they would drop the crew off and they would secure the site. Now I put that in quotes because like how much are you really securing with just a pistol? And mostly it was they were going to stay out there to give the locals, like like a point of reference if you will, like our places, show up and get supplies so some of those pictures Joey had had in his video showed like Nathan and Booth and them like drinking coconuts that some kids had given them.

36:46 Speaker 2: There was some of the locals around. They were essentially there to like hold the area and tell people to come up right. So then that first plane would drop them off, and then the other three would be getting low loaded and then would fly out. Whenever it got loaded, it would fly out to that site. Stop, drop everything, unload everything, you know, make sure everything's okay. I think on one of the missions when my when my helicopter landed, some guy had like heat stroke, so they like were like, hey, we're going to just send him back or not a heat stroke.

37:23 Speaker 4: But like a.

37:26 Speaker 2: You know, dehydrated or whatever. I don't know. They were like yeah, So they put him on the bird and he flew back with us right and then like another bird would land you know, pretty much ten minutes afterwards. So there was always helicopters in the air the whole time,

37:48 Speaker 2: and me and my team were on them the whole time.

37:52 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of a lot of movement by by teams plural. There's a lot going on. There's helicopters in the air. You know, it's a it's a constant Like again, you're you're not taking this as a joke. You're you're you're you're there to do a job. And and and the whole platoon that's there is doing it, yes and turning it out. So if you have heroes in the air, again, that raises a question for me, how does nobody else see this craft? So I'm starting to get those kind of questions, like if there's constant movement, how did if this craft does does exist.

38:37 Speaker 2: How did it get in and out unnoticed? How are they?

38:41 Speaker 1: How are they doing this? Like you know what I mean? Is it? Is it some I'm trying to weigh this stuff in my head, but all right, keep going.

38:50 Speaker 2: I'm very intrigued by this. Well, okay, so that's I guess so opera rationally, that's how it went right, That's pretty much it. Essentially, it would hit around noon lunchtime, if you will, and the very last bird on the morning shift would essentially pick up whatever team was there doing security. I put into air quotes because how much security really doing with just pistol. But they would load up that team, fly them back onto the denver and then everybody would pretty much have lunch in the galley and then we would rotate, so now a new team would be the team going out, So like the first bird, they would load up on the first bird and fly out and like to set security right.

39:41 Speaker 2: And then you know, the team that had been resting, they were hauling boxes to load the the helicopters, you know, full supplies, and then those helicopters would go out when they were full, and the whole shebang would start again. We would run through the whole afternoon operation, same thing, pick up that security team, fly them back, and then at night everybody was just kind of off. Everybody had dinner, and then it was just kind of planning, and you know, they secured the birds like that picture that I had sent you, like the bird kind of like secured.

40:20 Speaker 2: That's what they would do at night is safe space on that small deck. They would like pop down the yeah you can see the rotors. They would like pop them down so they were condensed, and then they would chain them to the back of the of the deck or whatever so they didn't slide off.

40:38 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, you don't want to lose a bird that way.

40:41 Speaker 2: Not like that. I mean, that's like a couple of million dollar machine or something.

40:46 Speaker 1: You just let that slide into the ocean on a relief mission. But okay, so now we kind of we kind of we've kind of gone over what's happening on the day to day. Right the overall mission? What give me one sentence what the overall mission was? Was it just like, is it, Hey, we're here to help people, give them aid and to get out right? Is that is that safe to say?

41:16 Speaker 2: It was mostly to supply remote areas of Indonesia?

41:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, with that being said, let's watch. I want to get into this really now. I want to I want to take the Herrera story. You cut in and out a little bit there, or I'm cutting in and out.

41:38 Speaker 2: I don't know.

41:42 Speaker 1: That's okay, you know what I think it might be you I'm gonna.

41:45 Speaker 2: I'm gonna.

41:46 Speaker 1: What I want to do right now is I want to play this video. It's it's just a quick three minute video of Herrera describing the craft that he saw, and now we can kind of get into that part of the of the story. And because I think it'd be unfair to not hear him tell his own side and hold on, let me get this up here. We're gonna go full screen. There we go. So this is from a friend of the show Reality Check News Nation.

42:19 Speaker 2: Uh.

42:19 Speaker 1: This is Ross coltheart. I'll be speaking with uh Meighan in a couple of weeks at the end of February. I'm really excited about that. I met her at the James Fox National Press Club event and she's so so very, so very nice. So here is Michael her Era on News Nation.

42:37 Speaker 2: Really good one second, so I can't hear you. I might have to reset.

42:48 Speaker 1: That's okay, Yeah, refresh the page, okay, yeah, and you'll go in and out and when this video will just keep playing.

42:59 Speaker 5: I created thing, my estimates to be about three hundred feet in diameter. The shape of it was like octagonal because I could see when it was rotating, you could see where the shadowing was affecting some of the areas that weren't basically reflecting part of the sun or whatnot, so you could see like the sections. And then I had like a scale pattern on this thing that weight. It could have been a circular pattern, it could have been an octagonal, it could have been hexagonal. So again we weren't that close enough to make out those fine details.

43:30 Speaker 5: There were these panels basically on all the ridges that were black, and it was like the blackest black that I've ever seen, and like you could shine a laser.

43:40 Speaker 2: Into this thing and it would basically absorb that light.

43:43 Speaker 5: And then you know, being an octagonal shaped craft with three hundred feet, I mean, that's pretty obvious to see something like that rotating. It's obviously not a building, it's not any kind of conventional aircraft that I've ever seen, and the fact that it.

43:59 Speaker 6: Didn't make any dreitional noise for propulsion.

44:02 Speaker 7: So just so unclear. You've got presumably some kind of disc source shaped craft hovering above a platform below it, and there's no visible connection of any kind of constructive material between the platform and the craft above it. No what's on the platform, so.

44:24 Speaker 2: They as that's going on.

44:25 Speaker 5: When we got held up, there were some trucks that started to drive into the picture, and I had estimated there were at four f three fifties.

44:34 Speaker 8: They were that type here anything.

44:36 Speaker 5: They could have been toileter tundras, but they didn't have any marketing me either.

44:40 Speaker 2: No logo. Yeah, and they can hear me, but I can't hear anything outline.

44:44 Speaker 8: They also had.

44:47 Speaker 5: Off roading capabilities, like you could tell that these things were beefed up to handle that kind of terrain, and they had these containers that they were pulling that they were essentially loading onto the platform underneath this craft. And as that's going on, we're looking at the people that are holding us up because they're stripping us of our weapons or take the amol out of our pouches, and they're threatening to kill us. The entire time they took our IDs out of our left breast pocket, which I don't know how these guys unless you know that was my speculation that these guys were US military at one point, because they knew where we kept our IDs, you know, and it's they were also American.

45:24 Speaker 5: But the way that they moved, the way that they actually engaged us with the tactics they've had is something that's advanced, you know, and it's something that they've it was well done enough to the point where you could tell they maybe rehearse this or they've done it quite a bit to where they knew exactly what to do at.

45:42 Speaker 6: That point and how to deal with people who were armed like us.

45:46 Speaker 7: Were these men showing any kind of ribbons, patches, identifying name patches, anything like that.

45:56 Speaker 5: No, not a single thing.

45:58 Speaker 7: What were they wearing what kind of place?

46:00 Speaker 2: I think black clothing.

46:02 Speaker 5: I mean something that you would see like a like a swat officer would wear something along the lines of that. You know, they have black bulletproof vests or flat jackets. And they were wearing ball caps. They didn't wear helmet. Can you hear me, they were just regular baseball caps.

46:19 Speaker 2: I'm good to go.

46:21 Speaker 7: They were obviously armed. Did they show you any kind of ID Did they express any kind of authorization other than pointing a weapon in your face?

46:31 Speaker 6: No, they just said we weren't We weren't supposed to be there.

46:34 Speaker 5: And you know, they.

46:34 Speaker 2: Started basically saying we could kill you. We could.

46:37 Speaker 6: It's easy to get lost out.

46:39 Speaker 5: In the jungle.

46:49 Speaker 1: Okay, so let me this is still playing in my back backside. So we just listened to I know you were having a little issue, so you didn't get to you didn't get to hear it. But uh, we just we just heard Michael explain the incident in a very it was like a four minute clip.

47:11 Speaker 3: Uh.

47:11 Speaker 1: He explained the entire incident from what it looked like, I'm gonna now ask you some questions, So don't worry as long as you know that.

47:19 Speaker 2: That's uh, that's actually one of the videos I broke down in that document I sent you.

47:25 Speaker 1: Which I'm gonna share it them. Yeah, I'll share that in a moment. Okay, Actually, do you want to share it now? Did you want to or do you want to just go break it.

47:34 Speaker 2: Down however you want to do it? You're the host.

47:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess so, I guess I should make those decisions in my head instead of speaking them aloud. But

47:47 Speaker 1: this craft, he says, So now he is on a essentially he's on one of these missions that you're talking about. Sounds like he's in he's trying to say that he's on the the afternoon or the the ripe as daybreak or day end is happening dawn, you know, so he's out there at that hour. It sounds like I was never really sure exactly what time the incident happened. But him and his team, which is made up of five or six people including himself, which don't have they don't have comms. They're walking, according to okay, okay, according to him, they don't have comms.

48:35 Speaker 1: They're they're walking through the jungle. I don't know what. I don't know what they're doing. Are they carrying supplies? He never really says it. What are they doing? Are they just going for a search and rescue? I So so that question comes into play. But on that whatever like walking trip, he's in the jungle, and all of a sudden he's surrounded by an elite for lack of a better term, paramilitary like elite, skilled trained force, wearing no insignia, all black, like all black everything, advanced technology like like what we would call like an iPhone today, like in twenty sixteen, you know, but in two thousand and nine, right again, this is a different time.

49:32 Speaker 1: So they're using like scanners, like like they're scanning IDs with these advanced machines, which we know can be done now. And so that part of it I've never had a problem with. We know that DARPA is ahead of us by many years. The military, especially an elite force like this, what they would have. Theoretically, this checks out. What doesn't check out for me is that they his Michael's team had no comms. According to him, they are fully armed. They're not just carrying pistols, right, they have everything, and they are essentially surrounded and within seconds made to look like bitches.

50:18 Speaker 1: I'll say it, bitches. Every marine I've ever met is one thing crazy, but they are not bitches.

50:29 Speaker 2: So, all of a.

50:30 Speaker 1: Sudden, five very trained marines on a relief mission walking through the jungle and they're overtaken by a group of paramilitary something and then in the ruckus they're put to their knees told you're gonna you could get lost out here, You're you're gonna die out here in the jungle. And in that distance, Michael sees, uh, this operation happening vantable three hundred feet for the record, that's pretty fucking large, but it's pretty low to the ground. It's vanta black. It's like octagonal shaped, so it's got a lot of paneling like sides, so it's not seamless like you would think a UFO is not like the one I saw.

51:20 Speaker 1: But so in the background of being held at gunpoint, he sees what they're guarding. And they're guarding this operation where they're bringing trucks and they're loading onto this craft, this pedestal, this pad, and they're driving the trucks onto the pad, the pad is lifting up, connecting with the bottom of the ship and then you know whatever they're unloaded that comes back down, Rinse and.

51:49 Speaker 2: Repeat, and this is happening. You were there.

51:55 Speaker 1: Why didn't this happen?

51:57 Speaker 2: It sounds.

52:01 Speaker 1: When I heard it. Of course I had doubts. I always have doubts. Tell me why it didn't happen.

52:11 Speaker 2: Well, so that document I mentioned, I have some timestamps from that News Nation in Reality Check video, right though, a lot of them. A lot of the points I have on here if you look at them like they're countering kind of what he said in his Sean Ryan interview. So there is a lot of like discrepancies between the two of them. So a lot of that is what's on here. But you know, some of the main points I took away from that that interview, right, and why I don't think this happened, right is, obviously he says they have weapons.

52:54 Speaker 2: They did not have weapons. We already explained the whole airport thing and not having weapons. They had just pistols. But he claims that they were fully armed, fully you know, fully loaded what have you right? Loaded for bear and that they rolled out in a six man team. So One of the things that changed from his other interview to this one is he no longer says he was leading the team, because I think he was getting heat from that from both Nathan Labram and myself both claiming that he wasn't in a leadership position.

53:31 Speaker 2: Right Plus, the six man team, yes, there's probably six people there, but it doesn't really make sense that all six would go because he claimed that they were going to set up an ope, which is an observation point. So, oh, that's what their goal was. That's what he claimed in the Sean Ryan Show. It became more or vague as time goes on, but he claims that they were setting up a kind of like overwatch position on their security site, and that he was supposed to lead the team and set up this overwatch position three hundred meters away.

54:18 Speaker 2: But when you're in triple canopy jungle in Indonesia, what use is a three hundred meters away observation post is triple canopy jungle, you can't walk to feet without seeing anything, So it doesn't really make sense that he was on this op. Right. Plus, if there's only six people on the team, you don't send all six people to create an observation post. You know, you usually send like one or two people and they're kind of in a flinked pattern that a.

54:54 Speaker 1: More tactical that would be like something you'd want a minimal tax, more tactical agile, like be able to move kind of quick force, like you'd want to send out a couple guys to do to set something like that up, not an entire team, like you said.

55:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean it kind of you know, just tactically, it doesn't make sense, right, And so he was claiming that he was sent up a slope and no one saw his team once they got up the slope from down in the op because they were over the back of it, and that when he got up the slope that's when he saw the aircraft or whatever. But it still doesn't make any sense because the whole purpose of this mission is to bring in supplies every twenty minutes and unload them and give them out to people. So why are you going to like other alternate positions and like reducing our manpower, you know, the manpower that we have to unload stuff and pass it out to do a three hundred meters away security op that you can't even see the you know, you can't even see the landing zone from where you are because the jungle is so thick, interesting, and it's supposedly over hill, like it just tactically doesn't really make any sense, right.

56:21 Speaker 2: And also, you know what was interesting is like, you know, he claims that Nathan wasn't with him, despite that that picture Nathan took of him and Booth on the helicopter, you know, so he's he's already trying to claim that Nathan wasn't there and involved. And obviously, I guarantee if you ask him about me, he's going to say I wasn't there involved.

56:49 Speaker 1: So but you I can see that you were there. I can see that you were with it. When did you meet Michael?

57:00 Speaker 2: Oh did you know him?

57:02 Speaker 1: Did you know him before you touched down there?

57:06 Speaker 2: Like? Yeah, actually, to a degree, me and Michael were somewhat friends. Okay, I would actually considered him my friend because the two of us are kind of gym rats. So I would see him lifting weights after work pretty much every day. Ok you know, there was a bunch of times that me and him worked out together, you know, like because at the time we were both lowman on the totem pole. Right. So, like the way deployments work in the Marines, right is usually have a spin up time of six months. You deploy for six months to a year, and then you come back and you do some training, and then you go on a deployment and you have the cycle of like going out and coming back and going out and coming back.

58:01 Speaker 2: Right. So during all that whole workup, right, if you're new to the unit, you're like kind of the lowest man on the totem pole. You got to do all of the grunt work, the cleaning whatnot. So me and Herrera both being low on the totem pole, you know, me and him moved boxes and clean shit together all the time. Right. Yeah, The reason he was low man on the totem pole despite being is that he went a wall. But that is he also got demoted again two weeks prior to going on this mission, which is something I could never understand.

58:41 Speaker 1: Again coming from a military family, the one thing you never do ever is you do not go a wall, no matter what. I know what he says, why he did it, and a part of me is like, fuck, I kind of understand, but there had to be another way. There had to be another way. Right right, like that was one thing, you know, like, okay, just being frank here. I just want to be frank, because again I am neutral. I I something some part of me. Damn it, the camera's dead. There's a picture over here. It says, I want to believe there's that part of me that hears Michael's story and I hear someone who's scared, maybe a little like not taken seriously.

59:43 Speaker 1: And for all those reasons, I think like I want it. Maybe I want to believe more than there is some logical inconsistency to the story. I again, I'll be frank about it. I I'm neutral. I heard him out. I have to hear you out as well. Right, is the way.

1:00:06 Speaker 2: I see it.

1:00:10 Speaker 1: For all the reasons that I that I want to trust him, there's just as many things that make me like, wait, you went a wall, Wait you did this? Wait what so again? It does so at least meet with those that room for at least a conversation with you, And I know what you're saying is essentially that nothing crazy like that happened. There was no UFO, there was no ar V like and that what that does for me is that takes this whole story and it turns it into just a relief like Katrina style, like maybe a UFO was there and maybe maybe that that didn't happen, but it didn't happen like this, right.

1:01:05 Speaker 1: That's what you're essentially saying, is nothing like that happened, and for us in the UFO community, what that does and why people will never really hear you out. I'm telling you right now what the real story is behind people's discontent to hear you is because they don't want to because it takes one of those cinder blocks that they've built this narrative with. It takes one of them out, and they're afraid that the rest of the house is gonna come cumbling down, You see what I'm saying.

1:01:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean I definitely got that by reading some of the comments on Joey's video. The first one he hasn't dropped, the second one. We actually did kind of two interviews each one where like an hour and a half long. But yeah, you.

1:02:03 Speaker 1: Know, that's what you're up against, is you're.

1:02:05 Speaker 2: Up again send me comments saying I'm intel, I don't know how I was ever. You know, let's address it. All sorts of stuff.

1:02:14 Speaker 1: Are you and let me ask. I guess I should have asked this up front. Are you because I I mean, if you are, you'll have to lie to me anyway. So if you lie to me, you know that's on you.

1:02:28 Speaker 2: You take that to the grave.

1:02:31 Speaker 1: You can't, you know, at the end of the day. And this is what I say to everybody that talks that I talk with. You could be lying to me.

1:02:39 Speaker 2: At the end of the day.

1:02:40 Speaker 1: You have to look yourself in the mirror.

1:02:43 Speaker 2: So that's that is it.

1:02:45 Speaker 1: So I'm not here to judge. I'm here to facilitate. Right. Are you working for the US government to smear Michael Herrera's name and story?

1:02:57 Speaker 2: No?

1:02:58 Speaker 1: Are you, or have you ever been an intelligence asset?

1:03:04 Speaker 2: Now are you?

1:03:08 Speaker 1: Are you still working for or in any shape, way or form for the US military or any contracting agency that works in tandem.

1:03:21 Speaker 2: No, I'm completely currently I'm just retired, okay, and volunteer as the head of security at my local church. Okay, Well, it's your operations I run now.

1:03:33 Speaker 1: Yeah, the only operations at the pews.

1:03:37 Speaker 2: Maybe pretty much. I love it. I love it. Are you a man of faith?

1:03:43 Speaker 1: I am?

1:03:43 Speaker 2: Yeah?

1:03:45 Speaker 1: So you believe in God, angels, and demons?

1:03:52 Speaker 2: So, yeah, do you live in a world where.

1:03:58 Speaker 1: You would accept the idea of an alien non human intelligence existing?

1:04:05 Speaker 2: I do. I mean you could say no, I'm not opposed to it. And by no means am I trying to have my testimony like destroy the idea UFOs or anything like. That's not my intent. My intent has always been to set the record straight about this operation, you know. And the reason why is because there's so many few there's already so few people on that operation, and so many of them are gone now, some of them passed away, and I feel like I'm one of the only people still around who even knows this story and can shed light on it.

1:04:54 Speaker 1: Well, is there any way that this operation happened and under your nose that you were not read in?

1:05:03 Speaker 2: That you.

1:05:05 Speaker 1: That that you just didn't need to know?

1:05:09 Speaker 2: And I don't think so, because the thing is like if he was ambushed out in the jungle, he wouldn't have been read into that mission, right, because you know what I mean? Like, so, I don't think anybody was read in unless like there's some shadowy forces that are like wait until the Marines get over the hill and then wipe them out or something like, you know, it could there be.

1:05:34 Speaker 1: In any circumstance. Could there have been a situation where Michael's team goes out in the sixth by the group and you're not informed because you don't need to know. He's not read into anything. He he stumbles into it and he gets attacked by these guys because they you know, they're they're they're encroaching on this like extremely extremely unconstitutional act that they're using the cover of a natural disaster to abduct human beings or whatever. They're using some sort of anti gravity propulsion system, something that defies all logic.

1:06:21 Speaker 1: It's three hundred feet, it's the size of a goddamn small building, and it's vanta blacks and it's undula. It's oscillating, slowly rotating. Is there any way that you think that this could have happened without your knowledge?

1:06:39 Speaker 4: No?

1:06:40 Speaker 2: Absolutely not. I mean it, and we can break it down more. But just the tactics he describes, the way he describes the conditions he describes, all of those are not the conditions. All of those were not the tactics that we use. None of how he lays out the terrain is how it was. Plus me and my team were in the air twenty four to seven, and he describes this three hundred foot craft taking off. So unless I need to get my eyes checked, or did need to get my eyes checked? And getting older now, but

1:07:18 Speaker 2: you know you don't just miss a three hundred foot craft whoa taking off? Well, I'll argue that.

1:07:27 Speaker 1: When I will argue that, I think if like I have seen, I can I would swear on anything on a Bible whatever I've seen a disc like broad daylight fucking tree, top level brother like, And I grew up next to an air force base during you know when this happened. Was it was? It was like shortly after nine to eleven, right, so, and I come from a military family. I just I knew what flew and what didn't.

1:08:01 Speaker 2: I I saw it with your own eyes, Like, yeah, you see it through a radar. You saw it with your own eyes, right, I mean?

1:08:08 Speaker 1: So, so my point my point being, uh, unless no one from my neighborhood ever spoke up, I was the only person who saw that craft that day. As far as I know, I know what I saw. I know I'm telling the truth. I know whatever happens when I die and I go to meet the maker, I will be able to say, I know what the fuck I saw.

1:08:36 Speaker 2: I don't care.

1:08:37 Speaker 1: I don't need validation from anybody. I know what I saw, right, I don't need the the Herrera that like. I don't need the if it is a lie, if your story is a lie, I like for me, I know, I know that something fucking crazy is out there. It's whether or not people are taking advantage of that and co opting this community into these crazy fucking stories that sound legit and then are corroborated by other people because Jake Barber corroborates it, essentially, and this guy says he's a Tier one operator, special special operator.

1:09:20 Speaker 1: So do you know any of the guys that were with Michael that day?

1:09:26 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I know all of them, and I've talked to a bunch of them, Like I mentioned, I've talked to Booth recently. You know, there was Mendez, Nathan Labraham.

1:09:41 Speaker 1: So these are guys that were allegedly with Michael. Put to their knees, guns, used the straps on their guns, used to tie them up.

1:09:50 Speaker 2: Essentially, none of them say that happened.

1:09:54 Speaker 1: But these are the guys that are allegedly there with him.

1:09:58 Speaker 2: These are the people that be on his stick. So okay, the way he described like the what I can tell you for sure is that there's six people on that stick, and he claims that six people walked out into the jungle. Now, tactically that doesn't make any sense, but let's just believe it's true. So everybody who was on his stick, which would include Patrick Booth, would have had to walk into the jungle and get taken down. And none of those people, Nathan Labram, Patrick Booth, none of them claim that any of that ever happened.

1:10:35 Speaker 2: All of them have said the same thing to me and anybody else that they sat around drinking coconuts and passing out supplies and nothing like.

1:10:46 Speaker 1: They were never ambushed.

1:10:49 Speaker 2: They were never ambushed. And you know, he'll say, oh yeah, they signed all these nbas and couldn't say anything. I was just how reliable are humans? I mean, these are people that I lived with for years after this point. These are people that I got blackout drunk with. I I was sitting in dirt holes with. You're telling me none of these people had perfect codes of silence. None of these people got a little bit too drunk and might have mentioned something would have happened. It doesn't make any sense.

1:11:22 Speaker 2: There wasn't make any sense.

1:11:24 Speaker 1: I think that if and maybe you can do this for me, maybe we can get this, maybe we can do something.

1:11:35 Speaker 2: Would one of them talk to me? I mean, why I can put you in touch with them. But all I'm saying is like the vibe that I got by reaching out to these guys, and I can, you know, on the back end, send you the screenshots of my messages with these people. I'm not trying to secure anything offense.

1:12:00 Speaker 1: I would love I would need to hear now no now here, if they're maybe let them watch this. Here's my market one one hour or twelve minutes in. This is my plea to you guys. I know you don't want to be dragged into this. It is a currently currently there is a stigma attached to the idea of these events. But if you are bringing, if your name is out there as being associated with this event, do you not at least owe it so one time, come and say to me, who's interviewed Michael to you know, who's watched this the whole way, who's seen it the whole way, who's followed it the whll way.

1:12:55 Speaker 1: Give us some sort of closure on that. Tell us yours because right now, Tim, I again, I think I'm loving this. I like the fact that there is that we're trying to get to the bottom of whether this really happened, right because this has been one of the larger stories of the past few years. It's been referenced on Joe Rogan, It's been referenced on American Alchemy, It's been referenced UAP, big, big, big channels.

1:13:29 Speaker 2: So it's in the ether.

1:13:32 Speaker 1: Doctor Greer talks about it constantly. It is a brick in the modern UAP narrative at this point, and then Jake Barber reinforces it by saying he was one of the guys that was doing the takedowns, Like that's what his job would have been. He would have been in the helicopter, flying the helicopter for retrievals. But he knows those guys in the black All Black who ambushed that group of Marines. So you got two guys saying that this thing happened, and it would have happened, or it could have happened, and then these other guys don't want to come out and at least tell us, hey, guys, you know, the other stuff might be true, but this story isn't my name was used in it.

1:14:24 Speaker 2: That's not necessarily true. I mean, Nathan did come out. I'm not the only person that's come out. Nathan was the original person that came out, and nobody wanted to believe him. So well, no, he was on Vetted and yeah, he was on Vetted, and I think he did another interview. But Nathan Labram, his team leader, Uh, you know, a guy I know well, has came out and he also talked with Joey. But the he enabels them as disinformation agents. I get it. Well, so Nathan didn't have the steam to keep like pushing this.

1:15:10 Speaker 2: Essentially, he showed up, did an interview on Vetted, and did one another interview and then he just said, this is all ridiculous. I don't want to be involved with this, and like that was the sentiment of most of the people on this team. Everybody just laughs about this. They you know, they're like, ah, this is kind of fake. I can't believe he's saying this or whatever, blah blah blah, you know, and they're just going about their lives. I mean, these guys are family people. They're like most none of them are in the Marines anymore, you know, like they they're running businesses and stuff.

1:15:44 Speaker 2: They don't they think it's a joke and they don't care, right, So, like that's why I had mentioned I don't know if any of them would want to talk to you, because nobody seems to really care about this at all. And but me, you know, well, as I mentioned, I'm retired, and I got plenty of time and I was there, So that's why I decided to throw my hat in the ring. Plus, I feel like it's the thing to do as a man of integrity to try to tell the truth, you know, a man of faith, like a man of God. Yeah, I'm just trying to tell the truth.

1:16:18 Speaker 2: Plus, you know, the thing is like two degree. This feels a lot like stolen valor to me, Like, yeah, usually stolen valor is like, hey, I did a bunch of combat deployments and I'm a Navy seal or something, when really you were a cook. But I mean two degree that's what this is. I mean, I don't know why he has to embellish this. This was a great operation. We helped a lot of people.

1:16:43 Speaker 2: I don't really understand the motivation for him to do this, but you know, Herrera was always kind of a weird dude, kind of an outcast type. I was one myself, That's why we got along. But well, I don't know if I was an outcast. It was more of the quiet guy that read books instead of partying, you know, like that's just kind my personality.

1:17:01 Speaker 1: But I hear you, I really do, and I don't mean to, like, you know, put you against the fire. But it's not something I wouldn't do to anybody, right

1:17:17 Speaker 1: I I think it's brave what you're doing, especially when what you're sacked up against is a community that doesn't like to be wrong because they think that if one of their stories that they've you know, put their name on, is wrong, then they lose all their credibility. And I think it should be the opposite. In this cutting edge, like talking about the phenomenon you know, plural like UFOs, like consciousness, what happens after we die. We have to be humble when we are wrong, and we have to admit it.

1:18:04 Speaker 2: Right.

1:18:05 Speaker 1: So that is why I'm here, That's why I'm listening to you, because I understand the fact about being on the right side, right about about putting my mouth, putting my ass, you know, in that in that seat to cash that check, right, Because I could talk a big game and say yeah, I'm a neutral guy. I stay neutral and then just just talk to experiences and not the people who say, hey guy, this may this this problem.

1:18:38 Speaker 2: This didn't happen.

1:18:39 Speaker 1: I was there too. So that's why I want to have this conversation with you, because I owe it to like integrity to do so.

1:18:49 Speaker 2: And Lea, I mean, You've been genuine and upfront and just a total pleasure to talk to, you know, this whole time. So you know, I'm, as I've told you before, I'm genuinely grateful that you're willing to like have me on your podcast to talk about this because you know, when I first started out on this journey about a year ago, when I learned about this, like nobody really wanted to listen to me. You know, I sent messages to all sorts of people, all sorts of shows, their emails, all sorts of stuff.

1:19:23 Speaker 2: I pretty much resorted to having a couple of drinks and like popping comments on people's video like videos, you know, other kind of I had kind of no other avenue. So truly I am grateful.

1:19:41 Speaker 1: Well, okay, now let's get back to some of these details, sure.

1:19:50 Speaker 2: The way that they are.

1:19:53 Speaker 1: What are some more of the inconsistencies in that you that you're you're that you'd like to highlight in Because there's also this this this camera and phone thing where he said that all of their all of their phones and pictures were like suddenly gone, and that he had a camera and the SD card was was missing from it. What did you guys have cameras? Is that a plausible thing?

1:20:27 Speaker 2: So so you could have obviously those pictures that I sent you, I took those pictures, right, I mean, I had a camera myself. But so I don't know if you know this info. We haven't really talked about it, but it's in the second part of the video that I did with Joey. Let's go exclusive. If he's not there, there's no way his story about the camera is true because I was there, right, so he claims, so fast forward through the operation. His story is that he flew back on the helo. The minute he got there, there was an admiral on the ship, and this admiral like secretly arrived and which admirals never secretly arrived, asking the navy guy like.

1:21:18 Speaker 3: You know.

1:21:19 Speaker 2: So he claims that this admiral showed up and then like bullied him and the guys into signing some sort of NBA or like told them they'll be killed if they don't uh sign this or that or whatever. But his like ace in the hole is that he took pictures of this craft on his camera. That's what he claimed in the Sean Ryan Show that when they went up the hill, he took out his camera, took among pictures of this and then that was gonna be his like safety net, which doesn't even make sense. That these guys are special forces.

1:21:53 Speaker 2: Why didn't they just take his camera and break it? Like why would they? Yeah, Like, these guys are special horses, they're the best of the best, but they don't know how to pat somebody down for a camera like that doesn't make sense to me anyway somehow. Yeah, yeah, that's what he claims. That he put in his drop pouch, which that's one of the first things you search on an armed like combatant like that. But he put in his drop pouch and they didn't search him, right, so he was able to sneak off with the camera after they let him go or whatever, and then he claims that the camera was his backup.

1:22:25 Speaker 2: He signed this NBA because he was forced into it, was gonna lose his career or something if he didn't. And then he snuck down into our birthing where we were all living and like got the camera out and made sure that the pictures were there. And then the ship went into port in Subic Bay, which that's true. So we left Indonesia when the operation was done, we sailed back to the Philippines. Subic Bay is a port that we use in the US Navy. And then we had the weekend off. Essentially it was like three days, but we essentially had the weekend off in the Philippines to go party and you know, to go explore, right, because like that was our time off, our liberty time as it's called.

1:23:11 Speaker 2: So we pulled in on the ship that night and then we got liberty that night and then for two days afterwards. Right. But the thing is when you go on liberty, one person has to stay at all times on what's called a fire watch and watch your birthing to make sure nobody breaks in and steals anything, essentially, right, So the birthings that we were in, right, there's only one door in. It's kind of like a heavy door that you got to kind of like do the twist thing and push it out right, and that would go into where essentially there was bunk beds like two three I think it's three bunk beds coffin racks is what we called them.

1:23:55 Speaker 2: And you would sleep like, you know, three to a man or whatever. Right, And so everybody had their stuff in the birthing, so while everybody was off the ship, you would make sure that you'd have a fire watch to watch everything in the birthing. So like nobody who was on the ship could just go steal people's stuff, right, Nobody likes a thief. So he claims that during that first night off, he went out with the rest of the team and while he was out drinking or whatever, he came back and he had found his camera on his rack.

1:24:30 Speaker 2: The SD card was missing, the camera had been hit by like an emp or something, and it was just sitting waiting for him, and his wallocker was unlocked.

1:24:40 Speaker 1: Almost like a message, like it was like a message to him like we know what you had, and we like don't don't pursue this.

1:24:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what he was going with. That's what he claims, Yeah, so where all of that is impossible. I was the very first fire watch that night, so I took the very first shift and didn't go out that night to party or anything. I literally stayed in because the way those firewatch shift works is like once you work one, you're done. So like my plan was like, hey, I'm gonna take the first one, bite the bullet. I'm not gonna go party the first night, and then I'll have the other two days off. So I was the firewatch indisputably.

1:25:31 Speaker 2: I was the firewatch there. And I remember the guys on my team, David Johnson, James Williams, who were there. I can actually name them. He hasn't named anybody that was there. They actually brought me what's called blue cab or like blue taxi pizza from like a local pizza spot. They brought me a pizza because I had nothing to eat that night, and like I remember that in vivid detail of them coming back in for the night and bringing me that pizza. But what I'm saying is like I was there and nobody entered, nobody exited, no wall loockers were open, you know, unless they hit me with like the men in black like neuralizer bro.

1:26:13 Speaker 2: Like, it's impossible that anybody was in that birthing and there was nothing was unsecured, because if it is, if it is unsecured, like if I had walked back and saw his his like locker open, his locker open, I one would have secured it and two wrote it down in the book. Done your job, Yeah job, okay. Plus, if there was Randoms that I didn't recognize, like somebody from not from our platoon, I don't even think I would let them.

1:26:43 Speaker 1: In, right yeah, right right, this is your like quarters.

1:26:49 Speaker 2: You don't need to be in here, or I would have followed them around, like because people are gonna say, well, if it was a general, you would have let them in. You were just you know, a low level Like sure, if it was a general, I'm gonna let him in, right, but I'm not gonna not watch what he's doing, like because at that point I'd be like, why is there a general here?

1:27:10 Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

1:27:11 Speaker 2: Like I would just it's just impossible. Yeah, it's just impossible that this whole scenario went down with the camera and everything. So either he's sitting on these pictures or he never had him in the first place. That's a clip.

1:27:30 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, are we sure that it was that same day that you were on watch that this happened?

1:27:39 Speaker 2: Well, no, his own words, his own testimony is that he describes it as we got back. This was I think on the Sean Ryan Show. Let me roll up in my notes because I have the minute. Yeah that all the Uh, well no, I don't have it. What do you mean miss?

1:27:59 Speaker 1: And you have the time stamps of the video, right.

1:28:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what the the fifty one fifty three, fifty three twenty eight is.

1:28:08 Speaker 1: Okay, you know what, I'm gonna do something I usually wouldn't do. Let me get it pulled up because I don't want to get copyrighted too hard by using too much of this episode. Oh god, it's in my ears now, all right?

1:28:30 Speaker 2: Duty you know?

1:28:31 Speaker 7: Uh?

1:28:32 Speaker 2: What what what?

1:28:33 Speaker 1: What's the first time mark you want me to go to?

1:28:36 Speaker 2: So? Uh for this specific situation, it starts at one oh seven forty eight. He says he shows up at Subic Bay with this camera for three days to leave, which is true, as I just said. And then at one o eight oh nine he says, the first day we were in Subic, he went out, came back and his camera was taken, and then I put this is the most refutable. I was the first fire watch that night. One O seven. You said, uh yeah, one o seven and forty eight seconds.

1:29:06 Speaker 1: All right, I got that and ads playing. But I will bring that up and we will Sean Sean Ryan. Please don't, please.

1:29:18 Speaker 2: Don't don't. Don't.

1:29:20 Speaker 1: Don't do me dirty. Yeah, don't do me dirty. This is for educational purposes only. Copyright disclaimer. I'm using it in a fair use mannerism. So I'm gonna pull up and I would like you to go through it with us,

1:29:42 Speaker 1: exactly with what you what you can say in regards to his actual words. I think this will be good. So let's listen to Michael.

1:29:57 Speaker 6: Right.

1:29:58 Speaker 9: So it's just very out of place. So we went to after we concluded this operation. We ended up docking a stupid bay for some liberty at least like four days. So the people that we encountered in that event didn't even bother the camera or anything. It was in my dumbpouch, but it was small enough, so I don't know why they wouldn't have searched it, but they missed it. Right, So here I am the whole time thinking like, fucking A, I've got something. I'm not fucking crazy, and neither of us are crazy, like we've got something.

1:30:26 Speaker 9: Actually backs up if we were to tell anybody about this and we could show them pictures of it off of a camera and not something like a computer screen where they can doctor it, well, I spoke too soon because when we end up going out that that first day, we came back to report back to the ship, and I saw my camera on my rack and the memory card was out of it, and it was a big memory card and the battery was out of it, and I just see the camera sitting like what the fuck?

1:30:52 Speaker 6: So I checked my locker. It was secure because that's where.

1:30:54 Speaker 9: I had it, and I had some stuff on top of the camera in there, you know, in my locker that were on top of the camera, and had another battery in there. So I took that battery and I put it in there, and they wuldn't even turn the fuck on. And I had some people reach out to me that said, you know, if you had that camera still to this day, that they could do some data retrieval and may be able to pick it up. I'm like, but I don't have that camera. You know, I tossed it because the fact that I wouldn't even turn on, wouldn't do anything.

1:31:17 Speaker 6: Like fuck, it's just a paperweight.

1:31:19 Speaker 9: And then and of course two thousand and nine, you're not thinking of anything with forensics to know where they could do something. There was people actually willing to do that, which is great. So somewhere out there, somebody's got this footage. Somebody's got that tape because there's some reason why they took it. And fun fact is that the other five Marines that were with me, they had their phone's taken.

1:31:38 Speaker 8: Did you look at the pictures before? Did you have a chance.

1:31:42 Speaker 9: I know I took pictures and videos of because I saw the record thing and I actually can snap the photos and you can see like a blink.

1:31:49 Speaker 6: But I knew for a.

1:31:50 Speaker 8: Fact, But you didn't go back and review them. Okay, no, no, why not?

1:31:56 Speaker 6: Why I didn't see it when anybody's seen Okay.

1:32:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's flaky. If I had undeniable fucking evidence that I had a a UFO for all intensive purposes lack of a better term, if you will, I would look. There's nothing that would stop me.

1:32:19 Speaker 2: From looking at this picture that I took.

1:32:21 Speaker 1: Especially if I was disarmed by an elite kill squad and they missed the fucking camera of all things to miss, I would be like, you fucking idiots, you let me get away with this camera.

1:32:42 Speaker 2: You're fucked, You're cooked.

1:32:44 Speaker 1: If I'm not gonna burn this jungle down, I'm gonna burn your operation down, right.

1:32:49 Speaker 2: Yeah. Why wouldn't he take it out with him, or why wouldn't he come to the fire watch and be like, hey, you know about somebody stealing my camera? Can you watch my shit for me? That's like, hey, Tim, can you put this in your pocket while I go out and drink, Like it's my camera. I don't want it to be fucked up? Or hey, hold this SD card or that fit with the s D card in his pocket or whatever. I mean, I had the same kind of camera as him. He's old, like two thousand and nine, but kind of the first digital cameras look like this.

1:33:20 Speaker 1: Look at this picture, though, if I'm assuming you took this picture with a similar style.

1:33:24 Speaker 2: No, I'm I'm in that picture. Somebody was using my camera, so I'm I'm the guy on the left.

1:33:30 Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm assuming this is the quality of the camera that.

1:33:35 Speaker 2: You were using, and he was yes, so that that was actually taking about three four months before Indonesia during our training workup.

1:33:44 Speaker 1: So it's a good one for reference here. Actually, this one is good for reference too.

1:33:50 Speaker 2: Look in the sky.

1:33:53 Speaker 1: If a three hundred foot craft was there instead of that helicopter and it was even you know what, let's push it back to the tree line. Even here the mountains in the background. If a three hundred foot craft was sitting above that mountain and we were we had a camera like this, the detail would be undeniable, undeniable.

1:34:20 Speaker 2: Even back then.

1:34:21 Speaker 1: This these aren't the best pictures, but if there's a three hundred foot craft and he knows he shot it, he would have undeniable proof. The you can look out clearly, you can see the mountains in the in the background, in the foreground, you see all the detail. Like these cameras in two thousand and nine weren't the best, but they weren't shitty. They weren't shitty. No, again, a three hundred three hundred foot craft place it as far to the horizon as you can in this picture, and you would still see a pretty decent size probably you know, similar to maybe the guy in the background that's walking the size of his head.

1:35:05 Speaker 1: There would be a black craft in the background about the size of his head, and in the back in the back. So these cameras are able to show foreground background detail. This is my specialty. If he had photos of being that close to a three hundred foot craft, it some of the time it might not even fit in frame, so he would have a clear clear view.

1:35:32 Speaker 2: How big you think this ship is huge?

1:35:40 Speaker 1: Specifically how many feet were rough ast nd nd.

1:35:48 Speaker 2: It's three times people on that ship, so you know what I mean, Like put into.

1:35:53 Speaker 1: Perspective, it's it's three times the size of that ship that is pretty far away in this picture, right, it's pretty far away. It's not close, like it's close, but it's not close close. So again, move that ship back and it's three times the size of that You could move that back almost halfway to the horizon and you would still be picking up pretty good detail.

1:36:18 Speaker 2: So again I just want to go and say that.

1:36:21 Speaker 1: These cameras are able to produce a pretty good picture even under duress. You know, if he's videotaping it, he would have some pretty smoking gun footage so that you know, again that would be the reason for me to believe that's why they came and got this camera. Right, But what you're saying is it logically couldn't have happened.

1:36:45 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean it's not logical for so many reasons. One, how do they know? How do they know about this camera? If they never found it on him? He said in that clip it was too small and it was hitting or what ever, and they didn't find it, So how did they know about it? How did they know to send anybody about it?

1:37:05 Speaker 8: Shit?

1:37:08 Speaker 2: And then even if they did know, say they're like mystical creatures and omniscient and knew about it, how did they get past me? How did they unlock his thing? How?

1:37:19 Speaker 4: Like?

1:37:19 Speaker 2: How did they know when he was going out? Specifically, how did they know they weren't going to open the door and find him sitting on firewatch right? And then he would fight? Why didn't he take it with him? Why didn't he take the SD card? Why didn't he separate the two? Why didn't he put it?

1:37:35 Speaker 4: Like?

1:37:35 Speaker 2: Why didn't I had a camera? As you saw, I took a picture of him that that picture of him I took. So it's like, why didn't he say, hey, Tim can we swap SD cards.

1:37:47 Speaker 1: Honestly and and going back to your training. I know you guys aren't intelligence, but would you be smart enough to pull like say, say this operation happened to you you, let's flip this. Say you're Michael and and you have this SD card. You barely escaped with your life, but you have smoking gun evidence of it, and everyone around you is suppressing it, suppressing the story. They don't want anybody to know. Would you leave it in the barracks that night or what would tactally? Tactfully, would you hand it off to someone you trust, say, put it in your card, you know, don't ask questions, put it in your camera, put your camera away, right you know you were not there, Like this is what you've got to be thinking.

1:38:46 Speaker 2: The level of trust and brotherhood we have. If he had came to me and said, hey, take this card and like swap me as D cards and don't ask any questions, I would have done it for him. I would have said, Roger that like I got you, bro, Like you know, there were so many other avenues he could have done other than hey, I hid this in my storage locker plus deep so I don't even know how he layered it underneath there, like our storage lockers are actually our bed like they flip up, like your bed flips up, and you have like a tiny shallow locker to put stuff.

1:39:24 Speaker 2: But I mean there there's so many other avenues and like Herrera like tape, like you know, like a locker room. No, because these are just temporary. These are just temporary birthings. It's not like this is his, like this is the rack that he stayed in. But like as Marines, we're just visitors on the ship. We're pretty much this cargo.

1:39:47 Speaker 3: You know.

1:39:48 Speaker 2: That's why the you know, the Navy guys always say marine stands for my ass rides and Navy equipment. Yeah, you know, because like so it's not like it's labeled Herrera perfectly. That's the other thing. This guy would have to know which was his rack or anybody else.

1:40:04 Speaker 1: That's where I'm getting That's where I'm going with this is if it wasn't clearly defined which rack was his, they would have to have an intimate knowledge of your temporary assignment, like like layout, they would have to have They would have to be able to get past you unnoticed. A general would have to get past you unnoticed. Know the layout of a temporary you know, like like temporary barrack situation where nothing is defined, like you know, it was just kind of like put your stuff here and this is where you are, you know, let's get out there.

1:40:46 Speaker 1: For someone visiting, that's a lot of foreknowledge of something that that that happened pretty quickly was was turned on. So again, I I see what you're saying. Uh, that's not this say. I don't think it's implausible, but I do think if they didn't know where he was, where his where his quarters were, maybe more lockers would have been open, maybe all of them would have been open, because they would have searched the whole fucking place. If and and the other guy's phones is that ever? Did anyone ever talk to you about, hey, am, my phone's missing.

1:41:26 Speaker 4: No.

1:41:27 Speaker 2: And the other thing is most guys didn't have phones. I didn't bring my phone. That's why I had my camera in the first place. Because the thing is I had no service over there. It was either you pay like five hundred bucks a month for glows serving.

1:41:41 Speaker 1: Back in roaming times.

1:41:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, it.

1:41:46 Speaker 1: Would cost a fuck ton of money to be a.

1:41:50 Speaker 2: Lance corporal making a thousand bucks a month or some ship, Like I'm not fucking I had a phone and I turned it off. Actually this funny story. I asked my grandma to call Sprints as I was like flying out to go on this deployment, and she didn't call Sprint. So then I didn't pay my bill for like four months. And I still to this day have a bill from Sprint, like now T Mobile or whatever that I own five hundred dollars. Like they try to claim that I owe them because I never shut off my phone or whatever, but I didn't realize they wasn't shut off because when I got to Okinawa, I just put it in, you know, in my actual like birthing or whatever.

1:42:36 Speaker 2: Rights. Like we actually had living quarters back in Okinawa on Campanson, Yeah, like our home base for the deployment, but we didn't have assigned quarters or anything when we were on the ship. But what I'm saying is like I didn't have my phone. Most of the guys I knew didn't have their phones. Hell at that time, I didn't even have a smartphone. I had like ahes Uh. I didn't have the flip phone. I had the crappy like Nokio one that was like a just like a little brick.

1:43:07 Speaker 1: I don't know, like oh yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah, uh oh yeah, oh yeah your brick time. So these didn't even take photos.

1:43:18 Speaker 2: I mean, like the I think the like really fancy BlackBerry ones did But I mean this was like.

1:43:25 Speaker 1: What year did smartphones start having cameras?

1:43:34 Speaker 2: The first camera phone was was?

1:43:36 Speaker 1: Oh what the first camera phone was released in nineteen ninety nine, But by the beginning of twenty ten, almost all smartphones had integrated digital cameras. But that's a year after yeah, deployment, so few cameras, had few phones cameras in two thousand and nine, is what.

1:44:01 Speaker 2: But I mean even if they did have cameras, they had no service for sure, nobody, but you can use you can still use the camera. You see what I'm saying. Sure, I mean, I'm not trying to say you could. Nobody took pictures on their camera. I don't. Nobody had. Well, when I've been talking to them, nobody has mentioned that my phone, miss oh nobody. If somebody was missing a phone, they would have told the firewatch, Hey, where the hell is my phone.

1:44:31 Speaker 1: You would have had people come up to you, and that would have been odd, right, You would have had five, five separate people come up to you and say, hey, my phone's missing, and then one guy saying, hey my camera's missing, and you know it was left out on my bed and like this.

1:44:51 Speaker 2: I mean, they probably would have like charged me for negligence if I missed nine people or five people's phones and cameras going missing.

1:45:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably didn't do your You didn't earn that pizza. If that's the case, you did not earn that so okay, okay, And.

1:45:12 Speaker 2: Just so everybody knows too, there's no back door into these birthings. They're a single like separated, like modular room with one door, so it's not like they like snuck in the back or came in through the roof. I mean we're in the bowel of the ship too, so it's not like they snuck through a vent or something. And I was just watching a movie and didn't see it, Like, oh, it's impossible.

1:45:40 Speaker 1: There's a comment that you just can't wherever it isn't the only whistleblower to encounter American black commandos using exotic propulsion. I want to address this, m But that's why it makes the story somewhat believable, because we've heard.

1:46:01 Speaker 2: About stuff like this before.

1:46:06 Speaker 1: It wasn't until doctor Greer's National Press Club event in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four where the public first heard about the story. We don't really know how long Michael had to formulate this or to think upon it right. If it is true, he had a lot of time to get those details right, but he also had a lot of time to forget certain details. Not that this is something that you'd forget, but what I'm saying is he also had a lot of time but between two thousand and nine in twenty twenty to kind of read up on cases that have happened.

1:46:54 Speaker 2: So we have to in order to be.

1:46:59 Speaker 1: Journalistic integral and have integrity journalistically, we need to understand that there's a huge gap of time. Horrera is a smart guy. He's a smart guy. He's a business man now, Yeah, and he loves his Rolexes. Isn't his fancy cars?

1:47:22 Speaker 2: Guys? We have to think about that. We have this whistle blow by the way, Like I'm interested.

1:47:31 Speaker 1: Well, you get you'll get speaker fees, and you'll get on the podcast circuit and you'll get you might not get monetarily famous, but then you know, in the business world, like.

1:47:45 Speaker 2: You can turn it.

1:47:46 Speaker 1: Into something like the current whistleblowers are all kind of like like the quote unquote real ones, like the Matthew Browns, the Dylan Borlan's, Like they're actually all talking about how it is to find a job now that they've come forward. Right, that's real world implication. Michael right now is doing better than he ever has. He's got rolexes, he's got nice cars.

1:48:13 Speaker 2: He sends me.

1:48:14 Speaker 1: He when I was interviewing him, he's sending me pictures of all this stuff and how and he was using that as why would I come forward with this story knowing all I have to lose? But you just got all this. So again I'm not again staying neutral. Backing up, I need to understand that there's a lot of time for Michael to kind of catch up, catch himself up. And now I'm seeing what you're saying about stolen valor because to create this story out of thin air and then tell it as as an as like a someone who's a service member at the time, like that's an act of war on our country, by our own country.

1:49:02 Speaker 1: It sounds like to do something like that to a group of Marines, that's that's treason at the.

1:49:11 Speaker 2: So many there's just so many ways that it's just totally impossible, like tactically, like how many men did happen like that? Well it changed in the news. Let me roll up.

1:49:29 Speaker 1: Is there any other clip from Sean that we want to pull up?

1:49:33 Speaker 2: Oh?

1:49:33 Speaker 3: Uh?

1:49:34 Speaker 2: Let me.

1:49:38 Speaker 1: Because again, like what I mean, what is he saying that these this group is what?

1:49:43 Speaker 2: What are they?

1:49:44 Speaker 1: What are they? Are?

1:49:45 Speaker 2: They?

1:49:46 Speaker 1: Are they American? Are they are they contractors? I think that's what we've all come to think, is that it was some sort of like you.

1:49:55 Speaker 2: Know, yeah change so twenty seven to and the Sean Ryan I labeled this Originally he said that there was eight men that took him down, two on each marine and then three searching. It's my house burning down.

1:50:14 Speaker 8: She's gonna say heart attack.

1:50:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. I heard a siren and was.

1:50:23 Speaker 1: Like I don't I don't have no ads on YouTube, so I have to wait. I have to wait for the ad to play to bring it up on screen.

1:50:33 Speaker 2: But that's hilarious.

1:50:34 Speaker 1: You can hear that.

1:50:34 Speaker 2: You're like, oh ship is my fucking I was burned down? Well no, earlier, my my friend he was coming by to pick up like a couch or something, and like was knocking on the door, and that's why I was like looking or whatever. I was trying to tell him, like, hey man, I'm on this podcast. I can't just like leave, you know. Yeah, well if you need to know, we can. It's all good. But yeah, he said that there was eight. But then just like he says, there's two on each marine and three searching, so that would be fifteen.

1:51:05 Speaker 2: I mean that, So according to him, it's either eight or fifteen. And then I think he changed it in the News Max or the News Nation, the one that you were showing earlier. I think he said it was like twenty or something in that one. Uh well, this is yeah, that's I know. He says it's eight. It's eight again, So tell me this. WHI are in his story six marines loaded for bear surrendering to eight guys. I could, like, I feel like me and six of my guys could have taken eight dudes in a fight, probably get shot to shit at least a couple of people, but you would have put up a fight.

1:51:50 Speaker 2: I would have thought. There's it's easy to say that in.

1:51:56 Speaker 1: Like you know what I mean, Like, Okay, sure, I worked at a I worked at a dunkin Donuts when I was younger. Anyone on Actually they're nationwide now, right, dunkin Donuts? Yeah, yeah, that was like a New England. You know, that's always been a New England staple. So I worked at a dunkin Donuts when I was like sixteen seventeen.

1:52:19 Speaker 2: And I got robbed.

1:52:21 Speaker 1: I got robbed at gunpoint.

1:52:23 Speaker 2: Right.

1:52:24 Speaker 1: The dunkin Donuts was one of those ones. It was next to a mall, like it was. It wasn't connected to the mall, but it was next to a mall that was off on a major highway. So the Duncans was right next to the exit onto the highway or the entrance onto the highway, and the mall was right there. It's a very this is Christmas time, people get very desperate. This guy walks into the dunks, trench coat hat pulled down, looking like he was out.

1:52:55 Speaker 2: Of a fucking town like the movie The Town.

1:52:58 Speaker 1: And I remember saying to myself, I go, this guy looks like he's gonna fucking rob me, and then comes up to the counter. Long story short, he goes, I'll take a cup of whatever, I'll a donut. So I go to get everything right. And then I come back and he has a he's got one of these. He's not showing me the gun, right, but he says, I have a gun. Give me all the because he like added it to his order. It kind of sounds funny in retrospect, but he was like, yeah, give me a me. He literally took the fucking coffee too, I swear to God.

1:53:35 Speaker 2: But he's doing this like one of these under the shirt things. And I was the gun to.

1:53:42 Speaker 1: Ask, hey, show me the gun's real. But so he asked for all the money in the drawer and I literally laughed. I go haha, and he was like, no, I'm serious. And then that's when he like stuck the He like did that to me and I was like, oh shit, this is real. And he made me put my hands on the counter, opened the draw well, no, he made me open the drawer get all the money out. He didn't want to change originally. Then he wanted the quarters. So it was very confusing. It's a it's a you go into this like fight or flight mode, and I would admit that I I was in that fight mode, but I'm not fighting.

1:54:25 Speaker 1: I'm giving him what he wants, right, I'm I'm I'm engaging. I could have run and he would have just hopped the counter, But who knows what I would have been killed, So I'm just going along with that. That money's insured.

1:54:37 Speaker 2: I'm not. My life is not.

1:54:39 Speaker 1: So everyone I tell that story too, they go, I would have I would have fucking.

1:54:47 Speaker 2: Jumped the counter.

1:54:48 Speaker 1: I would have Okay, easy to fucking say that, dude, have a gut again, And when someone told me this, they go, I would have asked him. I would have tell show me the gun. Shut the fuck up. You're gonna say that, Shut the fuck up. You're gonna say I'm a sixteen year old kid, and so are you the kid who was telling me that he would have done it. I'm like, you would't have done shit just like I did. So again, it's easy to say I would have fought. I would have done this. I would have done that. But I want to hear your genuine if you were in that situation, would you have put a fight up?

1:55:30 Speaker 2: I would have fought, And are you serious to yes? But to qualify your thing, right, you're sixteen and you've likely not been in that many adverse scenarios before. A person on this team is a trained US Marine infantryman, not a US Marine cook. A US Marine infantryman. We are trained in hand to hand shooting, tactics, battle like our counter job in life is warfare with other units of people. That is literally our job. I mean, we're literally thrown into scenarios where you know, they try to breed that freezer flight out of you.

1:56:23 Speaker 2: That's the whole point of going to boot camp and infantry training and doing this stuff, six months of training before this deployment, of just running and shooting and doing all sorts of stuff so that when you're in that scenario and you can't think straight, you do what you're trained to do, which is to fight. So, I mean, it doesn't even make sense. Plus, he claims that they were walking in a tactical column right now, is not exactly sure if you know what that means. But let me draw this out for you.

1:56:54 Speaker 2: Right, So in a tactical column, right, you move in and dispersed pattern like this down the road. Okay, so you're you have about ten feet of separation in a tactical column, or if it's a close column, like five feet between you and the next person. So this person would be like the one man, the point man, the two man, all the way down, and then each person has their own sector of fire that they're like responsible for looking at, so you don't get so like each person has their own little sector of fire.

1:57:33 Speaker 2: I don't know if you can see this. Well, each has their own little sector of fire so that you can't be ambushed. Right. But here's the thing. The space between the one man and the two man is like twenty thirty feet. So one of the things that I put in my notes always is if what he said is true and they're moving in a tactical column, he says that they get ambushed from the side like this, right in an interlocking field of fire. Right, So if they were attacked in an interlocking field of fire, right, even if they were being fired upon, right, this dude's like twenty feet away, even if you didn't have radios, which you would.

1:58:15 Speaker 2: Why doesn't this dude just run twenty feet back, grab the rest of the dudes and come back. Why is he not running away to go grab some other people. Why are these dudes not trying to maneuver around and fight at all? Why did six people in a line walk all together because he claims they were in a line being searched and whatnot? How did this become this? Wow? It just doesn't make any sense. A makes so senseactically.

1:58:46 Speaker 1: Wow?

1:58:47 Speaker 2: And can you put that drawing back up? Can you? Sorry? It's it's like a mess.

1:58:52 Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no, no, no, this is actually there is this is actually good stuff. Now how did they go back to? Like how they got them to the line right? How would they have done this? How many people attack Horrera's squad? You said about eight?

1:59:12 Speaker 2: He he claims it's eight.

1:59:14 Speaker 1: Can you show me on that paper how they attacked or how.

1:59:18 Speaker 2: He claims according to Yeah, okay, yeah, so let me get it different. I love it. So hold on, I want to roll back. Do you want me to play that clip while while Yeah, maybe you should play the play the clip here, Yeah.

1:59:36 Speaker 1: I'll play the clip while you draw this out and kind of get us ready for it to kind of be broken down after the fact. I want this episode to be a kind of I'm not doing no two parts. Like my name is Joey. I know I respect him, I really do. But we're getting this all of this information out now. No, no, no, I want this to be an omnibus and I want people to be able to come here and say, Okay, this is the other side. This is the other side to this story.

2:00:11 Speaker 2: So I think it's at twenty four to twenty five. I have Mark down here. He says he was in a column. And then I in my notes, but a six man element wouldn't move in a column. Right, tactical column, he says, our stagger column would have the rear man at about fifty twenty to fifty meters from the front man. If ambush, the rear man could have retreated. That's what I mentioned, right right.

2:00:35 Speaker 1: And then.

2:00:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's around that time they describe how he was taken down. So if you want to play that part, I will draw both how he claims that they were taken down and like what the actual real tactic would have been. Okay, three, I can't hear it. Can you hear it?

2:01:29 Speaker 8: About of blue on blue situation exactly? Okay?

2:01:34 Speaker 6: So you know what that being said? Because of how smooth this operation was.

2:01:39 Speaker 9: So when we were in a tactical this thing, they actually came from the flanks, but it was more of a diagonal like the corner of the room, so to speak, right for them, and a tactical advantage. They have interlocking fields of fire on every single person and they had a team of eight, right, and the gear that they had was black O TV vest.

2:01:56 Speaker 6: They had black camouflage utilities.

2:01:58 Speaker 8: So what you're saying is there was there have been no mechs. They were professionals. Yeah, it would have been no Mexican standoff or if they fired, they're shooting into their other squad. They had they had perfect angle. Yes, they did to where both sides could engage you.

2:02:11 Speaker 6: Yes, team of four, team of four, so it was like a fire team element.

2:02:14 Speaker 8: Without worrying about a blue on blue situation exactly.

2:02:18 Speaker 9: Okay, So you know, with that being said, because as they as they approached us to hear the safeties flip off.

2:02:27 Speaker 6: Now your attention to detail.

2:02:28 Speaker 9: When you're seeing this kind of stuff, your sensors are very heightened, so you can pick up I know you've been a combat and you know you know all about that. Your heightened sense of awareness is going through astronomical changes.

2:02:39 Speaker 8: To a provigilant.

2:02:40 Speaker 9: Yes, so you can hear stuff a lot clearer, and that's where you kind of picked up the hum that this object was doing along with these guys flipping their safeties off, especially in four's.

2:02:50 Speaker 6: You know, it's very distinct sound.

2:02:51 Speaker 9: Anybody in this room who's held M fours and has shot them in sixteen things like that, it's very distinct sound to flipping it off.

2:02:58 Speaker 6: So we kind of knew, and they started yelling at us, you know, they were like, you know, you're not supposed to fucking be here. What the fuck are you guys doing here? Who the fuck are you with? You know, so they knew.

2:03:07 Speaker 9: They were using the kind of lingo that we were used to, especially in the military. So it made me think that at some point these guys actually were uniform military.

2:03:15 Speaker 6: At one point.

2:03:16 Speaker 9: Any accents, non accents, it's just like American dialects. How you and I are talking very you know, they're At one point they said, we're going to smoke us. They could throw us out of a helicopter.

2:03:26 Speaker 6: They could.

2:03:26 Speaker 9: It's very easy to get lost in the jungle out here, you know. They kept staying stuff like that. So after they enveloped us, they all pretty much got online. They told us to put our weapons, so we all got online as well, and we had our hands up, we had a weapon slung, and they're having two guys watch while there's a guy basically taking our magazines out of our vest and they're throwing them on the deck and they're kicking them away, so we don't have time to react. They also, at the same time, the first thing they did was obviously take our weapon and clear it, but they took the magazine out and they actually held it in a way to where they could pull a charging handle and collect around and have it not at the deck, so they The way that these guys operated was very smooth.

2:04:03 Speaker 6: It's very calculated, very precise.

2:04:05 Speaker 9: You could tell they've done this a lot of They rehearsed a lot, you know, especially combat operations you're doing to ram model rehearsals. You're doing rehearsals, whether you're clearing rooms, trying to figure all that kind of stuff out. These guys kind of did the same thing. I'm assuming because of how smooth it was, and because you know as well as I do, you get you know, you have new guys that join a unit and they're not that fresh. You know, they're very choppy because they're the basic understanding you've either had to stack up and do room clearing, and the guys that've done it and been through combat deployments and all that.

2:04:33 Speaker 9: They're very kind of methodical, very smooth, because you know what to expect. These new guys are not the same thing. You could tell these guys were seasoned, so as they did that. They actually each marine had two guys on them plus one that was taking the stuff off of them. They actually knew where our military ideas were because in Marine Corps order, you have to have them your left prest box.

2:04:54 Speaker 8: Or you were fifteen of these guys, three on each marine.

2:04:57 Speaker 2: No.

2:04:57 Speaker 9: No, So they had other guys right here, and they had three that were just going through each marine while other people were holding each marine that gun. And they're not like they're not like super close to us range wise with you know, because if you get a muzzle close, I mean, it's easy to grab it and you know kind of fend off, especially with a rifle. But these guys were I have to stand off this and said even if you try to move, they could, they could, they could smoke it.

2:05:20 Speaker 8: One search team of three guys, Yes, and then the rest of the squad was aimed in yes. Okay.

2:05:27 Speaker 9: Yeah, So and again you know they're not anywhere where they could actually there was people behind us because obviously, if they had to engage, they're going to hit one of their own guys probably, so it's more.

2:05:40 Speaker 2: Okay.

2:05:40 Speaker 1: So that was Michael describing the way that this paramilitary force got the drop on a seasoned, trained group of Marines. Tim, could you break down the tactileness of this, And again he is saying that these guys American dialect.

2:06:01 Speaker 2: He had a.

2:06:04 Speaker 1: Suspicion that they were, uh, you know previously in either in the military or you know, we're contractors. They were highly skilled operators.

2:06:16 Speaker 2: So that's why I actually wrote down a third scenario because the way he describes them attacking is not how seasoned warfighters would attack composition. But right, so this is the basic right of bring it forward here, This is the basic of what he said happened. He was in a tactical column, right, They were moving down the hill in a line, and then they were engaged by eight dudes. Right now, that number changed. I don't know what it is, but I just went with eight. Eight dudes had, according to him, interlocking fields of fire, right, So that's what these are right here.

2:06:56 Speaker 2: Right. So interlocking means that you have a complete overlap of all fire on an element. Right, So he said that they were moving in this direction, there would be about five feet between each person in like this staggered column, right, and they were fired or could have been fired upon in an interlocking field of fire manner.

2:07:21 Speaker 1: Right, right, so that they weren't shooting that there's no friendly fire capacity.

2:07:26 Speaker 2: Yeah. So essentially in this scenario, he says that they saw these eight guys and surrendered immediately, and then they collapsed their column into a line and they were searched.

2:07:36 Speaker 3: Right.

2:07:37 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. If you're fighting in this battle, as I mentioned before, this guy is way this rear guy is way far away from the element. Even if you didn't have radios, which, as I've claimed a thousand times, they did have radios. Right, this dude could have ran away. You know, I've said it like a million times. You know, this dude could have escaped and went and got all the other marines or when back and grabbed the radio operator and called like every marine in a helicopter in anything, Right, Why would this dude who's twenty feet away and these guys would have to be pretty much sniper If this guy just turning ran, these have to be snipers pretty much to hit him.

2:08:15 Speaker 2: Well, not snipers, that's that's disingenuous, but they would have had the land a pretty accurate shot on him to take him down, all while these guys should be shooting at them right like. So it just that's the scenario, he explained, And it just doesn't really make sense to me right now. What you would want to do in this actual scenario, the way they should have actually been operating, assuming there's still a six man team, right, is you would want to move in a diamond or a wedge pattern through the jungle, right, because even if you're going, even if this is a road right, you're gonna have dense jungle all aroun you.

2:09:00 Speaker 2: So you don't want this super long, drawn out column of people, right, because then you could get spread out and lost in the foliage. Right, So you'd want to move in a diamond, right, That's what these guys are moving in a diamond. But if you're in a six man team like usually you're in a four man team to being a diamond like this, If you're in a six man team, the six man element would get online with the outer rear and move in somewhat of a diamond with wings pattern here or a cross pattern. Right, So then say that they were actually moving in this formation and they were getting interlocking fields of fire from these guys in black.

2:09:44 Speaker 2: Right, all of these guys right here are all online in a line, able to fire forward without hitting anybody and could return fire line to line essentially, Like that's how you would want to engage line the line if.

2:10:02 Speaker 1: You were a if you were a team. Because where Michael claims or Michael says that he saw the craft and started taking pictures right.

2:10:16 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred and fifty meters away. So then.

2:10:20 Speaker 1: Would it make sense to keep moving forward if you're seeing that If you saw that craft, I mean I guess I would probably start moving forward to.

2:10:33 Speaker 2: But does that make sense to keep no, because like if you saw an unknown force. Because one thing that also doesn't make sense why he would surrender is as I told you before, Jamia Islamia, which is a radical AQ offshoot trying to take over Indonesia and make it a Califate. They're operating up in these this area. So like if if we got ambushed by eight dudes, I'm not going to assume that they're Americans Special Forces. I'm going to assume that they're Jemaia Islamia, And why would I ever surrender to radical islam guys who are just gonna cut my head off?

2:11:15 Speaker 2: Anyways, I'd rather go down and hail a gunfire, right than get my head chopped off. After reading the statement about how the West is terrible or whatever, like, we have known enemy combatants in the area. He knew about him. It was in the briefing. Everybody knew that they were in the area. So even if he was loaded for bear, which he isn't, all that all everything we've already talked before. At a base level, you have to assume if you run into anybody with a gun out in the jungle, that they are likely Jamaiya Islamia forces and you wouldn't just surrender to them in any way, shape or form.

2:11:58 Speaker 1: Right.

2:11:58 Speaker 2: But see, I also have this third scenario right, which I thought of as us listening to that. Right, So if these guys were actually trained special forces guys, right, the guys in black, they would want to attack in an L shape pattern on a column. Right, Yeah, you wouldn't have interlocking fields of fire like this, right, because if you have interlocking fields of fire just from one direction, the enemy can maneuver side to side. It's kind of like football, you know, like you can run out the pocket.

2:12:34 Speaker 2: Okay, So if they saw this column of marines walking down the road towards their UFO, they would not want to get online and shoot and risk a line to line shootout. What you would do is you'd move an element around right and create what's called an L shape ambush right where you can attack from the side and the front and create an entire kill box like this, a fire on the column right. Plus, if one of them the surrender, they would see that they're flanked, and then you would have these guys hold fire on them while these guys went up and searched right.

2:13:14 Speaker 1: Which could explain which could have explained the part where they do get searched. And then they have the rest of the crew.

2:13:22 Speaker 2: The rest, he says, they surrender and get online, which means they would all be in a line like this, they would no longer be in this formation. And then at that point you would want your element to stand in front of them with guns and then you'd have the other element search them from behind. That's our tactics when we search enemy combatants. As you have you kind of box them in and have.

2:13:45 Speaker 1: You ever heard of that? Have you ever heard of that? Stot? Because he there was one detail that was so odd to me, and it was how they use their gun straps to essentially like bind them, like bind them with enough time so they could get away. Have you ever heard of someone ever doing that in any scenario?

2:14:16 Speaker 2: Well no, but technically I just want to be fair to him and his story. He doesn't say that they were bound by their rifle straps. He says that their weapons were slung over them, strapped and tightened down so that they couldn't reach their weapons and like pull it over to re engage them. Right now, if I was that, if I was a shadowy force, right would have taken their weapons, but that's just me. Or I would have taken their magazines and their camera. But these are just the worst trained special forces fucking guys on the planet.

2:14:58 Speaker 2: So they decide to sling the right back over them. But see, all the rifles that we are, all the slings that we had at the time were what's called a three point sling, right, so it'd be like your weapon is right here, and then like this is your weapon, right, it would be slung one point here, it would go to another point there and then slung to another part here, and you would kind of like work your arm, sorry, you would kind of like it would it made like a little triangle three points of contact on your rifle, right, and you would slip this part through and then carry it like this right, right, you have your weapons slung like that, right.

2:15:45 Speaker 2: Well, what's really hard about the three point sling is they would have had to like they would have had to totally take in the sling and adjust the straps out to put it over them and then red just then. Yeah, and that's a lot of time. So especially if you're in a high scenario like so, say you got we're gonna assume Herrera's teams like on a line like this, right, and say you have your guys here covering them with pistols or with weapons. Right, you're in a high pressure scenario because you're standing behind them.

2:16:26 Speaker 2: What you would do is you would stand behind them and you would pat them down by like reaching over them and like reaching into their magazines or whatever. That way, if say Herrera feels froggy and throws an elbow at you, this guy could shoot you without you being in the way. Right, right, So it's just a lot of So it's a lot of time though that you're exposing yourself and you're risking yourself by reaching over this person and being in the line of fire from your own guy. So like, why would you waste the time?

2:17:00 Speaker 2: I'm to perfectly undo the sling, put the sling over, reslap the sling, like if you're trying to disarm these guys, and get the fuck out of here, because your whole mission is blown. I mean, honestly, I would have killed them. But say you didn't want to kill them, like you wouldn't just be fucking with that shit. You just take all their magazines, unload their weapons, and walk the hell away. Well, then what's the worst they can do is hit you with a rifle.

2:17:29 Speaker 1: Like right right, like literally but but like like as a weapon, like a blunt weapon, not like a.

2:17:38 Speaker 2: But okay, but then, like some of the other notes I have here, right is like, uh, you know, he says that they got their weapons re slung back on them and then they So I ran a little test with my one of my troops, right, and so you know, I volunteer my time running like PTSD and other like veterans support groups.

2:18:05 Speaker 1: So one of them, you're just like Sam Wilson, good all sat I.

2:18:12 Speaker 2: Guess, but we took my ar fifteen and slung it like that and right with a buddy, with my buddy loosening it for me, I was able to unsling my rifle in like four seconds. So even if all this happened, and then those guys told them to walk off, why didn't they walk off and then everybody helps take their rifles off and re engage. If they didn't take their magazine, at that point, you've already been assaulted. They've committed a war crime againstsets. Yeah, So why wouldn't you just like go over the hill, send one guy as a runner to grab everybody else, pull your rifles off, and run back and try to engage.

2:18:54 Speaker 2: Because he says that those eight to fifteen guys who took them down, they stayed while the UFO took off. So that's eight to fifteen intel not intel ascid. What I mean is like possible sources of information and enemy combatants still in the area. Why would you not try to affect any kind of fire, any kind of mission, try to call a helicopter and tell him to get eyes on these dudes. You just walked off with your rifle with your legs tail between your fucking legs, as a trained marine infantryman and walked off and let your rifle hang on your side.

2:19:31 Speaker 2: And then he claims that he left his rifle slung retardedly on his back for so long that he walked three hundred meters back and got chewed out by a higher command person for having his rifle slung like that. So there's just so much time and space between when this happened, when he could have unslung his rifle and not get chewed out about it, or went for help, or used the radio or turned around and re engage. Right, But they didn't take their magazines, they had a radio, one of them would have had their black gear, right, because think about it, why would why would you send them to do an overwatch of your position without a radio?

2:20:14 Speaker 2: Okay, Like, how would you be able to call them and say, hey, we're getting overrun here, I need help, you know, overwatch us if you have no communication with them, or how are they going to unload the helicopter? How are we in the helicopter? Me myself on the radio calling them every single mission that I did. I called them and said, hey, we're five minutes out, get ready clear the area. If they don't have a radio, how am I calling them?

2:20:40 Speaker 1: That column would have been there as essential as a.

2:20:45 Speaker 2: Weapon, more essential than a weapon, right. It allows you to.

2:20:50 Speaker 1: To communicate with the larger the larger team. And also you know these again, it is a it is something. That's why I wanted to stress that. That's something that I could never wrap my head around, is the no comms detail, because again I couldn't see any circumstance that they would have walked into the jungle with no comms, especially especially in the situation they were. You guys actually were in right, I mean, yeah, that's that was the for me. That was one of the harder things to get.

2:21:28 Speaker 2: My head to to to to not harp on.

2:21:34 Speaker 1: So and and and yeah, a marine not giving any fight, immediately giving up.

2:21:44 Speaker 2: Was not even trying to escape either, Like, yes, they tell you run away from battle if you have to. Like the things that you do when you meet the enemy is an acronym called like you know, draw d like defend, reinforce, you know, attack with draw or del lay right, so like it's not against the U sum jada withdraw or try to have one guy escape, Like that's what I would have done. For sure, I would lay I would have laid down my life if I had to laying down fire so one of my guys could escape, if we didn't have a radio, if you felt your life was actually threatened and in.

2:22:23 Speaker 1: Danger, and in this circumstance that Herrera lays out, I mean, they're they're actively saying, we are going to smoke you, which is military lingo, and you know.

2:22:37 Speaker 2: Agree, most like smoke is used as lingo of like, hey, we're gonna work you out, like we used to have smoke sessions where we would have like you know, remedial pete stuff like smoke is not really how we would describe somebody like kill you. I'm gonna saying, hey, I'm going to smoke you to a marine means I'm about to force you. Did you push ups until you puke? Like right? Right?

2:23:03 Speaker 1: So that's actually a really good that's actually a really good point. But Okay, so they're they're saying, but they are actively saying again allegedly, they're actively saying that death is on the table, and it's actually likely that yeah, that you know, and and it until it becomes you know, kind of a parent that that they're gonna let them go. But Harrera does maintain throughout the whole thing that he did not think that he was going to live, uh through this. So if you think you're gonna die, why not if they're searching you like that, why not sling one of them over, have one of their guys fire in the confusion you you used him as a shield.

2:23:48 Speaker 1: Like there's there are things like if you're if you're gonna die anyway, like you said, kind of like, well, I'm not gonna die like a dog, I'm gonna die like a marine.

2:23:59 Speaker 2: Well. Plus, you know, another thing that's not really talked a lot about is like and this goes out to my vets that like understand like combat scenarios right, like,

2:24:11 Speaker 2: say you're moving down the road right and then you see random guys up here with guns right dating identify themselves. You don't know who the fuck they are, so immediately, like Sean Ryan said, there should have been like a Mexican standoff. You should have yelled, hey, contact front, and then everybody gets their weapons up and face towards the front. Right now, everyone's Yeah, at a minimum, you should have had your weapon up if they weren't directly in front of you, not behind you or flanking you like I had showed before.

2:24:46 Speaker 2: If they're directly in front of you, why are you not pointing your weapon up at them and being like, hey, who the fuck are you? Identify yourself right and they're like, oh, hey, you know, we're whoever you know? Like, because once again, how do you not know it's Jemia Islamia? How do you not know it's radical Islamic fighters coming to attack you? The person fucking know you would put your weap in a yeah, the security threats that we were briefed on, or how do we not know it's like Indonesian military working, Because then you just put your weapon up and then you'd be like, hey, who are you and they would be like, hey, we're other Marines or we're Indonesian army or something, and they'd be like okay, cool and put your weapon down.

2:25:31 Speaker 2: You wouldn't just be like, oh, no, there's a random person here, let me throw my hands up because they look like they're slightly in a position where they could fire on us, Like that's yeah, I get it.

2:25:42 Speaker 1: I get it.

2:25:42 Speaker 2: I get it. It just it does that that part is that that is ah And even if Michael Herrera himself was shell shocked by it and didn't fire immediately, you're telling me all six dudes had the same instinct of surrender immediately.

2:25:58 Speaker 1: Right telepathically like said to each other, Hey, guys, not this time, not not not.

2:26:05 Speaker 2: Today's humans don't operate like that, especially under threat of death. Yeah, yourself know how you operated when under thread of death. You don't know what's going to happen. I mean, you're telling me. None of those guys had an itchy trigger finger and fired. None of them pulled their weapon up, None of them tried to maneuver at all. No one tried to escape, no one tried to right. Yeah, no one said hey, who the fuck are you? They just were like, yeah, like they're just like, hey, there's guys in black here, let's just surrender.

2:26:44 Speaker 2: I don't know who they are.

2:26:46 Speaker 1: Ask you this flip side the Special Forces? Would they have not been briefed, Hey, guys, we have friendlies here, right we U. We might not be working for the United United States right now, but those are our guys essentially, Well.

2:27:07 Speaker 2: According to him, they have command and control through shadowy forces of the entire military, the admiral that caused him to do an NBA, the colonel he met back in all this, they would have knowledge of the operation.

2:27:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, why was why did this even happen? If the shadowy force is in control? How did a group of marines accidentally get the drop on them, so to say, enough for them to turn it around? And then it becomes a gun you know, guns drawn situation, such an elite force, and.

2:27:44 Speaker 2: We're on the radio calling out where LZ's are at night because I told you we didn't operate during at night. We did all the mission planning for where our LZ's were going to be. So why didn't one of their little spies on the ship say, hey, they're going to be at one, two three on this grid. Put the UFO on the other side of the fucking island so no friendlies can fucking see it.

2:28:08 Speaker 1: Right, there's no possibility. If they're that elite, they would know that. Not only as do we have a platoon of marines doing aid here.

2:28:16 Speaker 2: But you know we have helicopters, helicopters, command and control on the ship. Don't forget the ship has a full Every ship has like a full electronic warfare package with radars and light ar And I don't sorry, that wasn't my job. I was in the infantry. I don't know all these like computer systems.

2:28:38 Speaker 6: But.

2:28:41 Speaker 2: They would have full command and control both comms wise and everything like of that whole battle space. If they're flying million dollar machines helicopters in the air, you think they're gonna fly out there and they have no control over the air space. They have no control over who's going in and out right, there's no radars looking for things. And I mean, I know it's all gonna be explained to way Well, Tim, it's a fucking UFO. They would raider. It fucking can fly and go in the water and whatever the fuck.

2:29:16 Speaker 2: And I'm like cool, I mean, that's that's great if it has that capability. I wish I had that capability when I was, you know, doing ship. But at that point that just becomes a trump card of like, well this definitely happened because has thousands of fucking capabilities that it's a mcguffin are unknown.

2:29:36 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a it's like Superman, right, and you or you can't insert him into every story because it would be over in three seconds.

2:29:45 Speaker 2: Right, It's it's the it's the mcguffin.

2:29:48 Speaker 1: And again I would have thought that this tactile, you know whatever whatever force, this paramilitary force. At the end of the day, again, they're agents. May not be to the United States specifically, but they're not. I'm assuming they don't want to. They don't wake up going I want to kill an American marine today, right, or I don't want to threaten an American marine.

2:30:13 Speaker 2: Today, not if we don't have to. So, if I have.

2:30:17 Speaker 1: Uh a full situational operational control over this this island, with this natural disaster that I'm using as cover to traffic certain underprivileged humans, I'm going to be tapped into your comms so I know everything you guys are doing. That way, you'd never see me, right, I'm gonna know.

2:30:42 Speaker 2: Where you know the the you guys are Special Forces, right, yeah? In Special Forces training in Q course, you know, they're literally trained to operate behind the scenes, like literally the Robin thing where they do their final training and they like infiltrate a US town and like start recruiting people or whatever. These dudes are fucking ghosts. They could take their ghosts. They could have just went into the jungle. They could have just walked fifty feet into the jungle and laid down and Michael Herrara and then would have never fucking saw them.

2:31:18 Speaker 1: They might have saw the craft, but no one's gonna believe them. Yeah, you might've got a good look at the craft, but we'll take care.

2:31:26 Speaker 2: Why would you even like, that's what doesn't even make sense to me. Why would you even risk if they were armed, like he says, their arm which they were not. I just want to make it very clear so that nobody says my story is inconsistent. They did not have rifles, saws, none of that on.

2:31:42 Speaker 1: Them because of what they when touched down.

2:31:48 Speaker 2: So that aside trying to give credence to his story in their story. If they're armed, for fucking bear right, like full battle rattle, got their armor and everything, why would you even risk and engagement with six marines? You know their marines, you know their infantry. That's probably the hardest it.

2:32:09 Speaker 4: Like.

2:32:10 Speaker 2: Individual you could fight on this planet, Why would you pick a fight? I would not want you just lie down in the jungle and watch them walk away.

2:32:19 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, make and if the UFO can fucking disappear. Make it disappear for a minute. Let these marines walk by. We don't want to We don't want to engage them. Those are trained fighters, that's not the jungle dwelling radicals that you know. If we see them, we'll we'll just kill them. Don't worry about that. Oh yeah, yeah, we'll literally just kill them.

2:32:43 Speaker 2: Don't worry.

2:32:43 Speaker 1: But we don't want to engage the Marines. They know what they're doing. We don't want them to see us. We're tapped into their coms, we know their every move. We'll make sure they don't see us. Oh shit, we fucked up all right, camouflage that. Let's all drop down like you said, drop.

2:33:00 Speaker 2: Down Like the minute on the radio, they're like, hey, Herrera, go to an op three hundred meters away. They would have been able to look at the map and go, oh ship, we're three hundred meters away. Let's get the fuck out of here. Let's use this UFO that we have and get out of dodge.

2:33:18 Speaker 1: So I okay, I mean you present a very compelling case, very very compelling. Have you ever as a as a kind of switching gears here? I want it because I do want people to know who you are all the other ship aside. Have you ever seen a UFO? Have you ever seen anything you couldn't explain.

2:33:49 Speaker 2: Personally? I that's okay if you say that I have not, No, I I haven't. I mean obviously, you know, in my career, I've wandered around and I've seen some things in the sky lights and whatnot, but I don't I personally don't have any experience with UFO stuff. I mean I've heard stories, you know, Like obviously I've learned a lot about the UAP community since starting this journey of you know, trying to speak out about this, Like I've watched a lot of videos, but I have not seen Okay, Well that's that's that's why this that's why this story I believe is false.

2:34:39 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think there's so many different ways that I would have seen this craft on that operation if it operated in the manner that he claimed.

2:34:51 Speaker 1: Okay, Uh, Are you open to the idea that the world is not black and white?

2:35:01 Speaker 2: Absolutely? I mean I my kind of thought. And I told Joey this is like, if aliens are real, that's cool. If they want to fight, I'll fight. If they want to have a beer, I'll have a beer with aliens. Like, I'm kind of chill about it. It really outside of my experience with Yeah, absolutely, I mean if they if that's what they wanted to, like, I would love to meet Intef and stuff. I bet they got bombed, Bud.

2:35:35 Speaker 1: I actually have a picture in a frame over here where it's an alien. It says, uh, instead of taking me to your leader, it says it's a gray, gray alien with the joint and it's like, take me to your dealer. It's one of my favorite I had to frame it. Can you see it?

2:35:52 Speaker 3: No?

2:35:53 Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, I can see it?

2:36:03 Speaker 2: Nice the m hm anyway, Yeah, I mean fun fun. I'm not against it by any means. I just I know what I don't know, and all I know is about the specific operation and.

2:36:34 Speaker 1: What do you make of because but inherently, and I don't know if you know this, but inherently, if your contradiction or if you're if what you're saying, Michael Herrera is not just the only one Jake Barber then kind of like confirms a story in a weird way invalidates it. Do you believe that that that there are teams of crash retrieval, like like teams of people that are special operators that work for you know, Northump, Crumb and Lockeed. They're ex special Forces most of the time. Do you know, have you seen evidence for or you know, would you expect something like that to be real, some sort of crash retrieval if UFOs exist.

2:37:34 Speaker 2: Going on that side, and it could be like honestly, like the game X Calm, that makes the most sense to me that, like, you know, there are people that recover UFOs and whatnot, But I can't confirm any of that right And but I will say this, you know, all of these guys are supposedly former special operators and I when I transitioned to the Army, I spent time with the Rangers, you know, I did a bunch of training in specialized capacities. And I don't know where they're recruiting these people from. But nobody ever offered anything like that to me.

2:38:15 Speaker 2: And I mean they'll probably say it's it's veterans, you know, getting offered these, But I'm super connected with the veteran world. I mean I worked at VAED for a little while when I was in school, so I worked with veterans going to school. I work with veterans now, like as a peer support specialist. So I've talked to hundreds of veterans, thousands of veterans. I'm active in my BFW down the street, like veterans of all stripes. And I've never seen anybody like saying, hey, I got this offer to go, like you know, you know, be a part of this situation.

2:38:58 Speaker 2: I mean, actually, my good friend, the one that was trying to pick up the couch, he worked at Northrop for a while. He uh because he worked on the F thirty five. He's an F thirty five mechanic in the Marines, and I mean he just, you know, he didn't tell me anything crazy about what's going on there. He just said it was doing mechanic work.

2:39:20 Speaker 1: Like, okay, fair enough for So.

2:39:23 Speaker 2: I mean, I've never heard it, and I'm willing to

2:39:28 Speaker 2: believe it could happen. It could not happen. So you're like,

2:39:34 Speaker 2: I'm not against it, And you know what I've tried to make clear about this whole thing is like I'm not against anything to do with UFOs or people or whatever. My specific gripe, my specific lane is Michael Herrera and trying to discredit him. That's okay, what I.

2:39:57 Speaker 1: Meant trying to discredit him? That that sounds a little So discredit would mean that you're you're out here with the soul intent to do what you need to do to discredit.

2:40:14 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know what. I don't know what other word, what other word would.

2:40:18 Speaker 1: Work, because that sounds I would be careful saying that, because that sounds like someone sent you to discredit him. That's how it's used usually, right, So you're you're you're just saying that, hey, I was there. This isn't logically possible that this happened.

2:40:36 Speaker 2: Yes, all I'm trying to say is that this story did not happen. Now, I don't know if discredits the word for that. Maybe there's a different word. I'm trying to say that what Michael Herrera says he experienced, he did not. It didn't happen. That's it. I have nothing to do with any other UFO related stuff.

2:41:01 Speaker 6: I don't.

2:41:03 Speaker 2: I don't have anything else to do deny or confirm or anything about anything. I know about one thing, and that's Michael Herrera and what he did that day, and what I did that day, and what Booth and Labraham and Mendez and Williams and everybody else who was there did Okay, that's all I know.

2:41:26 Speaker 1: When you get to the Pearly Gates, if you do go there, I don't know what you're I don't know which which way you're headed. I don't That's that's between you and you and the creator. But when you get there, like, do you swear that this is the truth according to you?

2:41:47 Speaker 2: I swear okay. I don't mean. I don't have any incentive to lie or manipulate or whatever. You're not paying me to be here, yeah, I'm not. I volunteer to be here. Joey didn't pay me. No one's paid me. I'm not anybody's payroll. Like fine with anybody investigating me about anything. I'm pretty much an open book. I'm not trying to obscure anything about my life.

2:42:17 Speaker 1: Or did you find it odd that Joey didn't release the second part yet? I find it a lot not gonna lie.

2:42:26 Speaker 2: Well, he did after he dropped the first video. He had messaged me on Twitter. Hey, I'm sorry I didn't get the second part out yet. I'm gonna get it out in like a week. But he's a guy who invested a lot of.

2:42:45 Speaker 1: He he is a big proponent of this case, Like like Herrera and him are tight if I'm not mistaken, Like.

2:42:54 Speaker 2: Yeah, he definitely in that interview, especially in the second part, really tried to discredit me. Essentially, he pulled up a nicture of like a admiral that was on a ship around that time and was like, here's a picture of this admiral, Like, how can you say there was no admiral there? Like, obviously this is an admiral, is it not. And I was like, well, yeah, that's an admiral, but like it doesn't say where he is. I didn't say in the picture Uss Denver anywhere this picture of fucking admiral like around the same time, supposedly according to him.

2:43:36 Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't picture. He just said he pulled that offline.

2:43:43 Speaker 1: That's that's not a source.

2:43:45 Speaker 2: That's a.

2:43:47 Speaker 1: Okay, that's that's odd.

2:43:48 Speaker 2: But I mean, all I'm trying to say, like I'm not trying to bash him at all. You know, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him. He was the first person to really platform me, if you will, So I mean, I don't want to talk bad about the guy, but just what you were saying about his somewhat bias. He definitely was trying to come down on me, essentially, and he didn't want to hear a lot about these details. He didn't want to read the document that I had sent you. He never let me explain anything about the tactics or whatever.

2:44:24 Speaker 2: He just said, well, you you claim that you were like in a helicopter, so how could you know the tactics or whatever? Like I'm like, okay, I was just trained like you were.

2:44:36 Speaker 1: You were as trained, if not more than Michael.

2:44:39 Speaker 2: Correct because of your I served alongside him, Like you know what I mean, Like the same training he has. I have the same work up that we did, the same thing that we did. I'm so close to Michael. I carried his naked body out of the jungle after he had a heat stroke. Like I couldn't even tell that story to Joe Aiden, Like wait a second, wait a second, tell me more.

2:45:07 Speaker 1: Okay, so we are we're in the weeds here, but yeah, but let's round it out with this. What the fuck are you talking about?

2:45:17 Speaker 2: Naked junk the bodies I theorized to some of my friends as a joke that Herrera must have saw these aliens because his brain got cooked in this heat stroke issue, so about two weeks. And this also explains. This also explains why he was not in a leadership position. In the Sean Ryan Show, he said he was leading this team. He actually reprimanded. When does he say that, let me find the time, stampede.

2:45:52 Speaker 1: I want to play that quick. I want to hear this.

2:46:00 Speaker 1: I again, I will never And while he's doing that, scoo. But I I have a thing.

2:46:08 Speaker 2: I have a respect thing. I will.

2:46:09 Speaker 1: I can't ask a question like that.

2:46:11 Speaker 2: I will.

2:46:12 Speaker 1: I'll never ask any any military veteran how many people they may or may have not killed. It's not respect not respectable for me. I'm sorry, it's not personal. It's I mean, it is personal to me. Like I you just don't go there, not unless they offer it.

2:46:35 Speaker 2: I mean there's a time and a place for that. I but that's not mine here. But yeah, so it's towards the front of the video.

2:46:46 Speaker 1: As nothing personally towards the front.

2:46:52 Speaker 2: I think it's around. I think it's around. I think it's around fourteen minute mark. Well, I had damn these ads. I just built a buttoning app and based forty four.

2:47:06 Speaker 1: Guys, may it just built an APP impossible. That's why I muted it. You don't have to hear the ad that I have to hear.

2:47:23 Speaker 2: It's still muted the.

2:47:26 Speaker 9: Pictures of that. And I had, you know, I stuck it in my dump pouch. You know, I was a sawgunner naturally, you know, so I had them two forty nine. That was my favorite weapon. I liked having a belt fed machine gun as much as a pain in the ass. I liked having APP compared to them sixteen or four. So because we're a humanitarian, all they did was give us a M sixteen A fours. You know, they had RCOs at that time. They want the A cogs. They had the mills on the size for windage and stuff like that, as well as the PET fifteens.

2:47:54 Speaker 9: You know, so if we're doing any kind of night range or night operation, we'd have those with our PBS four teens. So it's just a very basic loadout that we were doing, you know, nothing really crazy. And when we saw this happen saw this and I want to say unidentified because right now it's identified.

2:48:13 Speaker 6: Everybody knows what they are now.

2:48:14 Speaker 9: They're either a man made or they're not, and if they're not, the government's coming out and telling people admitting it, not directly, but they're still admitting it to a degree that it exists. Because why would they spend time with this legislation coming out. Why would they do that if it's if it doesn't exist? Why were they going through these measures to basically hold a gun up to these guys heads and say you better relinquish this technology or else.

2:48:35 Speaker 6: They're not just doing it, but the fact that all of us coming.

2:48:38 Speaker 9: Together and making this loud amount of in any kind of setting like that, whether you're a skiff, it's all under oaths detection.

2:48:44 Speaker 6: It's just something that I'm very thankful for. I'm very thankful that God damn it all right?

2:48:49 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, wrong spot, but that's all right.

2:48:55 Speaker 1: But so he said he was leading the team.

2:48:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, he claims that he was eating the team, right because at time points where he says that they were going to surrender, he says that I told my guys to stand down and surrender. So if you're not in charge, why would you tell your guys to stand down and surrender?

2:49:16 Speaker 7: Right?

2:49:16 Speaker 1: And call them your guys like that and call them Yeah, that's definitely, like a I was the leader of this squad, if you will, So what what do you what happened?

2:49:28 Speaker 2: What happened? This story ties into why he was not in a leadership position. So two weeks before we loaded on the boats and headed to the Philippines, we were doing some work up training while we're in Okinawa at Jungle Warfare Training Center. Right, So while we were there training out in the jungle.

2:49:50 Speaker 1: So you were jungle training too before this, yeah, and then you went to the jungle. Yes, so you were fucking right actually prepared to do this correct. Oh god.

2:50:05 Speaker 2: Actually one of the pictures I have but didn't send was us that day on the jungle. In the jungle. I could try to pull it up.

2:50:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a present but there's a present button if you want to while you tell that.

2:50:19 Speaker 2: Well, it's it's it's on my yeah, no, let me see if I can find it. But anyway, okay, So the story is we're doing this uh training out in the jungle, the jungle and the jungle of Okinawa. No, I don't have it, and this is what you call this is a work up. Yeah. So essentially like the thing is in the infantry, right, because of your job is just to kill people with guns. Right, You're not a mechanic or a paper push or whatever. Essentially, you spend your whole life either training or out in the field, like doing missions, Like either training out in the field or doing missions out in the field, Like you don't really have a job other than that.

2:51:11 Speaker 2: So we were doing jungle training for two weeks until the boat showed up for us to load up on the boats and go do these operations. So while we're in the jungle, I'm with second Platoon, I have my machine gun and we're hiking through the jungle trip a canopy jungle. It was like one hundred degrees that day and it was like full humidity. Right, we were dying carrying that shit.

2:51:38 Speaker 3: Right.

2:51:38 Speaker 2: So we had this commander, right, our platoon commander was this like super arrogant dude who played football with Aaron Rodgers at cal or something and like that was his life achievement that he always told everybody, Yeah, I played football in like the NFL and shit. So anyways, that guy would always have Second Platoon do the hardest roots, the hardest training ops, the hardest anything, because he was like, I'm the hardest ever so my men are gonna be the hardest ever, right, right, So we took this path through the jungle like where we had to keep machetting stuff down.

2:52:18 Speaker 2: It's super hot all of the other So essentially what we're doing is we're going out as platoons and setting up like a camp area, which is like a defense area, right, and that's where we're going to camp for the night. So he took the furthest one out on the hardest road or whatever. So we're on this like death death march, right, it's crazy. And during this death march, Herrera is actually directly in front of me, right, So we're moving through a column. Like I showed you, I'm the guy staggered immediately off of Herrera.

2:52:52 Speaker 2: So we're hiking up and then we kind of dip down into this kind of rocky ravine and we decide that we're gonna take a break for a second and get water and like sit down and figure out where we need to go. So I'm sitting down. Herrera's right next to me, right in front of me in the column, sitting down on his pack. And as as we're sitting there, I see him start to stagger like this kind of like stagger and then he just collapses over. And what it turned out, is what we were told later, is that he had taken a bunch of pre workout Because I told you he was a gym rap.

2:53:33 Speaker 2: Me and him used to go in the gym all the time. He took a bunch of like pre workout, like C four or something before we went out on this hike, and it like totally dehydrated him to fuck. So then he had a heat stroke and he collapses right in front of me. So I run and grabbed the medic and we run back, strip off all his clothes, start pouring water. I had to pour all my water that I had on me, So I'm about to become super dehydrated. That's all I remember from that day. But we're pouring water on him, and then the medic is like, hey, we got to get Herrera out of here.

2:54:08 Speaker 2: He's so at this point, he's totally naked, he's completely passed out with a heat stroke, and we got to get him out of here. So me, the medic staff, Sergeant Nelson, and I can't remember who the last guy was. We had to actually use one of those like man portable carrying it like sled things with Herrera in the middle of it and carry him two miles naked and passed out from heat stroke through the jungle and out to a main road so that an ambulance can pick him up. And then he spent like a couple of nights in the hospital or where.

2:54:50 Speaker 2: I don't know how much time he spent in the hospital because of that, but he never came back to the training day and we were out there for like two three more days. So I always joke that he must have damaged his brain and seen a bunch of aliens or whatever. But well, yeah, he didn't see aliens.

2:55:09 Speaker 1: But which makes the story a bit more grounded because the implication of what he's saying is that we got this technology from somewhere, right, So it fits with the non human intelligence narrative because you know, people people when they see a craft like that, they go, okay, we're flying it. But we have these crash retrieval teams with reverse engineered the technology from non human intelligence. So you know, even with him not saying or seeing aliens, the the subtext is there.

2:55:51 Speaker 2: If but yeah, like, but what I mean by that is because we had to shut down the whole operation and take him out of there. He got a reprimand and an Article fifteen or whatever for essentially having to shut down the whole operation and us having to pull him out of the jungle. So that is definiteve Well, yeah, I mean we almost had a casualty on what's a training mission because of his own decisions to hydrate properly and take a bunch of pre workout before going out into a triple canopy jungle. So they had written him up for it.

2:56:32 Speaker 2: And if you get written up, you're not leading six man teams on solo training op ops. Like, So what I'm saying is he was the lowest man on the totem poll, right, So when he says I was leading my team, I was taking them out into the jungle. I told them to stand down. He was not in a leadership position at all. Because of this incident that happened like two three weeks prior. He was demoted from his position because of his actions.

2:57:08 Speaker 1: Wouldn't wouldn't that also, like would some of that be taken out on the team, Like, hey, guys, you fucked up, Like you know one, I know it's Michael that fucked up, But as a team. Are you reprimanded?

2:57:28 Speaker 2: I mean you would agree, like the whole platoon and our patoon commander got chewed the hell out by the company commander for having a casualty and having like like we had to shut down that whole training day. We lost entire day of training. They tried to fly heloing to get him, they couldn't do it because the jungle was too thick, so then he had to like we had to carry him out, and then it actually started this whole like international incident where they had to like hijack a truck from the Japanese to try to get him to the hospital.

2:58:00 Speaker 2: Like it was a whole it was a whole, big scenario, right, So a lot of people got in trouble for this scenario, but Michael Herrera the most because it was his decision not to take care of himself properly and put us all in this position. So there's no way they would have put him in a leadership position in the platoon right to be commanding these people, right, kind of.

2:58:26 Speaker 1: Sounds like Michael meant have been a bad marine.

2:58:30 Speaker 2: He was a terrible marine. I'm not I mean, I don't mean to knock the guy but he went a wall. He missed a whole deployment, right, and then he was the lowest level guy, and then he was kind of an outcast dude. So those guys usually don't get along well. The guy spent a lot of time alone. Everybody kind of thought he was there's something weird about him. Which is funny because when I first learned about this video, I was like, Michael Herrera's out here doing this about like talking about UFOs or whatever, and I was like that kind of track, Like it didn't surprise me given the amount of character.

2:59:05 Speaker 1: That he was.

2:59:07 Speaker 2: I mean, this is not like a well beloved individual in the unit. Yeah, he wasn't winning any popularity contests. You know. He always was kind of a weird dude, right, So yeah, and again I found out about this, It really didn't shock me at all.

2:59:26 Speaker 1: Like I do bring this up for context because I think it is he even admitted some of that that he was like kind of like a loaner, like you know, he always kind of grabbed so but again and he again he admitted to me that he was a bad marine, Like at some points he was a bad marine. I think over his career or his couple, you know, his his contract. I think he ultimately looks back on it as he did a good thing. But you know then that's not my decision to make. Again, you know, I I I didn't serve you know, I know how you know stressful that probably or you know is uh on your body like mentally, physically and all of that.

3:00:18 Speaker 1: So much I have respect for anyone who does it. But you know, with with again, just you know, we put these whistleblowers quote unquote, we put their we we give them passes on some of like because there's this that this saying, right, uh, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I never really liked that saying because I think proof is proof. It doesn't have to be extraordinary to prove something extraordinary. Proof is proof, and and testimony, whether we like it or not, can convict someone of murder.

3:01:01 Speaker 1: Right, So, whether you're a psychological psychologist wants to tell you that it's the least least valuable asset, again, I'm not of that same mind that same psychologists can't tell me what consciousness is. So get fucked right, get fucked all due respect, But but it does bring in a lot of questions, and it brings in a lot of a lot of a lot of things like what was his mental state, you know, did he feel like he got robbed in the military of a of a like the hero's journey, So this is him kind of playing that out.

3:01:47 Speaker 2: Now, I don't that's what I always thought. That's what I always thought, right.

3:01:53 Speaker 1: Right, like, and that's where you the stolen valor thing comes in. It's because it's like your career, really, if that's what you're saying. But again, I'm just I'm an observer here, so I'm just bringing it up. But what you're saying is he didn't have that career. You know, it wasn't as glorious or or it wasn't like the movies. So this is him kind of maybe playing out that.

3:02:17 Speaker 2: Heroic like I was in the circle. I think about it. Why has he never identified anybody that was on his team? He says it's to protect him and protect them or whatnot. But he's never dropped any names. I can drop names. Other people have dropped names. Nathan has dropped names like you know, yeah, and it's just like, you know, just in the fact that he's like, I'm the only one who's gonna stand up, and I'm they can kill me because I don't have a family and my other guys do, so like I'm gonna like even that is kind of like that whole like, yeah, I'm a hero because like I'm the only dude out of these people to like stand up and talk about it.

3:02:57 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that there was any possible that maybe Michael was used by the vice this, like say, the shadow force does exist. Could he have been used to muddy the waters for something that was gonna come later on? Do you think there's any like that, you know, like mk Ultra, like, do you think these memories could have been implanted in him? Like do you think that is also maybe a possibility.

3:03:28 Speaker 2: Well, I'll say no, Like this is just my thoughts, just my speculation. I'm gonna put that disclaimer out there, right, Is he a victim as well? I think he is now right, And what I mean by that is so essentially in my research of this whole case or whatever, and other people have mentioned this same exact story that Michael Herra tells happened to him in two thousand and nine, happened to some other guy in Panama in like nineteen ninety five, or whatever, and it's like a direct one to one's why these dudes or whatever?

3:04:04 Speaker 2: But I mean that story has been around since nineteen ninety five or whatever, right, So if I was Herrera and I was like crafting the story, right, So this Indonesian op, there was about thirty marines there that could discredit him. Half of them are dead now, right. The other half thinks this is a joke. Then there's me. Right. So there's not a lot of people that were on that operation that can confirm or deny what happened. There's not a lot of records of that operation because it was this hasty, Hey, we're gonna pick up from the Philippines and go down there.

3:04:40 Speaker 2: On my DD two fourteen, it actually says Operation Ketsana on there, right, which technically Operation Ketsana was the operation we were doing in the Philippines. It's not even recorded in most like military paperwork that this Indonesian operation happened. That's why it's the perfect one to craft into this story right right now, So there's very few people that can discredit him. There's very little paper trail, right, and he was technically there, I mean eighty percent of what he said or seventy percent of what he says is true or maybe fifty I don't know.

3:05:26 Speaker 2: Because he was in Indonesia, he was on the USS Denver. He wasn't second platoon, he was an echo company. Me and him serve together, right, Like all of that is true, there's just this one tiny little extra UFO part that is not true. Fair, right, you know? The best lies.

3:05:49 Speaker 1: That's what you do have to look for in a lie is detail where there shouldn't be because time passes, and like the extra dream detail of the of the of the of the smallest details, but then not not a lot of detail in the large picture. Right.

3:06:11 Speaker 2: That that is something that.

3:06:15 Speaker 1: That's at least one of my tactics to look for. It's someone who's being dishonest. Now, I'm not gonna sit here and say that when I interviewed Michael, I didn't find his story compelling. I did. But the further more I get into it, the more questions I have, the more that can't be answered. And that's where I've come up against the brick wall here. It's not my place to say whether Michael is telling the truth or not.

3:06:45 Speaker 2: See what I meant by him being a victim in this scenario, right, is I think that he heard that other good dude story realized that he could tell a story like that about Indonesia. Nobody could really counter acted. There's very little way to counteract the story. So I think he just went around and kind of told that story. He probably told her the VFW a couple of times, probably, you know, he waffled it around, you know, told this story. You know, it made his service like great or whatever. And then I think these other elements this doctor Greer got Jake Barber, whoever these people are, right, was like, Hey, this guy's somewhat articulate, he's smart, he's got this story.

3:07:33 Speaker 2: Let's like bring him into our circle and organization or whatever. I don't know what the fuck they are, Like, let's be honest, like, let's bring him into our thing, right, and then let's fill in some more details for him. So that now, like because in the Sean Ryan Show, he wasn't pushing the whole it was humans that psionically call fucking UFOs from the ground and blow them up or something whatever. I saw one crazy thing interview that he did talking about that, like, yeah, I think I think all that ship is what they fed him, and then he incorporated into his story and then now they use him to gain more like he used them the game more credibility and flesh out his story, and they're using him to add.

3:08:29 Speaker 1: More pieces to their own narrative. It's it's a win win for both of them, right.

3:08:36 Speaker 2: But I think to a degree, I think he got pulled into this and like he just kind of yeah, I think he just got pulled into this, and now he's just kind of you know, when you're in a shitty scenario, you just go through you just that's real. That's raw, man, that's raw.

3:09:04 Speaker 1: Like that that that's the that's and that's the thing is like I know what we're talking about here with UFOs and all this shit, Like it takes a degree of like suspending your you know, belief systems for a moment, but like we have to understand that they're sometimes these things are not true. Simple they're simply not true, and we have to be open to that. If if we're not, if we're not open to that, then we're no better than the skeptics who start from a this didn't happen perspective, Right, we have to separate ourselves from that.

3:09:47 Speaker 1: So what if you never get another chance to address people, what would you like to say about this case in general and your relationship to it.

3:10:02 Speaker 2: Oh, there's one.

3:10:08 Speaker 1: Message you want to get to people, and you never get another chance to do it, what would that be?

3:10:15 Speaker 2: My message would be, like, I just want to honor the people that were actually there and what we did there, And I mean we continued to do more like we we had great times. You know, we did those other humanitarian operations. Like Honestly, I don't know if Mike ever saw this, bro Like, what you did was enough. Man. You don't need to like make up anything like this to try to exaggerate. You know, we did good work out there. And you know, if I'm wrong, if this happened, I would more than willing, like more than I would be more than willing to talk to any of the troops that I served alongside.

3:10:59 Speaker 2: I consider them all friends and brothers.

3:11:02 Speaker 3: And.

3:11:04 Speaker 2: You know, if they ever want to come to me and talk about it and tell me I'm wrong, I'm more than willing to hear it. But at this point,

3:11:19 Speaker 2: you know, I have seventeen pages on that document, timestamped of every little inconsistency, and we didn't get to go through all of them, because I mean, we're here three hours, eleven minutes right into this, and I could, I could keep talking for another two hours, right of everything that's in this document. But but ultimately, you know, I don't. I have a question, what's up?

3:11:55 Speaker 1: What do you sit across from Michael Herrera?

3:11:59 Speaker 2: And and and absolutely you would, absolutely you would sit whether I have no I have no ill will against Michael her at all. I don't even know if he remembers me at this point. Uh, there's plenty of times that if you look at my ex replies, I've tried to contact him. There was a time I was just posting underneath all his posts, is trying to get any kind of reaction from him or whatever. Like, But I got no ill will for Michael Herrera. I think it's sad that he's doing this personally, Like, I get it, I get what you're saying, you know, but I don't.

3:12:41 Speaker 1: Want to You would say, yeah, absolutely, you would sit in a room camera's rolling, he tells his side, you tell your side.

3:12:50 Speaker 2: You'd be willing to do something like that. Yeah, I have no like, right, I like Michael Herrera or anything.

3:12:59 Speaker 1: Like I know offer so Michael, if you're listening, I will pay for it. I will make it happen. Let's put you to in a room. Then you guys bring your your stories together and and we'll hash this out.

3:13:15 Speaker 2: Tim.

3:13:15 Speaker 1: Do you believe that UFOs exist?

3:13:22 Speaker 2: Sure?

3:13:24 Speaker 4: I do.

3:13:24 Speaker 2: I believe.

3:13:26 Speaker 1: Do you believe I haven't seen a million dollars cash? I know it exists.

3:13:32 Speaker 2: I have seen a UFO in that property, in that property. Yes, I I do believe. I think it's pretty much statistically impossible that we're alone in the universe. In what form that is, or how, or if people are coming this way or not coming this way, or any any of the actual details. I don't know, but logically I think it's I think it would be a logical impossibility to be alone.

3:14:05 Speaker 1: Where God's only creation. Because you know, you understand, by by definition, by definition, an angel or a demon god himself non human intelligence. We're not talking about aliens, right. I don't like that word. I like non human intelligence because it's not human, but it is intelligent by definition, an angel or demon fits that bill. Right. So what our ancestors called gods and monsters are we calling extraterrestrial alien are the interdimensional like you know. I mean, I think these are all possibilities.

3:14:52 Speaker 1: Has our government been in contact with them? You know? I think these these are all layered questions. But if the president came to the podium and said, my fellow America, actually there's just like this rumor right now that some journalists got a hold of Trump's disclosure speech.

3:15:11 Speaker 2: And I hate when they do this, but.

3:15:14 Speaker 1: They said that He's going to address the UN or something on like June eighth and give this speech. Again, we hear all this, and I say this for a reason. We hear all these things in the community, the UFO world, right, and we understand that there's a lot of grifters in this space, people that tell stories for the sake of telling stories to get a book deal. We've been there, We've done that.

3:15:44 Speaker 2: Am I saying Michael's one of those people?

3:15:46 Speaker 1: No, not by any means saying Tim, I mean you believe that.

3:15:51 Speaker 2: Yes, But.

3:15:55 Speaker 1: Again, I'll bring it back, circle it back around. I wouldn't be doing justice to my own integrity if I did not hear you out as well as I heard, you know, just like I heard Michael out. So Tim, thank you so much for doing this. Maybe we will have to do a part two, but I'm hoping that that part too is let's get you to in a room, but maybe you could help me talk to some of the other guys, even if it's off the record. I'm willing to do whatever to chase this down.

3:16:27 Speaker 2: Yeah, like I said, you know, I I can show you some of those combos I had with them, and I can try to reach out to them again. You know, most of it's on Facebook. I don't have a lot of these guys numbers anymore. It's been fifteen twenty years, but I reached out to a lot of these guys on Facebook. That's how I got a hold of Patrick Booth. I guess the Patrick Booth part was in the second part of Joey's videos and Nobby's seen that. But Joey really wanted to get a hold of Patrick Booth because he believed that Patrick Booth was.

3:17:01 Speaker 1: The key to.

3:17:03 Speaker 2: Like settling this whole thing. But what Patrick had told me was like, hey, I didn't see UFO. We were just there drinking coconuts and hanging out with the locals. I don't know why Herrera is saying any of this, but you know, I'm living my life. I don't want to be involved. Because I had reached out to him and tried to say, hey, you should go talk to Joey. You should do it because I mean, there's irrefutable photo proof of him and Michael Horr Are flying out on a stick together. Okay, so like that's something chased down.

3:17:42 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I mean so, but like I said, you know, he he doesn't really want to be involved in this. A lot of those guys don't want to be involved with this. I mean, honestly, you know, one of my closer friends is Jane Williams, who was on my machine gun team at that operation. And when I talked to him, he was like, why are you even doing this? What's the whole point of like like let them say this, Like he was kind of like just let Michael say this crazy shit, you know, like who really is? Well yeah, because he was like, I mean they all think it's a joke, like a two degree I did as well, now as I've gone down this rabbit hole.

3:18:31 Speaker 2: Like you have to understand, a year ago, I didn't know anything. I didn't even know UAP was. I always thought they were called UFOs, like as somebody who was completely out of this community and has now been sucked in. You know, I kind of have an interesting perspective, you could say, like of the community as a whole. Now they haven't been very nice to me, uh right, But actually there's been plenty people to send me messages that were pretty nice.

3:19:04 Speaker 1: So people forget though, people forget that Herrera there was quickly I this just popped it into my head. There was actually a bunch of controversy in the beginning. Herrera's story wasn't really validated to the community until Jake Barber came into it. People were suspect of Michael in the beginning. He was wearing like a Freemason thing during his initial testimony, and people thought that was really odd and like he explained it on my show, why he did it because he's like a Freemason. He's but but he told me he was a whatever the highest like thirty third degree Scottish right Mason.

3:19:56 Speaker 1: It turns out that that's not true. Like I I independently, I don't think I've ever actually said this. I independently verified that that because they have records they I know Masons, I have I know Mason's pretty well, a few of them, pretty well with actual contacts through the chain, and I just put out the feelers like hey, this is like an elusive title to have, like the Scottish right Mason cord like that's like the that's the Freemasons, like you know chapters in the United States, like they're not they don't have the history that the Scottish righte Masons do.

3:20:41 Speaker 1: So like who and he's trying to say that he's a thirty fucking third degree Mason.

3:20:47 Speaker 2: And I'm like whoa wait what or no? So yeah that that was another thing, well, like to kind of swing back to what you had said about like him being a bad marine or whatever. I mean, to a degree, it shows your character, you know what I mean, Like if you're not somebody with a high level of integrity, you would be the person to embellish stories. Yes, you know. Yeah, Like I can't even call his story fully an outright lie because it's not a lot of that happened. He just embellished it a little bit.

3:21:33 Speaker 2: I don't embellish it. I just tell people I flew around Indonesia dropping supplies off and standing in the jungle, like you know what I mean, Like if anybody ever asked me about it. That's what I did. It happened, and that's that's what happened.

3:21:48 Speaker 1: Yeah right, okay, So just again to clarify, you did not see a three hundred foot black uf ON. For you, it would have been a UFO. So you did not see any craft. You did not see any special operators, anything outside of the ordinary on that deployment.

3:22:07 Speaker 2: There was nothing, and nobody else who was on that deployment recalls any of those details. There was no briefings about pilots or the ship or anything seeing anything.

3:22:22 Speaker 6: It was.

3:22:23 Speaker 2: This was literally a run of a mill like four or five day operation that ended with us sailing back to the Philippines.

3:22:34 Speaker 1: Well there it is, guys, Tim, where can people, you know, if they want to reach out to you, where can they do that?

3:22:41 Speaker 2: On X My dms are open. It's ad drunken war dog. I couldn't think of any better handle it. But uh yeah, I mean, anybody can reach out to me, totally available there on X if anybody wants me to talk to them or anything like.

3:23:05 Speaker 7: That.

3:23:06 Speaker 2: Pretty open.

3:23:06 Speaker 1: I love it, and uh you know, I really do want to say. I want to say thank you for your service to the country. Thank you for what you did for what you know, I know, once a marine, always a marine. But you know, thank you, thank you for your career in the military and like you know, allowing for the freedoms that we do have, uh still to this day. So if all else, thank you for that.

3:23:36 Speaker 2: Well. As I said before, I'm extremely grateful that you had me on and that are willing to hear me out. Not many people do so, and you've been a pleasure to work with, talk with, hang out with. So you know, absolutely, and.

3:23:54 Speaker 1: Well let's let's let's, you know, like, let's try to set this up. Let's let's let's let's put it to the fire. And I'd be willing to definitely be a part of something like that. So if I can help it come to fruition, let's fucking go. Everyone who's watching or listening in the future, because this will go on audio platforms, make sure to leave a like, a share, subscribe. You know, if you're listening to our podcast platform, you can rate and review. It really helps. It's all free. It takes you twenty seconds.

3:24:31 Speaker 1: You know, you have your phone in your hand already. There's no excuse that you can't do it. So help a brother out if you want to help out a little bit further, you can send a super chat or become a member, get early access to episodes, not like this which was live, but all the pre recorded stuff that I do. And then as we grow in the membership, I'd like to do some member only stuff. So I already started member only segments which you won't be doing today, but for the in person podcast, I've been doing a member only segment.

3:25:05 Speaker 2: Well, if you want to do a Q and A with a chat, I mean, I'll answer questions like you know, I yeah, it's a it's a long one.

3:25:14 Speaker 1: It's three thirty I hear. So I do have to I do have to hit it. But I wouldn't mind bringing you back. If you do want to do a Q and A as like a special, like a segment.

3:25:27 Speaker 2: I'm more than willing to do it. Okay, text me man.

3:25:30 Speaker 1: All right, we'll set it up. In the meantime. Thank you again. Reach out to some of those folks. Just get their initial reactions or they're like, hey, would you talk to this guy off the record, you know, so he can verify independently verify you know it, you know, just no pressure to do it. I don't want you to go out on a limb for anything, but if if you can't wiggle it in, let's wiggle it in and I'll start working on how we can make something bigger happen.

3:25:59 Speaker 2: Okay, sounds good.

3:26:01 Speaker 1: All right, everyone, see you on the other side. Stay humble, stay kind, stay vigilant. This is dedicated to Marilyn Salas